Unforgiven: The Boys Who Killed A Child (Jamie Bulger Documentary) | Real Stories

the faces of ten-year-old killers tonight the first new photos of Thompson and Venables new revelations about their years in custody and threats to hunt them down if they are released eight years have passed since two ten-year-old

boys

murdered James Bulger the anger is still there . I am completely and absolutely in favor of doing anything to keep those lunatics, those evil, vile people in prison. Thompson and Venables. I don't think they were punished in any way. They have not served a long sentence. they have not been treated like criminals it is a common theme in Pete Price calls on the phone and the answer is always the same hello Lesley eiope violently what can we do here where do we start peace again what should we do with them we keep them locked up for life because in the end of the day it's Ralph and Denise and the rest of their family and friends who are serving life sentences, no then peace thank you very much for talking to us Lesley, let's go on another call hello Paul, we should honk the horn and play On Jupiter you would

real

ly have hung up to two ten year olds, yes, one was never old enough to appreciate punishment, so you would have waited until they grew up and then hanged them, yes, so you kept them locked up and then hung them, yes, all of them. right, Paul, thank you very much for that, give us a call. see one five one four seven two The two killers are now eligible for parole and Pete Price is among those campaigning to keep them locked up.

Public opinion seems firmly on his side. It is a very emotional moment. Topic for the KB people I can't begin to think about age. These photographs of Robert Thompson and Jon Venables have never before been seen taken at the time they were charged. They are also the last photographs you are allowed to see. A court order means the most recent ones cannot be proven, we cannot speak to anyone involved in their care or custody or say where they are being held. Legal restrictions mean that very little concrete information about Thompson and Venables has emerged over the past eight years.

The Lord Chief Justice said they have made remarkable progress. How do we know how the system has treated ten-year-old murderers? What treatment did they receive? Are they still dangerous? So far we have only heard from those who want to retain them. locked up for life, so tonight we take a deeper look at his time in custody and some of what we found is so controversial it's no surprise it's been kept secret. The secrecy contrasts sharply with the very public way in which this case unfolded. We all recognize the images from the Strand shopping center in Bootle a small boy being carried away by two older

boys

the police hoped they were just teenagers playing and two year old James would be returned safely for two days the search for James dominated the news and It seemed that the entire country shared the anguish of the packages, then a group of

child

ren playing on the train track found the body of a

child

.

James had been cut in half by a train. Well, it's pretty obvious that, from the pattern of injuries, he hadn't died from the train, I mean. he had been hit by the train but he had a lot of head injuries so we were not dealing with a death on the train so tell me what the autopsy established then about the injuries the autopsy showed he had a lot of what are called injuries splits and lacerations mainly on the head that were the result of strong blows with the bricks and the iron bar that were found at the scene a two-year-old boy beaten to death apparently by other children it seemed impossible to believe During the following days, he was questioned about 60 young people and then the police were notified about two younger children who were missing school when James disappeared, so when they said ten-year-olds, you think, well, it has to be done, the information comes like that. we have to go see him for an interview you know it could possibly be them oh no I didn't I don't think the other detectives did that well Phil Roberts led the team that arrested Robert Thompson lived a few hundred yards from where James' body was found, Robert came down, he was clean, clean and ready to go to school, so I thought, well, I have to tell him, so I sat him down on the couch and I knelt down, like I was iContact, Roberts said .

I'm here because I've changed Maurice, you know, he said, but we were told you might be involved in this. Then he started to panic and started crying, but he wasn't crying with tears, there were just no tears, but he was more afraid of the crime. More than anything, Robert was taken to Walton Lane police station. His mother went with him a couple of miles away, on Norris Green Estate. Another team arrested Jon Venables and took him to see the Elaine police station. The first thing I noticed about John was that he seemed far away. Younger than he was ten years old, he actually looked like a little eight-year-old cherub with an angelic face supported by his mother, who was a kind and polite person.

He would never have dreamed that he would be capable of committing a crime like this. Robert He was remarkably young, that would be the first thing that would catch your attention. He was younger perhaps than anyone had ever seen in a custodial setting before, let alone the seriousness of the offence. He was so small. He clearly he was very vulnerable. That is the clearest memory I have. How does it give me to see someone so small and so young among so many adults in such a difficult situation. Gently, the police began the interrogation, always keeping in mind that they were dealing with ten-year-old children.

In the second interview, Robert admitted that James had been taken, but he blamed him. all about his friend John, this is the

real

sound of police interviews, just calm down, boom, okay, yeah, it was like pulling teeth, everything was going slowly and you had to be very patient interviewing a guy. You robbed a child like that, you had to do everything slowly once, yes, fortunately, the only sauce, yes, great, I forgot that you knew it was difficult to take the next step because everything was Juna's interview, step by step, if he lies , admit, admit, well, I admit it.

The other team was having even more difficulty with Jon Venables during the first four interviews. He lied, he wasn't even at the Strand, so halfway through the second day the police told him that Robert had already admitted that they were both there, suddenly there was silence and he said. Yeah, we were on the Strand, but honestly, Mom, we never grabbed a kid and there was the most terrible crying and he jumped out of his seat, a very tactile kid, and he hugged the police officers and he hugged his mom and he was screaming. and cried. It won't hurt him, boy who never grabbed a boy, mom, and that was the first time I thought, oh my God, if this is the first of many breaches of the dam, we're going to be submerged, he said Serbia was in this race and If you saw the boy, I neither I nor God's honest truth, God's honest truth and tell me never, he's too scared, he's probably too scared and you said if you're talking about the hand and you took him out of the strong stores . but little by little the awful truth began to emerge from the beach on which they had accompanied James to the nearby canal.

Robert made the boy kneel and look into the water in the hope that he would fall and drown and that same day they attempted to kidnap another young man. child, but their mother had caught them just in time, so all the time it's a spiral and a downward spiral where they are where their desire to increase the severity of their bad actions becomes higher and higher and higher and higher and they seem to be At some point at the point of no return, both boys equally took an important part in the day's activities. You'll see that at times when Jon Venables takes the lead, they need something to attract James and elsewhere the witnesses indicate that Robert was fine. carrying James across the street and John standing next to over 30 people they saw them dragging James the boy was crying his head was bleeding but no one intervened and this is where the railroad tracks ended in Walton only a few freight trains pass by loudly on their way to At the Docks, despite two days of interrogation, none of the children admitted what happened here.

The breakthrough came with Jon Venables. The police thought he wouldn't tell the truth because he was afraid of her parents' reaction, so between interviews, Susan Venables told her son that they would love him. whatever he had done and then he made what were the first confessions and it was yolk. I

killed

the baby. Very sorry. Can you tell his mother? I'm sorry. I think she said and then from then on she made certain confessions or certainly. that he was present and inflicted some of the injuries caused to James, so he says that the same house is looking him right in the face and did not fall from what they say while he does all this.

Why does he want it? staying down probably in Walton Lane Robert Thompson denied taking part in the murder, however there was strong forensic evidence that he kicked James in the face there was blood on his shoes he tried to stop the public it was disbelief up to ten years old -The older boys committed us a murder, it was both a relief and a dismay that ten year olds could be so violent towards a small child. Public anger was almost unprecedented; There was almost a riot the first time the two appeared in court nine months ago. After the murder, in a formal trial at the crown court, the accused were known only as A and B back in 1993, the lord assumed that a child between ten and fourteen years old did not always know right from wrong, the The prosecution had to prove that they did know, so the trial didn't depend on whether they

killed

James, but if they fully understood that separating him from his mother and beating him to death was a serious mistake, that was all the legal system needed to know, the jury found them guilty of murder and for the minors they only have a sentence of detention during her majesty's pleasure, the judge made a decision that has become an important factor in this case identified the children, their school photographs are now recognized by almost everyone in the country, but at the same time the judge ordered that no details of their future in custody could be revealed, meaning that Thompson and Venables will always be remembered, but only as murderers; however, they have changed any progress they have made that has been kept secret.

Mary's Church of England Primary School in Liverpool, eight months before Jon Venables and Robert Thompson became murderers, they are now 18 years old, but fixed in the public mind as ten-year-old monsters, evil monsters of nature, any other point of view, especially in Liverpool, tends to remain. hidden I didn't consider Robeson to be evil, you know, in my eyes and what I've seen of thieves, he was a normal kid who did naughty things like any other kid, his son was also his aunt Mary's son. Of Roberts' few friends, most of the time they both skipped class "I add that I used to take him to school, put him in a box and he would sneak out the other door without me knowing.

Then I discovered that they used to do that." . going to the stores he pinched cookies and candy and the other den but without realizing it the den was and he also plays on the train tracks she knew her son was out of control but she didn't know what to do about it sometimes the children wandered around there until after midnight I just couldn't find it. She used to walk the streets looking for a man. You know, I just couldn't find it. He was worried. I didn't report it to the police because I thought if I report it to the police, then Wellness comes at your back and before you know it, I have to say it, so you know, I just you know, I planned and just hoped that he would be okay.

Robert Thompson's mother felt the same way, she didn't want social services to interfere, but her son did. his entire family was far from well. I think ironically that Robert's family was emerging from a terrible period of chaos, but it was too late for Robert. Robert's father had left the house about four years earlier and had caused great drama and trauma for his mother. I drank a lot at the time, Robert was the fifth of six children and I think there was quite a bit of bullying over the years and Robert was at the bottom of the pile, the family that was desperate for help, was fragile, was damaged. was vulnerable and you have a ten year old boy at his primary school who is missing only half of his education due to truancy, apparently it had not been reported that Jon Venables had only joined the school that year in which he was they moved. wide plaza jr. where his behavior had gotten worse and worse, his teacher said John used to spin along the walls knocking down work, curl up under a group of desks so no one could reach him, stick paper all over his face, cut himself with scissors and also made holes in his socks finally tried to strangle another child with a ruler down his throat are you listening to me John showed many more signs of being seriously disturbed in his behavior he had an older brother and a younger sister both were learning difficulties They attended a special school, their parents had a fairly close relationship.unstable they have been separated for a while I think in the months before the murder they were trying some kind of reconciliation the instability is always very difficult for children to deal with it changing schools was seen as giving John a new start, instead From that, he joined Robert Thompson.

They were two little boys from difficult families who lived wildly together, but they seemed no different from many other boys until James Bulger was murdered. They were 10 years old when they were born. Locked up the public expected them to be punished for their horrible crime, but children under 15 cannot go to prison, but rather go to secure units run by local authorities. These young people may have committed serious crimes, although they are at risk of harming themselves because they are outside. The lack of control for the majority of young people arriving in safe accommodation is a huge shock;

There is a bravery when they walk through the door because that is what a teenager would expect them to walk in. Sometimes they come in strutting, some of them come in crying, some of them come in kicking and screaming, but the reality is that desires are unsafe accommodation and quickly They have realized that adults are in control of their lives and that is the first. Four or five days or even more can be a big shock. Often we young people come in with very little structure in our lives, what I would describe as living on the margins of society in the sense that we don't go to school.

They go out late at night, every day is different from the others. They often arrive with very poor health backgrounds, no educational background, and sometimes even as basic as not knowing how to brush their teeth. These are homes for children. no prisons and the emphasis is on well-being the days are strictly organized normal school hours meals at fixed times at night they are locked in their rooms there are also regular sessions with psychiatrists to try to change the attitudes and behavior that led them to enter problems we have a safe accommodation system which is one of the best in Europe we know we have an effective treatment and we know it works the results we can also predict which children are unlikely to benefit and are likely to remain at risk in the long term, but for the majority of those who are amenable to treatment the outcome is good Leon McEwen was 13 when he was sentenced to five years for arson he ended up in the same secure unit as Robert Thompson Leon knew who he was even though he was I never talked about the night covers.

I read the newspapers and listened to the news. No, so they mainly want to hear what he did from his mouth because it's a sickness, were you ever there when there was some story on the news about the murder, yeah? It was strange one time sitting there and hearing the news. I remember it was about. I showed you the picture of him and I put out the commemorative stuff and he was like walking into a dream and you could see Mike early with his stuff. He tells me what he was saying, he's swearing and stuff, we can't say where Thompson or Venables are being held for legal reasons, but they are not in any of the units shown in this program, the regime in all of them is similar to Thomson like everyone else. has its own room, this room was probably like the pact or the light of the clubs of all the units there for so long, I Liverpool posters that, like paintings, I like in my own way, painted like a lot of thick people and things like that , and the other as a Liverpool, do you decide how? hope for an interview I like that he was lending the education computer that he stopped that I need it also for his work itself, he used to cook meals for this like his family, he could be visiting as a summoner that Clark used to receive his blow as an adult and I education, but he had a leading black class.

I liked his families to sit there. I used to cook them a meal. All these revelations will no doubt increase outrage in Liverpool, where people already feel that the murderers of James Bulks have been coddled, not punished, certainly the facilities are unsafe, the units are excellent, but keeping children locked up like this is costly in On average, it costs around three thousand pounds a week, but I consider it an investment for the future if I can make a positive change in If a young person returns them safely to the community, then perhaps we will not spend large sums of money.

They were incarcerated for most of their adult lives, but for many people, especially crime victims, they don't care at all. From that they simply want to know where the punishment is, I think that when looking for a young person 13 10 11 12 13 restricting their freedom for a period of months and sometimes years you are doing that pool gym those are part of those are part of the things that Young people need to develop a sense of value, what do you want them to do? Do you want me to lock up a young man? Lock him in an environment that brutalizes him and that actually restricts his freedom in a way that is negative or wants him to make a positive change so that at the end of the process the young people come out having progressed and changed and are less likely to commit more crimes, for example.

The punishment is to lock them up, but even that is not easy. Recently, public anger has been fueled again by a series of articles in the press. Well I'm Venables and they say he has been released several times from his secure unit with his father to go to Old Trafford and they say he is also allowed out once a week to play football against local schoolboy teams they don't know his identity. The

stories

began to appear as soon as it became clear that the killers were eligible for parole this summer. Apparently Robert Thompson has been in a shopping center in Manchester, but we have discovered that he has been shopping.

In fact, he has very often been dating for years. It's called mobility. Mobility is time away from the safe unit and can take various forms. The U in the unit where I manage mobility is always supervised by at least one member of my staff team and that, in a typical young person, will start with a small amount of mobility and perhaps develop broader mobility. Its purpose is to prepare young people so that they do not move from very closed and secure environments to the community, so we will take place in the last stages of his sentence, but according to our research, Robert Thompson got his first taste of freedom little more one year after serving his sentence.

This is Rivington Pike in Lancashire in early 1995. Robert came here for a long walk supervised by the Mobility Unit staff. He had to be specifically approved in advance by the Home Office and this was just the beginning of regular trips that until now have been kept completely secret. In 1996, Robert began making monthly visits to a sports center. He just has a hard time remembering things by thinking about the past. free, I was little, I was just used to being stifled, so we went swimming another mile or whatever I used to know, we went out because the stairs said things or where he barely said a whole bed for this mall with things like that apart with them or wherever Robert also likes to go to garden centers and it is now not unusual for him to leave the unit at least once a week according to our research.

He has been all over the north of England, from Sellafield in Cumbria to Jor-el Bank in Cheshire. days in Chester and York over the years, Robert Thomson's trips have become increasingly longer in line with standard policy on mobility, sometimes he can simply start with an hour out of the unit and take a walk around a local park in motion. even maybe go pursue some educational type program and they could go to local museums of complete works where they have been doing education, maybe to a local shopping center to buy the clothes they need with the money they are allowed and that it's about allowing them to return to the community it's about promoting independent skills it's about allowing them to simply handle some kind of money on the one hand it seems like a sensible and humane policy you can't lock children up for all their formative years and I hope that they reintegrate into society rehabilitated, but when those children are the murderers of James Bulges, it is not surprising that the Home Office is not talking about it.

Is there real sensitivity when discussing mobility? It seems that the government and the Home Office would really do it. rather, people didn't talk about this, they really don't want people to know exactly what's going on. I am sure that the Home Office government has very real security concerns when it comes to discussing mobility, particularly the details of mobility in these individual cases. I respect those concerns. Is it really a shame that they really don't want to admit that After locking up young criminals, do we let them out again? I don't know what the motivation is, but I think it's clear that there are real safety concerns if that's the primary motivation.

I can't say in the end that the only justification for this policy of welfare rather than punishment will be whether it worked, how much Robert Thompson and Jon Venables have changed in the last eight years. I could see with his academics that he was doing very well in school, he was doing well in particular with his arithmetic and his English was very good and you could say he was a captive audience so to speak, he didn't have the same distractions as a schoolboy on release would have Robert Thompson has also caught up with his education, we have discovered that he took GCSEs in English, maths, history, science and textiles and has since moved on to A levels last year, the Lord Chief Justice said that the murderers have already served enough time to punish them, they should not be sent to the harsher environment of an institute for young offenders because that would undo all the good work that has changed them almost beyond recognition, in my personal opinion, an adjective to describe it that stands out more from him.

Probably more than anyone else, he is a remarkably thoughtful young man for a man his age, careful, thoughtful, considerate of other people's feelings to a degree that is, in my opinion, exceptional among 18-year-olds, but is it time to let them out? He discovered that the parole board will meet next week to decide whether Robert Thompson and Jon Venables remain dangerous if released. James Bulger's father has said they will be hunted down and people may already be making plans to do just that. DJ Pete Price is among several well-known Mercy ciders supporting the justice for James campaign, the aim being to keep Thompson and Venables locked up at the forefront of the campaign.

James's mother, Deniz, have always had the support of the popular press, which is helped by the fact that Another organiser, Chris Johnson, runs a news agency in Liverpool. He is also Denise's press agent. They know that time is running out. The Killers could be published this summer. A campaign to stop that is gathering pace. You know, always, always. I believe that justice must be saved. I think you need to go to the big jail. It's one thing to be of Jesus right now. You can't give this example. No, if you go out and run, we made a child.

Is there someone. Then you will receive the education you should have. I got it anyway and then you'll get all these things that are available to you in the lights and they'll make it easy for you. It shouldn't be like that, so go out there. My main concern is that she could probably still be a danger and is it safe if Flo commit legal crimes at what stage do you think they want to? The view that Robert Thompson remains violent has been fueled by two recent press articles. An official-looking report describing a fight was actually a complete falsification which Scotland Yard is now investigating. there was a fight there was a fight with another boy but it turns out to have been a drug addict who provoked the argument and then sold his story to the press in terms of press interest these two boys continue to be demonized and there is a I know kind of vindictive feeling in around the case, which I feel the newspapers contribute a lot to fueling.

I have always felt that people needed to take those two children out of the human frame of reference that was so difficult for any of our children to imagine. committing such a crime that people had to describe them as evil to almost dismiss them and that you know it was necessary to demonize them and make us feel better. There has always been talk that James was mutilated and sexually abused after eight. For years, such rumors appeared suddenly in the press. The injuries described were absolutely horrific. We verified every detail with the pathologist who did the autopsy and none of this is true.

There are many opinions that people have about this crime that are inaccurate as to what happened and what was done, which caused me enormous concern as to why the public seems to want to make those

stories

true when the crime in yes it was bad enough for me, it seems to devalue the crime and the life that was taken to try to make it worse as if that were notBad enough in contrast to the fake news in the press, the real developments have taken place quietly, with both Thompson and Venables having had years of regular and difficult sessions with psychiatrists.

John has described having flashbacks. where she saw James bleeding on the floor, she also had nightmares in which she dreamed of giving birth to somehow bring James back to life two years after the trial, when she blamed everything on Robert Jon Venables admitted his guilt, a serious crime It inflicts tremendous pain and damage. about other people and part of the process is that the young person has to assume that and recognize it, taking responsibility for their actions, but the most painful thing is assuming the emotional consequences of their actions and that is something very difficult and painful for anyone.

Robert Thompson lost faith in her first psychiatrist and demanded a new doctor, but he didn't open up to her until she accepted an extraordinary deal. She would only write down minimal details of what he told her, only then did he also admit. Upon killing James, she still didn't speak freely because she said she hadn't worked it out in her own head. It was five years after the murder before Robert finally expressed remorse for what he had done. The psychiatrist's opinions will weigh heavily when Thompson and the Venables appear before the parole board next week. They will also receive detailed reports on every aspect of their lives in custody.

Is this a particularly difficult case? Do you think so? With the extent of media coverage, it's a real hot potato and how much does it cost? are going to affect your decision they shouldn't shouldn't affect it at all they should focus on the evidence before them in the file and the impression they form of the person applying to themAnd what is their report? I mean, what are you trying to get at in assessing the dangerousness of the release? If there is any danger, then we would not be in a position to recommend release. We have to be satisfied that the prisoner can re-enter society safely.

Security has two cuts: Would Thompson and Venables be safe if they were released? James Bulger's father has already said publicly that they would be persecuted and that seems to be the opinion in Liverpool, but what I wanted to make clear is that someone is going to pop over them someone is going to try to attack them and that is the point, no matter what. Come on, it will be discovered where they are and we will be waiting for the headline in the newspaper that they have been killed oh, they will be killed wherever they go. murdered, we have these draconian laws that protect these two when they go out and in fact the internet will make that nonsense, well I think you're right because they will be hunted and hunted for their entire lives.

Now I think you know Deniz and Ralf will probably take some comfort from that and there are already stories that an updated photo of Robert Thompson exists, a court order means TV and newspapers can't publish it but that doesn't mean it's not going around, it's almost impossible to police the internet, it's not just websites, it's the huge volume of email traffic, someone associated with the justice for James campaign emailed me the photograph, it's a photo of a teenager and both sides They are the original. photos of schoolchildren from Thompson and Venables, so this is part of the campaign.

I don't know if the Justice for James campaign is circulating photos that are new to me. I have the photo. I can show you. I mean, you know, there you go. This was sent to me by someone on the campaign and they got it from someone else on the campaign. I mean, this is a dangerous policy, right? I mean, this is not, it certainly has nothing to do with the campaign for justice for James. Nothing that I know of in terms of anyone in the campaign having officially circulated it, it's not official policy, it can't be published.

Are you saying that's not something you would approve of? So, circulate well, it is not up to me to approve it or not. No, I don't mean, undoubtedly, people are very angry with Kirby all over the world, so I don't know, I don't know what the photograph is and I don't know who circulated it, but a lot of people know. The campaign recently held a Fundraising Night at a Liverpool pub. James' mother, Denise, was there. Fifteen hundred pounds were raised. There was talk of using part of that as a reward for whoever located the killers and showing a photo of Robert Thompson as a wanted poster, so I just want to clarify.

Denise doesn't want them to come after them, she certainly isn't encouraging anyone to do that. I think well, I don't know anything about that. You just showed it to me, so it's a mystery to me. Are you going to tell people to watch whatever? The photograph is whether it is Thompson or not, stop circulating it because it is a dangerous thing to start doing so. I would have to tell them that they should not circulate it in Britain if they decided that the Internet was so big that it couldn't be stopped. It's their business. I wouldn't try to tell people what to do.

It certainly wouldn't be done by the Justice for James campaign and it certainly wouldn't be done in this country. If someone overseas wanted to do it, then we could do it. Let's not stop them, the Internet is difficult to control, but so is the feeling of revenge. We have discovered that other teenagers in custody have already been mistaken for Bulger's killers and beaten, and a woman in Wales was mistaken for one of her mothers. People threatened. bomb his house, but it's the photo that Robert Thompson Leon spent two years locked up with him, so check it out, he could be the eyes and the eyebrows, they're like he's poor, it's not that clear, just the face, no you can be sure. man, it's just because of the quality of the photo, yeah I can't really see the face and looking at the face it seems a little delayed here, also it's just a body, but you can't be one hundred percent sure that James Bulger was 10 years. he would be the same age now if they hadn't killed him if his parents will ever be able to forgive only they can decide the problem for the legal system it is much simpler if Thompson and Venables are sure to be released then it is time to let them out.

I'd like to see Robust again, you know, a good guy like you, you know, I'd like to ask them why and what went wrong, you know, could you have come to me and told me what you were doing and you know, I talked to Rob? We wouldn't tell him to leave because there's a reason why everything isn't like that.