YTread Logo
YTread Logo

Roundtable: Push, pull or both? Top coaches discuss recurve shot execution | Summer Summits

Roundtable: Push, pull or both? Top coaches discuss recurve shot execution | Summer Summits
welcome to world archery's coaching summit and today's workshop is all about

push

and

pull

about the release backhand front hand all these things are going to be

discuss

ed today i'm karen bastian but before we get cracking with this topic let's introduce our experts okay let me let me go first my name is kishikali i'm working for usc archery head coach and also i'm serving for world archery as a chair of the coach committee hello everybody next on the list sir richard priest priestman i'm the head coach for archery gb hello i'm jacqueline barozda i'm a coach of the dutch archery team hello i am dr argen uh i'm a head coach and technical director of turkish archery team and also i'm a deputy chair of coaching committee from word archery hello everybody my name is juan carlos ogado i'm the director of the waragi excellence center and director of the foundation of our archery and glad to join you all well thank you everybody for your today we've got a very interesting subject and juan carlos i'm going to ask you what on earth are we talking about when we're talking about front hand backhand release should you

push

or should you

pull

can you just explain the basis of our uh subject of conversation today okay you give me the easiest question to start with okay thank you very much i would say that archery we are using

both

hands and one has to do one thing the other one has to do another thing and that's when the...
roundtable push pull or both top coaches discuss recurve shot execution summer summits
complex start we have to get that position in this position we have to be online we have to get our reference to make sure that when we are

push

ing or expanding or making the

shot

we are directing the right direction so the dilemma start when we try to aim with the sight and we have a tendency to block it to try to fix it but when you fix at the same time you have to move to pass through the clicker so that's the problem when we move we move the side as well when we fix the side we have the tendency to stop also the expansion and here was the the different ways to do it or

push

it more

pull

it more on

both

sides some talk about

pull

push

some toggle expansion some go further in having a proper position because without a proper position you cannot start with expansion there are different exercises or technique to do it and i think that's what we're going to

discuss

what i think all is about of getting to understand what is stopping us to make the

shot

and what facilitate to make it the right direction oh thanks for that explanation kisik i'm going to come to you next um in the simplest terms to start with and then i'd like you to why is this so critical to a top archer i think first of all how you expanding either left

push

or

pull

this is most the crucial point in order to hit the target more consistently that's why this topic we're not really talking publicly much but i think this is a great opportunity we can share information with all

coaches

to...
roundtable push pull or both top coaches discuss recurve shot execution summer summits
the students so consistency is what it's all about well that's uh what a lot of archery is about uh jacqueline i'm going to come to you uh because i want to talk i want to talk to you about how you coach this particular art of uh of the release of the arrow we are very much practicing with a flowmaster and the basic of a a proper release and timing is the balance so you also need to have a very steady head when you so the draw length is always the same okay got tug uh a question for you then around about the general technique because i think for for you experts you know exactly what you're talking about perhaps for someone who's coming into archery very early a youngster perhaps what are we actually talking about i mean literally from standing on the shooting line what what what is this subject about you mean in the release yeah and how we get to that point yeah that point is most most critical part of the shooting but also most difficult part to teach because first we have to teach how to draw and how to make correct alignment because as one color says before peer drop is most important point of the shooting for me for my point of view if archer have correct shoulder alignment if archer have correct drawing it's easy to teach the release because release has to be uh clear in the archer's mind first archer has to understand and also as like jacqueline says draw dante has to be consistent and every

shot

has to be we can we always try to get exactly...
roundtable push pull or both top coaches discuss recurve shot execution summer summits
the same but it's not possible but it should be as much as same and also when you start teaching the release you have to say you don't have to say it is really is because in the name of in the when you're talking about the word release it make it seems the archer has to be relaxed just after release but really is not end of the shooting the release is just beginning of the shooting actually because after that we have to have correct follow through follow through if the archer thing when he just or he or she just release the string they are shooting is over that will be a really big problem it will be really difficult to solve another things what what it comes after and because of this it's really important to teach release and we have to decide which point is exactly correct to start to teach release then in my point of view before release we have to teach proper shooting proper drawing and correct drawing alignment shoulder alignment okay interesting stuff uh richard uh let's assume we've got to that point uh that goku has talked about we've done the perfect draw um explain uh what we're talking about when we talk about clicker and release how do the two relate to each other um chris i just wanted to just go back a little step first really because um one thing we haven't said already is is the fundamental part about the archery

shot

is movement um without movement we don't have a

shot

uh we don't get through a clicker we don't...
we don't get to the any

execution

or follow through position so you know the the movement starts it's hooking gripping and it finishes at the end of the follow through the clicking bones is just one instant in time in the middle of the

shot

process so ideally we've got to full draw we've found our alignment our site so many of the middle we've generated our movement from whichever side of the body or

both

sides that we get it from the clicker drops whilst we're moving uh there's a subconscious reaction to that it's not conscious mind and our fingers and bow on um complete to the end of the follow-through okay and so i don't see that i don't like the word release that just sounds like as the doctor says we we just open the fingers we don't press a button we don't open it's just an automatic response to the clicker you see top arches that the fingers still appear to be in the curled position at the end of the follow-through this is like nothing's happened to the fingers at all so are you richard you're talking then about a sort of more holistic uh approach to the to everything from drawing to releasing rather than specifically at that one point is that is that how you how you coach it yeah that's how i coach it i don't do i love the idea of release i think that just um that so many archers mess up because they don't finish the full process and i try to talk about the whole thing together like holistic as...
you say and when does that process start how do i suppose end the process starts um as soon as you make the decision to start and open the boat and it ends with the the very end of the follow through when the bows stop moving okay okay interesting stuff okay juan carlos going back to you um look there's a heck of a load of detail in here all of you very knowledgeable lots of uh archery specific vernacular one thing that i do want to just hone in on a little bit is we're talking about we have talked about

push

and

pull

what what does that mean can you can you describe that to a you know a non-archer like me i would like to go a bit further i'd explain how i understand the difficulties to make it happen so by working with the difficulties we can try to see what we all have in common and then there are different styles to do it let's first of all clarify for me technique is those position that is easy to do consistently without less effort so for this to reach a good position you have to be in a proper bone alignment so all the muscle you use to expand you are not using them to hold the position so for me this is a key part for many years i've been having wrong positions on my muscles are more focused in keeping the position that in fact expanding so that was blocking me to expand and with many arts as we work we have the challenge that they are not the right position they are not aligned the shoulders are not aligned the body is not straight so whatever they...
put effort as creatures say when they want to make the movement in fact the system is changing constantly because they are not balanced and not stable not in line so for me the expansion start first by cutting a proper position when you're in a proper position you don't need to make too much effort to hold the ball and then the second key part is if the finger is not the hook of the string is not good it's expanding you put tension in the system and it's moving or when you put tension in the system the grip is sliding this also stop us to expand so we have to get a proper position the hand proper grip so when we have a proper body position a proper grip position we put force on the system in fact the bow start expanding and then we can go to different technique or styles which is i

push

more frangili very much protein in front i

pull

more many of the european arches or i make up expansion well i don't like to say 50 50 because it's very difficult to know 50 50 but at least making them

both

sides expanding and then we can go to a specific style like kisik which is teaching the holding and the transfer and all this which at the end always start with a proper position so for helping archers and

coaches

to reach the expansion before going into what is

pull

and what is

push

i will insist very much to get in a good position bone alignment arm alignment shoulder alignment and get a good grip and a go hand position that whatever effort you put in the system is...
used to expand the bow and not to change the position i'm not sure if i've been clear enough i i think i understand i think all of you doing the same sort of thing you've got to get to this good position first before we even start to begin to talk about

push

pull

release the clicker and all that kind of stuff so i think 80 percent of the problem of answers when the node would expand is for the previous stages it's not for expanding itself it's just not the proper grip or not the proper position for the purposes of uh this workshop let's let's assume that the arches we're talking about can get to that good starting position uh keysight i'm going to come to you and before i do i i'm just going to explain to the audience out there that well these guys are talking about

push

and

pull

we're talking about being in that perfect position as mike carlos has already said and it's whether you

push

the expansion uh with the front hand or

pull

with the backhand very very basically i i know you guys are sitting there going there's a bit more to it than that which under keysight you you coach amongst other people brady uh brady ellison brady talks balance rather than

push

and

pull

and i think juan carlos has already said you you perhaps take a slightly unique approach can you explain a little bit more about that and specifically what brady's talking about when he talks about balance i think as a as an archer when we are looking for...
something more steadier or like the no changing distance of the drawings while you're expanding and make more accuracy make more consistency if balance has to be there so people like what i heard a lot of things from the international archers talking about how they should some people say i'm

push

ing some people say i'm just

pull

ing however if you do not balance while you do that then your

shot

is not going to be consistent as well as you not hit the target well so this reason why we have to think about more scientifically how we can approach this expansion phase because expansion is the most critical and crucial step of the shooting no matter how you

pull

back and no matter how you hold the ball and no matter how you ready mentally but if you're not expanding properly then everything is just flew apart it's not going to work properly so for my case i would more thinking more to

push

the bomb rather than

pull

because there are many reasons especially think about it how we can make a better balance this depends on which dominant hand is yours so most likely people shooting more like non-dominant side with the form and dominant side without

pull

ing the string correct so that how we're going to balance in between this non-dominant side and first dominant side so when we teaching these things people may think about i'm

push

ing today and months later now i'm

pull

ing you know they change their feeling but that's we cannot just go with what archer...
is saying as we as coach we have to stick with the more reasonable uh teaching method which means i recommend have a more using more non-dominant side first that way naturally you can balance means archers can have much much more stronger steadier and efficient way they can shoot they can find out very easily okay jacqueline do you do you agree with that approach is that the same approach you take or do you change for the for different arches we are looking for different ways also you can only focus on one thing at a time and when you are focusing on your chest in the middle you can make the movement with one focus in the middle and you opened your chest and then you have a 50 50. and you can also uh look at the weather it's now very windy here so you need to have more uh muscle uh on the front so you can aim better with your sides so conditions conditions and and yes specifically what you're training at the same time uh doctor do you have any more thoughts on on that and specifically that that moment of expansion yeah about the expansion i always try to focus just one point after drawing i always keep saying to my archers just drop the ball and just be sure you drove 99 and there should be only one percent left and that one percent will move just with one part of your body then you have to understand which point is that i always focus on the right side actually i don't uh check archer's dominant side or number one side but as you say we always i always focus...
on the drawing side not the

push

ing side just like him but i always try to teach the archer the expansion should be as like a trigger all archer has to have some trigger point then archer has to release when he decide not when he click clicker draw when archer decides he has to move that part which is uh which part i don't know every ever actually has different point i mean for yasmin we just focus on his elbow point he she when she drove the ball he she just focusing just a little bit rise up her right elbow then it it it works for meta it's completely different we always focus on the transfer when he full draw he just tried to transfer his uh elbow he just tried to move back his elbow a little bit not too much that means only two millimeters but in every archer we have different kind of methods but always i always try to make it only one point after full draw archer has to focus on just one point to move just one millimeter and because of this i said before shoulder alignment and pre-draw position most important then how to teach the release richard um i've got a prop well i think it's a simple question but i'm sure it's got a very complicated answer why carlos mentioned that um that european archers tend to

pull

more so everyone's talking about a balance and and difference between athletes is is it the case that you would coach to to

pull

more no i've always been a

push

er um right through my early shooting days which started a long time ago...
and for mo well all my archery career all the

coaches

to say that was wrong and yet my instincts were right and i wish that had more confidence in my own thoughts right from the start

push

ing you're a visionary you started first yeah i know um the so my premise really was that i mean for the early days i could not get through the clicker

pull

ing because it made me very anxious i could never do a good release i couldn't follow through properly so my logic was if i could have a fixed back sight you know fixed on the chin so i used to clamp everything around my neck and and then my idea was a bit more like a rifle i have a fixed back sight and then i have this ability to extend off the front and move the sight into the middle um and follow through into the middle this gets uh i get a lot of questions about this in england and

coaches

much prefer to

pull

but i just think it's fundamentally flawed because if you start

pull

ing through the clicker in a linear way you're gonna move your backside the strings gonna slide on your chin you're gonna get string drag you're going to get a clutched release half the time so i think it's a good way to learn but i think it's fundamentally flawed when you want to get to a higher level okay now you talked about a number of things there richard can i can i just ask you to clarify one thing you're talking about uh your backside moving what what do you mean about that very special well if you just think we have uh...
with a

recurve

bow well say the compound but you have a peep site so you have a fixed back sight with a

recurve

bow we've got this movable head we've got the string can go anywhere on your face against your nose so if we're

pull

ing through the dangers as you're

pull

ing through the clicker you'll start to squash your nose the string slides on your chin or you

pull

your chin around so wherever the head moves you're going to hit somewhere else on the target so it's very hard to have consistent grouping that way so i want to have the head being fixed a fixed points on the chin and just a constant really and then if we think of the the line around your head and your neck this is the can the axis of your

shot

s and everything revolves around that so whether you're expands off the front or lever off the back or we rotate our chests we have this fixed central point i think it's quite easy for the archers to get the heads around that to understand it that's it's perfect exactly what it's the the key part what i find on many archers they're very focused in thinking that the accuracy come from the side but in fact they not accuracy come by changing the the knocking point to the eyes this distance and as you say the string left and right is what's making the arrow not accurate so as much as you start

pull

ing back more you can change this end of the arrow and change the angle and the direction of the arrow so that's why i also...
recommend very much like kisik lee it's more about

pull

ing uh

push

ing sorry

push

ing going to the target which this you can adjust the side and keeping this part stable you create a back tension you create a tension on the back and you start going to the target which i don't know about this prominent arm but i love it kissing is an excellent example the dominant arm yes dominant arm yes the dominancy but i very much insist on the answer to make sure that this part the distance from the knock to the eyes and the alignment is consistent and that is easy to achieve if you are not

pull

ing but you are

push

ing okay so yeah look for novices like me uh how do how do we spot that what are the symptoms of uh kibo bay swung his bow very fast after the

shot

is is that a symptom of of

push

ing hard i i don't i don't think so because the people who actually play at the podium they have a really good balance it's 90 percent archers has a good balance if they're not but the balance then that the critical movement is very big and move movement will be okay for their arrows grouping but i would say more than 90 archers when they come to their podium they are all very steady and balanced well why because there are sounds our mechanical sounds technique so some people may that's what i say some people may feel like today i'm

push

ing my ball but a couple of months later i feel like i'm doing more

pull

ing my the throwhand side they could i just feeling can be...
changed time to time but we have to stick with the what is principle over to make the better balance for each person to shoot better so interesting point is like if you asking you archers okay let's try to

push

you warm today and then next day try to even just only

pull

ing your ball on the draw side today and you can see the what the people react what people are saying to to

coaches

which one is better more efficient for them to shoot but that is what i'm coming from the make the perfect balance is the best key for the expansion and make this

execution

more accurate and consistent jacqueline how did k6 talked about something that's that's um for most of us we're going to see these tiny small details how do you spot that and how do you create a method for each specific archer you you can check that when you i have a tape on your chest card and when they are in full draw you see the string going backwards or forwards so you can see if they were

push

ing or they are

pull

ing and when you film it you can also let see it's to the athlete so they see what they're doing and then they understand it also better so you're creating another reference point on the body that you then film and video analyzing you can go through it and whilst you may have a framework for teaching uh how to shoot do do you change your method or do you tinker it specifically for individual athletes and and how do you identify how to do which which version of the the

shot

...
that's so that's difficult everybody is is different and uh with youth they are not growing completely so maybe the the length of the arms is not correctly and it's it's individual so you have to you have to be very specific with each departure and and more so than that as they're going through maturity yes okay got to get do you have anything to add to that i mean are there other techniques that you use uh to spot uh little changes that you can make to improve some of your top arches i just want to add that before getting the top arches it's really difficult to find proper way to shoot because archers are growing too fast we always working with the top archers but when they become in that point they always start to be in the national teams in 13 years old 14 years old and this these aids are really they're fast they are growing really fast in that age and every day they are changing and their muscle lengths are changing their bones are getting taller in for example uh four years ago i was cutting one dozen error of per month for meter he was growing at least every month this is really difficult to find proper way until they get 19 or 20 years old but when the archers get 19 and 20 years old and in that case also if the archer have at least 10 years experience it's easy to find some focusing points when they start shooting in the shooting line and also easy to manage their mind but before then this is really important archer needs some...
experience about to have some proper shoot and proper release actually yeah so you're getting the miles on the clock early doors but you've got to walk a full maturity before you can really do the fine tuning richard do you have anything to add to that do you follow that one specific model and and that's how all your archers shoot or do you have that tinkering right at the end no i think i have to um find out what the archer can actually do so that's a phone in the office here that's that's going i i just some archers can only do it one way i have to find out how they can actually get through the clicker um some are not comfortable off the front somewhat comes off the bats some like to rotate um really it's getting into the optimum position that full draw um and then how can that archer get through that one millimeter uh under pressure in a competition easily okay look you've you've brought me to a nice point now and i want to ask uh all of you the same i want to get an answer from all of you for the same question why carlos we'll start with you uh obviously you guys are very important uh on the field any coach in any sport is very important but surely these top archers can feel the difference they must be able to understand especially when they've been at the top for for a long time can they make these small adjustments themselves or does it always require an external party to give them that information in my way of coaching i try...
to teach the archers to learn how to take their own decision and feel so i think when you start with an archer's beginner you have to give a lot of instruction but my goal is to teach them progressively enough knowledge that when they reach the top the coach is a consultant it's just there when they have a question and they already have the answer they just want to know your opinion so answering your question i think a top archer should know should feel what is this little difference and you are there as a coach yes to to be a consultant to to agree or to give your opinion when the archer asks but in this level i i'm sure that brady knows very well if he's close to a clicker if he's struggling if he he knows enough the challenges and how to solve them that's that should be working training and answering your question yes i thought much i should feel it and we coach i don't think we can do much more in this in competition in training we can debate and try to help them to find some of the solutions when they come to us i want to call colleagues just sticking with you do you say that they can feel it this is a really wide question i know but can you define it for someone who's watching archery and and wants to understand a little bit more about what the arch is going to especially at that crucial point what does it feel like actually it's about feeling when you're shooting you don't see yourself so it's very difficult to understand...
what you are doing and kissing was saying before sometimes the archers feel they're

push

ing and sometimes they feel they're

pull

ing and in fact they're doing the same it's the feeling very subjective so what archers do when they train is to try to create a feeling by touching bottoms making the shooting sequence they create a general feeling of the

shot

so they know what button they have to catch to create a good

shot

when you go in the competition you have more adrenaline you lose a bit this feeling but you know what button you have to touch what sequence of the

shot

you have to keep going to to release you to make your

shot

and you have so many thousands of arrows that your body knows so the only thing we can do by thinking not properly or thinking too much or not focusing is to distract and lose this feeling so i know it's difficult to understand what the feeling of a good

shot

but i trust you trust me any archer will make a good

shot

and feel it like wow that's what i want to do and this is a consequence of touching the right bottle and the proper sequence always in the same way that's training about yeah richard your thoughts on that top arches yes of course it's all about feelings i mean you know in competitions it is our shooting is is almost a little bit more rough we we're not focusing on all the details we just focus on one thing uh and we're trying to get off a good clean

shot

um if we're having to move too much through...
the clicker then the feelings well you know straight away when you've come up short but i guess that's one of the things that i see most in competition when somebody is struggling is that they haven't set the

shot

up properly so they put so much pressure on themselves to try and get through the expansion bit they're having to do too much very interesting point i think i might come back to that shortly richard gox thoughts about uh the top archers and and whether they feel things and do you see it differently you you deal with so many top archers yourself for me it's a little bit different because i have some basic rules about the shooting for much martial has to follow that basic rules but at the end of course they have some different feelings day by day but also another point of my view the feeling is okay it's important archery is completely about feeling but but the main thing is not the feeling just doing archer doesn't have to try to feel he just have to try to do it on the training also we are working on it and because of this in the competition i have some basic rules archer has to follow that basic rules but at the end they are making some slightly changes during the during their end but i always keep saying to my archer if you follow my rules at the end if you have bad result this is my responsibility because i am the responsible person to find proper solutions for your problems but if you try your own way it is your problem you have to...
solve that problem with your own way we have to you have to decide something when the archers become the true national team i always keep saying these things i have some basic rules if you follow me i will be responsible if not okay you can try you can stay if you can stay here you're always welcome but if you cannot stay here i cannot do anything more for you and this is what i'm thinking but about the feeling i'm agree archery is completely about feeling but i really don't like when the archer says i don't feel good today you don't have to feel good you have to shoot good that's it you have to do do it you don't just don't try to feel it just do it because if your brain makes same orders through your muscles your muscles have to follow it but if you try to what did i order to my muscles then you will get some a lot of problems this is main problem for the archery i mean i can say for the turkish archers this is exactly the biggest problem now because when they start shooting especially in the competition they just try to find their best feeling what they have just two or three days before in the training but it is different day and you wake up earlier than that you eat different things you are in different fields you are in different better conditions your body is completely different that and that day you have to find the survive for that day you don't have to try to feel same feelings as you have three days before or one month...
before it and this is what i think about it so you too that's why you have nike yes do it no yeah this is a message that's why a publicity well done just do it don't feel it you create a feeling you don't have to look for the consequence of doing yes it's not emotional support this is just as we should say when we start this is a moving star sport always you say this is a mortal sport not a combat it's like we are human we have to feel and have emotion occasionally i'll come to you on unless i i want to get everyone's a point on this but i i absolutely hear what

both

uh richard and uh got to have said about that that uh it doesn't matter how you feel on the day you've just got to go through your process but just go back to this feeling for the top archers for sure can feel this is the this is what i'm hearing guys yep i think maybe we have to learn from each other is for example the top level archers they are all stubborn because they are more you know stay with they were comfortable drawing and with the feeling but they always have room to improve that's what number one thing they have to take the step as well as when i coach more intermediate young low level archers i can learn more teaching by them so but i think maybe more likely is communication in between archer and coach so when you teach something by

coaches

directions i think the feedback is very important from archers you know we cannot just

push

actress to do what...
kochi wants to do it but i think they're communicating in between archers and coach to accept what

coaches

wants to drive and what the archers struggle with direction so more likely if you just communicating as a team i think everyone can go through any you know situation or any difficulty through the through the coaching and finally your thoughts on this idea of uh the athletes having an understanding and a feeling they can feel when things aren't going right they can notice it and and even adapt yeah our top athletes notice when then they feel they feel and and and you can see it often because when the feeling is not good the timing is often off uh it's straightly too long that they hold their arrow and then they also have too many time to think what they are going to do or they're going to do wrong so timing it's it's very important okay well this this is an interesting topic but i i want to i want to come back a little bit from just the very top arches and start talking about those archers who want to get to the top uh they've they've done some miles already they've done some training they have a good understanding of the position they need to get into uh i want to talk to what you do from a coaching perspective in two scenarios scenario number one in the training field when when you're trying to get them to the top what changes can you make there and then and how do you do it uh and then how do you compare that to making those...
changes in competition on the shooting line for real on those days that uh you know the pressure is really on jacqueline start with start with you on that one oh that's that's that's not easy to to answer i think it's uh the athletes must do what they learn on the on the trainings and not going to focus on the target so they need to stay on the line with the body and the movements they make this is on the training field you're talking about yes now also in in the competitions competitions need to be on the body not on the target okay i understand that but let's just i just want to talk let's just stick with training on the training field if you notice a mistake if you notice a a mistake that keeps happening over over and over again perhaps drawing too much

pull

ing too much

push

ing too much how do you change it on that on that training field most of all i think it's with the balance so we are going back to the balance to the feeds to the alignments of the of the body so back to basics keysight back to basics yes back to basics kisik what about you where what do you do on the training field when you spot uh someone doing the same mistake over and over again specifically when we're talking about call this balance i think you know most important thing is just must understand how they can perform under pressure rather than shooting better in practice time because practice is like you have a shelter you know everyone can show up but still i...
cannot believe it like for example when i go to the world cup level the first day when we have official practice day i just cannot believe it by myself how people should so well you know well when you come to the competition it's not many people can shoot 680s yet right the world is moving and better but still practice and competition totally different environment so we as coach while they we approach to top level archers we need these things better work on for the for the future is because

coaches

know what is going to happen under pressure this is the reason why i think communication make them understanding what we're trying to teach what we're trying to achieve and then actually we'll you know accept that and you know time time you know you have to break down and go to the brain barrel and you just you know spend a couple of hours to all the basic things to fix the issues but the more likely as a human being they have to understand they have to agree what i needed to do in order to be better i think that is key if you are just a you know trained horse or trained dog you know you don't need to explain you know you just make them to do it but archery is a human you know human sports which means most important things actually understand what we need why we need these things to do okay so back to basics for jacqueline uh combination of training work and uh managing your human emotions i guess on the competition field for kisik gok took what about you would...
you add to that i'm talking again specifically about the differences you could make uh in training and competition in in terms of this this release this final part of the action idea my idea also will be the same as jacqueline and cusik maybe it will be combination because if i should have some new mistakes during the training on the competition that means there's some problem in the in the routine and we have to find that problem in the routine we have to return back uh from beginning then we have to clarify all steps uh step by step his routine then we can define where's the main problem and we can solve it before starting computation and because of this of course we need time we need to understand we need some feedback exactly then also we have to have some i mean i always filming the arches before going to competition then i always try to filming the archers during the competition to to evaluate after competition or during the competition also it's really important to have some data we need some we should have some data before then we can compare and we can understand where there's a problem and it it will be easy to explain to archer and make them understand and make it a clear routine again so getting back to that consistency uh and which is well seems to be the running theme whenever we're talking about archery richard would you add anything to what your esteemed colleagues have said on this subject of uh of fixing problems spotting problems and...
fixing them on the training field or in competition um yeah i think the most exciting part for me as a coach i think is um is watching the arches in competition when you observe them there you see breakdown points or errors in technique that never seem to happen in training so i try not to get wrapped up in the emotions of a competition and just clear matter but just i'm just looking for the breakdown points and then we can address those when we get back onto the training ground or sometimes we can fix them on the during the competition but often there isn't time especially in matches um but yeah the observation part is is crucial but yeah for sure archers break down in competition that's why most don't win well only one can win most of the time exactly everyone carlos uh let's go back uh to the the very basics again as jacqueline suggested we should do um if we if we're getting to the point where we want to to break into the world's top uh archery uh teams uh what would what would be the very specific things that you would say need to be trained on and are there any specific exercises for example to practice balance that these archers can do to improve okay you change the subject fast i was answering they have already for the previous one but okay i will go on that one i would say one of the the first thing is it's the work it's trained hard and i see many many artists who has a big goal has a lot of ambitions but they are not willing to...
put the time and therefore that is needed to reach this place so unfortunately it's about work work work and more work and of course if you are going to work and put so much effort you have to get the right exercise and right technique so get a good coach and and start working with a method and with a plan and a program but trying to reach a high level without putting your time work and effort and focus uh body and minds to your goals is impossible it's a i used to say if it's easy it's not archery it's football so actually you have to put the time and you have to put the effort the easy part is we are not an opponent we are our opponent you are your limit which sometimes is good but sometimes it's you have to deal with your own issues to reach higher levels so for me this is the key part and make sure that the archery when they come to you and wants to reach a high goal they understand that the high level of commitment and work that is needed and it's not going to happen tomorrow it might happen in five six seven or eight years and this is this intention that's as more i want to do it as faster as it comes is not true it's a small work and quality work you put as more it come but in a long time it's nothing short and i would like to go back to the difference training and competition because one thing that we struggle a lot is we let the archers train to calm and to comfort zone and to relax and then in competition they try to hunt and...
of course competition training will be never the same we have a lot of adrenaline competition that we don't have in training so we are going to feel different actually feel different and they need to accept this but we as

coaches

can try to make challenge and take them out of the comfort zone training so i used to say when the archer know how to make a good

shot

you need to find a way how to make it consistent but in making it consistent we have to make difficulties we have to make it make them lose its feeling make

push

up and then try to get the feeling back and make them run to a target come back increase a heartbeat and then try to make them feel back as strong as faster they recover the feeling when they lose it as more we get them ready for competition and then as kisik say it's about feeling of focusing in competition what matters and there are so many things happening in competition that's very easy that i actually focus on the wrong thing how is shaking how is breathing thinking on future and teaching them how to deal in competition is much more important to perform that not making them shoot more arrows in a comfort calm and weight so on in the in the practice field so i like very much to put challenges in training make sure prices make suddenly new things that take them out the comfort zone which help them to prepare the competition and the observing of reach out observe the archers in competition i used to film them and then show them the body language...
it's amazing how many things they do that they don't realize so if we want to get them better in competition we have to help them to create the right habits and the right focus in training by reaching training knowing how to think how to self-talk and how to focus which gives them some more confidence to do it to stick to something when they feel a bit lost in the competition that's uh fascinating stuff and you've brought i've written down a number of things that you guys have all talked about and you've kind of brought them all into one answer but can i just ask you something very specific before i move on and ask the the rest of your colleagues the same thing that this idea i love this idea of uh making things a little bit more pressured in training to to replicate what might happen in competition what can an archer do by themselves in training uh you know without their coach around them all the time which i'm sure is you know you know they're not going to be a coach there all the time it's difficult that coach can surprise himself if i'm not just shooting i suddenly stop him and say if you make a 10 i give you 100 euros that's a surprise he's difficult he can do it himself but i would say the archer if he wants to practice by himself or he or she and want to make his life a bit more complicated ready for competition is create challenges as soon as you feel that it's in a comfort zone and training is about knowing how to...
make the

shot

and knowing how good you can be but as soon as you know how good you can be you have to challenge this so many very often there's windy days and i just go in though no no stay outside and challenge yourself with wind or it's a rainy day and they're gonna know get wet i i i was famous in spain to be a masochist i was shooting with rain rain with the snow i wanted to get ready for everything and challenge my form you lose a form okay you go back indoor you build it when you build it you go back out and challenge it and by challenge your form and your your goals as much as possible you become stronger so that's what i would like to say if you're not just alone and has no coach to challenge and give surprises try to find challenge and try to see in any moment you cannot be shooting like a robot you have to find out how much you can improve and how much difficult you can do it and bid this time for those of you watching this workshop who don't necessarily know who juan carlos is first off where have you been uh he's not talking about being a masochist he's talking about the sacrifices he made in order to get an olympic gold medal in 1992. so that's uh go back and have a look at that i'm sure you can all find that uh in the footage uh jacqueline do you agree with juan carlos putting challenges in play in training especially for this thing that we're talking about today this

push

-

pull

balance this release the click all these...
things we talked about is that what you do and how do you do it yes that's also what we're doing and we have a lot of rain and we have a lot of wind so that's not so difficult to train in the netherlands but also uh he said something about self-talk a positive self-talk talk to yourself you are good you are doing doing well and that you need to do also in a competition when it's when it's not feeling good then you must not do a self-talk to you when you to downsize you but to pick you up so and and that you also can do in uh in the practice let them say things loudly what do you feel what do you think so then then they be aware of what they are doing interesting kisik you have anything to add your challenges what challenges do you put in front of your archers in training to mimic competition i think that's more coming from archer's honesty how actually everyone says i want to win olympic gold medal every wednesday i want to go to olympia everyone to say i want to go to world championship is that really your goal then you have to honest honest honest what you need required in training so it's like you know we're not trying again we're not trained anymore you know we train human the human that means they must find a fine goal clearable and being honest by themselves then training is going to be more smoother and also you know feel they will be hot because if they have a clear goal and what they want to be and then they will they will...
training more what about you do you throw in a few surprises in training yes exactly you know so we are doing a lot of challenging in training also we are doing some run shoot and core combinations i mean i choose this issue is around three minutes but it's not it's like a job they have some specific heart rate has to reach in three minutes and after as soon as they reach that heart rate they have t-shirts six arrows in 90 seconds sometimes we just try to increase heart rate and try to decrease the shooting time try to make really big pressure on the archers during the training and in the same time also we are checking the scores we are doing some scoring rounds like that and also sometimes we are playing card games but every card has some specific match scores i mean brad ellison

shot

final in berlin world cup final then someone choose that card and he has to beat that scores in five fans he we just make them compete with that archers and we are in that kind of challenging also we have another challenge about the sun and heat a little bit different than the netherlands but we have 45 degrees normally in

summer

time it is also exactly a big challenge for the archers and do you see goku do you see the changes in in this point that we're talking about in this workshop when the athletes are under pressure in training yeah of course it is uh because in computation main problem is archers start to hear their heart beatings normally they are in comfortable zone and they...
are shooting like average hundred ten hundred less than hundred or most of them but if we have some young archers their heart rate average is under ten during the training but in the competition it rise up under twenty hundred thirties if they actually have some personality it's get it goes around 140s or something and when the archer gets some full drop when they try it when they start to hear their heartbeats in their ears it makes really big pressure on them and they in that time they always try to shoot really fast because they are starting afraid they have something different in their mind in their body and they try to finish this

shot

as soon as possible and also this makes sometimes bring back the ball and draw in again bring back the ball drawing again and i try to make it useful for these archers for our archers they always get used to hear their heartbeats in their ears and they always try to use to shaking during the

shot

because when you have 170 175 heart rates it's not easy to get full draw expansion and aiming in same time and also when you combine it with some core training when you have some pain on their core muscles it gets really difficult to shoot and we are doing this kind of challenging in the training too richard finally you what happens in the gb camp in training how do you as your athletes um many different ways it depends on which phase we are with our training so you know the a lot of our training here is trying to get the arches to be...
beaufit that that's a different kind of scenario but as we're taping down towards competitions yeah we will introduce a lot of simulations we will try to make the training more like a competitions and then we'll try and flip it around so competition is more like the training they don't quite meet in the middle but we have to um to get the artist to think in a slightly different way i always worry when archers just go through the motions of just shooting arrows in training and they go on automatic and they're not actually they might get okay scores but they're not actually improving i need them to put a lot more thought into what they're doing they have to put some pressure on themselves and their own pride in the performance to um to get better i know when we have um some great joint training camps in turkey um and the cocktails kills our archers because he reduces the time limits all the time his archers are really good at that hours do struggle till they get up to speed it's probably the one of the biggest things we can do to actually put some pressure on the arches is to you know cut a minute off the time at least or two and a half minutes off the time then of course they're out of the comfort zone um on the field under pressure interesting stuff right well i've got two very quick fire questions i i want a very quick answer from each of you on these last two questions uh the first one is about biggest enemy to this critical part of...
the

shot

the getting to that full draw and the release and and follow through uh juan carlos let's start with you big biggest enemy short answer for me trying too hard when you try too hard you try a perfect

shot

normally you go out of the normal sequence you don't need a perfect

shot

to make a 10 you make a good

shot

and many good

shot

s make many turns and very often we try to hard archers try too hard now is the day i have to do it now i have to make a 10 and they try too hard and it's not happening so i used to say make it hard and training let it happen in competition competition another day in the office with a bit more adrenaline kasich this for me what i see the most the important things for our training field is uh timing so timing means how much is not the whole sequence from the setup to the all the way to the you shooting the timing in actually talking about only the how much time consumed per click which is aiming time so i would say i just as they try too hard they try to too much aim which is cause the timing longer then you lose everything not only the your strength or endurance but also your mental focus as well so this reason why less aiming is the key for training for the high level vouchers excellent jacqueline what would you what's your answer to that question the timing and keep it simple keep it simple the the movements you make keep it simple and timing for me also aiming when the archer tried to get really good aim he kicked the stop...
his left arm stopped

push

ing and everything goes wrong after that he they lost their balance and aiming archer doesn't need to aim you just need to follow okay another main process in our shooting form aiming is just that just penis to be on the middle that's it what would you add to that yes i see two big enemies really of course over aiming that that's the biggest one and then the other one that i see so much is when an archer starts to try so by trying they they add conscious brain muscular tension into the

shot

and of course straight away it blocks that nice expansion extending to get through the clicker okay so my last question to all of you and richard i'm going to start with you on this one uh there's no bows there's no arrows there's an archer right in front of you coach what's the best thing i can do what's the best exercise you can do without a bow and an arrow to improve this particular part of my shooting my favorite piece of kit is just to use a simple piece of rope or a string which has a fixed length to it which you'll carefully fit to just slightly shows of their normal draw length and then the archer will get inside of that at full draw and then they start to feel the power of the

shot

across the shoulders they get the balance they feel the line and you you're adding you're trying to move the as if you're trying to move the arrow through the clicker it doesn't move of course but you have great feelings...
within the body you really start to feel the balance cocktail archer can lay down to round and they can put his

push

ing arm to floor then try to make proper alignment because as soon as they get proper alignment they will not be able to stand and when they align their shoulder they will be they will understand what is the real pedro position what is the real shoulder alignment so where are you putting your front hand there the

push

ing arm has to be on the floor no yeah like a

push

-up position but not exactly

push

-up position just turn like this you're

push

ing arm on the floor then just bring your drawing arm to chin then try to find proper alignment about your shoulder kasich so i think it's couple of uh device people can carry without equipment that is stretch band as we just say but also i highly recommend have like kind of a strap you know if this is not extending but when you adjust your your full draw holding positions with that kind of a strap you can build up the good alignment as well as good feeling maintaining good feeling and not only that you can do more isometric training as well so you know just maintaining feeling and your mental game even you don't have any ball i think that's very important and jacqueline what are your thoughts on what you would recommend side plaque that the cocktook set your your hands on the floor and then your alignments take with your elbow and also you have the stabilization on your body that's a very good one and...
you you have to uh have your shoulders in the in the right position so you make use of your bone structure and not your muscles uh plus you had the first word i'm gonna give you the last one what would you add to your esteemed colleagues and the advice you would give i use all of those that they say which are very good because you you have something to hold but i will add one that is a kind of combination of mimic and imaginary so standing in position closing your eyes imagine you have all the ball and you make the sequence of taking the arrow put the milk imagine all this make the sequence move in find the full draw find one muscle make you expand get the feeling without

both

visualizing and making imaginary without any effort in fact is training the neurons the training the sequence the same as with the bow without the interference of the physical part so if we combine the one of my colleagues which are physical what the one of them the brain the one of following the sequence and you can do it with movement or without movement with movement is easier you feel it without movement you are just activating the mind it's it's very efficient unfortunately not many answers take the time to make 10 minutes of this kind of mental training but in fact we all talk about mental training but then archers don't do it too much so the self-talking of this is very good they can do it when training but imaginary and mimics to find the right position and if you want to add a...
camera and film yourself from the same position with bow without ball you will feel that position it has changed so you are able to reach the position the same one without the ball that the one we have with the bow that's a very good training without in fact shooting stuff um thank you to all of you fascinating topic which i i feel that we've only just uh tickled the tip of the iceberg on there's plenty more to

discuss

but really appreciate all your time and your wise words and thanks to all of you for watching