The Essentials of Trust and Teamwork in Leadership | Full Conversation

Hi Simon, It is a great pleasure and indeed an honor for us to be able to have you at the Swiss Army Leadership Talks today. Good morning, actually, I think what time is it on your side. It's a quarter past 10 in the morning. Well, good morning, I hope. You've already had your first coffee. I already had about 12 cups. Yes, no, I'm ready. Thank you so much. It's nice to be here. Actually, it was 7:00 p.m. m. in the evening, so welcome to the Swiss Army Leadership Talks, my family, it's a great pleasure and a great honor to have you.

My first question would be, actually, why did they accept our invitation? Well, I work a lot with the US military and more. the years of having a relationship with them I have a true love for those who put on the uniform of their nation um I think uh I know that in Switzerland uh everyone does it um and not like that in the US um and I think that there is a there is a me I think you learn a skill in military service that you wouldn't otherwise learn or wouldn't learn as easily, which is the skill of

teamwork

and scheme, the skill of service and mutual care and recognition of that difficult situations are more.

It is easily overcome when you work together and you know that ours is a world of personal ambitions and I think that military service teaches us a kind of joint ambition, so when you offer the invitation, it was an honor I accept thank you very much again I have read most of your books and one of my favorites is why eater leaders eat less and that's exactly about the military and

leadership

in the military. You've already started to explain a little bit about what makes

leadership

in the Armed Forces different, but So what do you think about camaraderie and what makes leadership really different in the Armed Forces?

From the people's perspective, I will tell you a story of the United States Marine Corps. I had the opportunity to visit OCS in Quanico, Virginia. and the colonel in charge of OCS was supposed to give me a briefing on what they do at OCS and how they train their officers etc. and he was late and I and I know that you know it, but the marines are never late. um um and he came into the room and apologized and said, I'm sorry, we had an incident downstairs, so of course I was curious. I said what happened, what happened, you know, he said, well, it's serious enough for you to know we're. considering kicking one of our marines out of the OCS kicking one of our marines out of the Marine Corps, so I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what crime did this person commit.

I said what does he do. He said he fell asleep at Watch and I said. That's like he falls asleep on guard duty in the woods of Virginia and you're going to kick him out of the Marine Corps so that's a little harsh, don't you think? and he said no, you don't understand when we asked him. about it he denied it when we asked him again about it he denied it again and only when we showed him irrefutable evidence he said quote I want to take responsibility for my actions he said the problem we have is that you don't take responsibility for your actions at the time you get caught you take responsibility for your actions the moment you perform your actions he said we have another marine who fell asleep he admitted it we punished him but we don't have a problem with him and then the colonel went on to explain he says you have to understand if I put this kid in a leadership position in a combat situation and his Marines think for a minute that he's trying to protect himself at the expense of others if he's just trying to advance his own career, confidence will. will do.

Refusing

trust

will be broken and people will die, so I began to understand that what it means to lead, what camaraderie means in these environments, is literally Our lives depend on each other and I don't have to like you, but I do have to. do it. I

trust

you and I think that in the civilian world we confuse those two that I only trust you when I like you and if I don't like you I don't trust you and in this case it is about responsibility, service, not responsibility towards someone's personality, um, and when someone is a good actor, when someone has honor, and this is one of the things that I regret, which is that the word honor isn't really used in the civilian world like we aren't. that word she's honorable he's honorable um but in the military that word still has meaning and it describes someone like I don't like him but he's absolutely honorable um and that's the basis of camaraderie, I don't think you can have true camaraderie Unless you think someone is watching your back, camaraderie is actually another term that's only used in military settings, so in civilian life we ​​don't use it very often.

I think that story was very impressive about trust and leadership has a lot to do with trust, so here right now in Burn we have many leaders, we have leaders from the Armed Forces of the police, but also from the economy, so How do you think the military leadership of the Army can be translated into civilian leadership? bridge or something in common absolutely um, for starters, I think the military is very good at understanding the difference between battle and war, um, what is it, you can fight to win battles, but you can lose battles and still win the war .

Um and you and I believe that the military understands the short game and the long game much better, that is, when you are in action you play to win, but when you are not in action you play to improve and that is why you are military. is in a constant state of constant improvement, how do we improve our systems, how do we improve our training, how do we improve our leaders, how do we make everything constant improvement, fight to win and then come back to constant improvement, and I think in In the civilian world, everyone tries to win all the time and they forget about the long game and the problem is that when we only play the short game, when we only play to win or advance our careers or look like heroes, we actually cause harm. long-term. to an organization that is the opposite of constant improvement and so I think the ability to understand when you're playing a finite game and when you're playing an infinite game the military is much better at that um uh I think in the civilian world especially.

It's a lot of firefighting without considering the bigger picture. Now we talk a lot about Lead Leip and learn about leadership and we all read his books, but what I hear very often from young leaders. They have a lot of pressure on them because they want to be great leaders and when they see that they can't meet this pressure or the pressure that they have or their own impression of how they should be as leaders, they actually break under that pressure, what would you say to them? ? They, most importantly, no one, no one is smart enough or strong enough to do this thing called leadership on their own, leadership is too hard and the great leaders I know know how to ask for help, they know how to lean on someone when they need it. they need. fighting they know how to say um um I don't understand um and that's why I think number one is that there is no great leader without a team of great people around him um uh leadership is a team sport um uh and and thinking You have to do everything only.

You're going to burn out and go broke and ultimately hurt the organization. So ask for help when you need it. Admit that you don't know things when I don't know them um and uh and you find that you are surrounded by people who want to help you and that leads to another question are they actually great leaders, are they born or are they made or can they learn it themselves? Yeah, so it's It's an old question with a simple answer: Leaders are made, um, there is no leadership, Gene, and if you look at all the people that we would consider great leaders, you can see that they had a journey.

I know you all had Journeys Gandhi started out as a lawyer who failed the bar in the UK and moved to South Africa, where he was more likely to pass the bar, I mean, and then saw the injustice in South Africa. If he passed the exam in the UK, there would be no Gandhi. You know, they all took journeys and they all had trials and tribulations that taught them the skill of leadership. Leadership is a skill that can be learned and like any skill, like riding a bike. um if you do it a lot you will be good at it and if you don't do it a lot your muscles will atrophy um there is no such thing as a leadership expert um all the great leaders I have ever met consider themselves.

A student of leadership is constantly reading books about it, watching talks about it, having

conversation

s about it, regardless of how much they have accomplished in their careers, so, every great leader any of us has ever known, followed or admired, I can guarantee you. who went on their own journey, um, so yes, leadership is a practical skill that can be learned, so you said that you learn leadership from the experience you gain, but then you need to have a coach or a mentor to learn. leadership to give feedback and guide you to become a better leader. I think that's an important question.

The answer is, of course. I mean, you can't be a great athlete without a coach. You know that no. Don't you have the same objectivity and perspective on yourself as someone looking in from the outside? So I absolutely believe in mentors and coaches. The most important thing I have found in a mentor relationship is that there is a difference between a mentor and a champion and sometimes I think we confuse those things. A champion is someone who can help your career by speaking well about you. You know where a mentor usually is outside. on the side of your chain of command um a good mentor that they do not have the ability to help you advance in your career, the only thing they can do is be 100% objective and tell you what they think based on how you are acting or what you you're doing, um uh uh, and I think those relationships are mentally valuable because We can't tell them to put in a good word for me.

They don't have any capacity nor do they honestly feel that responsibility, so they have the capacity to be totally objective. They are off the chain. Now you can have a good mentor. within the chain, but the problem is that it's complicated by the chain of command, so I think that good mentors are outside and sometimes even outside the industry, outside your unit, you know, outside your, your, your , MOS, whatever it is, um, uh, because then they don't really know your job, they only know you, but as a leader I don't want to create followers, I want to create other leaders, that means that I will always also be a coach or a mentor as a leader, but then what?

So it's a good mentor or coach, what do I have to do to become a better coach? So I think coaching is not about telling people what to do, it's about helping them see things that they may not see, but ultimately people are responsible for their own. actions and I learned in my own journey when I coached people that when I give them an observation or maybe offer them some insights, if they fight with me or get defensive, I would stand up for myself and tell them no. You're wrong, you're missing out and it would be about me being responsible, so if they don't understand something that's different, uh, but when they're defensive now, if they push back, I'm going, I'm just telling you what I think.

You can ignore me completely, you can throw it away. I'm, I'm just here to help you, but I'm not here to tell you what to do, no, I'm not right, I don't have answers, it's just a point. from your point of view it's just an observation, this is your career, this is your leadership, you do what you believe is right and the moment you put the responsibility on the person that they are responsible for their own actions, for suddenly becomes much more open to coaching and I like to remind coaches that if they go to watch football, for example, the coach is not allowed to run onto the field to play, you know, even if the coach knows what to do , even if the coach knows how to do it.

It is better that the coach is not allowed to play in the game and the same goes for coaching and leadership, that is, the coach is not allowed to make the decision, the coach is not allowed to rush to lead the group. The coach can only stand firm. they stand by and offer what they believe is help to the players. But ultimately, players are responsible for their own behavior and their own decisions. An interesting question about the responsibility of a leader and I very much agree, sometimes Leia thinks that they are the ones who make all the decisions.

Define all the plans and I agree that it is not, it is definitely not Simon. I know you dream of a world where everyone really is a working world where everyone is very enthusiastic, very motivated and I would say that I share that dream, but I also know what we have to do. In the Swiss armed forces everyone is motivated and enthusiastic every day. How do we create an environment like that? Well, I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone. I don't think we can create an organization where every day. motivated and enthusiastic, it's like we love our kids every day, but we don't like our kids every day, you know, it's like we can love our job every day, we don't have to like it every day, we can be inspired inthe job.

Every day we don't have to be motivated at work, every day you know that there are other things that are factors in our lives, so I think the most important thing is that it is a team because no team operates with all the players at the same time. time. highest level every moment of every day is like that, you know, it's like any kind of relationship, um, where we, when, if, if oneThe person is struggling for whatever reason the other players can come to support them and help them. offset any work that needs to be done and they support each other and that's what makes it seamless, it's the fluidity. of being able to lean on each other and the relationships are so good and we start to understand each other that we know when I can intervene, we also know each other's strengths and weaknesses so we know who to connect with because someone is better at this.

It's happened to me that, even as a leader, my personality doesn't reach anyone on my team, they just don't listen to me, but it's my personality, so instead of doing the same thing over and over again, I'll ask someone else to do it. replace because your personality could work much better and does work many times. So I think it's that ability to understand that this is a team, this is a team, this is a team at all times. It is a team that keeps the inspiration and desire to come to work very high and I said at the beginning that we understand that it is one of your dreams, but then tell us the truth how many companies you have seen, including the armed forces, that really already fulfill that dream.

Well, it's an ideal, right? I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work they do. It's an ideal. I know we'll never get there, but I'll die trying. , that's the point and that's why I've met many units within the military and many units that have failed, um uh uh uh, where they are more advanced toward that Vision than others. The same in the corporate world, there are some companies that are much more advanced in that Vision than others and I think the most important thing is constant effort.

For us, we talked before about understanding the infinite game by understanding the idea of ​​constant improvement and those who are making the greatest progress. It's not that they do everything right and make all the right decisions, they don't at all, it's how they deal with it when they make bad decisions or how they handle it when they get pushed back, um and the idea of ​​constantly improving and accepting. that this is a moment in time now let's move forward um, those are the ones that I admire I really like the concept of constantly improving this as you said before it's also in the armed forces we are very used to that so we do what is called a review post-action, but that also has to be on a personal level, not only in the action itself in the mission, but also on the personal level, one of the things that I think works very well in the military.

I think the private sector could learn if the military does the after action review and no one, sometimes the feedback is harsh. um, you know, it's very honest, someone made a mistake, they're going to tell you that you made a mistake, but even if your ego is a little bit bruised, the reason it works is because everyone understands that we're doing this so we can be better. , so that the organization can be better, so that we are more likely to be successful in the future, whereas I think in the private sector. In the industry we're very concerned about someone's ego or hurting someone's feelings, and I certainly don't think honesty has to be brutal.

You know, we talk about brutal honesty. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal, it just has to be honest. Know? I don't have to say you made a mistake, but I know you can do better than today. It's an honest assessment without being brutal, um, but the point is that I think in the private sector we can do a lot. Much better on that, I'll tell you a funny story, like when I go to a military briefing versus when I go to a corporate presentation right at the end of a military briefing, very often the briefer will say Spears Spears in other words, right? at the end of the Briefing tell me what is wrong tell me where I was wrong tell me what can be improved where are the holes in my logic tell me where I can improve we are in the private sector we give a presentation and we are pretty good, pretty good, right, show me, tell me the places we're good at, tell me the places you really like, right, and we get defensive when people poke holes and, again, I think the military better understands the idea of ​​constant improvement, what it means to have Thick skin and being open to criticism and I've learned that I've learned that in my own work I crave criticism now people say oh, that was good, that was great.

I say, no, no, no, tell me, tell me what can be better. I've learned to really enjoy negative feedback because it means I can be better and it comes from people who aren't trying to hurt me, it comes from people who are trying to help me improve my work. I think the private sector can really learn that from the military and now let's turn things around, so what can the military learn from the private sector? So, one of the advantages that the private sector SE has is that they have a less strict formal system. hierarchy, so in the military you know you have to work Pretty much how it is, whereas in the private sector, if you're really talented and a self-starter, sometimes you can lead people older than you, sometimes you can lead people who have been in the OR organization or in the industry. for longer. that you um and uh that's a big plus and I think we're not asking the military to disrupt the traditional hierarchy.

I understand why it works, but I think inviting smart people to the table makes a big difference. I'll give you a real life example. Turns out it's another example from the Navy. I was visiting Camp Pendleton and there was a young Navy captain, a Special Forces Raider, uh uh uh, who was in charge of taking care of me and he was a history student. in college and we started talking while we were in the car and he told me about an experience he had in Iraq, where he was assigned to train and equip a group of Iraqi soldiers, which is really exciting for a young man. . officer, so let's first get everyone a rifle.

Well done, everyone has a rifle. He says, "Okay, now let's get everyone a backpack" and his Iraqi counterpart said, sorry, there are no bags of rocks on the base and the marine said no problem, whoever does your procurement, uh, His requests are obtained, some backpacks and the Iraqi counterpart said: "No, no, you don't understand those backpacks in Iraq, anywhere in the country," so this young officer said: "Well, where do you put the water then ?" and the guy said, "You put it in your." pockets or in the back of the truck, it goes well, let's say the truck is disabled and you run out of water in your pockets, then what happens and the guy says you die and then this young captain remembered his story that in the west it is the way Our armies rely heavily on Roman theories of fighting, consisting of long supply lines to supply forward operating forces, while the Arabs are raiders, they have no supply lines, they leave in the morning with material for a day and fights. and if you win then you eat other people's things and drink their water or if you lose you go back home and here we are in the West trying to undo thousands of years of history of plunderers and turn them into Roman Legions, of course it was.

It's not working and that's because the planners who weren't on the front lines had no idea this was happening, so my question is: I'm not saying make this young captain a colonel, but maybe invite the young captain to sit at the table. to advise colonels um and I think the military can do a better job if you go to your company grade commanders or above and tell them who your smartest people are, they know who they are, they catch those people and let them sit in meetings and advise because I think they would offer a point of view that would otherwise miss a great story.

I like that one, but then I also mention again the ranks that we have in the Armed Forces, like you mentioned colonels, captains, soldiers or non-commissioned officers and then What I experience very often is that the soldier levels are afraid to give feedback to people majors like majors or colonels. How did you experience it? How can it be overcome? So that soldiers have the courage to give feedback at higher levels as well. because also their promotion could depend on the relationship they have and that could also be true for the economy, so giving feedback could always give me a bad situation to be promoted later, which affects the quality of the leader.

Frankly, a leader who recognizes and rewards feedback will encourage more feedback, so if I ask for feedback and say I'm open to it and then someone gives it to me and I defend myself, criticize it, or reject it. So I'm creating an environment where no one is going to give me feedback or at least they're not going to give me feedback, they're just going to tell me how good I am, whereas if someone gives me negative feedback, I won't. I don't have to listen to it I don't have to agree with it, but if I can encourage it, I will go, thank you, tell me more, continue, yes, thank you, oh, this is really useful, thank you, so the leader will create the conditions and if the people I can see that happening if you see a young officer, you know, and by the way, there's a difference between respectful and disrespectful feedback, you know, and to maintain a core ethos and maintain the rank structure, it can be done respect

full

y, sir. .

Can I give you some feedback? Yeah, you can or we can do it later or let's do it in my office, instead of hey, let me tell you what I think is disrespectful because you're not assessing the situation, that maybe that officer. more senior officer or non-commissioned officer have in mind, so can I give you some comments? Asking permission, that's how it starts. Can I give you some comments? If they say no, okay, then I know my place well, but I'm a good, a good leader, a good NCO or a good officer uh or even a good soldier uh because the feedback can also go this way um uh you'll want to receive it. and create conditions where it is welcomed and then it will be encouraged and then what you are doing is creating a culture of feedback where it can go up and down very, very easily.

You can also create some formalized systems where it happens, but informal ones work too. I like the second part of your Actually, please reply too because every soldier or every employee has the possibility to ask for feedback, I'm sure that's good and ask for it like I said before. Know? Can you give me some feedback on how I can improve? Great, well that's not true, there is always room for improvement. Can you tell me I want that? And again, if the leader asks for it instead of just waiting for it to be given to me, the leader says, I'd like feedback on how I can do better. you know, and you create a form for it, in this meeting we are going to talk about what we as an organization can do better or how I can do better as a leader, so I want all your answers and I have done it with my organization where when you have those sessions, even if you agree or disagree, even if the leaders activate, you're basically in reception mode, go ahead, tell me more and if you don't understand, you can ask follow-up questions, but please tell me.

Continue further, yeah, and it's just taking it all in and then the next day when people have emptied their buckets, then you can say okay, yesterday we talked about what we can do better and what I can do better now I want to talk about where. we can do better and what you think you can do to improve this and now it's all positivity and moving forward because I had the opportunity on the Forum to prepare all the garbage so separating those two, I think it's very important to separate the emptying of the bucket and looking ahead because it cannot be done in the same meeting there is also too much emotion um uh uh but a leader who welcomes it and asks for it and creates a form for it creates an environment for it, going back to one of his books, it always begins with the why, so in arm fores we used to give orders to each other, so how can you convey the why in an order, how can you give orders that include the why?

The purpose of the mission, so why is it very simple context and I think that when we give context to people, they better understand the orders that are being given to them. So, for example, move this wall, move this barrier from here to there and then they will do it. I mean, they understand how the rank structure works, but they may not be inspired or motivated, they may not feel like they're contributing to anything, and so they're just offering context, just saying "um, we understand that by having this fence here actually limit the distance we can so that ourtrucks pass.

It's getting harder for them and we can only get through one at a time. So what I want you to do is move it there because we need space. to get more things simultaneously so we can move faster, so move this from here to there, um, and so you're still giving the same command, but by providing the context, you're allowing them to now be innovative because if everything were. What they told me was to move here from there, so what happens if there is a big rock? You know they don't know the reason they were moving it.

Here you ask them to solve problems that include moving the fence, and then you. they will find much more ingenuity if they are in if they are in the loop basically if they understand the context, so I think that is essential when orders are given and look, you know better than me and I think this is very important that the private sector does not understand, but it is very, very important to understand. the private sector thinks the military is all command and control, do this, do what I say, take an order, and that's why they think being a strong leader because they've seen too many movies is barking orders and telling people what to do. , you already know. just like I do that that's part of leadership um where I'm going to tell you a task without any context and you're going to do it but that's reserved for moments of chaos and when there's' In chaos, you're spending time building trust, you're spending time providing context, you're spending time building this kind of core so that when you're in a chaotic situation you can absolutely bark orders and yell and scream because I don't have time for feedback and I don't have time to give context and the following will follow. orders with great motivation because they trust that you would not give them an order that would unnecessarily put them in danger even though they understand that you.

Sometimes we make mistakes, so I think in private sector business we must also learn to adapt: ​​command and control works well in short periods of time and moments of chaos, but it can't be that no one has the energy to endure that in a I see daily and what you are saying is that actually first you have to establish your relationship and if there is a relationship of trust, a relationship of trust, you can also bark or give orders and sometimes this is necessary as in the Armed Forces, but also in aviation or in other environments, sometimes yes, it may be necessary, but you win, you win, it's okay.

I experienced it during I experienced it during covid when covid hit and we went into lockdown my company was going to go bankrupt I mean all our income came from in person we weren't going to survive and I remember I had a meeting with my team and we were kind of from Kumbaya very affectionate, you know, and I said: I care about your feelings if I say something that upsets you. I want to know, but I don't want to know now, tell me in two weeks. I said it because right now we have, we're in survival mode and I don't have the time or energy to deal with all the frilly things that I care about. but we're going to do it later and it worked fine and I went into command control because we had to do it.

It was a time of extreme stress and it worked well because we spent years building trust, so we have Simon like 300 young leaders ncos young business leaders in this room now, what kind of advice would you give them for young leaders to become more senior and grow as leaders? As a final message to our audience here. I think it goes back to what I said before. The most important lesson I learned as a young leader was that I don't have to know all the answers and I don't have to pretend I do, and the most important skill I learned that profoundly changed the course of my career as a leader.

I learn to ask for help and it's amazing that when you learn to ask for help confidently I can't do this and can you help me? But I say, hey, I have no idea what I'm doing, can someone please? help me what am I doing here do you know how to do this because I'm an idiot do you know if you can learn to ask for help with confidence you will it will have a greater impact on your growth as a leader and your growth in your career career than almost anything else being the smartest in the room is not important being the one who is willing to ask for help is the most important thing that was a great closing statement Simon, so thank you very much, it was a real honor, it was a real It was a pleasure talking to you.

I think it was just amazing and there is a lot of admiration for you in Switzerland too, as many of our participants here read all your books and would start reading them if not. I am pretty sure. so thank you very much for spending time with us thank you very much for accepting the invitation it was great thank you very much Simon thank you very much for helping me uh thank you very much for inviting me I really appreciate it um take care of yourself and take care of each other thank you and you too bye