Simon Sinek: The Number One Reason Why You’re Not Succeeding | E145

We don't teach leaders how to have uncomfortable conversations We don't teach students how to have uncomfortable conversations You tell me what is going to be most valuable for the rest of your life How to have a difficult conversation or trigonometry Described as a visionary thinker with an uncommon intellect, multi-bestselling author, scientific cynic, each of us knows what we do, some of us know how we do it, but very, very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do and I think one of the

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most of us don't know who we are is because we are making decisions that are inconsistent with that true cause.

So there is great irony in all this. I had what many people would consider a good life and I still didn't want to wake up and go to work anymore why can't we do this thing called a career or life alone we're just not that smart we're not that strong we're just not that good for anyone who wants to be a better version of themselves the purpose comes from is one of the best podcasts I've ever done so without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Direva Ceo USA edition. I hope no one is listening to me, but if so, please continue.

This one, Simon, my presentation to you was this book that starts with why and it was hanging on the walls of some of my offices around the world for a long time and then my employees would come in after reading the book and evangelize about it. and it would come. In meetings, discussions, creative brainstorms, etc., over and over again, the question I wanted to ask you was: Was there a time in your life when you felt yourself getting so far away from your why that you realized the importance? for the first time, well the simple answer is yes, it was that drift that put me on the path to finding it in the first place and even articulating that idea that I had, what many people would consider a kind of good life is living the proverbial American dream, you know, I left my job to start my own business, the business was going well, I was living well, I had great clients, I was doing good work and yet I had lost my passion for it and I didn't want to wake up. get up and go to work again, which was embarrassing because on the surface everything was fine.

I was pretending that I was happier, more in control, and more successful than I was or felt like I was, which is, frankly, pretty exhausting and pretty dark, and I wasn't. until a very, very close friend of mine came to see me and told me that something was wrong, she was the first to notice something and I confessed to her and somehow I let it all out and it was that catharsis that lifted this great weight of on. shoulders he was no longer alone it was no longer a secret um and all the energy that was previously dedicated to lying, hiding and pretending was now dedicated to finding a solution there was a confluence of events, don't you know, all these stories are perfectly clear and clean and that's not really how it is or was, but to compress it and oversimplify it, I made this discovery based on the biology of human decision making that each of us knows what we do, some of us know how we do it, but very very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do and I realized that was what I was missing so to answer your question yes 100, I realized why I missed it and I realized that he knew what he was doing and what he was doing.

Well about that, I knew I was different or special or that I stood out from the crowd and that was my differentiating value proposition and I was eloquent about it, but I couldn't tell you why I got out of bed every day to do it. I know and I would give a nonsensical business answer because I want to be my own boss and say, yeah, sure, but that's not a reason to get out of bed every day. This made me think a lot about the guests I have sitting here as well. my own story where sometimes I think that people's why or what has been driving them is in fact some kind of trauma or insecurity, I think because you sit here with people there, whether it's israel arasanya, the champion of ufc, who is the current perhaps the best ufc fighter in the world.

He was mistreated and bullied as a child, being the only black child at his school in New Zealand, so it's no coincidence that he strove to be this fighter and in fact, when he won the UFC title the next day, he was depressed. and I went to therapy, which made me wonder if our wisdom can sometimes be due to trauma or insecurity rather than being intentional, I don't know, so why is it fully formed when we are between the middle and the end of life? adolescence, the youngest person. What I did in Wide Discovery 4 was 16 and it worked, the process worked and what I learned from doing hundreds of these over the years is that it's always positive, it's always striving for something, so we're not inspired. against something we are not inspired to stop something we are inspired to build something or create something or advance something even though it may have been born from trauma there is usually a positive side that gives us that cause, especially trauma that occurs in the middle of our lives, you know , 9/11 is often considered because you know, people found a purpose, you know, we are who we are, like I said, we are completely shaped by the experiences that we have when we were young, you know, at a pretty young age and now.

The opportunity that life presents to us is to make decisions that keep us in balance with who we really are or not, and I think one of the reasons why most of us feel uncomfortable or don't feel like ourselves or don't know who we really are. we are is because We are making decisions that are inconsistent with that true cause, with that why, then you raise the case of individual athletes who become champions and then suffer depression. It's a pretty common story. You hear this from the Olympians. You know, Michael Phelps becomes the most nosy. you know, the all-time Olympian immediately suffers from depression andre agassi becomes the most storied tennis player of all time immediately becomes depressed and what I've learned from talking to some of these, these athletes in particular, but I think it happens in the business world.

Furthermore, from a very young age they set a goal that, in my words, would be a very selfish goal. I want to be the best at x, the best tennis player, the best golfer, the best at whatever and you know how the Olympians put it. What amuses me is that I want to win the Olympic Games, well, no one wins the Olympic Games like you, you can be a winner in your sport, you know, but that's an aside, but and his whole life from very early ages, every decision they make. What we're doing is helping them advance this finite goal, all of their relationships are: can you help me achieve my goal correctly? and if you can no longer help me achieve my goal, I no longer need you as a coach or even as a friend, and there are enormous sacrifices, birthdays are missing, Christmas is missing, you know, important life events are missing because I have to practice to be able to achieve my goal and when They get interviewed on the news, you know, at the Olympics or whatever, you know, why do you do it?

They'll say, well, I do it to inspire little kids, which is complete, you know, if you look at all their vision boards from when they were younger, with pictures of podiums and medals and money and Lamborghinis, not a single little kid. There are people that you do it for, it's just an extra stroke of luck, I mean, absolutely, you inspire kids, but that's not the reason you did it, you just understand that, like I said, it's kind of double and and. then when they achieve or fail to achieve this and then they can no longer compete for it, they have set their entire path and all of their relationships on this, these finite selfish goals, and when it is complete, they realize that they don't actually achieve it.

They have a lot of friends around them, they don't really have many close relationships, they don't even have a sense of purpose because they have spent the last 20 years or so with a purpose which was this finite goal that has now been exhausted and that's why the lists of purposes and I see this in Broadway artists who set their whole lives on being in the West End or on Broadway, you know, every class, every tap dance class, every singing class, they make it, they get there and then depression or at least upset or top executive the same if I only make a million dollars, you know, if I become a millionaire then I will feel and uh, and the problem with all those things is like I said before they are selfish, uh, it's your goal for your reasons, which is not satisfactory for any social animal, for any human being.

You know, our sense of joy, fulfillment, love and purpose comes from our ability to serve another human being, have a child, tell me. how your life changes fall in love tell me how your life changes you know think about all the stupid irrational things we have done for love we get on planes and travel around the world just to say I love you you know we do ridiculous things and it seems like everything is worth it and All the sacrifices we make for a child seem worth it, but they are no longer for us and these things will live beyond our own lives.

They are not finite, they are infinite and there is nothing wrong with personal achievements. There's nothing wrong with setting goals, but it has to be in the context of something even bigger in team sports in general. Don't suffer this because you had to do it together. You know it's usually individual athletes who suffer from this most often. There is one athlete I would point out is a guy named Curtis Martin Curtis is an NFL Hall of Fame football player and he only started playing football basically to stay out of trouble, he did it as a favor to his mother. he didn't get into it. he grew up in a really bad neighborhood in philadelphia, that basically kept him out of trouble.

It turns out that he was very good at it and when he realized that he was good at it, he realized that by being good at something, it will give him the power to give back later and he realized this, especially when he went to school. college on a scholarship and then made it to the NFL, he realized that the better he got at the sport, it wasn't about furthering his own career, it was about when he leaves this career, he has a platform that would be bigger than the platform that he has now, so he was driven, driven and motivated, not so he could be the best, not so he could win the most money, in fact, he made a lot less money than many other players of his rank, not that he could Being rich or famous or any of these things, he did it so he could build his platform and be able to give back later, when he retired from the NFL he wasn't lost, he wasn't looking, he knew exactly what the next step was because being an elite athlete at highest possible level was just the first step, um, and seeing one's life as a continuum rather than an Event, um, it's much healthier at that point to see one's life as a continuum because of the way You call it attacking someone where you describe your situation, but you completely added me, you completely described my situation in terms of the mental place I was in. at 25, when they offered to buy my company, it was about me, it was about filling a void that I had in me from being the only black kid in an all-white school and thinking that I think success and accolades would fill that . empty in some ways, but at that point on a continuum as a way of living your life, the other time in my life where I really struggled in terms of goal setting and motivation was when I was trying to get in shape and shape.

Like in 2017, I told myself I want to have a six-pack by summer, that's the goal I set for myself. I really was trying to find a way to stay in shape forever, but I set a goal of having a six-pack in the summer. Mine and then every year my motivation would only last about four or five months and I couldn't figure out how people are continually motivated to exercise. I've figured it out now, but what was wrong with it? Because I have heard you. Talk about arbitrary goals before what the flaw is in creating arbitrary goals in our lives and how we create goals that are based more on that idea of ​​a continuum.

You know, I'm not a big fan of the term self-improvement. right, um, but I like the idea of ​​consciousness, self-awareness, you know, we all live with blind spots, we all live with missing gaps and pieces of information that, by the way, will last for the rest of our lives and there are some people who they choose. living a life where living with those voids is acceptable and they never fill them and we would say that they remain stagnant and possibly they are not healthy mentally or physically or they become less healthy as they get older, you know, for someone for anyone who wants to be a better version of themselves a more aware version of themselves you you we I look for information and that comes in all kinds of forms right, it can be in a relationship um so, for example, I went and took a listening class or actually I I should preface it with um, I was dating someone and she accused me of being a bad listener and I was like, you know what I do for a living, like I'm a really good listener so I don't know what are you".

Speaking of which, you know, and then I took this listening class, it turns out I'm an absolutely listener.brilliant with people I'll never see again in the rest of my life, but among my friends and family, terrifyingly awful, so I had this basic skill set. that I never ran with the people closest to me and gave myself a way out because, quote, I knew how to listen to them and then I realized I was a terrible listener, this was a blind spot, this was a gap and that someone would tell me Amara told me that. It didn't work, I didn't believe them until I met this strange target or at least just took this class and realized it was brilliant blind spot awareness and awareness of the skills I need to have. a better brother son boyfriend friend you know that I had to learn to hold space for someone and then practice that is awareness and I believe that our health is awareness unfortunately some people wait for the breakup to learn that they are bad listeners some people wait for the heart attack to realize that they are eating wrong, You know, that is consciousness, the awareness of receiving a punch in the face and I believe that it is a responsibility of every human being if they want to have value in the lives of others, to seek consciousness in how they appear in the world and how the world it affects them their mental health their physical health their ability to maintain relationships and take care of relationships and you hear what I mean, you heard me say this one more time it's kind of it's a it's a repetitive pattern that's for those who want to show themselves better in the lives of others.

I see health as a service to others. I consider being a better listener a service. I see everything in terms of service to others. benefits to you too, of course, but I think we've neglected for decades the sociability of our animals and social media and cell phones and the ubiquity of those technologies have complicated our ability to be human. There are others who comment on this like Well, Brene Brown talks about this where we have a young generation that has confused vulnerability and broadcasts right where you sit alone in your room, record your phone and make a video of yourself crying over the loss of a relationship and then you post that. on instagram or snapchat or youtube or tick tock or whatever your medium of choice is and the hashtag is just being vulnerable, right, and there's nothing vulnerable about you just broadcasting to the world live or on video, it doesn't matter, do exactly the same.

What happens with the person you hurt is much harder, don't leave a voice note saying "hey, I'm so sorry", just take responsibility, call them or go visit them, look them in the eyes and say the exact same phrase as you just left. a voice note for that vulnerability is very difficult and requires practice and we avoid it because it is difficult we avoid it because it is uncomfortable we choose to transmit not because it is better but because it is easier and then we confuse the two and that is the reason to learn to be vulnerable It's not for ourselves, it's for our service to others and I talk about this all the time, we have confused these things and once again we go back to what we were talking about before we, in a strange way, we have taken on these very prosocial activities and It made them selfish like, "Come on, my biggest pet.

I'll give you my biggest hassle and I've talked about this before, but it drives me crazy. I've been in this. I was in this meeting once and there was a woman next to me. Me, who apparently she was a great yoga instructor and the whole meeting was a big group of us, she was talking on the phone under the desk under the table and I sneaked a look at her and it's not like she was like there was a member of the family in the hospital and she wanted to stay in touch, she was on social media, I could see well and at one point the conversation at the table turned to being present and she stuck her head out and said that's why I love yoga because it helps me to be present and I'm thinking you're an idiot, you know?

And I started to realize that we've confused things here, that is, we can't decide when we're present, we can practice being present, but you're not really present until someone else says you are, you know you can't sit with a friend. and being like I feel present if they don't feel it, it's like me saying I'm a great listener, except It's not okay, I can't self-assign this praise, especially when it's social, it can only be assigned by someone else, for example. So for anyone who has practiced meditation, there are absolutely benefits to us, without a doubt, and that's where it's important.

The physical and mental health benefits of meditation and mindfulness and we should practice them for sure, but I also think it's the main reason that some would consider a secondary reason, which is that if you practice meditation, for example, you learn to concentrate on one thing, your mantra. it sounds whatever you learn with your breathing you learn with no one you don't think about anything you think about one thing you concentrate on one thing well and if something interrupts that you have a thought can I leave the washing machine? machine on, you know, you label it as a thought and you get it out of your head and you say, I'll deal with it later and that's the whole idea, its total focus and the ability to get your thoughts out of your head to stay.

Focusing on this, now think about when you are sitting listening to a friend who is going through a difficult time. You are listening? Are you waiting your turn to speak properly? All the meditation practice you have been doing now is valuable in this. moment when you are completely focused on what they are telling you every distraction every squeak of a car tire outside everyone talking around you you don't hear any of it you just listen to what they are telling you you are completely focused on what they are telling you and when you have your own thoughts about advice you'd like to give them or things you want to tell them oh my gosh, that happened to me too, right, you say no, that's not important right now. and you get it out of your head and you figure it out later and at the end of that conversation your friend will say thank you, I feel heard or thank you for being there for me or thank you for giving me space or thank you for listening and those are all indications that congratulations , you have been present for someone else and I believe that what gives purpose to our lives is not waking up every morning to learn to meditate so that we can be present for ourselves, although that is valuable what it gives our lives.

The purpose is to do these things for others, there is nothing wrong with doing things and enjoying the benefit of those things oneself by all means, but the sense of deep feeling of purpose and meaning for one's life or work only comes when those things are for another and in my opinion mainly for another where our benefit is secondary, you cannot have equality, there is no equality because at some point one of those things will have to be sacrificed for the other and you sacrifice the love of your spouse to that. that you can stay in love or you sacrifice your comfort you sacrifice the comfort of your girlfriend boyfriend's spouse so that you can be better or you sacrifice your comfort so that they feel better that's obvious it's obvious well, it's the same here is the The same analogy is that I choose to sacrifice my happiness, my joy, my comfort, my Lamborghini right now, not forever, but right now, for you, for you, my employee, for you, my friend, you know, I will delay so you can have and that's where. the joy and love of business relationships, friendships come from you, you know, there's a great irony in all of this, that sacrificing yourself for another really is the most beautiful thing we can do, I mean, that's what love is, sacrificing yourself for another, um and all of these things, whether it's learning to be a better communicator, learning mindfulness and meditation, being fit, if you can translate those things for another person, all of those things start to serve a higher purpose in the case of health, do it for someone else. to say it would be so I could be here more time for my family, I would be much happier if I had kids for example, sure, as long as it's real, it can't be generic, you're right, can't it just be cut?

You can't just post it just so it fills the crazy libraries and you filled the void, yeah, yeah, you know, you really have to feel like that ad is actually the purpose. I'll give you one then, so leave. I think about this and I thought about this last night when I was at the gym, partly I think I exercise because I want to be healthy and fit for my girlfriend the way I want to be, I want our relationship to be good, I want us to be able to be active together, I want she might be attracted to me when I'm naked, you know, and I had a debate with my team about whether that's a noble reason to exercise and whether we should do it.

I have a feeling and an obligation or whatever to be in shape for our other half, I think it's healthy for her for sure, but you think the aesthetic things are a little bit, I think it's okay, I mean, I think the things Aesthetics are all about confidence, right? which is, I'm sure she'll love you even if you're chubby, you know, I'm sure she'll love you even if you don't have a sexual package, you know, but if she makes you feel safe, then that's how people operate. the nose, you know, like if someone said you can't get a nose job, why are you okay?

If that makes them feel better about themselves then how can we argue with that if they went from being really really insecure to hiding their bad faces or teeth and never wanted to smile to fix their teeth and now they smile all the time like why should we tell them which they can't now, of course, there is a line, getting addicted to plastic surgery is a different thing and there is a line, but you know, fixing your teeth or getting a nose job to feel better, it's okay if it creates your comfort, so, if it increases your confidence, and then, and you're doing it in a healthy way, you know, then.

You know, it's like someone could argue that you shouldn't exercise to make it look good again now. There is a line. There are some people who really overdo it and if they stop exercising they gain a little bit of weight. Actually, there is a spiral. a line where they're not actually building trust, they're actually building security, but some of these things don't have to be big and lofty, they can be ridiculously small, for example, for me, you know I'm very good at um, disappoint myself like I have no problem disappointing myself, just like I wake up in the morning two hours before my alarm and tell myself you should work out like you woke up really early, you have a Busy day and I just had two extra hours.

You could use 30 minutes of that to exercise. Get out of bed. I sit in bed for two hours and just read the newspaper and play words. You know, and it will be two hours. and I won't exercise. Do I have any guilt? None. I'm just saying, "Oh, you're an idiot, Simon, right now." If I meet someone at the gym at 7:30 because we're going to work out, I'll do it. being there I won't let anyone down I'm okay letting myself down but I won't let anyone else down so for me my purpose is sometimes very in the moment like I'm doing this for them it's like you know when When I ran you know one of The reasons I stayed in good running shape is because when I ran with my running partner I never wanted to ruin his race.

If they wanted to keep the pace a little higher, I could keep it so they didn't. It always has to be big and lofty, sometimes it can be in the moment when you talked about awareness and the importance of trying to be more aware of ourselves and one of the things that made you aware was that conversation with your partner, yeah , where they said you don't listen, you're a shitty listener, yeah, um, self-awareness, I don't know if that's a real thing, but self-awareness, um, seems to be the foundation of personal growth, so becoming aware of something in our lives and the people can read, like I always say, people can read as many books as they want, but if they can't read for themselves, they'll never learn anything for me and I wrote that a couple of years ago and I had a boy. in my office who read every single one of them, actually he was one of the people who always came with your books, right, he read every book I ever saw him, he knew all the books but he never changed, yeah, and he and there were things inside.

I think that was the reason why it couldn't evolve even though it was absorbing so much information. How does the warning work? What are the key ways we can increase our sense of self? self-awareness so that we can grow and evolve is a good question, you know, it's like people like that are a bit like yo-yo dieters, you know, they do all the diets, but they're not healthy people, I read all the books, but I'm not growing and you can't evaluate yourself, you know, it's like, can you, I mean, you know from work, right, that at some point someone is going to have to give you feedback, at some point you have to give feedback to another person, like yourself. -Evaluation is one thing, but it is not the only thing, it is one thing, it is a data point and I firmly believe in self-evaluation, but it must be reinforced with the evaluations of others because many times we are blind.

Social animals we can't do this thing called career or life alone we just aren't that good.smart we're not that strong we're not that aware we're just not that good at social animals we actually need each other to watch our backs and tell us what works and what doesn't and I think for someone who goes through life and reads those books , all the books, you know, I'm good at them, I guess, but are they asking for help? Are they asking for input from others instead of just reading it and agreeing with it and thinking they are making changes.

I know my own personal journey and I try and think about myself as I work hard to be self-aware and work hard to self-assess, but I have seen in my own life my ability to truly demonstrate real awareness and move further along the journey. and the path called life, instead of staying stagnant, came when I let others help me. You know that we don't build trust by offering help. We build trust by asking for it because it is a vulnerable thing to ask for help. Will you help me? It's a very, very, very vulnerable statement, can I help you, not so much? an act of service, but the act of service really comes from allowing another person to serve you, which becomes this weird twisted circular thing, you know, it's like, I mean, I'll give you a dumb example of people being bad at receive praise, right? you are so smart no no no no no no no, right, we downplay it because we are embarrassed by the compliment, right, but a compliment is a gift, someone is paying you a gift now, if someone gave you a gift, you wouldn't reject it because It would be rude, right?

You would accept it whether you like it or not, whether it makes you feel comfortable or not. You accept it with gratitude and then you go to evaluate it. No, that's an ugly sweater, you know, but you're still grateful for thinking about it. and the gift and the compliment are the same and I believe that all of these things are the will for you to know how to deny another person the joy of giving yourself the gift of the compliment and deny another person the intensity and joy of being there for another person. time. I think it is selfish to never ask for help it is selfish to ask for help it is a great act of service because you allow another person to have the joy of sacrifice and it goes back and forth it is not one sided and this is where I think good relationships work which is that we take turns and sometimes it's really hard when we're both needy at the same time, that gets really hard.

Luckily we have friends, so you already know the level of kovid. I have a couple of friends who are kind of like that. They are both remarkable high-achieving individuals and one of them called me out of the blue and went for a long walk and says I'm doing really badly and I need to talk to you and I don't want to talk to my husband. because he's also doing really badly and I'm afraid that if I talk to him he won't have the energy for me, but I know he wants to be there for me which will make things worse for him.

We're both really struggling, can you? having some time to talk, you know, and I mean the willingness to ask for help b the willingness to understand that asking her husband for help would make it even more difficult for him, it was just a very sophisticated and beautiful moment and to this day from today Not only did we become closer because of it, but her husband and I also became closer because I was there for her when he knew he couldn't be and that's why we have friends like, again, we can't do this alone . we're not just social animals, we're tribal animals, you know, it's more than a friend, it takes a community, um and I think one of them, you know, we're always talking about what we eat and we're talking about what you know what supplement Are we drinking or are we always talking about that kind of stuff or what book are we reading but we don't talk enough about how we take care of our close personal relationships?

We're taking care of those closest to us and making sure the tribe is strong, the crew is taken care of, you know, and I think there's a lot more work we can do in that area, are there practical things you can do? with colleagues, partners, friends to create that culture of seeking feedback, being open, being really vulnerable, you know, some people say, oh, we'll have, we'll sit down with our journal and write, we'll do this exercise or you may have seen it. . In organizations where they like 360 ​​feedback, there are practical things we can do to create a culture of seeking that feedback and create a safe space.

Well, the simple answer is, of course, that there is no silver bullet. it's a combination of things it's like what's the only thing I can do to be happy have a happy relationship well I can't I can tell you something important but I can't tell you what's important so it's the same thing um and everyone's a little different, you know, and every culture is a little different, so there's not even a list I can give, but there are some things that people can choose from, you know, one thing is that one of the ways we create space It's how we react correctly if someone gives you feedback and you deny it, well that's a problem if someone gives you harsh feedback and you thank them for it, it's a very different environment that creates, so I'll give you two examples, one as a lesson and the other as a practical example. someone can use it so I had the opportunity to visit the army ranger school uh in particular and where they make army rangers and one of the problems that they had many years ago was that they had these people that they called outstanding rangers , who were really good at their job, they were brilliant at all the tasks given to them, strong, the teachers, the instructors loved them, they stood out, they were great, they were motivated, but as soon as the attention faded, the instructor he wasn't there and they were back at the barracks, and the only person who knew he was there was his friends and colleagues because the light went out and the army rangers implemented a peer review system to identify the rangers and now By the way, they started this 40 years ago, which seems incredibly advanced to me, but to advance in ranger school you need to pass three tests, you need your instructor to tell you that yes, you're ready to go to the next level that you need. to physically perform all the tasks that are required of you and you have to pass peer review, um, and if you fail any of those three, you don't move on to the next interesting level, so it becomes an equally weighted component of advancement in the army rangers, which is what kind of team player are you, which I love, so we implemented a 360 review system, um, which was kind of an amalgamation of things that we had taken from other groups and made our own. , where the way it works is to take the group of people you interact with regularly and fill in your top three weaknesses or the places you think you need to grow the most with a specific example for each of the top three weaknesses. or specific places. you need to grow the most and then highlight three specific strengths or places where you think three examples of where you think you've grown the most have to be specific not like oh, I'm a much better timekeeper now no, that has to give some specific examples, they are collected and distributed among the team and then they meet as a group and take turns reading them, so first they read their own weaknesses and then the group has the opportunity to add them to that list and here is the best thing is that we give a little speech before the whole exercise begins.

The people who are going to give you this feedback really don't want to. It's very uncomfortable for them. It will be. They would prefer not to do this exercise at all, but. They will do it because they want to see you and help you grow, so what they are giving you is a gift and you have to receive it as a gift, which means you say thank you, you don't have to. be okay with it, if you don't agree, say thank you and just throw it away, that's fine, but if it has an emotional impact, if it makes you angry or frustrated, it's probably true, and we go around the room and someone tells everyone the people who can do it. add to this list these weaknesses in any way there is no format they can do it any way they want and you sit there and look them in the eye and generally say thank you you are not allowed to say a word except thank you so you make your strengths and you read your threat strengths and anyone can add them to the list and just as you discovered that you have blind spots that you didn't know you had, you discovered that you have strengths that you didn't know you had. that you are having a positive impact on the lives of others that you didn't know you had and it is a magical experience.

There are usually tears at some point because it's powerful and it's a safe environment. I wouldn't recommend an organization start there. I would recommend that you move towards that because it will put very senior people and very junior people in the same room and they will have very direct conversations with each other and it's very true, it's not a place to start, but it's a place to get to, I want I mean, there are variations, one takes a lot of time, you know, we have many variations, since everyone is responsible for doing it and you can have two people assigned and you can choose. one or two people to join and you just have a smaller group when you want to do it, you know, and it's just for you so the others don't do it at that time, it's a little more efficient to do it that way. um, but there's no right or wrong way.

I really love that idea that promotion depends not only on your manager or you being the CEO believing that you are xy and z, but on the colleagues around you reviewing it because one of the Things I noticed in my company that we had and When I left, there were about 700 people, but I would hear reports about one team member in particular, and the reports I would get about his character and behavior never matched the way I was treated. So they always treated me, of course, incredibly, of course, of course, of course, and then I would hear that they treated this person like this and they did this and I would really respond and they would say, yeah, really, they were always very nice to me. and obviously on that basis I would have promoted that individual and thought he was cool, so it's definitely something that I'll implement that's called the monkey tree because of the way the monkey tree is called, which is all the people at the top looking down.

I only see smiles, but all the people at the bottom looking up see in the air, oh yeah, that makes perfect sense and again, you don't have to do it, you don't have to do it, I mean, there's another time that different Cultures can accept different you. I know there is no right or wrong here, and some cultures may want to implement peer review that is included in a promotion package, but it doesn't have to be that good leadership helps there too, i.e. every senior person level knows no I don't understand the truth, I mean, even if your people are wonderful and fantastic, people want to tell you the right answer, not because they are trying to lie to you, but because they want to please you like you knew the higher you were.

It's getting harder to get the truth, and every senior leader knows it's harder to get the truth. Every great senior leader also has spies. Someone that maybe you started out with, you were friends with and people don't know that you're friends or that you came up. through the ranks of the organization together, but his career went a little further, a little faster, he knows that he has these trusted relationships that he can get a little bit of inside information about what's really going on. Also, this is the most difficult. At least it's hard to learn to replace judgment with curiosity, then someone comes to you and tells you that person is a problem and suddenly we create a narrative based on the story they tell us that it is a problem, that person is stupid, that lazy person, whatever it is, now we label them as lazy, now we treat them as lazy, now everything they do or don't do because they are lazy, true, but as a good leader we want, we can accept those reports. those rumors we can take those direct stories that people have and we can say thank you, I appreciate I will look into it, find out more and you will go on a little journey to find out what is really going on, it absolutely could be that they are lazy, that could be 100 or maybe They are distracted for some reason or maybe they are having problems at home or maybe we have given them a job that they are not qualified for or maybe they are having a personality conflict with someone they work with, the list goes on and on and on and on. it goes on and the good leader figures it out and by the way, by leader I don't mean the top person, I mean anyone in the organization, um.

Replace that judgment with curiosity and I think that's what creates those environments, but the reality is with rank you set the tone, so for example, not lying, that seems pretty simple within a company, we don't tell lies, okay, phone. Your assistant rings, answers, uh, they put the person on hold and they call you, uh, David is on the phone and you're going to tell him I'm not here, you just approved a lie, you just approved a lie, right? little lie so now that person who was told to lie with approval can now tell a lie correctly because he camefrom the boss and suddenly you discover that you have an organization that tells lies all over the place and some of those lies grow It happened to me once where I had a very high-level phone call with the top leaders of a really large organization and I forgot about it.

I just didn't show up on the call. I have no excuse. I just forgot. I checked my calendar and I forgot and my assistant at the time, of course, wanted to protect my reputation and wrote to them and said he was very sorry. Simon had another meeting that lasted a long time and I took her aside and it was the hardest answer I had to give him. Because he did it with very good intentions, I said: I am very grateful, I am very grateful that you are protecting me and you are protecting my reputation and I want you to do it, but you have to do it without lying, we cannot lie.

You can say I'm sorry I'm late, I'm sorry I missed the call, but you can't say it's because I was in another meeting because that's not true and then it's this, you know, I mean, I'll challenge you, try this right, let's see. the time right now, it's noon, okay, it's noon, I don't know what day it is Monday, right, you and your whole family. team, here's the challenge for all of you, okay, you can't tell a single lie for the next 48 hours. I don't want to say anything and you will be surprised how difficult it is.

You'll be surprised at how many little white lies we tell when the waiter arrives. one and five minutes before you say oh this food is so salty and the way it comes is how it is everything you go is fine everything is fine yeah thank you that's fine that's a lie right now you don't have to being bad there is nothing that says the truth has to be brutal, it just has to be true, try it for the next 48 hours and you will see how hard it is not to tell a single lie, everyone will walk around wondering what they think of each other now , Simon. he says you have to be honest, right, but there are ways to do it right, like do these genes make me look fat?

I like the other genes much more, they are much more flattering, right, you don't have to hurt people and neither does time. true it's a true story so I went to see a friend's play and I couldn't wait for this to be over it was so bad and I went out to say hello to her after the performance and she came out she was still in costume and makeup and she knows that I'm an honest runner she cares about what she knows I'll always tell her the truth and this kind of stuff and she tells me what did you think now now is not the time or the place where she is I'm full of adrenaline and now is not the time to give him a critical evaluation of this terrible performance, so I evaded the question but I said something true, I said ah, it was a pleasure to be here to see you.

Do your thing, you know, I've wanted to see you on stage forever and it was so fun to see you on stage. That was all true the next day, when the adrenaline had subsided and I called her and told her. Can I tell you what I thought about the play? She goes, yes, of course, and I told her critically, piece by piece, what I thought about her and how bad she was. We had a perfectly rational conversation about it, it didn't hurt her feelings the day before. It would have really hurt her feelings, so not everything has to be that way.

We confuse being honest with being honest now. No, I can't lie and I have to answer the question, but you can answer it tomorrow when conditions are better for that message to be. We have received what is so insidious or what is so harmful. What is the long-term negative impact of creating that culture of lying within teams and within ourselves? Well, there's a psychological phenomenon, I guess it's called ethical fading, that can affect the culture of an organization. where people within that culture become capable of making very unethical decisions believing that they were within their own ethical frameworks, so extreme examples are things like pharmaceutical companies that have a patent on an essential drug and to meet or exceed some financial projection increase the price of that essential medicine 100 500 1000 1500 totally legal there is nothing illegal about that right really unethical and in organizations that suffer from an ethical fade it almost always, if not always, starts from the top, it is usually a problem of leadership, comes from an excessive amount of pressure. achieving certain short-term goals to the point where doing so ethically becomes increasingly difficult and therefore what creates an ethical fade is a

number

of things, one of those things is that we rationalize correctly, we look for ways to distance ourselves from the impact of our decisions we say things like it's what you have to do to get ahead it's what my boss wants um everyone is doing it it's the system I don't have a choice, right um and there are ways we can dissociate our responsibility, so rationalizing is a big part of this another part is the old slippery slope you did it once you did it a little it worked we raised the price 10 no one noticed great do it again do it 20 this time try 100 and on and on and on and before you have a full blown ethical meltdown and some of the things are the overuse of euphemisms again we are using language to disassociate ourselves from the impact of our decisions so for example you know in the United States we would never torture but rather we would improve. very appealing sounding interrogation, right, or companies would never spy on their customers, but data mining, yes, I know we're really into it, right, we're just using different language to mask the insidiousness of our real decisions, like If everyone was talking about managing externalities, but we weren't talking about the damage we were doing to the people and cultures of the places where our offices and factories were located, why wouldn't you have that conversation?

And when you have enough of those things, the ethical fade appears where Now you have real problems and in extreme cases, massive scandals, sometimes they lead to illegal activities, but usually they are unethical scandals and when those things happen, management drags on and Talk to the newspaper and the law and they always say the same thing. I mean, we don't break any laws, everything we do is legal, no, we don't have a problem with the law, we have a problem with your ethics, but when you don't, when it's not up to par, it becomes incredibly uncomfortable and horrible place to work that increases stress to the point where you will damage your own health and damage the way you treat your family because when you are under that type of stress you violate your own work ethic.

Um, you're going to come home, you're going to take it out on your spouse and your kids, you're going to kick the dog. You're not going to be motivated to do much except sit back and sit on the couch and watch TV. I know, it has had a rather insidious impact on the lives of human beings. I was thinking about it in terms of romantic relationships as well. One little white lie turns into another little white lie and then a couple of you know, a year goes by and you're so out of alignment and so far from your truth that you're resentful of having to keep up with this set of lies.

I mean, we've talked about it with a guest on this podcast before one of the mistakes that I made in My relationship at the beginning was that I said yes to things that I didn't like to do, yeah, so I created this culture and there's also a similar expectation when my partner thought I loved doing x activity at six in the morning because I always said yes and always pretended I liked it. Now I have to live that life of something I don't enjoy doing because I lied at the beginning and the journey back isn't always so easy when I've done it.

I made the same mistake on the other side, which was after I broke up with someone when we maintained a friendship and I started dating someone or at least started dating, but I didn't want to hurt this person's feelings. I still worry about that. We broke up, you know, a couple of months before, so yes I would avoid the conversation, but if she said, are you dating anyone, I would say no, not really, and it's not because I wanted to lie, because I don't want to hurt her. The intention, of course, is positive, but what I learned later is that all those little lies meant that she was holding onto a hope that wasn't there, and by the way, they've done that to me too, I'm holding onto a hope too. hope it's not there because Someone didn't want to hurt my feelings and would rather just have an awkward conversation Are you dating anyone?

Are you OK. Well, that hurts, but I can heal. I can move on. And you meet this young generation again for all the reasons we are. I've talked and more he seems to exhibit the traits of being very conflict avoidant, very uncomfortable with the uncomfortable, that has some impact which is sometimes funny, quote unquote, but it always tends to make someone feel lonelier, so for sure For example, I have seen this happen. I've heard these stories so many times from a young employee who may feel like he's in line for a raise, but it's so awkward to go to his boss and ask for a raise that he just quits and would rather quit and have an awkward conversation. and then sometimes it's followed by an angry email saying I'm undervalued, you don't appreciate me, you pay me less, you know, and I've heard it happen a lot where leadership is like we would do it. happily like I'm sorry, we were planning on giving you a raise, we would give you a raise, you know, and it's very awkward to walk into your boss's office and say, hey, I'm working really hard, can I have? a raise please now the time you can quit is when you've had this conversation four five six times and you've seen nothing, you've gotten no feedback and you've had no impact, then you absolutely quit and you absolutely say that you underestimate me.

I appreciate that you don't appreciate me we've had this conversation five or six times so it's their fault because they had all the information but again it's really funny how many little kids would rather quit than have a difficult conversation or Would rather break up than have a difficult conversation or worse Still, they'd rather ghost someone than break up with them because it's really awkward to have a fight and a breakup and insult each other, it's so much easier to just turn off all social media. unfollow media everywhere I know we've been dating for six months but now I'm going to ignore every text ignore all your calls and think about it since we talk about service think about service or disservice we do to the other person from their point of view, it's like you were in a car accident, it's like you were killed, it's like you just disappeared from the planet, that's trauma because you feel uncomfortable having an uncomfortable conversation, you would do that to them to someone else, so The service goes both ways, meaning I'll feel uncomfortable and have a difficult conversation even if I clumsily do it and screw it up and it ends up being a shouting match because it's a better option than traumatizing a person where They have to believe that I.

Firstly I have died because they can't reach me because they panic and then when they realize I am alive because they see me on Instagram, now I have destroyed their self-confidence, how dare anyone? Do that to another human being because you feel a little uncomfortable having an awkward conversation. Where we can help is that we can teach people how to have uncomfortable conversations. That's a skill set. We don't teach leaders to have uncomfortable conversations. don't teach students how to have uncomfortable conversations we don't teach, you know, we can teach these things everywhere and I think it's a big gap in the curriculum, we teach, you know, math and we teach English, but we don't teach social interaction we don't teach to listen we don't teach how to have uncomfortable conversations we don't teach how to give and receive feedback you know, now tell me which is going to be more valuable for the rest of your life, how to have a difficult conversation or trigonometry, yeah, and shouldn't we be?

Its not this? Shouldn't we prepare people for life? I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this. podcast as the seasons have started to change, so has my diet and right now, I'm going to be completely honest with you, I'm starting to think a lot about losing some weight because the last two of probably the last four. For five months my diet has been pretty bad and it started to show a little in the last two months. I go to the gym about 80 percent of the time, so I follow it with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp group and this. online tracker that we all use together we call it fitness blockchain and I'm currently 81 years old so 81 of the days I've worked out in the last 150 days so I go to the gym about six times a week that's I've seen myself a little bit affected by the spin-off live tour, but I'm trying to move on and so one of the things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake and try to get back to being nutritionally complete and everything I eat is I'm taking the heel protein shake.

Thanks Hill for making a product that I really like. Salted caramel is my favorite. I have the banana one here, which is the one I like.girlfriend, but for me salted caramel is where it's at. Of that new generation in the workplace and what they are like, they are exhibiting traits of being a little more cowardly in terms of having those difficult conversations. You made a video about millennials in the workplace that probably got hundreds of millions of views, yeah. I remember watching it on Facebook maybe five years ago and I think it had 50 million views on that video, but on YouTube it has tens of millions of views on many different videos, but now I'm thinking about that new generation that you.

I've described that younger generation, that generation is your generation that is emerging in the post-Covid world, what is the workplace for them? How can I, as a leader, make sure that if I'm hiring Gen Z and I have a couple even in this? room that work in my company what do we need to know about them and do to make sure they thrive stay motivated and achieve their goals this is my own bias I don't like the conversation about strengths and weaknesses um you know, it's the famous question you know in a interview what's your biggest weakness well, I'm a perfectionist you know uh I don't like conversations about strengths and weaknesses because strengths often have disadvantages I'm really confident, okay, in the wrong context, you're arrogant, right, but weaknesses have too positives, so for me, I'm chronically disorganized, I'm terrible, right, every app on the system works for a week and then I'm disorganized again. something good or bad for years I used to beat myself up for it and say it's a bad thing, it's a terrible weakness, but the reality is the context, so when I was a young entrepreneur, I was at this networking event and I met this. guy who's really impressed with what I had to say with my speech and he's like

simon

we need to work together here's my business card call me let's do this and I lost the business card basically as soon as he gave it to me so Anyone who was organized would text from the taxi or at least send an email the next day, no Google, around here.

I lost my business card, there was no way to know what this important business would have led me to because I lost my business card two weeks later I found the business card at the bottom of a briefcase, so I emailed him and said: Hello , you remember we met two weeks ago. You know, I'd love to reconnect and see if we can work together. Still, he wanted to work. with me more because I thought I was busy so strength or weakness the answer is now it depends generally yes it's a weakness it's a responsibility and it causes me a lot of stress but it's not always the point so yeah , it is important that we understand it. our characteristics that we exhibit, some of them in certain contexts are huge strengths and some of the exact same characteristics in the wrong context are huge weaknesses, so we have to be very careful when we label people or generations. as strong or weak because the answer is it depends, well that's the preface so we talk about this young generation, generation z, they exhibit many of the same characteristics as the previous generation, but they are quite different in the sense that you are very activist, so for example in the '50s and '60s people hated their jobs, they just went to work every day and suffered in silence, you know, when you get to the '80s and '90s, people hated their jobs , but then at least they'd start talking about it in the office saying, "You know, this job kind of sucks, you know?" and then when you get to the 2000s, people start talking to their bosses and saying, "I think we should." Make it better to work here, you know, and now you, in this young generation, and they are like stand up and quit and I like it, and I love it, and they organize themselves, they are much more, you know, the previous one.

This generation would like to tweet my discontent with a hashtag while I'm sitting in my Uber on the way to brunch, you know, but this young generation goes out, organizes and meets, more or less, it depends, sometimes it's a great strength the fact that they have that type. of energy, but sometimes, as we've talked about, they also have the energy to quit instead of having an awkward conversation, so strength or weakness depends, so I think the way we have to approach all of these things it's with empathy, which is instead of deciding if it's a strength or a weakness, trying to understand where it's coming from because I can say this generation is irresponsible and will quit before they ask for a raise or I can say why they quit before they get a when they just need a raise, what is it, what is it, what happened between a and b, and that thought in those two actions, you know, and I'm like, oh, they just missed the skill set, oh, we can totally figure it out, It is easy.

Fix it, so I'm not labeling an entire person or an entire generation. I'm not acknowledging that there are skill gaps that we all have, so when you ask me about any of the generations and they all have strengths, they all have disadvantages and they all depend. in time frame and context sometimes those strengths also become outdated they are no longer necessary you know they can still cause frustration they can still cause confusion you know we are still looking through them through our own prisms of our own generation I definitely I caught him doing it, you know, I do, my God, we never did that when we were kids, you know, when I was his age, I actually say it now, but I think the proof, the proof.

It is the practice of empathy, which is another skill we can teach that is missing. How is this the coveted experiment in the workforce and workplace? So how should leaders or business owners adapt to ensure they don't lose people? and becoming an unattractive and unconvincing place to work in this post-codified era and also the point you made earlier about the importance of, like we're social animals, we need that social connection and we're optimizing for it to be out of our control. lives, I feel like this remote work thing has exacerbated the problem because we are, you know, for young people, you know, I think the office is one of the few institutions we have left where we are in person.

We don't go on dates anymore, we do it on apps, that's the right food, we don't go to restaurants anymore, we just order Uber Eats and our work, they tell us, will be done from Zoom. I say, what do we have left? We're alone, we're going to be alone and it's not a coincidence that we see increasing rates of depression, anxiety, suicide, you know, especially in the younger generations, so you know it's not causal, but there's definitely a correlation, you know, it reminds me to when um and I. I'm old enough for this, some of your listeners aren't, but I remember when the Internet came out and e-commerce started and I remember some of the people who are really into technology thinking this is the death of bricks and mortar.

There will never be stores again and now Amazon opens stores and rents the runway, opens stores and it turns out that the extremes are not great places, you know, it's not death, it's living next to them, they become different animals, they become different reasons why we go to stores not to get. the best deal you go to you go to websites to get the best deal you go to stores because it's fun you go to stores to try things you go to stores because it's an activity because we, our hunter-gatherer instincts , we like to look for food and look for things it's entertainment we enjoy the service aspect you know it's with our friends sometimes it's not about the stores at all it's just a place something to do with our friends plays a different role and smart retailers do it You know and that's why when we talk about work, it's the same thing, it's the death of the corporate headquarters, the death of the office, I think, although you know, the reality is that this will be somewhere in between and I think that one thing with All the predictions about what The Future of Work looks like I think one thing we can be absolutely sure of is that there will be more flexibility where you know where it used to be Hi boss, can I leave next Friday?

Can I work from home next Friday? I need to stay. home for whatever right it becomes to send an email in the morning saying I'm going to work from home today and everyone is fine with it, you know, introverts like to work work from home, extroverts like to work at the office, but at the same time, sometimes extroverts should stay home because they can. get more work done and sometimes introverts need to come to the office because they need to connect and we want you to be part of the culture, so I don't think you know how to make predictions about what it's going to be like.

I think it's a bit silly at the moment, we know it will be some kind of merger, we know it will be more flexible and probably each office will be slightly different and will adapt to any culture and I think the office environment will. become one of the things they sell, I mean, if someone really hates this rfis environment, they will find another company where they like the office environment, but I think what's really interesting about the big resignation is what's less talked about and the big resignation is kind of The reasons for this some people talk about the government checks we get and they run out, so that's not the main reason.

People talk about how people are giving up to follow their dreams. You know, I always wanted to be an actor. or a great writer and that's definitely a percentage and I and I love it, but it's not like that, those

number

s are not big enough. I think what I think is most interesting is that the big resignation is a critique of decades of poor corporate culture and bad leadership where and why it's a big problem that we're seeing people, especially in frontline jobs, where leadership used to say of them who should be happy to have a job, right?, that those people are quitting without necessarily new jobs.

It's a big deal and definitely not everyone just follows their dreams, I think it's because in the past you know when you ask those people how work is going, they would say okay, okay, no, it's okay, it's a job. . okay, well, why didn't he quit? Because the unknown was much scarier than being okay and therefore they will do well and the leadership took advantage. Many corporate managers took advantage of the fact that they could get away with it. Well, we were able to do the minimum. because they are not going to leave, they are lucky to have a job and what are they going to get out there and the big unknown fine is fine and then greed happened and a lot of people were fired, a lot of people were lost. their jobs a lot of people were fired some people kept their jobs but they just lived in fear and we all turned out okay, we ate, we had food, you know, most people did well, even if it was hard, they made it and so Suddenly, The unknown is much less scary, so when you offer me good, I choose unknown, which is a better option.

In fact, I don't just choose unknown, I'll wait until you fix it right and I don't. I think enough companies are recognizing that the big quit is an accusation that the big quit is a finger-wagging that you've gotten away with a poor culture and poor leadership for too long and you better get your shit together and I think the companies that will have the huge advantages is not combat, the companies that get the balance right between working in person or online, I don't think that's what does it, I think the companies that get the great advantage in the future are the ones that teach leadership to their leaders that teach these human skills that we've been talking about that create a corporate environment and a corporate culture that I want to go to every day and, in fact, form strong and good bonds with my new tribe and with the people I go to. work and I'm willing to sacrifice and not get everything exactly how I want it because I'd rather be here and serve this wonderful group of people, those are the companies that will have the big advantage in the next decade or two, one of the things I saw in that zip code period were at my particular company, it was one of the things that I believe and based on our research at the time, I'm no longer with this company, so I can talk about it with a little bit more honesty in our questionnaires, we would see that a big part of the reason people love coming and working there is because of the company culture.

We're done, we've gone to extremes, we had like five people we were just in charge of happiness we called the happiness team we paid for everyone's mental health therapy it was very in terms of flexibility what is the world like now or you can decide for yourself yourself when you work and then when the cover up comes we were known for that in the UK like the BBC demo pieces this was the best place to work when the cover up came along it destroyed our usp and that's why we almost did it I saw it as a leveler because noweveryone worked from their laptop. at home on your shorts box, so now what I think I saw was our employees were going, to some extent, I can work at home on my shorts box for this company or I can work at home on my shorts box. shorts for this company where they will pay me double, yes, and that shift was and it was scary for us because that's when we started to see people leaving because they were leaving, well, this company will give me 30 more and I'm still going to keep doing my thing. -I make the list at home on my own, so why not move now?

Is there any truth to your opinion? Yes, of course, because you confused um ornaments with culture right now those things are good, let's not diminish the value of those things, but this is We are entering a beautiful full circle from the beginning of our conversation, which is to what extent and like what are we doing this also in the service, what is the most important thing that was missing and that was missing 100 and that's where cultures become magical, they are fun, like you know the number of companies that you and I have visited and that they have flat screens everywhere, amazing design, free lunch, you know we had a slide, yeah, yeah, you have a cool slide, you know now it's Someone's going to turn down a higher paying job to keep it, no, you know, but If you gave them the opportunity to contribute to something bigger, would they turn down a better paying job now?

Yeah, right, so I think that's probably kind of the whole point. -com tech culture um, but it's what you know, because tech companies are largely these kind of ridiculous bright colored slides in every office, you know, which is fun, don't get me wrong, it's fun, um, but that's not, it's not because that's not the purpose, uh. and great cultures are organized to promote something bigger than themselves, they're not just fun places to work, you know, what I think we did wrong is I think we asked people what they wanted, yeah, so they said things like a bar, yes, a basketball hoop, while, as you have, as you are.

Clearly alluding to this, you can't ask people for culture in that sense, you can't ask people to name everyone the collective cause because everyone will say different things, right, you have to offer them a cause to join. Yes, that's one of the reasons I join companies because they believe in the cause, not just because it's a job I want to do. You know, Henry Ford famously said: If he had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. You know this. It's where people like Steve Jobs, who is given too much credit for being able to predict what people want, is not entirely true.

It's that he had a cause and he simply made products that brought that cause to life, which is to give people the power to stand up. big brother, that's it and we developed technology to empower people, that's it, you know, and those who came to work there recognized that they were part of a revolution, the computer revolution, they constantly talked about it as the revolution, then they invented iTunes, which is more than the iPod revolutionized the music industry transformed it from an album culture to a song culture let us make portable music you know um and that was the music they referred to as the music revolution um and and you were carrying a banner, you know, and you sacrificed for it was a great place to work it was a difficult place to work but it was worth it and that's the question if the sacrifices are worth it and sometimes we hide the pain or the difficulties or the tensions with all the silly fun things that are a salve, let's be honest, I mean they work to a certain extent, but not all stress is bad, you know, I joke, you know, often you know, when we work hard for something we love, it's called passion, we work hard for something we love. you don't love it's called stress now in both cases you're working hard you know what the difference is between you know how to do something you love and you work late and you sacrifice your relationships and you sacrifice your family but you look and I say ah, it was hard but it was worth it, ya You know, versus losing all that stuff and all you do is get a Lamborghini in the end, you know, it's like it's worth it.

I'm not so sure I would do that. again you know um and so I think that's what purpose and cause give us is they give us a reason for sacrifice that's what love gives us because it's the reason for sacrifice that's what the Children, they give us the reason for sacrifice. Your life will change profoundly when you have a child. It's worth it? Yes, is it easy? No. Everyone I've talked to who has kids says it's the hardest thing they've ever done in their life and if you ask them if it's worth it. They'll say yeah, that doesn't go together, you know, when I think about even this podcast and setting concrete goals for what we're doing here, we definitely fell into the trap of saying I think a lot of people consume you. the charts, oh my god, we're number one for now, for now, yeah, and then you scratch your head and you're doing well, so what's next?

What is a more worthy and purposeful goal for us as a team when we are building? something like this podcast because it's so easy to get sucked in, we're born on the charts and sure, and that drives you to a certain extent, yeah, it seems like a reason, whether it's vapid or whatever, but what is it? A better, more worthy goal with a purpose to set, okay, so let's take a step back, uh-oh, can you question me? No, what was the reason you did episode one, um, hearty. I'll give them all to you. I am also very honest.

Podcasting as a medium would be a great opportunity. I thought it would be a really effective means of communication when that is a growing opportunity to grow my personal brand. Well, I'll give you all the reasons, even the selfish ones. Well, number. two, I find it exciting, deeply compelling and liberating when others talk about things and be honest in a way that most people aren't usually honest, so in the first episode I talk about things like masturbation and mental health issues like CEO, the difficulties with For my family, I find all of those things liberating for me, but I know for others listening, especially when we started getting feedback, it was equally liberating for them and then when episode one is a little episode one.

It was more of an experiment, but okay, so episode yeah, episode two, whatever, then it was the comments, so I was doing a lot of other things that were generating bigger views, my Facebook videos would get 10 million each. one, 10 million views each, but the comments I received. Getting from the thousands of people who were listening to this was profound it was deep and intense and they said things like they said things like I can relate to that um that really helped me solve this problem that I had you made me. One of the biggest ones that we have is that you've made me feel like I'm not alone and then if I go to the last like you know, if I go to more recent times, I quit when I left my job and I wasn't anymore.

I needed to do something for money in my life when I took stock because there was a gap of about six months or a year in this podcast, which was when I was leaving my job and I took stock of my life and thought about the things I want to do for the rest of my life and this was one of the things that seemed to hit all the bases. It was fun for me. I can sit and learn from people like you. It feels like, like you said, it's like a service to others. a really deep one, probably the biggest service that I feel like I can provide to the outside world and that is that it makes money, but to be honest, if it makes money, I just spend it on a podcast, so, yeah, and that's where my My thesis is all well and good, so let's back up for a second.

Yes, I'm just taking your own words. I'm not going to add anything here. Would you rather do this to be number one and grow your own brand or would you rather grow this? Do you prefer? Do this to tell the truth so that it helps others tell the truth to themselves and to others, number two, obviously, yes, and your podcast absolutely has a purpose, so when you start to recognize that we do this, we do this to tell the truth so that others can be honest with themselves and others in a way that they struggle to find anywhere else and if we are number one for an incredible period of time, but if we are number two, we still do it. we will, with number four, we will still do it.

If everyone knows that the term will still be valid because there is a reason to do this that is greater now, if the numbers are constantly decreasing and no one is listening, then maybe we are doing something wrong to spread our message, maybe we have made a mistake. . Maybe we are not telling the truth like we used to, we need to re-evaluate if we are still fulfilling our purpose or maybe the form or medium we are using is no longer relevant, so you know, because things change over time too. That's why metrics do matter, but the absoluteness of the metrics doesn't matter, the trend of the metrics does matter, so you have a purpose for this and that means you have to practice that kind of telling the truth with the team that you work with. in this. podcast because you have to live when the mic is off the same way you live when the mic is on and that starts to have a profound impact on you and your team, so if that becomes the purpose instead of being the number One, maybe it gives people a reason to stay here because they believe it has benefited them.

Is there any role for such arbitrary goals? is that they are useful to say that we want to be number one in the United States is that a useful goal to set along with the sense of purpose, they can coexist, they can coexist as long as you recognize the right reason because if you get too obsessed with the goal at the cost of sacrificing the cause, as if there is a hierarchy, the cause comes first because the goal comes first, you can look. I know authors who, and I'm sure you know this. I'm sure there are ways to do it on podcasts too, but I know authors who are number one Amazon best sellers.

That's because you can play with what you can. play the algorithm, you just have to make all your friends buy a book at the same time because it is calculated by hours and congratulations, you can't be number one in Amazon sales with the worst book that exists in the world, you can do it, I've seen it There are companies that you can buy a New York Times bestseller like they know how to game the New York Times algorithm and they buy books all over the country basically you buy the books and they buy them on your behalf so yeah I would have had a chance to look at the publishers, like looking at the publishers' computers where you can see any book, we can track the book sales of any book and they showed me how the trend works, you can know who is gaming the system and there are some very famous authors that I won't mention in this podcast that I know for a fact because I looked at them bragging about being New York Times bestsellers, well, it's because they paid for it and bought all those books themselves.

Well, you can play with all these systems and if you are too obsessed with the number because you think that the number is what gives you credibility, then ethics again fade away again, then the pressure becomes overwhelming and you start doing things that you have no business doing. nothing to see. with the podcast or the cause and they're just about advancing the number so you can go around telling people you got the right number, great for you, you know it and you know it, that's not how I choose to build my business or Live my life, you know, but I think what's more fun is being surprised.

It's okay to be pushed to be number one as long as you come second and the pudding and the cause come first, sure if that's your decision? thing um, but be prepared to answer what's next you know because you can't be number one forever. I love it when companies say I'm number one or I have the number one podcast and you heard I always say for now, for now, those things don't last, even if it's 10 years, they still won't last, quick, we bring on eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA, if you want to be one of those people all you have to do is subscribe, what are you working on in this moment?

Simon, because you are known for writing amazing books and delivering amazing content. Are you working on what motivates you right now? What is your why? Well, my why is to inspire people to do the things that inspire them so that each of us can change our world for the better, that's the foundation. of everything I do and that is the test through which I pass everything I will do. Does this inspire people to make some kind of change or perspective? Why does that matter to you? I am as if that were the core of my being as if it were you why is my wise court of my being that is my personality that is what wakes me up every day is what fills me is what fills me also then andthen I have my cause my just because you know my why is where I come from my cause is where I'm going and my cause is to create a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every morning inspired to go to work and feel safe Wherever they are. are and then the day is fulfilled with the work that they do, you know that if you are going to put stress on something, you will be able to enjoy the fruits of your own labor, you know, build something, look and say, I helped build that.

I know it's a beautiful thing and so any work I do is always to advance that, because there are a lot of things I'm doing, some of which will work and some of which will fail. I started my own label with Penguin Random. house oh it's really called optimism, amazing press where I look for people or ideas that I think need to be shared and that help move the needle and move towards that cause, which is why we've published four books so far and have two on the way. the way that is really exciting uh how to make a plant love you trust first in the power of gifting power and the newest one is called partnership and everyone has a point of view on how to move forward or new ideas on how to move forward on this . into this world that I imagine like this um and all the different perspectives on it, which is really fun um so I have the imprint um I'm working behind the scenes on police reform uh which has been intense and fascinating and a deep education as well watching um I'm doing a little bit of work trying to figure out how to drive innovation within big bureaucracies, so I'm trying to figure out that I'm working behind the scenes, trying to work with someone really progressive, progressive, really infinite. young CEOs or at least younger companies to help them figure out how to build companies with infinite mindset now it doesn't matter if they sell it doesn't matter if they have a liquidity event but they are not driven by the sale they are not driven by the liquidity event, they are driven to build a company that can outlast them and they are driven to build cultures that can stand the test of time and the loss of every employee that you know could have a whole new generation. come in and the company will survive, so I really want to.

I'm looking for those companies that I think are worth supporting and helping them build a new type of company for the next generation. Because I think the way we've been doing it for the last 30 or 40 years hasn't really served the economy of the world and I think we have to find new ways to do it, in other words, I'm putting my money where my mouth is, I'm in all the books I've written about these things. I'm going to try to get under the hood and try to help these companies do it. Your brilliance, you know, I saw it on everyone's list.

The things you do are brilliant, but I also see it in all the work you have created. I see in the content you publish. Your brilliance is very obvious. I sat here with the guy who coached Michael Jordan for 15 years. years and then he trained Kobe and he said that with our brilliance often comes what he calls our dark side, which is the things that we struggle with and that and he says that there tends to be a relationship between our brilliance and our struggle. or our dark side, are you aware of what your dark side is in terms of the cost of your brilliance?

Well, I think first of all, I don't think it's brilliant. I know that sounds falsely humble, but I really don't. I don't think of myself that way. I really consider myself an idiot and I'm not being glib at all. I don't really understand very complex things. And I have pretty bad ADHD, so everyone thinks I'm well-read. and the reality is that I have written more books than I have read and I simply love the idea of ​​reading, no, I can't read, I don't read, I learn by listening and speaking, so uh um and such complex things my brain doesn't work that way. that way and that's why I've learned to ask many, many, many questions so that something can be simplified to the level where I can understand it and, if it's simple, I can understand it.

That means I can repeat it and so my books are my ability to understand complex things by asking other people many, many, many questions so that I can simplify it enough so that other people can understand these complex things and talk about biology. and anthropology. of you know all kinds of things that yes, I know, I have oversimplified them, I am fully aware that you know, like the people who criticize, you know, criticize me like this is pop culture, you know, pop science, I know, but If I do It's all its complexity, all I've done is write a textbook, well, that's not useful, so I don't think of myself the way you receive my work, you know?

And I think maybe you can see the impact of my work. as a genius but let's not confuse that the impact of work that can be perceived as genius does not make the person who produced it the right genius so I reject it I am flattered but I reject praise even if it is a gift I am supposed to give, yes, yeah, um, uh, take back your gift, it has no use here, um, so when you ask me what the balance is between genius, genius, this being out of scale, so far away, there, well, yes I do.

If I don't think about myself or even live my life that way, then the balance of something is probably a little bit closer to the middle, so I have darkness, of course I have darkness, you know? Do I find that darkness absolutely fascinating? I do, what is it? I mean a lot of my insecurities, uh, it's just that I've dealt with some of the ones that I have. I don't think I've ever said it out loud on a podcast like this. I could have mentioned a couple. times frighteningly like people always ask me, so

simon

, what books are you reading or what books are on your nightstand?

Well, I can answer that question because I have a stack of about five or six books on my nightstand and I've read none of them, but they've been there for like two years. I have read some of two. I honestly don't remember the last book I finished other than my own because I had to read it for the recorded book. I know from the audiobook um and so I would always answer that question, name one of the books or just name one of my perennial favorites like oh man, look up the meaning, you know, and I'm just now getting comfortable with the idea. to say out loud I don't read books and not because I don't like them, it's because I have a hard time understanding the good news is that I learned to learn without them, I would like to be able to read because there are many good things in them and I know that they enter a level of depth that I really want to understand, but there you have it and I think that goes towards honesty.

You know, I'm realizing that I'm trying to answer the question and avoid embarrassment. It's valuable to people who like it. read books, but for people who have a hard time reading books, I just made them feel worse, you know, and someone pointed out to me that it's like every time I lied about how I never lied, they said what books are you reading, they said, well , this is on my nightstand um or I think this book is important, you know, or I just bought this new book, which should be true, I just didn't read them, that there is a group of people who also struggle to read for any dyslexia or add or whatever and I'm living proof that you can manage fine without it now that doesn't mean you can't learn but you have to find the trick there are a couple of books that I finished um I finished I finished the davinci The code is very good and you know why, because it is written with very, very, very short chapters, like three pages.

I'm the person who always looks ahead at the pages to see how far I have left to go and if it's like 50 pages. Like, yeah, how does that change the way you write? However, if you are not a reader, when you are ironic, right? Yes, yes, it's ironic that I ended up writing books. Writing is a it's a it's different um because yeah it's really fun when I'm editing because if I get bored, I just cut that whole section out and the books have my sense of humor, like there's little jokes in there because it makes me laugh and I write about things. . that I think are really interesting, I tell the stories that interest me and I can make myself cry with some of those stories in the book and I can give myself goosebumps with some of the stories in that book and if I'm doing it for myself I'm probably too working for others, you know, but I love ideas and I love dissecting ideas and understanding them and I really love understanding why things work.

I'm a little kid at heart, you know, I want to know why not as a noun, like I popularized it, I would start with why, but as a question like why is it like this, I really love that question, it's a little kid question, ya You know, and for some reason, as adults, we stop asking and start blindly. accept and that doesn't mean I have to be rebellious in the question it's not an accusation like why do you do it that way it's a genuine curiosity like why does it work that way and I love that and when I discover things that are it's enlightening for me and I can explain it to my friends my friends can understand these things and the joy that I see on people's faces and when they, when I challenge their perspective, then the fun thing is to share it well, I'm going to give you back the gift of brilliance.

Thank you. The reason I think I use the word brilliance is because sometimes you meet people who have one of the three. I think you use the word genius. If you know people, sometimes you have one of the three. What I consider to be the holy trinity of those who affect change as speakers, sometimes they have wisdom, sometimes they are good storytellers, and sometimes they have delivery, but you rarely meet people who have all three in terms of when. you deliver ideas the way you can, you like punctuated sentences and the tone keeps people incredibly engaged and I think you gave me the root cause of that when you said that you have ADHD and that you're a bad reader because you have a hard time retaining it. you find it difficult for other things to hold your attention so you are very good at holding the attention of another person listening and then the roundabout way in which you make a point also makes it incredibly appealing from a narrative perspective and then the wisdom or the simple idea behind it we can understand because I've sat here before and honestly we've deleted podcasts because someone comes in, they're a mathematical genius, yes, but when you ask them to make that complex mathematical idea relevant and resonant in my own life is impossible we removed the episode because they are too smart to simplify for sure um but you can do it that's why your books are so important and that's why all the content that you publish online and on your YouTube and Instagram channels are very necessary.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. Oh, great, so they wrote it into the story. They don't know who they are writing it for. I love it. and you, when you write your question, you don't know who you're writing it for either, but it's our way of all the guests talking to each other, which is cool and it's a long linear scene. May I know who is asking you? I don't know what was the happiest moment in your life so far the happiest I literally can't answer the question is for me is my happiness doesn't exist in the past is that I have done many things that made me happy but I am much more interested in what what's going to happen next.

I'm probably better at answering the question: what's the happiest thing you're going to do? Actually, I'm blanking out, what's the happiest thing you're going to do? What I'm happiest doing is solving some of the problems or at least contributing to the solution of some of those problems we talked about. I will be very happy to help when I can contribute to police reform in this country. I'll be very happy when I can find better systems to help reinvent what modern business is like and reject everything that Jack Welch built, you know, and disrupt shareholder supremacy and the way we build companies now I'll be very happy to demonstrate a impulse in a completely different direction.

I'll be very happy if the whole sum of my work makes me feel like I've moved the needle a little closer, though not definitively. towards that vision I spoke of of an inspired, safe and fulfilled world, ironically, they sound like infinite games, many of them, yes, I don't think so, I mean, all the things that will make me happy will be incomplete, I don't expect them to. be. complete what will bring me joy like when when you if let me rephrase the question for myself, which is how will you know that you lived a life worth living, it's pretty much the same question, right, and the answer will be because other people will continue. where I left and continued without me because it was clear enough, my cause was compelling enough, and the tools I left behind were sharp enough for others to figure out not only how to use them but also how to improve them and reinvent new ones.

I will have lived a life. It's worth living if I can look back and say you'll go on without me because you don't need me and that's the point Simon, thank you, it's a great honor and a pleasure, and it's very clear why you were probably the most requested guest. This podcastIt comes from our viewers and you've definitely given a lot more than I could have hoped for in terms of generosity and wisdom towards me, but also towards our listeners in this conversation, so thank you very much for your generosity. simon, thank you, it's been a pleasure, and you, it's one of the best podcasts I've ever done.

I mean, you're so attractive and motivated, your cause comes across clearly, and you're so driven by the truth, you're so bound by the truth. The truth is, anyone sitting here really wants to offer only the truth. um and it's a cause worth fighting for. Thank you. I will accept the gift. We are all looking for ways to live a little more sustainably and make more conscious decisions in our daily lives. daily routines, so when a brand like my Energy, which I've talked about before, offered to sponsor this podcast, I felt like deep down I knew I had to help them share their mission of creating an even greener world.

It doesn't get much more satisfying than that and their products provide an easy and cost effective way to make a sustainable change in your life and they have some new products coming out that I can't wait to use and I'll let you know how I use those products so yeah Are you a my Energy customer right now, let me know your favorite products below in the comments section and if you haven't checked them out yet, visit myenergy.com and find out a lot more about who they are and what they're doing if you're one of those people who want to make a sustainable change myenergy.com is the place for you