Want To Be A Better Human? You Need THESE Skills | Simon Sinek on Finding Mastery

there's a whole section in the bookstore called self-help but there's no section in the bookstore called helping others we have hard

skills

the

skills

you

need

to do your job and

human

skills the skills you

need

to be a

better

human

being, you know and I I

want

more human skills in the world what we're talking about is not a recipe for success, it's a recipe for staying successful and it's also a recipe for joy while you're successful and the ability to learn your lessons when it doesn't work out. Well, that's what we're talking about, Simon, I'm very excited to have this conversation with you.

You've taken complicated ideas, made them very simple to understand, and provided a great gift to Millions, so thank you for coming, thank you for having me. We're recording this the day after the Super Bowl and I spent nine seasons with the Seattle Seahawks and someone actually came up to talk about the infinite game. I think he almost ran out of business or ran out of room. Didn't it turn out well? It didn't work out well, so I think you probably have an idea why because you've obviously been working hard to fix it, but if you did, if you were facing the 49ers today, yeah, the day after they lost in the Super Bowl Yes, how could you have a conversation about the infinite game?

Good trainers and good owners know how to have an idea of ​​what the infinite game is. Clearly, the game is about winning and losing. and you should play to win, of course, but everyone knows what infinite play is because they talk about team building, you know, and they talk about off the field, so I mean that's all infinite play, you talk about the quality of the human being. You talk about camaraderie and teamwork, that's endless things in the game and it all applies to the day, so I think they have a sense of it, they just use a different language for it, so within a sports franchise you can have part of that. part of this will be the infinite game and part of this will be the finite game finite game if we use the terms, yes, let's let the opera start there, so let's define the terms in the mid-1980s, a philosopher and theologian named Dr .James Cars defined these two types. de Gams finite games and infinite games a finite game is defined as known players, fixed rules and an agreed objective football, if there is a winner there necessarily has to be a loser or losers, but the most important thing is that there is always a beginning, a middle and an end, infinite games.

They are defined as known and unknown players, which means you don't necessarily know who the other players are. The rules can be changed, which means that each player can play however they

want

. New players can join at any time and the goal is to stay in the game. as much as possible to perpetuate the game, obviously, we are players in infinite games every day of Our Lives, whether we know it or not, no one will be declared the winner of the Rockefeller race. John Rockefeller probably thought that probably, I mean, I think there are a lot of people who think that they did, yeah, right, yeah, you know, no one has ever declared the Education winner or the winner of being healthy, right, it doesn't exist and it definitely There is no such thing as winning business, for example, but what I find fascinating is If you listen to the language of so many leaders, it becomes very clear that they don't really know the game they are playing, they talk about being number one, being the

better

or beat the competition based on what was agreed upon, on metrics, objectives and time frames and this is a problem because when we play with a finite mindset in an infinite game, when we play to win in a game that has no a finish line, there are very predictable and consistent results, the most important being the decline in trust, the decline in cooperation, the decline in innovation, like when Circuit City went bankrupt, Best Buy didn't win anything, right, the game Continue with or without the player and new players will fill the space.

In fact, Circuit City was replaced by Amazon, so it changed the whole game. better, but the rules are existential, right, yes, a sports franchise, of course, they want to win, of course, and they understand that winning championships makes money and, you know, helps keep the franchise alive, but there's more to the game that simply. every game, um, and it's very dangerous to think of the infinite game as just winning a series of finite games, that's what Jack Welch used to believe, you know, which is just winning and then winning again and then just winning, that it's just moving the goalposts to the right and that's incredibly unsatisfying, you know, that's like saying if I win a million dollars I'll be happy, okay, that didn't happen, if I win $2 million, I'll be happy, okay, yeah i win 3 million that's what it is it's a series of finite games if you just match the numbers you will get a bonus ok just match the numbers again and for some reason if you keep doing it whether you match the numbers or not , life stops satisfying the emotion of the first two or three times.

When you get good at it, it's no longer exciting and the satisfaction starts to wane, so the infinite game, as applied to a sports franchise, is the joy of coming to work, not just winning the game, sure. you get a pickaxe every time you win. but that's the difference between happiness and joy, right, happiness is fleeting watch a movie go on a date win a game you know have a good meal happy happy happy pleasure pleasure pleasure pleasure pleasure and it's amazing and then it's gone, it's unbelievable and it goes away and the only thing drug addicts can do is the next hit the next hit the next hit or the people who get addicted to money or the people who get addicted to acting the next hit the next hit the next stroke of acting is is is a search for happiness but joy is missing Joy comes from the joy of playing joy comes from the relationships I have built along the way joy comes from knowing that the work I have done is in reality of greater value More than just the money I earn, I am contributing to something bigger than myself, all of this has a purpose, which is why infinite play is difficult to achieve for many high-performing players and very often it is the that are lost when they become very successful during my transition from best sports practices and knowledge of sports psychology to business many times the astute leader will say yes, you know the sport, the sports analogy doesn't quite work.

I say yes, correct, correct and I always say that the sport that type of retention is the Ultram marathoner back to back, so there is the endurance part that they are not interested in many times winning, there are certainly mhm triathletes and Ultras who want to win, but for the most part of the community is like: Did you try it? Did you go to your limits? Of course people want to win, but it is a marathon in itself that there is no beginning and end. It is the pedestrian crossing that I try to make infinite and finite.

The approach is becoming more astute for what we are trying to do, however, in business they need to win, they need to produce, they need to perform to stay in the game, so how do you square those two? You are playing a finite game. in an infinite game that's how you said it, when you play with a finite mindset in an infinite game, then there are always finite games within an infinite game, okay, the two are not mutually exclusive the infinite game. it contains the finite games, so the analogy I like to use is being healthy, right, I want to be healthy, well, no one wins.

Health, right, and there are many things you have to do to be healthy, you have to eat well, you have to sleep enough. you have to exercise you have to have personal relationships you have to have friends and love in your life you know all of these things matter there are probably 30 other things we could list but those are the big four and you will never be a master at all of them simultaneously they go up and they go down and it's an effort, it's infinite, but you can still have finite goals within which I want to lose x amount of weight by X date and you can work towards that goal and you know it perfectly well. you know better than me that metrics matter like humans need metrics that we are biologically designed to achieve things so we continue to achieve things find food build shelter right that's how we love we love dopamine when it's healthy it's very valuable yeah it's right, can you imagine running a marathon without mile markers?

It would actually be disconcerting, so there's nothing wrong with creating a lot of anxiety in people when you say just keep running and you don't know how long or why, right? What we really do in those situations is that we healthy people hedge our bet just a little bit, we run a little bit slower than possible, so you're never really, if you don't know, you're trying to save energy. and so if you want to pick an arbitrary number on an arbitrary date, I want to lose x amount of weight by that fit. and you start and you achieve your goal you reach your goal weight on the right date you celebrate a big hit of dopamine but you have to keep exercising for the rest of your life it's not over as if it were just an event contained within something much bigger it What I find most interesting is what happens if you miss your goal and the answer is nothing, nothing happens right on that goal, but if you miss your two quarters, two quarters in a row, yes, I call it the invisible handshake in sports and the business is that in sports it is usually like that.

More concrete, yes, what is the invisible handshake, is more visible. I should say not for long in the NFL, so if you don't perform well long enough, they ask you not to return to the club and maybe someone else will pick you up for free. Agency in business is a little more subtle, you know, because you can hide a little bit. I know our business friends are going, what do you mean you can hide? Yes, in a multinational you can find ways, you know, but if you do not perform in some metric, they ask you not to be included in this community, bad companies are that dog that you know, where it is only the numbers, you face your own people against each other and you end up building a culture where people will stab each other in the back steal credit from each other because that is the environment they have created and that way they can be successful in the short term this is not the What we are talking about is not a recipe for success it is a recipe for sustained success and it is also a recipe for Joy while you are successful and the ability to learn your lessons when things are not going well that is what we are talking about, the world of dog you're painting, um, will, can, can make it, but he won.

It doesn't last and at some point it will break and it will probably be dramatic or there will be some scandal. Almost every scandal we see in business is not an anomaly. They usually take years to develop if you just stand back and look. the culture when I talk about nothing happening, the reality is that if you have an infinite mindset you can still have goals, but I think what happens is that we don't consider how those goals are achieved correctly, for example, if you have a sales organization or organization that is Very finite minded, hit the numbers, hit the numbers, you can have a promotion, have a sale near the end of the year and you can increase the numbers and you will get it right, but is it a healthy organization with a high functioning team? and in a spirit of cooperation? and Innovation, you know people come and go, they get stabbed in the back, they quit, they get fired every time there are mass layoffs like morale is destroyed, rebuilding takes a lot longer than you know compared to an organization. that still has the goals, but they are also measuring how they achieve their goals, they are measuring the quality of the leadership, they are checking, if they are laying off people and, and, if they are resigning at high levels, which is disruptive and also very costly, they overlook it. the goal but it's just because they choose the wrong date, you can if you look at the trend data, it's not a roller coaster like the other one, but it's beautiful and you like it, oh, you're going to get there in 14 months like Unlike 12 , I can see that without mentioning the fact that oh my goodness this is a high functioning team and that Trend will continue much longer than the other example and that is one of the problems that most organizations ignore my work regardless the fact that it's usually based on biology, anthropology, human behavior and all that, in other words, most of my work is not my opinion, that's how people work well, it's like finite and infinite games , that's how the world works properly.

It's not my opinion, it's true, but the reason most companies don't use my work is because I can't predict when it will work, so, for example, if you say I want to get in shape, I'm great at it. I need you to do it. Exercise every day for 20 minutes 100% you will get fit when I have no idea and nodoctor neither and for some people it will go a little faster and for others it will be a little slower but if you trust the process 100% it is going to work, for example how long does it take to teach your child to ride a bike?

Nobody knows now. Each of us can teach our children to ride a bicycle. It's a process and there are some scraped knees and there are some tears and there is some anger, but if you keep at it, 100% of people will learn to ride a bike when I don't and that's why most of organizations don't use my work because they want it to work on the arbitrary date they chose and they need the arbitrary number to be reached on that arbitrary date, so what ends up happening is you abandon the process for shortcuts and I mean, we see people do it in the health field all the time, as I would like. losing 5 to 8 pounds isn't much but I need to lose 5 to 8 pounds a friend of mine literally told me take o zic I was like for5 she's like yeah take OIC I'm like 5 pounds like that like OIC has side effects or not, it certainly wasn't by design, it's certainly not as good if I'm 30 or 40 pounds overweight, yes, but that's the point, which is the reflex of taking the shortcut for something that isn't difficult.

It takes a little effort and that's a lot of work when I say work I mean going to work like our jobs like none of them are that complicit it just requires a little discipline and because of incentive structures and deadlines we abandon them disciplines and I think it's the same in the way a lot of people live their lives, unfortunately including me because of the way I abandon discipline all the time for a shortcut, but you know, you have to be aware of it, I think at least Spade . shovel, it's a big part of yes, most people know that if we put an apple and an apple pie on a table, which one is healthy, yes, yes, it's the apple, but I always say, but the pie apple is fruit, so I'm going to eat the apple pie, pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation.

Mastery comes in many facets when we think about what it takes to thrive and live a flourishing life, there is no doubt that financial well-being is an important part. From that equation there are many ways to manage your money and here's one that might interest you: facet is the next generation of personalized financial planning. They are on a mission to make expert financial advice accessible to the masses, so facet gives you flexible access to a team of financial planners and a team of experts in retirement planning, tax strategy, estate planning and more, and the The best part here is that instead of taking a percentage of your portfolio, fastet only charges an affordable flat membership fee and does not charge Inviting you to invest with them is extremely rare in the industry as you probably know that most advisors Financiers charge you a percentage of your assets and even if it's just 1%, those fees can really add up over your lifetime and because you Listening to this podcast, Facet is giving you a great deal when you sign up today.

Facet is waiving the $250 sign-up fee for new annual members, plus they have an epic limited-time offer to learn more, just visit facet.gov. Iran and this is not an offer to sell securities or investments. Financial, legal or tax advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future performance. Terms and conditions apply. Let's get back to the conversation. It requires a great commitment to something that must be disciplined over time. Yes. This is where your other work on understanding purpose and living purpose aligned is really important, but let's stay here for a moment, you say people or companies that don't use my work, which means there are some, yes, that do. they do, and I.

I don't know if you can point to them or not, but those companies that deliver on what promise you're aiming for, like what's the one you mentioned, there's more creativity, yeah, SL, innovation, yeah, there's more teamwork. in the blanks is a higher performing organization, what it means is the bet that we're going to work well together, we're going to be better teams, and in return we're probably going to see some wins and performance that is going to be notable, yeah, you're saying that, yeah, yeah, so if you're patient and you don't know when, but it's not like you have to wait 10 years, you know, these things sometimes go faster than you expect, but it's not like you're asking you to follow a process and then you'll have to wait eight more times, it's just not predictable in time, that's the problem if you and, more importantly, it's not even when you achieve it that you will continue to achieve it for longer, that's the biggest thing, it's an interesting bet because that's, a shortened runway is a problem for all businesses, certainly including entrepreneurship, so you're saying yes, if you get some of these. base pillars instead you are playing the infinite infinite game you are more likely to have a longer runway and that is not because the money is not going to run out, but because people are going to work better together they judge the quality of a team by how a boat performs in rough waters, not 100% calm waters, you know, so you know, I think a lot of high performing companies think they're amazing and they think they have the best people on the planet while they're high performing, You know? throw a pandemic at them, throw a scandal at them, throw uncontrollable factors at them, like you know, the supply chain, or a fire somewhere, or a volcano in Iceland that ruins all air travel, show a new technology that you know, like the Internet, that makes your business work. obsolete model now let's talk about how good that team is and the magic teams are the ones that hunker down and do well how are we going to get through this.

A friend of mine who is a general in the Marine Corps says you never know any plan. survive contact with the enemy and I, it's the same in business, you can have all the big plans you want and the career plans you want, whether it's for yourself, whether you know the business plans for your company or your personal career, nothing survives reality, you know, we're not. in control to have guiding principles that are bigger than the path. I'll give you an analogy, so my whole career when I worked for corporations my criticisms were always the same um Simon, you have no focus, right um and my whole life.

My teachers, my parents, everyone would like you to concentrate properly and there is a great irony is that I am actually more concentrated than most people. I am only focused at a distance, that is Far Beyond the Horizon, which means that for me the path is flexible I am agnostic as the path I take to reach a very fixed point in the distance, a world in which the vast majority Of people wake up every morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day satisfied with the work they do, most people are very, very focused on the path they have chosen correctly, so the analogy would be : "you leave your like you, you leave the house in the morning and you see your neighbor packing up his car and you They'll be like Hey, where are you going, they look at you, you're going on vacation, you're like, oh great, where are you going? and They said vacation, you say, no, no, I understand, but where are you going, it's like, I told you vacation.

I say, well, then you're fine, well, how are you going to get there? Well, I'm going to take 95 and I have. the goal of driving 150 miles a day, and that's how most of us live our lives, which is what we want to have on a successful vacation, you know, moving forward, it's all these amorphous goals, like just saying vacation, I don't do it. They are, they are not a destination, it is just something and then we plan our routes. I'm going to win this amount of money. I'm going to do this and I'm going to drive 150 miles and we're all very proud of ourselves and we reached our goal or I drove 200 miles a day.

I'm ahead of the goal. As I do? You even know which road you are driving or you don't even know where you are going and what happens if a new opportunity appears. You don't know which way to go now. I am the complete opposite. You know it's me. I'm in Los Angeles, I'm trying to get to California, and I'm trying to get to New York, right? Let's pretend it's an infinite goal, you know, it's not finite, it's very far from some Vision in the future, so I know I have to go. du East, but what if the highway is blocked?

Well, I'll take a back road that goes in the wrong direction and everyone thinks I've lost concentration because I'm going in the wrong direction, but I know I'd rather take a slow, short route that gets me back to where I'm going instead of sitting around in traffic or if someone says I have a plane, do you want to come with me on the plane. I wonder which direction the plane is going to where most people are. They go like airplanes that go fast, yes, and that's why they say yes to things they shouldn't say yes to and no to things because they are slow or seem to drift and, therefore, yes, sometimes very focused people concentrate on the path with there is no sense of the destination and I would prefer that people have a very clear sense of the destination and you will discover a path, that's why there is innovation, well said, well done, everything fits together very well, so I thought about this. surprise me, surprise me with that thing about people saying vacation and I was like oh that's the enlightened one who says says I'm going where you're going I don't know I'm just leaving I was falling in love with that amorphous there's no end point like I'm going to explore life, yeah, and I thought that's what you were going to do and he said no, no, there's nothing Buddhist about it.

No, it certainly wasn't right H3 Horizon 3 type of thinking, which is what you're talking about. and then you're realizing that it's a destination, so normally Horizon 3 is certainly very far away and for me, when I think about h 1, H2 and H3, that H3 tends to change when I get to H2, so It doesn't change during Although you're like it's New York, it's like this, this is what idealism is right. This is what Vision should be. Most people when they talk about Vision. I think what they mean is a big, hairy, audacious goal, yes, you know, it's difficult, distant, achievable.

You know, the true View is as if all men are created equal. I mean, we're still discovering that 250 years later, like true vision, it's an ideal state of the world that doesn't exist yet and we call it Vision because I can. see it in my mind I can paint a picture it's a bright place sit on a hill like that you know and we'll never get there but we'll die trying what's the point this is one of the fundamental practices that I use in sports psychology is simply spend a little time, let's clarify, push our seats back if necessary, from the desk, what is the vision that you have of yourself and then, many times, I need to refine it.

Don't do a postc race just yet, we'll get to that soon, but what is the vision you have for yourself during this phase? It invites the imagination, so it's using the imagination to see a compelling future, so my vision of myself is hooked. my purpose, but they're quite different, so my vision is a world where people thrive and I think something you just said there for your vision is actually pretty close to that. I wouldn't know why you invited me and I said Yes, there is something because because we are, there is cooperation here, yes, of course, and when I first presented your work and my work, they both contribute, there is a greater good for the same vision or similar vision , say your vision again, uh.

I imagine a world, so I use my imagination, right, because that's where it exists, that's how it happens, right. I imagine a world in which the vast majority, I say vast majority, because everyone is not realistic, everyone is G to be, no, that is not true. great in which the vast majority of people wake up every morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day satisfied with the work they do now doesn't tell you what I'm doing doesn't tell you how I'm going To get there, I've done certain bets, like I think leadership matters because I think that if we bet, build, support and celebrate leaders who are good leaders, then we are more likely to build that world.

I've bet on something. called human skills like we have hard skills, the skills you need to do your job and human skills, the skills you need to be a better human being, you know and I want more human skills in the world. I like to say there's a whole section in the bookstore it's called self-help but there's no section in the bookstore called helping others this is my problem with the self-help industry like in 1980 it was all about me yeah and now it's like out for what reason I know I'm talking about The only thing that helped the self-help industry is itself, I mean, it started as said in the mid to late 1970s and if you look at the growth curve of the self-help industry is huge and if it were working it should be in decline. that's a good take, that's a really good take, yeah that's right, I should close the deal.

Yeah, I mean, the only argument you can make is that it would be generational, in which case it should berelatively flat. Yeah, that's really good, right? I have to continue training someone, yeah, oh my gosh, when we were publishing the book, they said, "You know, this is going to land on self-help." I was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm doing this." but that's where your stuff is too, no, my, I write about leadership, no, I write philosophy books cleverly disguised as business books, they really are, they're in business, they're in the business section, it's just that you, that, makes its way. the world of self-help which is fine, but cousins ​​at some point what is it that they are cousins ​​leadership and self-help the decisions I made were strategically correct because if I put a self-help book nobody in the business will read it, but if I put If you put a company, a book about business or leadership, then business and Leadership people will read it and self-help people will read it with your vision as clear as it is and you opted for MH leadership and want to improve or increase human skills do you have a handful of human skills you would like modern leaders to master more?

Oh that's a good question you know I think there are some real basics the most important one is listening we are very bad listeners you know ask any spouse how your partner is doing they are good listeners and I would say most would say There is room for improvement, you know, it's us. You're bad at listening at work, so I think listening is number one. I think how to have effective confrontations you're going to have disagreements regularly, that's okay and a lot of people avoid confrontations and it's not because they don't like confrontations because they don't know how to do them.

Confrontation doesn't have to be confrontational, it doesn't have to be aggressive. He may actually be quite attractive, but something has thrown me off and I want to tell him. you about it, it's a skill, how to have difficult conversations, there's a good one. I saw this after George Floyd, where the number of leaders who reacted to George Floyd was that they didn't do anything, it's not because they're bad people, it's because they didn't have the ability to have difficult conversations and that's why they were so afraid of saying the wrong thing. or provoking a situation or triggering someone who just chose to do nothing and it's a shame because those conversations had to happen but they didn't have the skills or giving and receiving feedback there's another one, right, most of us like to give feedback the way we like to get feedback the way I like to get feedback just tell me please don't don't confront me you know a feedback sandwich please because I know you're lying to me for the good you're being serious about the bad and you're lying to me for the good, just tell me right, so the way I give feedback is the way I like to receive it.

One of the results is that not everyone likes to receive feedback that way, so you have to learn how to adapt to feedback in training and we will say that we will do this with most of the teams that I work with, whether business or sports. We'll have a kind of roundtable about how you want to be trained, yeah, and then people say, Oh, what do you mean? Well, we all need to be trained. It's a basic assumption, how do you want to be trained? uh and there are some kind of public or private doors that they go to uh public yeah no that's fine I mean private can take too long oh so do you want it now in real time or do you want it after the meeting or do you do you want I know within 24 hours, all right, yeah, so we just walk them through a couple of doors and then if they can tell that to their teammates, now there's a deeper partnership on how they're going to take care of each other to achieve what is shared. purpose and being curious in that way, by the way, happens in all your relationships and this is what I love about teaching these skills at work, I mean, if we teach these skills at work, what you get is better teams and, by the way, better, there is a difference between a team and people who work together there is a difference between a team and people who play in the same organization, you know, a group and a team are not the same, right, yeah, and by the way, sorry for interrupting. teams are weird I agree with you teams are weird for high performing teams are even more R for all the reasons we're talking about that's right, the fascinating thing is that high performing teams are not obsessed with winning until that the great coaches are in the game properly, you know, eh, Wooden Coach K, the strange thing is that none of them were obsessed with winning and yet they became the winners, most of the coaches, in fact, John Wooden said, "I wish I could get a little closer to all my friends.

I wish them all." from my friends to have a championship and from all my rivals to know what it feels like to have back to back in other words, as if it were heavy, as if it were very difficult to handle and maintain, someone is going to correct me on the exact quote, but that idea is like I want you to get a win, yeah, I want everyone to get a win, you know, but back to back is very difficult, he was a relationship coach exactly and for, and if you ask them, they want their people to prosper. and they want their people. create to build a team rather than just a series of high-performing players.

I mean, we know dream teams aren't all that dreamy, we know that and the surprising thing is that it's only for clearing companies that are low on investment. I bet it's an investment, right, bets, I put money in, they spin the wheel, I win or lose, right, that's the financial year, right, or the right quarter, I take bets, but investment is like, well, I'm going to put money into this capital and I'm going to hold out for 20 years and we'll see how it goes, so if I invest in my people, you'll start to see growth on that investment, but for some it's faster and for others it's slower and others will prosper. very quickly and some may take a couple of years, but the point is that you are creating magical teams of people who feel that, because they are human, someone cares about them and cares about their personal growth and they reward you with effort and love and loyalty and patience and when things go wrong they stick with you because that's how Human Relations works, it's the same in our personal relationships if you make someone feel safe in your personal relationships and then you screw up big time they will work with you to get over it this food M in fact infidelity according to research is not the reason why marriages end well big things are not the reason why relationships end it is the accumulation of Mil Cortes yes, it is true, you know, and no I'm defending what I just did.

He said no, no, but the point is that a healthy relationship can really function through extreme stress, while what appear to be healthy relationships end up breaking down because of a thousand cuts you didn't make, the force of the tinsel wasn't there. Yeah, you had a line in your book about rewarding selfish high earners like that, that's what managers or coaches sometimes do: we throw money at them or move them up an org chart or give them the captain's job because They are the one who wins the most, the one who scores, but they are actually quite selfish individuals, and when you have one of them on the team, it is an interesting thing that can happen, that is, you will keep him in the circle because he is winning for you or for her, but the team will have to unite around that selfish person, whatever it is, and then that person will never really feel part of a team, because now they are a little marginalized, which inflames the condition, and the other Let's call it No. 19 whatever the size of the group could be 1900, it's not more, it's more intimate.

I'm thinking the sport right now is that they want that person on the team as long as they keep scoring, but as soon as the going gets tough. Not them, we don't want them. I have never met a coach yet who hasn't told the egoist who makes a lot of money once they let that person go say why didn't I do it sooner M why why are they and the team we say what took you so long yeah why are you so scared why was I so scared so when you think about great teams, what are some of the ways that you would help a team be great, first and foremost, if someone has a performance? problem um and in the same way, if they have a personality problem, then sometimes you have a high performer with low confidence, I mean, it's more dangerous than a low performer with high confidence, it was my number one door for the section SEL in professional teams.

I would help with the selection and it's the way the Navy Seals choose who advances in their organization for a long time, but the thing is we're talking about investment, which is what I love to frame investment versus gamble. a totally different contour and both have value, but do it with your eyes wide open. Bets are short-term and there's nothing wrong with a bet, but you can't, you can't build a long-term thriving organization just, yeah, you know. Unless you're cheating, which is what organizations do too, you all know they manipulate the numbers to some extent, you know, wait, how do you do that?

Anyone can have whatever metric they want, oh anyone, anyone can be number one, it's like my favorite. This is like Airlines, like wow. I love airline advertising, it's my favorite thing in the world because it's like you know it's number one, it says so in the ad and if you look at the fine print, it's like it's based on a 5-year period. years. you know Global Airlines about the same size as he likes you know it's like the fine print is magic o o o o financial advertising you know past performance is no guarantee of future profits and they like number one this and you Always look at what Although they chose the conditions, it is as if everyone can choose their own metrics in each company.

I love talking to CEOs. I mean, this is the finite mentality, they say, but Simon, you don't understand, we, actually. you're number one and my answer is for now for now yes for now now like you're the best for now yes like the Super Bowl was yesterday Kansas City is the best for now for now yes and there was another metric hanging on that The Cowboys They're valued at 9 billion, which is the highest valuation, and I think the Kansas City Chiefs are at 7 billion, so they're almost there, but when you look at the total value you're suggesting that what I'm suggesting is that that's one way you could measure success if you wanted to and you're saying for now yes, I mean the and to go back to your original question, which is how do you lead people and so on.

Me, when someone is a high performer and low confidence or a high confidence and low performance person, I have a problem in both and first you train, or you train the personality problem. I mean, I don't know who plays the role of him. be an option but they may have had bad role models or left an organization that only incentivized performance above all else and that's what they became good at or not, I just don't know their history so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they can be taught that they can be trained the underperformer the same I don't know maybe there is a skills gap maybe I have them in the wrong job maybe they are nervous, there is a trust issue , but all that is is that I can train both and for me the time to say that I don't think this is going to work and I want you to find happiness somewhere else is if someone proves to be that.

Now it's not possible to train of course there are always exceptions like you have an amazing skill set and for a job I don't have you know it or you just know it sometimes it's time to try something new because you're not happy and I I can't. It doesn't help you, you know, but for the most part, those tend to be outliers. They are all trainable and the time for me to ask someone to leave the organization is if they prove that they are untrainable, we would say in sports. we train them until they can't or won't, yes, that's a better way to put it, it was much more concise, although I'm going to start saying it that way, yes, it's much better, but well, the point.

However, the same thing is that there is some barrier that someone overcomes and they will tell you when they no longer want to be trained or simply cannot do what is required of them, but that is why it is good. Leadership matters because when you create an organization that has psychological safety built into what you're doing, you're creating conditions where people can raise their hand and say, I made a mistake, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm struggling, I'm having problems at home, my kids, FL, they're not going to school and it's affecting my work, like you, you know, you can bring that to work and tell someone, whether it's a colleague, a leader, and what .

They will welcome you with their support, but if you create an organization that has no psychological safety and where performance is at all costs, no one is going to reveal any of those things because they are afraid that it will get them fired or harm them. their promotability or they have personal problems like that that makes memakes it sound weak, you know, this third vulnerability is becoming popular in business now, but the word scares a lot of people. I don't want to be vulnerable, it doesn't mean weak, right? It means I'm revealing shortcomings or errors or mistakes, but I can do it with confidence and I think this is what people miss.

I'll just give you an example. Can they achieve any of these things? Trust versus lack of trust, so, for example, I need you to be vulnerable. um, no, no, I don't know, I don't know how to read it p&l um, so I don't know if I can, I need, I'm going to do it. I need help, right, this person isn't going to last long, that doesn't inspire confidence in any of the people we work with, right, you may have the same skill flaw, right, hey, I know you're G to find this funny, but I never learned to read a p&l.

If someone could show me how to read a p&l. I'll learn it and we won't have any problems, but for now we're not going anywhere until someone can tell me how to read this damn document directly. In one case you are terribly insecure due to lack of ability and in the other you simply possess it, so being vulnerable doesn't mean being insecure being vulnerable just means I'm going to tell you something I don't know this is where I am I keep coming back to the athletes and why that's your thing well yes and no but it's a base from which I get a lot of My vision is that I was in Pro Sport for about 20 years and then I got into big business 11 years ago and I thought: how are they doing it?

Yes, how are they doing it? How are they working the way they do? "You are grinding, I mean there is no recovery in the M place, they are not, the passion is not clear, you have no stations, yes, there are no stations, uh, they are exhausted, they are on double shifts every day, two days, every day, as I could." I don't think so and it was, it felt like there were these balloons left and right so I could go look for them, it was so much fun. One of the things that athletes do extraordinarily well is that they are able to manage the Gap and that Gap is between their current state of ability and their desired state of ability and everyone knows what that gap is and they got the people who associate with They be explicit and then develop a plan, so for this scenario that you just created, everyone would know that there is no secret, yes, so the vulnerability is actually the opportunity where we can see you bad in that, yes, Pretending like you don't, that's right, that's stupid, yeah, sure, please stop doing that and by the way, we'll get you out of reading spreadsheets and put you in here. because you're a great Storyteller and that's why we're going to find a way to solve this together we don't put athletes in compromising positions look lying, hiding and pretending unfortunately that's how many people are forced to come to work hide and pretend, yes, Lying, hiding and pretending is how many people are forced to come to work because of the reward and incentive structure or worse the punishment structure, if you reveal any of these things you risk losing your job or being not be promoted. or someone else promoting before you because you know they are faking it better than you, so you know the great teams and you know this is one of the good things about sports: we all know something is wrong because you can't hit the ball well like I can.

I can see it right where you know. We can lie, hide and pretend much more easily than in sports, so in sports you can't get away with it, so what we do is what we do. To fire them, we help them work on it and first we help them regain their confidence, because a depression is a terrible thing, it is mainly psychological because they have the right skills, so every sports team knows that there is a psychological component and sometimes there is a skills component that is fine and yet in business we just yell and scream at people or fire them because they are poor performers or we don't promote them but we don't recognize that there is a psychological component and sometimes there is a skills component, usually the first.

So good leaders good leaders know that they know that good leaders know that I I have been saying that modern leadership will be marked by the ability to apply basic psychology and that is what I am and the key word is basic, basic, this. It's nothing advanced, it's not true, this is not psychotherapy, no, this is psychology 101, that's exactly right, basic functions of a human being, that's right, if someone feels seen and understood, they will love you forever, it's Well, do it again, see if anyone feels seen. I heard and understood well, I have to use that now they will love you forever that is really, you are absolutely right, well that's it, yes I exist, you know I will be wrong with the numbers, but there is data that shows that when someone is ignored.

At work there is something like 80% disconnection. I don't remember the number, but it's exorbitant if someone gets yelled at right away. It's something like a 40% disengagement, whatever that is, and if someone is given a compliment for a skill they have, it's something like a 7% disengagement, in other words, getting yelled at is actually better. than to be ignored because at least you know I exist and that's what I mean, it's funny, it's terrible, you know, that's how bad it is terrible, yeah, if you were to design a little bit of a training protocol or a basic skills requirement for the leaders what would be the three to five things that you said listening, we talked about them, I think listening is the most important, um, and listening is a compound skill, right, because it requires patience. it requires empathy like you can't just be a good listener without being curious and like it's a compound skill it's harder than it seems.

I'm kind of cheating because I said one, but it's actually like YES, you know, and like me. I said before, I think difficult conversations are huge, effective confrontation is huge and for me I had to get feedback, it's the other. I had a colleague who couldn't take feedback as well as I would. I would give feedback and sometimes it would deteriorate into an absolute shouting match, right, I mean, and you, something really has to escalate for that to happen properly and what I was doing was giving feedback the way I like it. do it right, but it turns out it wasn't working.

It went really well, so I did what you suggested when with your training, which is to say, I literally interrupted mid-fight and thought this is clearly not working. Can you tell me how you want to receive feedback? I'll do it anyway. "I want to do it right and what she told me was going. I need you to prepare me well. You can just say, 'Can I give you some tough feedback now?' and she says yes or no, or I need you to schedule it on my calendar like we did." ". We will have an SE feedback session on Thursday at 3 o'clock.

Are you available? As long as she did it, it was surprising how much she could endure. He could take stronger, harder-to-listen feedback than almost anyone on the team. as long as I prepared it and scheduled it, but that was because I asked yes and where is it and remember that I am in the position of authority and there are many of us that are in that position of leadership, which means that I have someone who is not taking feedback because I don't give them the way they can hear it, but now I have created a narrative in my head that they can't accept feedback and that they are a problem child and they fall down, they underperform, the corruption of the dynamics of power because you choose the narrative and they are subject to your narrative, right, they have to conform to your incompetence and I think that happens terribly too often, yeah, and the One thing that is incredibly dangerous in an organization is gossip, right , and I know a company where gossiping is a fireable offense, which I love.

We know that sometimes employees get together after work and vent about their boss and I think it's very important to vent in a healthy way. you should be able to vent and complain about work. I think that is nothing more than creating narratives about someone like the number of people who tell me that they have a poison. Actual examples of real toxicity are actually much less than we think. I'll give you a perfect example, it's because everything is narrative, so I went for a walk with a friend of mine who was having a hard time at work and that's how the conversation started.

My boss is a horrible person, she is a horrible person and she. She goes on telling me you know the whole story of what's going on at work and I interrupted her I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, she's a horrible person, she's a horrible person. I also abuse her children and kick her dog, no. okay, so we don't know she's a horrible person, we know she's a horrible leader, okay, that's all we know, yes, that's narrative, yes, that's really good, but we also do it in leadership, True, a group of leaders gather for their leadership meeting. or whatever, someone's name that's on the team comes up and someone says oh, that's so lazy, my God, that guy's an idiot, right, oh God, damn Debbie, down there, and now that's the narrative between all the leaders, leadership and so every time that person a name comes up, someone still goes.

I know why he hasn't attacked him as lazy right now. All leadership is going to treat that person as lazy, stupid, disconnected, indifferent, and that's why it's very important and we're all guilty of it, no one. We have all done it, there is a healthy engine to vent and form narratives about people and/or their motivations and the reality is that we do not know, that is why it is very important that if you find yourself in a group of people, someone begins to create a negative attitude. narrative about someone, someone has to interrupt you, that may be the case or they are having difficulties, we are not guiding them well, we are not training them properly, we have not given them any feedback, like you know an organization that is so passive-aggressive all They are very nice everyone is very nice and if you are fighting on a team no one will tell you what you are doing wrong they will just move you to a different group which is a disservice to someone so someone really ends up having this mediocre career not because they are stupid or bad, it is because no one has ever given them the feedback to improve horrible, now it is also the other way around and you already mentioned this before, and that is that you can also exaggerate the positive narrative. you heroize someone oh oh my god she is the best oh my god she is a genius I don't know how we manage without her she will just take care of everything and the problem is that now we all start treating that person as the hero in the team and it can go a number of ways, sometimes they start to believe that the press and egos are ruined or sometimes they make a mistake and we don't really know how to give them feedback because now we are scared to death. make them leave or get angry because we have turned them into Heroes and the reality is that it is very dangerous to create heroes or villains on your team, that is all very good narrative, now I am not saying not to celebrate people, I am not . give people harsh comments, but if there's a band, if there's a ceiling on the floor, just lower it a little bit, get away from the sun, you're Icarus and get away from the floor, there's a demon down there, you know, get closer. in the middle, give people credit for what they do, help people get feedback when they need it, but there are no heroes or villains, those are very rare on a team, they exist, they absolutely exist, but be very careful, I like it for many.

One of the reasons you're talking is you're talking about loving the person and training the behavior, yeah, whether it's a human skill or a technical skill or whatever. I love that and also when I was with the Seattle Seahawks when We're at our peak when we're at our best when our noses were pointing in the same direction together, your peaks, it was incredible and one of the peaks, I mean, I know it was fast , although it was also pretty good, so when did it happen? What was happening is that we were very clear that in the hallways we were never going to, that's never too big a word, um, we were great about not talking about someone who wasn't among us, yeah, and it was a we. disciplined, we would ask for discipline if that person is not here, like you know, keep it moving like we don't have to tell them to their face, be able to confront them if it's difficult, you know, and what ends up happening is people start to really feel sure, yeah, because they're not worried about what's going on in that conversation there, like that's about me, yeah, yeah, it's really and by the way, that's a very good standard that is in private conversations that you're in.

I'm not actually going to say anything about someone that you wouldn't say, you wouldn't look someone in the face and tell them that you're stupid or lazy, you wouldn't, um, that person who fights is totally legit, you know, um, I'm Me I worry about her, it's totally legitimate, but I think that's a great standard. If you want to know where the floor and the ceiling are, if you wouldn't tell him to his face, then you're out of the band and I like it. in the tool you provided, which is let's saya little bit, but I can choose, I have some choice and, therefore, if I have a difficult situation that could include your employment law, which is Existential Law, I want you very involved in that conversation and it is not a threat, it is a conversation about a situation that I find myself in and as a leader and person with the power to make decisions in this situation, I don't know what. doing it is fine so I'll tell you I'm stuck and I don't know what to do instead of leaving you out of this and making my decision you submit to my decision and I think that's it.

It's amazing to give agency to one of the best bosses I've ever hoped for, wait, I want, yeah, don't forget the story, okay, I'm not sure we can give it, I'm not sure we can give agency, someone has to do it. Oh, I see what you mean. You can create the condition, you can allow the conditions, but someone has to be able to get in the ring. I think we already have agency and the conditions, even if they are unfavorable, the person is going to do it, oh, I see the look, I see the look. Go on, go on, because this is now getting complicated, yeah, it's multifaceted, let me give you a simple, tell me the scenario and then, and then, and then I'll throw a spanner in the process or a little grease, a little grease , there is a bird. analogy there, maybe a worm, yes it's getting that bad so I'm an optimist, some are late to meetings more often because they always think they'll be on time and as an optimist I'm usually within 15 minutes.

Acceptability rage, but usually above the start time. um, I'm fundamentally an optimist, uh, I earned it and I know you have a view on optimism that I can't wait for, so I'm keeping the warm analogy because you remind me of that. Once I was late to a meeting and when I came in a few minutes late someone raised their head and very aggressively said: you know, Simon, the early bird gets the worm and I looked up and said the early worm eats it and then I I sat, I'm sorry, God, so agency, oh agency, so leaving was or not leaving, but um, providing agency, so.

I'm going to use the word leave as an analogy or as a crosswalk, is that the Seattle Seahawks reporters would tell Coach Carol and me what the culture is that we're trying to create together with everyone. Of the other coaches and athletes they would say wow, you guys really let people be themselves here no, we won't let anyone be themselves, we're trying to understand who they are and then we celebrate all that, so don't let that be a very big word. controller. and you know why leaving is fair because it's not. I agree with you and understand what you are saying about your organization, but the reason the word leave is fair is because those reporters work in an organization where they are not allowed to be themselves. which is crazy, whereas the opposite of allowing what is right, so they are not allowed to be themselves and therefore they are edited and edited, pushed back, trampled, no They are seen, not heard, that is why they work for newspapers, television and radio stations. seasons, so when they say boy, let them beat themselves up, that's long, they're talking about longing, that's right, it's a fair statement, but we wanted to correct course, we won't let anyone be themselves, we are disciplined in our approach to know. who they are and then celebrate it the same with I don't think we give agency, we can, we can take it, we can, but that's the problem because we and we can create conditions that make it very, very difficult for someone to flex their agency, yeah. but it's kind of like empowerment, we don't give empowerment, I don't give you power, you have power, so this is why I'm stressed with your line of thinking stressed acutely stressed not minor minor uncomfortable mhm the reason why that we can have this conversation, what is it?

Can we have this? I can tell you about my childhood. No no. Here's why I'm a little stressed out about this line of thinking, which is that you're making it one-sided and the reality is that we're social animals and yes, you've got it. in quotes agency over yourself decision making power over your actions and how you present yourself dad d d but we work in social environments and we are social animals and we respond to the environments we are in, take a good person, you put them in a bad environment that person will act hateful, you know, and vice versa, prison or you will take someone who is not considered trustworthy and you will change their environment and that person will rise and shine in a way that no one expected, so I don't do it.

I think it's fair to say that people either have it or take it away, it's both. I think it goes both ways, like I can make you have nothing and I can also help create the conditions where you're allowed into it at the same time. You can lean on it, whether it was given to you or not, and you can also hold onto it, whether the opportunity is available or not. Yes, as leaders we can foster an environment that is incredibly powerful for people to express their agency. Yes how much? What they want to express is a choice they make and this is the great indices of historical greatness those are the ones who even in the most deplorable hostile conditions flexed the agency yes and those so if they can do it if Victor Frankle can do it Yes, I think that I can do it, so I am inspired by those who are able to do that and I want to understand the internal conditions, yes, that have allowed them to express High agency in some of the most deplorable conditions that it will ever reach, yes, the modern and modern void and Victor Frankle, who was on the borders during the second world war and couldn't understand why all these people suffering the same conditions, the same uphar conditions, why some had the will to live and some didn't and now we know from his writings that you know we can't, we can't choose the conditions, but we can choose our reaction to those conditions and we can be clearer about our why and we can be clearer about our why and I think the value of those examples it's because they're so extreme that most of us don't work, you know, we'll never get close, thank God, and that's a profound idea and the point is, no.

No matter what our conditions are and I think what we're talking about, it's a difficult conversation to have these days because the agency bedfellow is a limit, well, that's great. He was going to be a responsible bedfellow. It's a great framework bedfellow for the agency. is that I said limits, limits, limits, right, I like it, I was going to be held accountable and this is what I mean and why it is a more complex conversation than 20 years ago it would have been because this term Limits have been discussed and people like me and people like you talk about these terms and cling to them and use them as swords instead of shields.

What do you think? In a work environment, you will usually find a younger employee, but no no. exclusively, which is: you are not respecting my boundaries or I have boundaries and I declare that they are not statements, that they are correct conversations and there is also irony in some of these conversations because they think they are expressing agency by setting boundaries. Setting limits, that's right, but are you also willing to obey someone else's limits? That's great, so I'll give you a real life example that appeared in Co, a young employee working for a company. High performance worker who builds great companies, she takes wonderful care of them and she quits. and at the exit interview they say what's going on, we didn't see it coming, she says um, I'm exhausted and the company says what, like we know her workload, we know like we know right now is a very stressful time, but exhausted , which turned out to make no sense what was happening.

This person was empathetic. This person was a very good listener and during Co especially, you know the way we used to work is we go to work and then after work we go out with our friends and blow off some steam. about work or everything else that is happening in our life that was taken away from us, yes, so what happened was generally younger, but not exclusively, people found empathy in the team and that person always said yes to the phone call and always being there to hear sometimes affirming not necessarily good narratives about boyfriends, girlfriends, work life, bosses, colleagues, whatever and these poor, these poor empaths were taking on the stress of everyone else at work until the point of exhausting them, right, and I, I, I told this story on stage once and a young man.

The employee came up to me and said, "Oh my God, I'm doing that like there's someone on my team that I go to with all my problems." My boyfriend has problems with my problems at work and they are always there to help me. I'm doing that and I said. Yes, you've built your boundaries, you've told work, I'm not doing this or that, and yet every day you're violating someone else's boundaries, what do you think? Yeah, so I like what you're doing. do here, yeah, it's good, so it's a complex conversation because the agency is these and again, I think the mistake of all this leadership performance, all the books, all the authors, all of us, all the podcasters , the huge.

The mistake with this is that we usually talk about these things in isolation, like you have to do this, you have agency, don't be the victim, whatever it is, set your boundaries, they tell you, but the problem is that we are social. , everything is interactive, you know that the The way we present ourselves The way we act has an impact on other people's feelings. Life works and yet we are responsible. You know, it's like if I said something bad to someone and it hurt their feelings. I have to take responsibility. I am not responsible. the way you feel you're actually like you're an idiot and you made me feel bad because you talked about something that's my insecurity and that's not nice so this is the paradox of being human and it's the paradox of being a leader. or an employee or whatever it is every moment of every day we are both individuals and a member of a group I love that we are both an individual and I am in a family I am in a relationship I am in a team I am in a church I am in a community true and every day I am a sapien I am a sapien every day I have to weigh decisions, some inconsequential and others very important.

Do I put myself first at the expense of the group or do I put the group first at the expense of myself and the answer is yes, it's a paradox and there's a whole school of thought that says no, you always prioritize yourself over the group because if you're not healthy you can't support the group and there's a whole school that says no, you always prioritize the group because If they don't care about you when you are in a time of need, they will not be there for you and the answer is that is the answer, this is one of the reasons why being human is uncomfortable, confusing, complex and complicated because nothing That's clear, but there's only one thing: I know it's you and you're one of many every moment of every day, now go ahead and live a life and this.

It's hard and that's why leadership is hard because we teach people how to be good at their jobs and we don't teach them to take care of other people and that's what makes any team or company great. That is incredible. I love what you do. What we are doing here is very clear, well done and that is my big complaint about most of this leadership theory and by the way, Maslov was wrong, Maslov's hierarchy of needs is correct, he puts at the bottom food and shelter and on the third level you have Human Relations. now belong belong now I have never heard of anyone committing suicide because they were hungry.

I have heard of people who have committed suicide because they felt alone. Belonging seems to be more important without the mistake he made and because of the way he expressed himself. -upgrade at the top like you literally get to the top of a pyramid and look down at all the UN upgrade people. I'm serious anyway, God, you're only half right if you only think of us as individuals 100% true food and shelter absolutely comes first and belonging comes later and we should work for self-realization as individuals, but the problem is that we are also members of groups which means in that scenario belonging comes first and food and shelter are probably number three and at the top is shared updating which is the purpose at work and that's why when Sacha speaks, I want you to find your why so you can have self-actualization.

I want us to know our why, because if you work here you will have a shared update and that is why we get along and that is why Mas is half wrong and half right, I never heard it, I never heard your opinion, I never heard this version and It's going to cause me a dilemma because I like it more than right, and I and I, he's fine, he's only half right. I never heard that he just never considered us, he just never considered us as social animals, except as a stepping stone as an individual, yeah, that's interesting, yeah, part of my writing is that we aresocial beings disguised as individual contributors, yes of course, we are more like a coral reef and this is the most difficult thing that every leader has to deal with at some point and every Junior person will not understand this until they reach a higher level and then every leader will have to face it, the team is more important than any individual on the team and that is brutal, I mean, I can sacrifice one person for the good of the team.

I can't sacrifice the team for the sake of one person, otherwise everything falls apart and that's unbearable now that many leaders take that too seriously, too quickly and shoot too quickly with these guys doing it for the greater good, which they don't It is the last resort to destroy someone's livelihood for the good of the team, but it is true which is which. The team is more important than one individual on the team, but I have to protect each individual on the team for the team to flourish. and this is one of the reasons why we have to teach human skills and we have to teach leadership when people come together.

In our organizations, when people join a sports team, we instruct them how to throw, how to catch, how to execute the skills of playing, we teach them the rules over and over, and over and over again, until they are literally experts at it. how to play the game. and how you throw a ball and all that stuff and yet when we promote we usually promote people who are good at the game to a leadership position, which is wrong, there is no correlation between how good you are and how good you are. in leading other people like Tommy Lort Soo baseball player great coach Isaiah Thomas like Michael Jordan Michael Jord phenomenal players terrible coaches, there is no correlation, that's right, but as we promote artists, we don't give them education on how to lead and then we're surprised when organizations rest or how they misunderstand some of the things we're talking about, like boundaries, they misunderstand why when we say things like the team is more important than the individual well, I'll just dismiss all bad performance no. , no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying that's not what I'm saying, all right, I think most people don't actually fire, they cling too much to high performers instead of firing .

I think that's true. I think I think we put up with too much. to high performers or low confidence, yes, from C, they disrupt the culture and at the altar of performance we know that they are having negative effects on everyone else and we know that if we let them go, the performance of everyone else will increase, but It's just that they're so good, their numbers are so good, yeah, it's so easy like that, right, their numbers are so good, but the problem is that they're not loyal to you, no, um, the team hates them. You're destroying everyone, everyone knows it and they're waiting, and I think your point is very good.

If we say that the team is more important than any individual on the team, that doesn't mean getting rid of the weak ones. What it does mean is get rid of your toxic high-performing players, your toxic geniuses, because the team is more important than any individual member of the team. I love it, it's your idea shared at this point. Co-collaborators, the two of us, so let's go. Back to we're the day after the Super Bowl, yeah the 49ers lost the Super Bowl, yeah you're in the team meeting room the next day, yeah it's like the last day of the season, yeah what do you say to the team?

Oh, I think don't give a rah rah speech don't give a "we have next year look how well you did, we made it to the Super Bowl, it's unfair, you have to affirm the feelings they have, they were just told" they lost the Super Bowl well if you lost that means you're now the loser of course that's nonsense you made it to the Super Bowl but that's not how it feels and they're down and sad and they're hurting and we have to affirm all those who because they are the finite game because they lost the finite game that's it and we have to just sit with them and be like boy, this hurts, this really hurts, this really sucks for you.

You're not selling the infinite game at that point, no, no, no, you're recognizing that this is a finite game, you know, I'm a big believer in honesty, but I'm also, if you have an infinite mindset. more a sense of timing, which is what you have to say, you have to tell the truth and you have to be honest and you have to help people get through it, but you don't have to do it all now. I will give it to you. I'll give you a real life example that happened to me, so a friend of mine was in a play so I went to see the stand and I can say with absolute certainty that it was easily one of the worst things I've ever seen in my life. life. in my life I mean, I can't tell you that it was torture and if he hadn't been my friend I would have left and if I could have gone out twice I would have done it, it was so bad, God, yes, now at the end of In the play I was and I hung out in the lobby and my friend came out with, you know, friends and family, she's still in costume and makeup and she comes up to me full of adrenaline, she just came off the stage, what do you think and she said what. ' you think exactly now she knows I'm an honest broker, she knows I strive to be honest as often as I can, oh yeah, now is not the right time or place when she's full of adrenaline to have an emotional relationship. being deeply emotional because it's not rational right now, so I can't lie well, that's not allowed either, so I was like, "Oh my God, I'm so proud of you." I said it was so exciting to see you on stage doing your thing.

I had never seen you before and it was a real thrill to see you when you came out, all true, oh my God, thank you, thank you, thank you, all true and I hugged goodbye, the next two or three days go by and we talk and I can. I said, can I tell you what I thought about the play? Adrenaline is low. Emotions are relaxed. She is in a rational state and says. Yes of course. Me too. Well, the script was weak. She says. Yes, she said the management was pretty bad. says, I know, I said I like you, she says, thanks and I, that another actor was amazing, yes, but generally it was her, she says, no, I agree, and the same thing happens here for likes, there is a time and place like, yeah, you have to be honest. but no, you don't bring irrational emotions, you don't bring rational thoughts to an emotional shootout, amazing, you know, amazing, this is an emotional moment, you hold the space, they feel that, let them feel amazing, okay, and in a month we'll be .

You'll have the rational conversation and the infinite play and that's when you'll have raw Rod again, Simon what a fun conversation, fun for me too, yeah I really enjoyed getting to know you this way and having fun exploring complicated invisible ideas trying to make them tangible . I think I think we landed no no no that didn't work I was going to say I think we landed a plane we landed the bird on the perch finally finally it's there there's definitely a bird on a perch somewhere yeah I want to say thank you and where can people to those who would love a little more of this where can we take them or suggest they go to all the usual places your Instagram your

simon

.com

simon

.com your what am I Tik toks oh yeah Yeah yeah oh that's probably a good thing, thank you for softball which I completely despised so I'm obsessed with human skills and that's why we made it um we've made it quarter our existence to help teach those human skills so at simons.com yeah we're teaching skills human skills online, learning things internally and also teaching human skills to individuals or teams so that they can do all the things that we have been talking about in the past, no matter how long it takes.

I have been talking. I love it. I hope we find a way to work together. Co create something, it would be very fun, very fun, yes, thanks for having me, thanks Simon.