69. Feeling Nervous? How Anxiety Can Fuel Better Communication

How we approach our

communication

and how we approach others when we are

nervous

about our

communication

can make a tremendous difference in

feeling

confident and conveying that confidence. I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to think fast. speak smart podcast I'm very excited today to be chatting with Kelly McGonagall Kelly is a professor at Stanford GSB who teaches a class on presentation and communication skills for academics. She is also the author of the bestselling The Willpower Instinct, the benefits of stress and her latest book is the joy of movement, how exercise helps us find happiness, hope, connection and courage, welcome Kelly, thank you for being here.

I'm so excited to spend time with you. Oh, thank you because I know we have a lot to talk about. I think we have a lot of passions in common, so let's go ahead and get started. You have many interesting and exciting areas that you can research and explore. I hope to talk about all of them, but I'd like to start where I first met you. Your work is liked by millions of people and I mean 29 million people. I watched your Ted Talk on how to make stress your friend. We've covered the topic of

anxiety

management and communication several times on this podcast and I'm just curious to hear from you and find out how we can manage

anxiety

and take advantage of the benefits it has for our communication, oh, take advantage of the benefits of anxiety for communication. communication, well let me start by saying that I am someone who is born anxious, so I come to this honestly and in a moment. of desperation, right, it's not when those people said, "Oh, I've never been

nervous

and therefore I'll teach other people how not to be nervous." What's more, I know what it's like to have a panic attack, so let's figure out how to stay engaged. with life even when anxiety is a part of your life and I would say that since you said the benefit of it.

I think for me what I've come to value about anxiety is that it's a sign that I care, so you know, for example, when I start to feel anxious now. I tell myself my heart is in it, which is kind of a reset of my mindset. You know, I can feel my heart pounding maybe or I feel other things happening in my body and I say my heart is in it. a way to accept that one of the reasons I have anxiety is not because my nervous system is broken or because I am a person who simply cannot cope with life.

I have anxiety in important moments when I recognize that something is at stake. and I want to contribute or I want to do the best I can I want to serve I want to enjoy life when you come to appreciate that anxiety is often a sign of meaning or a sign of interest then the benefit is in remaining unconditional so that in that moment I don't have What to tell myself Kelly if you don't calm down you're going to ruin it or Kelly why are you anxious yeah what's wrong with you? I don't have to go into that internal dialogue, I can instead redouble my attention, I can think about who and what matters to me, why this matters to me, maybe I can imagine the best possible outcome and then I can also use the energy that I It often comes with anxiety.

I have come to recognize anxiety as a physical state that really serves me well when I am in a role that I must perform, for example teaching, if I do not get anxious before teaching a class, I mean any Class A that I have taught a thousand times before , if I don't feel anxious right before or even when I approach to teach it, there is something wrong, it's almost like I'm dissociated from the fact that I was born for this. I prepared very hard. So I really want to connect with my students if I don't feel like something is wrong because I've learned that I can really trust myself to use that energy.

I know that energy, like my body, is now a vehicle for it and that. It comes in part from practice, a lot of practice, a lot of preparation and then developing self-confidence. I really like how you literally embody the notion of greeting your anxiety and the Mantra that you know is in my heart is so powerful because one of the first signs that people report is their heartbeat and that distracts them, but if you agree and say hello, this means I care about this and it even extends to I care about the audience I'm in front of and listening to you.

Getting nervous about something that is important and how it gives me clues about it is meaningful to me and I also get nervous before teaching and now I look for it like you do and if I didn't have it, it ever happened to me like once or twice. I had a class where I was

feeling

a little numb before and man, things didn't go well, it's something I've done before or something that distracted me and you missed it, it wasn't there, yeah, it wasn't there during and that's it even another way to rephrase it: sometimes my anxiety is a sign of presence, which is very different from how people normally think of presence as something very calm.

You know, I actually love the energy of anxiety when it's the right combination of adrenaline. and endorphins and dopamine we love this feeling people do all kinds of things to try to get that chemical cocktail of adrenaline, dopamine and endorphins, you know, paying attention to my physiology and other activities. I love to exercise. I realize it feels very physical. similar, so I just have to set a goal like anxiety is not so big in situations where I have nothing to do. I'll be honest about it when I'm worrying about the future and there's nothing I can do or I'm on a plane and I clearly can't handle it like it's anxiety in those moments that I have other coping skills for, but since you specifically asked about talking or that kind of performance, no, that's exactly right and I think it's that reframing that these are the normal physiological symptoms that in many cases that we seek out and enjoy, I think about first dates or exciting conversations and we're doing the same thing, but we frame them Like, hey, this is cool.

I really like that you and I teach communication skills at the GSP, in fact as part of the covid emergency plan that was implemented here, you and I were each other's backup if one of us got seriously ill, by the way , this is a smart policy. In fact, I think it was pretty good that we got used to doing it. That's right, yeah, that was good, it was just stress for me knowing that someone as competent as you could step in, although I have to admit I got a little nervous because my students would like you more than me if I disappeared.

I'm curious. What do you think are the most common mistakes you see in our students and those you coach when it comes to communication? Yes, first of all, let me set the context. I work primarily with PhD students who are doing incredible research, so they're used to it. communicate their research in academic settings and my class is to help them communicate in all settings professionally at conferences, but also with the media and with potential collaborators, stakeholders and random people on the street, and I would say that which I say over and over Again and we do all these exercises to try to practice it and yet it's very difficult for them to talk about details, not abstractions, so I don't want to know that you study the technological interface of emotions and intelligence artificial in market analysis. of blob as basically a string of nouns and I'm hoping I like it, could you point out something you actually study, like a dating app?

Okay, great and what problem are you trying to solve, how to get people to match

better

or something like that. And that's why I always say: show me the real thing, show me the question you ask people in your studio, take a picture of the people doing what you study, even if what you're doing is modeling and you never leave your computer on. Go out into the world and take a picture of who you are and what you're modeling for me to understand, so I say that's the most important thing we work on. I'm talking about creating artifacts for your research, the photos, the videos, the audio.

Sample objects that will help people understand what you do and use language that people will understand immediately. I think the other mistake is the mentality that a lot of academics have, partly because they're terrified of getting a PhD, and they basically understand that I don't know anything and people are eager to point that out to you, so people get into the habit of feeling like They have to prove that they know things, hide that they don't know things, and also persuade you that their research is correct. Many times, in research or communications presentations, my students like to talk fast and deliver things so quickly that they can barely keep up, so they can't interrupt with criticism and I don't want to answer questions because the questions might reveal what they are saying.

I don't know. I don't know, there's this idea that my job is just to push my research and get through it without there being any kind of critical dialogue and what I always say is that the purpose of any really interesting communication has to be for each other. Just because a person has interesting thoughts in their head about your work is not to convince them that your work is right or important or that you know everything about it. You want the person listening or watching you to think, wait, what if this or I wonder if I believe it or not.

The degree to which they have their own spontaneous and interesting thoughts and questions. That is the measure of success. Really rethink what you are doing and how you do it. Those are two things we spend a lot on. A lot of time talking about wow, so there's a lot of stuff there. I really like that the goal is for people to have their own experience of your content absolutely and that not only invites collaboration rather than a challenge and a threat, but it also forces you, I think, to be an audience. Focused, my goal is for you to have an experience rather than me just pushing all that information, we do everything I teach empathic design for talks, what do they need to know, when do they need to know it, what do they need to see, what do they need? they need to like literally see visually when they need to be able to interrupt that it's really from that that point of view and it's not this it's not just for academics anyone is in that same position I train and teach executives and managers who are willing they don't want to be threatened and challenged they just want to get their decrees out and move on it's the same thing tell them it's if there are problems with your work people already know it's very funny I'll see students like them' I'll say something interesting and say: "Wait a minute", it was as fascinating as remembering that This woman in my class had mentioned that she calculated things with a certain 15 minute window during market trading. specific, I thought, that's very interesting, why that 15 minute window and tell me more about it, she said, well, I rushed through it because I didn't want anyone to ask questions about it.

I was afraid that maybe it was the wrong choice. I say no, this means you made the right decision, it's interesting and it almost doesn't matter if it's the perfect choice. I want to know that you made a decision. I want to hear why you made the decision. I want to be able to have an opinion on your choice. I think that particular example is really important and resonates really well with some of the things we've talked about when talking to people who are experts in improv making a decision committing to the choice being behind it that choice and being willing to accept the consequences that come from that choice and I don't want to lose what you said before about this notion of helping people really see what you're talking about and that's so critical that it's so easy to hide. . behind slides and data, but if you can actually get people to help people have an experience of what you're talking about and it can also be with data, so I always say you know if you have videos of babies doing fun things. because you study infant cognition, show the videos of the baby, but also if what you have is data or a model, you know, what people always do is they put it all there and they say, as you can see, X next, I say no. , right, you don't say, as you can see, right, you walk me through this, what you're looking at here is this notice, this like you do it with zoom, you interpret it, this point, this slope, whatever this meaning, this, as you can see, is different from you want people to actually see it, so it can be photos and videos or it can be data, but the idea that someone can understand something just because their eyes see it on a slide It's very different from someone having a real understanding and opinion. about it, oh absolutely, and it takes them outside of themselves and puts them in the perspective of their audience and I just want to get meta for a second and not no Facebook, but you would have done a great job and the answer to that question from By asking exactly what you are talking about, you helped show us and give us an experience.

You are an excellent communicator both written and oral. I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about your process. What are you doing? are you thinking of developing yourcommunication. I always start with the best possible outcome for the audience that matters most to me, so you never control everyone in the room or everyone reading. you know the op-ed you write or the book you write, so I'm always thinking well, who am I really trying to talk to or reach and what's the best possible outcome for them? Do I want them to feel a certain way?

Do I want them to change their behavior in a certain way? and then I work backwards and think about what they need to hear what they need to do what story I could tell that would make that outcome more likely and you know, often I'm literally writing these things down. I'm writing.that and I'm starting to get ideas for blocks of content and this would be true if I was writing a chapter for a book or giving a keynote and I often think what are these content blogs like what's the best story I have what's the best case study I have what is the best scientific study I have you know I really learned to put things judiciously and that it only has to be one I only have to tell a story for an idea I only have to share a study wow so To go back to the first part of what you said, I think it's great, you actually map backwards, you start with what the outcome is and what are the steps I need to get there to teach, that's absolutely how you design a class.

We haven't talked about that before, but it's really interesting to start with what the ending is and then what do I need to add to it and you're adding things very judiciously, just a key example. You know many of our listeners know that for decades I have found great benefits from practicing martial arts and I know that you are a big believer in exercise and movement, not just in communication but in life in general, and your most recent book, The Joy of Movement, is a testament to that idea. I'm curious. If you could share why exercise is so important not only for health but for life and I saw in the New York Times that you have fun exercises and I would like to hear a little bit about how we all need a little more joy in our lives people listening I just did a cheer move when you said let's back up, let's start with cheer training like this, one of the things I tell my students is to always start in the middle of the action, as well as start your speech with something interesting and very often people start with these general vague things.

It has to be like an action movie, it's actually very good, so when I explain joy training you will understand how I think about movement, so the New York Times called me. and they said, "You know, we have all these seven-minute workouts that are based on getting your heart rate up or using all your muscles in a specific way and we were curious if it would be possible to create a workout specifically to do People were happy and I was like why Yeah, I actually do it 10 times a week. What they ended up doing was asking me to tap into the science of what we know about what Joy looks and feels like in the body and can they teach people to move? in that way so that it really makes them happier, more optimistic, more connected, more celebratory and it's based on this fascinating research that when people are in situations where they are dynamically happy, they get good news and they just imagine what they would do when They get good news People raise their fists They throw their arms they jump up and down What would you do if you saw someone you love but haven't seen in years You open your arms wide Do you like to lift your face? towards the sky there are these gestures that people do or even if you think about an athlete who just did something amazing in a game, they pose, they show off, they do their happy dance, then it turns out that these movements are very similar everywhere.

In the world, in many different cultures, it seems to be a natural expression of joy, so I developed this exercise where you just like to jump for joy and celebrate, and sway and bounce, show people what it can look like, but you do it. your way. with upbeat music designed to make people feel

better

too and at the end of the eight minutes you know that the idea is that you can move your body in ways that increase your heart rate and that are good for you physically, but you didn't do it like a punishment for what you ate or didn't eat because you're afraid of some disease you might get in a decade or for giving a presentation, yes or it is, but you do it because you can have a direct experience in movement that you value and you know the research.

It is very clear that people who are more physically active in an activity they enjoy are happier, have better relationships, have more meaning in life. I would love for everyone we work with to experience that joy in their communication but also in just life in general. I find your approach to both mind and body. Minds expressed in physical movements are really empowering and very helpful before finishing. I'd like to ask you the same three questions that I ask everyone who joins me. Are you willing to do it? Yes. Alright, I saw a big smile on everyone's face, if you captured the best communication advice you've ever received in a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?

I think this will be unusual. My honest answer is trusting people to suit your experiences, that was eight, okay, I'll let you go, help me understand what that means, trusting people to suit your experiences, so this was something that I was taught by a Zen master talking about how we present ourselves to others. people and how important it is, especially when you're trying to help someone, to be present with them in a way that can contain the opposites of both. You may be suffering right now. You may feel overwhelmed. You may have health problems. Whatever the situation. is and I want to help and also have some kind of fundamental belief that because you are human and because this is your reality, you are right for this moment, there is something in you that is right for the moment in your life and this is something that is a matter of trust or faith, it is a kind of trust in the audience and that is their life, it revolves around them and I am here in a moment of interaction and often before giving a talk, Even I'll think okay, I just hope to say or do something that someone here needed to hear, that's a beautiful Mantra too.

I found myself obsessed with the word adequate because to me adequate means minimally acceptable, but in the way you do it. We're using it, it's very different and it's right and no one wants to be right, but I think what we're saying is that people often desperately feel like it's not right for this moment. I am inadequate. "I can't handle this, this is too much and I know what it feels like, like I have that voice in my head too, so there's something about this, it's a kind of absolute acceptance and it's also taken away some of the pressure that I don't have." ".

It has to be great, let me ask you the second question and I will be very curious to hear your answer. Who is a communicator you admire and why? She will be someone most people don't know, but I will try to describe her well enough for you to appreciate her. Her name is Natalie Goldberg, so Natalie Goldberg is an author and also a Zen teacher. She has a very strong accent, like a deep, strong, powerful voice, so she sounds very different and then what she says when she says. talk is like absolute ruthless authenticity, this is how it is, this is my experience, the details, there is something so ingrained in it and I will listen to her talk about anything because she will tell you the color of the carpet, but because she will tell you. because it means something I don't know, it's like the opposite of abstractions, and yet she is so in touch with what it means to be human that everything that comes from her teaching and writing feels like it reminds me of common humanity. .

I believe that a communicator we admire, who inspires us and challenges us to change or at least reflect on who we are, is the right type of communicator. What are the first three ingredients that are part of a successful communication recipe? I have an answer that actually has three parts that I didn't even have to make up for. Okay, this is something I also teach in my communications class and also when I coach people who give Ted Talks. This is an idea I learned from Gail. Larson, who teaches a style of speaking that I really admire, is about seeing speaking as an opportunity to change people's lives and says that there are three types of sides of yourself that you can show in any talk, one is the face of amazement, which is really it's curiosity it's open-mindedness it's what you ask yourself it's what motivates you the second is the face of the creative fire and it's what you're passionate about it's your drive it's all your time and your energy manifested by showing that you care and then the third one is my favorite, which I don't know how often I get to do it, but it's just rude magnificence and that's when you realize that there's something that people need to hear and it might be difficult and you know it.

Because of your lived experience or the wisdom you've gained through your own suffering and adversity or because you've been willing to look and think about something for a long time, do you have the opportunity to say something that feels important and true? However, you are the one who can say it, you are the one who has thought about this the most in the room, or you have a unique life experience to share. Well, I wouldn't expect anything less from a communications professor to share three truly powerful ingredients. so the notion of curiosity, passion, and what I'm going to call authentic wisdom, well, Kelly, this has been a real joy and pleasure.

I have always admired what you teach and how you teach it and the passion you bring and it has been a It is a real pleasure to talk and I hope that people realize that it is so valuable to reflect on our communication about our physical well-being and the joy that we can give to others, so thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. to watch another episode of think fast talk smart, the Stanford Graduate School of Business podcast, this episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Riley and Matt Abrahams, for more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu or Subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts. find us on social media at Stanford GSB