89. Listen, Listen, Listen: How to Build Deep Connections

Forming relationships can be a great challenge at work, in our personal life, in our romantic life, today let's learn some skills that will help us. I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast that I am. I'm so excited today to talk to Rachel Greenwald. Rachel is an Executive Fellow at Harvard Business School and, interestingly, is a professional matchmaker and dating coach. She is an expert in communication and relationship

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ing in work, love, and life at Stanford University. She has given a seminar with a previous guest.

Tina Selig at D school called Design for Love. She also hosts lectures with two of our other past guests. Alison Woodbrooks and Naomi Bagdonas welcome Rachel. Thanks for being here. Hi Matt. I am very excited about our conversation today. Me too. Let's go ahead and jump. Right in you help people

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relationships in two very different arenas, you coach executives in the business world and you coach singles in the dating world. What have you learned about one of the most challenging aspects of relationship building? Small talk that applies to both worlds and how. Do you make small talk feel more comfortable when you meet someone at work or on a date?

One big thing I've learned about creating successful small talk at both work and dating is simply that you shouldn't be a data collector, so what do I mean? that's why it's like asking where are you from what do you do how many siblings do you have that's so boring to ask and boring to answer well in all my research I really found out over and over again that boredom is the enemy of small talk Many people default to those predictable data sharing topics, so it's no wonder that everyone hates or fears small talk, so your goal should be simply intriguing so that someone wants to come up and get to know you.

I always say that in the space between expected lies and unexpected lies Intrigue if you want to be intriguing you have to ask better questions and you have to give better answers when someone asks you a boring question so I'll try to think of an example here as if you were in a first date and someone asks you a boring data collection question, like what do you always do, the first thing everyone asks, so instead of just stating the fact like you're an engineer, you could turn it into an intriguing guessing game that might sound a bit What am I doing right?

Let me give you two clues and see if you can guess. I had to get a master's degree for it and it usually involves avocados, so that's a very unexpected answer. It's intriguing and what I like most about this is that it immediately signals to the other person that this isn't going to be your standard boring small talk exchange, it's going to be much more enjoyable and memorable, it's just a better conversation for both people. I want to know what kind of engineer uses avocados. It definitely made me intrigued, but this notion of engaging and creating intrigue applies not only in the dating world, but also in all of our interactions when we talk at work about a project we're on, rather than just providing the facts as you suggest we could. make it intriguing, we could share the potential value it brings.

I really like that idea and it helps us as communicators reframe the whole purpose because, as you said, many of us fear small talk and whether it becomes an opportunity to engage and intrigue someone. that suddenly makes it a lot more interesting, yes not at all, just don't try to gather data on the other person, just try to think about how I would like to spend these next few minutes. I'm sure the other person feels the same way. Somehow, let's try to make this absolutely fun and intriguing when it comes to Small Talk Rachel in particular.

I find it and I know a lot of people find the start of small talk and how to get out of small talk how to end it. really challenging, can you share ways you train people to start and end small talk? I'm sure the beginning and the end are the hardest part, so if you're someone who has a hard time starting small talk, it's probably because you're worried about finding that intriguing question we were talking about, so if that's your obstacle , then I would say just forget about asking a question, remove that pressure and instead think about simply making an observation about something in your environment, so that an observation is essentially an offer. for connection and can create a sense of instant familiarity, like a sort of conspiratorial vibe just between two people, so what's an example like you could say to someone standing next to you at a networking event?

You know, hey, that brownie over there at the buffet should have a big sign that comes with it that says this requires 75 minutes in the Peloton. You know something, any observation. Nation, it doesn't have to be funny, but something in your mutual environment can create a space where the two of you can smile. about something right in front of you before you launch into the business of getting to know each other, so that's the beginning of the little exchange of small talk that I would suggest to make it easier and that ending is very important and I also use it to train my two my parents and my executives at work.

I use this technique I call the white flag and the white flag is something that people who know how to drive race cars will probably recognize. The white flag in a race car situation is when someone stands at the finish line as the cars go around and around and the person with a white flag just before the last lap of the race will throw the white flag and that says the race is almost over, but there's one more lab, so, for example, if you're at a party, anything you can say to someone toward the end while you're trying to wrap up your conversation, you could say before you go. to drink an cup.

I have one last question because it was great to hear about your trip to Alaska. I'm wondering if you have a favorite hike to recommend in Anchorage in case I get out there someday, so you

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to what they recommend about their favorite hike and then as you walk away you say something like I really enjoy talking to you and I love your shoes, so it's important to remember that ending small talk is something called the recency effect in social psychology, where people will rate and experience it more positively if the last part of the experience is Pleasant, so end your conversation with This tactic is like you have one last question and then give a compliment, a sincere compliment of course, as you walk away, just make someone feel like you're genuinely

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ing to them and by the way, you admired something about them when you first said White.

Flag I thought you meant surrender like I was giving up, but I know auto racing and I know the White Flag analogy. I really like that idea. I can totally see how you could use that in a conversation to say I need to review. There I have to do this, but before doing it I would like to learn one more thing. I think it's a wonderful technique and it's really important to remind everyone of the recency effect, that is, how we feel at the end of an interaction, so do something. In the end, that's a positive, I think it's great, instead of that awkwardness that many of us feel when we just say, "I need something else to drink" and walk away from the person.

I really appreciate that advice and have a social event coming up for Workben. I'm going to use that technique right away in terms of getting started. I like the idea of ​​finding some kind of common ground or common connection that I can imagine at a work function talking about a keynote speaker or a certain goal that was just discussed as a way to get people to start that conversation and work together. to move the conversation forward, which was very, very helpful. I took a lot of notes on what you just said and hope to put them into practice in the very near future.

I know you and I talked about this once when We met Rachel when I was in grad school. I published research on flirting and starting a relationship. This is a topic that really fascinated me then and still fascinates me now and it was also a huge help because I met my wife while she was studying flirting. Now in graduate school, as a matchmaker, you help many people start and start relationships. What advice do you give daters about effective communication? Is there different advice you give to people looking for romantic partners versus those looking for platonic, professional relationships?

Matt is exactly The same advice in a romantic or professional context is no different at all and the advice is to simply focus on how you make someone feel rather than the words you are saying, which is reminiscent of that Maya Angelou quote where all the world knows this. I'm sure, but people will forget what you said, they will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel. Instead of, for example, trying to impress someone with your own stories or your credentials, you'll want to lean on their stories, their credentials, and make them feel smart or funny or even just make them feel accepted instead of judged, which is like most people feel every day that everyone judges them so you can have comments like someone told you something and say something I don't know like wow.

It would never have occurred to me to do that, how did you come up with that idea? Comments have to be genuine, although that is really important. You can't fake interest in someone. People can smell something fake from a mile away, so try to keep it in your head. This Mantra says that in every meeting every person in this room has something to teach me and then your interest and inclination towards their stories will feel more genuine. You mentioned the word flirt in your question and whether you use the word flirt in a dating context or if you label it as something different in a work context like the beginning of a relationship, it's basically the same thing: you are showing that you are interested in someone and that You like him, and it's the universal truth that most people will like you if you like him first.

I really liked that advice and as I listened to it I remembered that my late mother-in-law was an expert at small talk and meeting people, when she came to visit she had to fly and the first half hour of our conversations when she arrived would be about all the new friends she made on the flight and she used what I heard. One of the techniques you were talking about was genuine curiosity. She was very interested in people and she really liked meeting people. and you could feel that her superpower was being able to ask the question, tell me more, I'd like to learn more, what else can you tell me about that?, and she would use it all the time to really start conversations and to signal that she was really interested, so I really appreciate what you said and I wish we had met when I was in grad school studying this.

You would have helped me a lot to concentrate on the things I was interested in studying. Your work. up close at times with some of our most popular past guests, Allison Wood Brooks and Naomi Bagdonis, my interviews with them focused on humor and I'm curious to hear their take on using humor in conversations in our personal and professional lives . The word humor is always It's stressful and I think it is for a lot of people too because it feels daunting, like there's pressure to be funny, so I don't consider myself a funny person, so I try to reframe that word humor and train. people about specifically using light banter in conversation, which to me sounds a lot easier, less pressure-filled and really achieves the same goal which is to lighten the mood, so for example we talked before about find observations in your environment that are unexpected or funny and I think it's a great starting point for light banter observations.

It could be something like standing in a room full of people and turning to the person next to you and saying something like I love that woman's sweater over there, it's so Madonna Circa in 1985 or just something like that, no. It has to be funny, it's just a light comment, but when you mention humor, I also want to warn people that there is a dark side to using humor in conversations, which most people don't think about. humor. any negative form, but it really can be if used incorrectly, so I conducted a 10-year dating research project where I compiled a list of 13 bad conversation habits and one of the bad habits I found I called the comedian and the comedian is someone in conversation who laughs a lot because he has jokes or is self-deprecating and at first that's fun, but soon your interlocutor may long for a

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er connection than just all the laughter and someone who is the comedian can use his humor as a shield and youconversation partner can't penetrate that shield, which they will find frustrating, in a way you feel like as a conversation partner you are an audience that stays away from the artist and the comedian always reminds me when I crash after a high of sugar.

If you give too much chocolate, you may suddenly feel tired or dissatisfied, so remember that the goal of communication is to create a connection and make a favorable impression, so you obviously don't want to make someone feel like talking to you. It's exhausting because you're using too much humor in your communication style. I think the first point you made is really true when we try to be funny it just invokes a lot of stress so I like your rephrasing of hey this is just a light joke and that requires taking the pressure off and by taking it off I think it frees us up to be more fun and connect more.

I'm really curious to know that you said you found 13 bad conversation habits. Can you share with us two or three more besides the comedian? Yes, absolutely one. The most common bad habits that people have is something I call the mirror and the mirror is the dynamic where, no matter what you say, the other person has a similar story that reflects back to you like, oh, wow, I like it. Same thing happened, you're just waiting your turn politely. until you stop talking so they can reflect on their own relatable experiences and that's understandable because I think we're taught when you're younger or maybe even in some kind of sales training programs you're taught that you're supposed to find a point. . of connection where you can identify with someone, but actually I find it's the complete opposite.

I find that the mirror habit can deflate conversational energy or make it feel choppy, so the exchange can seem superficial and you don't feel heard, there are all kinds of other ones like the interrupter, someone who simply interrupts you before that you can finish the sentence and try to finish it for you. They're sure they already know what they're going to say, so they have that dirty four-letter word dynamic. knowing and the other person is simply upset because they don't feel heard, so all of these bad conversation habits actually have to do with the feeling you create in your interlocutor, whether you're trying to be the superior or the humble braggart or any of these 13 types I found, you are doing yourself a disservice because you are almost trying to impress the other person as if they can understand why they behave that way, but the end result is that your interlocutor does not.

I don't feel good talking to you, thank you for sharing and as you go through each of those bad communication behaviors, I saw in my mind people who practice those skills and how they make me feel and the Meta message of what I heard from you. Rachel share is that we constantly have to be thinking about how we are conducting our conversation. Partners, our coworkers, the people we're interested in hanging out with and not focusing so much on our particular goal at that moment, which is sharing my story. As soon as you share yours, and that's a wonderful reminder of what makes communication effective, focus on the needs of the person you're talking to before you finish.

I would like to ask you the same three questions that I ask everyone. Are you ready for that Rachel, yes, I would love to, excellent. I'm excited to hear your answers. If you could capture the best communication advice you've ever received in a five- to seven-word presentation slide title, what would you call it? The title of this slide everyone knows, but you, um, what I mean by this is that you have a blind spot in communication, but you don't know what it is, everyone else knows it and you don't, so maybe You may even have more than one blind spot, but people are terrible judges of their own communication skills, they overestimate or underestimate them, they have no idea how someone feels when they talk to you, so you're the last to know unless you ask for feedback, so this tip is about trying to get feedback and it's true in dating, friendship and business, anything.

I didn't know where you would take your slide title, but I love the point that we need to look for feedback. We are not the best observers of our own communication, so for question number. two, who is a communicator that you admire and why for that question I'm going to choose someone outside the realm of standard communication and point to someone named Priya Parker, who some of you may know, others may not. She is the author of a book that is one of my all-time favorites called The Art of Getting Together and her work focuses on reimagining how we spend our time together to create more meaning, so she is not specifically in the field of communication, but it talks a lot about setting the tone for a meeting. before it even begins and this is a point on the Communication Continuum that I think doesn't get enough attention and I call that point the precommunication point, which is the idea that communication actually begins in subtle ways before it even begins. that you are in the same space with someone and the space could be in person or as you mentioned earlier it could be a digital space like Zoom and even email or text, so space is defined broadly, but Priya Parker advocates It's important to set the tone before interacting with someone.

So, is your next conversation or meeting going to be fun or do you want it to be serious or the emphasis on being productive whatever it is? If you think about all the communication that happens before a business meeting, like calendar invites or even the first few minutes in the zoom window when people log in before the meeting starts, what if you created a smart title for the calendar invite or if you played a theme song on Zoom for the first 60 seconds that reflects the desired mood? I really like this meeting because I think you can generally have the best communication skills on the planet, but if people aren't prepared to be receptive to you, it's really a missed opportunity.

I really like Priya's work. I've read the book, I've heard her speak, and this notion of setting the table if you want to prepare people is really important. We had a wonderful conversation with Robert Cialdini about what he calls persuasion and how to get people in the right space for you. To make the requests for influence that they have, we don't spend enough time thinking about the context of the community education that we're about to have by highlighting Priya Parker's work, she reminds us that we need to do that, we're going to go back to ecology.

Again, and if you think about the Primacy effect, people remember the first information they encounter and that is better than information presented later, so prior communication is difficult to master, but Priya Parker knows how to prepare future conversations to have. success communicating. in advance what do you hope to achieve absolutely question number three what are the first three ingredients that are part of a successful communication recipe oh, I love that question, the first thing that comes to mind is the expression that I am going to steal from Real Estate, so in real estate, you probably know the advice for buying a valuable property like location, location, so I'm going to say the same thing as similar in communication, which is listen, listen, listen, that's so important it's worth repeating three times for people, whether business or dating, I put a lot of emphasis in communication on what to say, but really successful communication is about active listening and I use the word active intentionally because I don't mean just listening, like stop talking , being silent or letting the other person talk, but actively listening means things.

For example, don't plan your next response, don't listen to what someone says and secretly think about how you're going to respond, and active listening means asking follow-up questions instead of refocusing the topic on yourself and probably most of all. . Active listening is about encouraging someone to give more details. I love those ingredients, you know Rachel. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us and give us very specific advice on how we can better connect with coworkers, potential romantic partners, and platonic friends. I apreciate it. your time I appreciate your input thank you oh you're welcome thank you for joining us for another episode of think fast talk smart the Stanford Graduate School of Business podcast this episode was produced by Jenny Luna Ryan Campos and I Matt Abrahams our music was provided by Floyd Wonder to get For more information and episodes, find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

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