The Narcissism Doctor: THESE Toxic Patterns Are Signs You're Dealing With A Narcissist

Narcissistic people are attracted to people who will give them praise for their state of physical attractiveness, so simply being a good person and praising someone could be what makes you attractive to them, so that people can Think well, does that mean I have to stop being me? I would say no, they might be attracted to you and you might feel obligated for a minute, but the key is knowing how to get off the carousel before it starts going too fast before jumping into this episode. I would like to invite you to join this community to hear more opinions that will help you become happier, healthier and more healed.

All I want you to do is click the Subscribe button. I love your support, it's amazing to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to take this journey with you. Thank you very much for subscribing. It means a lot to me. The number one health and wellness podcast. J shett J shett, the only J shett. I want to start with Dr. Romany by clarifying the terms again. because I think we live in a time where there are so many terms on Tik Tok, YouTube and social media and they are often reflected in the way we talk to our family, friends, yeah, what's the difference between a

narcissist

ic and

narcissist

ic personality disorder?

Start there because this is already muddying the water a lot, so

narcissism

is a personality style. There are many different personality styles. Certainly,

narcissism

is a more maladaptive personality style because it puts people at odds with other people, it's not good for your relationship. but it is a personality style and in itself is not a disorder. There is something called narcissistic personality disorder, which is when a person exhibits these various narcissistic

patterns

that we have talked about: low and variable empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, envy, admiration and validation, seeking Of that whole long list, the self-centeredness, all the selfishness, all those things, so all of that is happening, it's chronic, it's omnipresent, it shows up in your lives and it's varied in a lot of different relationships, the difference is that actually They go to a therapist's office who is licensed and trained to make a diagnosis and that therapist determines that yes, I am seeing these

patterns

, they are consistent, they are found in all situations, and they can assign that diagnosis to the vast majority of people they see.

They have this personality style. I'm never going to be in a

doctor

's office who is going to make that determination, and it gets complicated because calling something a disorder raises a lot of issues personally. Jay, if I ruled the world, I think we would get rid of this diagnosis. I don't think we get anything out of this. I don't even think it helps customers. Many

doctor

s do not issue it because it feels stigmatizing. There are a lot of reasons why I think it shouldn't be like that, but it is. Right now, this is what you need to remember when we look at narcissism in the world.

There are people who are narcissistic; they can be mildly narcissistic and a bit more emotionally immature and just selfish and shallow to the end. to severe where it can be evil and it can be coercive and manipulative and all that and there are all the things in between, this book really focuses on the right middle so most people are not

dealing

with someone who is coercive and many are. and that's a much more serious problem that's probably beyond the scope of the book, but most people who are

dealing

with mild narcissism are frustrated and upset, but they're not devastated and hurt like we see in that kind of mid-level. . of narcissism, so the difference is literally that kind of mechanical point, they weren't seen by anyone and I don't know if listen, I'll be honest with you if I met someone at a dinner and they started telling me their life, I might even think about my head, I have a clinical hypothesis, what is happening in any universe that we occupy, would I ever tell that person, even if I talked to them for two hours?

I think you have generalized anxiety disorder. I think you have bipolar disorder. Also, I just wouldn't say it right, it's not the environment, it's not the situation. I might strongly suggest that you say, "hey, you should talk nice to someone," so what gets interesting is that the mistake that a lot of people make is number one, they assume that If a person has narcissistic personality disorder, their narcissism is more severe, there are not necessarily people with narcissistic personality disorder NPD whose narcissism is actually not as severe as that of people who were never diagnosed because they were never in that situation, so you see what I am saying is that there are people out there who are malignant narcissistic people, no one sees them, we can speculate, we could spit, we say yes, that's probably the case, but that person with NPD May just saw a doctor, the other piece, here though also. is that what you're doing is creating this kind of weird space where people are saying these are the patterns that I see in a parent or a partner, whoever it is, I think they might be a narcissist and the Internet, like it does, gets embarrassed quickly. of that.

Person you think you are, how could you think this about someone and this person has probably already felt really hurt, really devastated by this relationship, now they're being shamed for sharing? I think this might be what's happening, it's also creating this really painful space. So suffice it to say that I think in the public conversation about narcissism we should just call it narcissism. "Getting into Weeds in NPD really hits this kind of subtle clinical point and just creates it, it makes a lot of noise here, so "We can't have a clear conversation that these personality styles are harming people who are in these relationships." .

Yes, it makes a lot of sense. Why do you think it suddenly seems, at least culturally, that more people are interacting with them? Narcissists like you will talk to a friend and say, "Oh God, I'm so glad I ended a relationship with the narcissist or I'm struggling, I'm healing, since your book teaches you how to like me." I am recovering from this relationship I had. I think they were narcissistic, like why are we suddenly feeling this kind of consciousness in the culture? Has it always been there? Has what happened increased? It's always been there. I think as long as there have been people, they have been there and I always tell people to open a history book.

I would say that about 75% of the people they wrote about in that history book were probably pretty narcissistic. Narcissistic people make history and, in fact, honestly. They are often responsible for some of the greatest innovations we have ever known, that doesn't make them good people and I would say let them innovate, but don't date them, you know, that's what we're talking about. There's something out of the ordinary here for them, there's a fantasy they live in that they often feel compelled to create, so you better believe they've always been there. I don't know if we would have had the jumps and the balance.

In some ways we've had it without that right, so we said it's always been there, but we never had a name for it. Remember that psychology is a field in its infancy. Has it existed around 1507? 25 years, so it's evolving and that's why this concept of speaking. about someone's personality in this way maybe since the late 19th century we've even been having that conversation people have been doing narcissistic things to Partners' children and family members since time immemorial we just didn't have a name for it I think that on some level because until recently I think almost all cultures were probably much more authoritarian, patriarchally, patriarchally organized.

I think we're seeing bigger conversations about that, so I think there was almost a weird sort of universal radical acceptance that some people are really idiots and we just follow what they say and we didn't, we just didn't even think about it that way, but we see history books of Kings who were ogres and Invaders who were horrible and these were not good people, they were the narcissists of Now it's time for your other question, why are we talking about it as if 10 years ago a person did not I would have said my partner, my boy, you heard it, that's what I want to say, but they would have said first of all that we didn't have the platforms, but if they talked about how they are such idiots, why do they keep doing this to me?

I can't understand this, everyone has always had the conversations that we haven't, we are using different languages ​​now and if anything we now have a construction we and we Now we understand that this is tied together, the point of this book really was to say that there are people with these personalities, they are out there, the way they present themselves in relationships is pretty consistently the same and instead of blaming yourself. and wondering what you could do, it's not you, yes, it's really them and they are having their process and their journey and they probably won't get the help they need to defend it, but they will roll up their sleeves and turn your life into a human sacrifice to please, or conquer or prove something to a person that cannot be won.

I've seen people waste lives doing this, you know, and it's even particularly compelling if it's their parents, but even if it's a long-term intimate relationship with some, especially if they got into the relationship. young, so this has always been a thing, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense and I appreciate how our vocabulary evolves over time and as that expands and spreads, it allows us to better label and understand things, and I know this book is mainly about the relationship, a narcissistic relationship and then the healing journey, but before we dive into that, I wanted to ask you a question: how do you stop attracting a narcissist?

Is there a way not to attract a narcissist? Dr. I wish I could say yes and here it is. where I really want to give my support to everyone who is listening who has attracted a narcissist, you know why you attracted a narcissist because you are attractive and what I mean by attractive is that you can be physically beautiful, it can be your physical, it can be you are something you know it may be your social status it may be that you can do something for them what is attractive to them may not be attractive to the rest of us you are attractive to them because you are attractive because you may have power of some kind in the world When I say power I don't mean that you are a leader, I mean that you are master of yourself.

Many of us who get into these relationships have the mistaken assumption that people who get into these relationships are shrinking. Violets who have low self-esteem at all. I have to tell you that some of the people I have seen get into these relationships. I think, "woo, I should have your self-esteem." "They are there, they are strong and." They know who they are and they say this dismantled me brick by brick? I was very well armed when I met this person, so this is not a person who has no self-esteem, he may be, but he is definitely not an outright narcissist.

People are attracted to the people who will give to them. Supplying what is supplying for each narcissistic person may be a little different, but generally it is praise for the state of physical attractiveness, so simply being a good person and praising someone might be what really makes you attractive to them so they people can think well, does that mean I have to stop being me? I would say no, they may be attracted to you and you may feel obligated for a minute, but the key is then knowing how to get off the merry-go-round. before it starts going too fast good answer good answer I think it makes a lot of sense and again it's not you it's not you it's back to what I like guide me through consistency you talk about narcissism being consistent walking through the consistent pattern of a narcissistic relationship so anyone listening can do that because I think like you're saying a lot of us are sometimes afraid to admit that we might even be with a narcissist because it's scary to accept that and admit that and we realize that because we think it has something to do with us, we think we've wasted time, there may be a sunk cost bias, I thought I had a future with this person so explain to me the pattern of a narcissistic relationship, let's just talk. briefly helps us understand the pattern that traits have things like I talked about entitlement lack of empathy grandiosity arrogance selfishness I want you to think of a narcissistic person as a volcano and that volcano has this bubbling lava and the lava for the narcissistic person It's shame and insecurity, that's why they want to be able to cover the top of that volcano and that plug is all this, the right, the grandiosity, I'm perfect, I'm great, it's this, so put all those things away. under WS that's not a conscious process, but every now and then in life something is going to push that lid to the side, which could be feedback, criticism, someone ending a relationship with them, whatever it is, something that their day doesn't go like them. they want to get stuck in traffic and are late for something they don't get the table they want at a restaurant whatever it isHe pushes the lid of the well and the lava begins to pour out and that lava is his rage and his anger because his shame has been shown, all of this is unconscious, so all these patterns in the relationship, the way they appear in the person narcissistic is manipulation, invalidation of the other person, minimization of what another person is going through, uh, rage and reactivity, uh, future.

Pretending means promises are made and broken just to keep a person on the hook. There will be a blame shift. They will not take responsibility. They will always blame the other person. That's why people in these relationships always tend to blame themselves. There is a lot of cheating, betrayal, lies, infidelity, there is negligence over time, they just give less and less to the relationship and the person in the relationship is trying to make do with the smallest details to get noticed, that's how they appear in the relationship, everything. the relationship is about them getting supply and validation, they have no interest in the needs, wants and honestly the subjective reality of the other person in the relationship, over time the other person is almost considered an inconvenience, If you want something, you are an inconvenience.

Like this cup, the cup is convenient when I want to drink from it, but suddenly the cup said, "Hey, can you take me to CVS on the way home?", "What a cup, you are a cup," don't tell me that so they can see us. In that kind of objectified lens, all of these dynamics mean that, over time, for the relationship to work, the other person has to completely sacrifice themselves and accept the narcissistic person's reality system, but that doesn't happen a lot of the time. night to morning. At least in an adult narcissistic relationship, whether it's an intimate relationship or a friendship, that early phase is very idealized and seductive, it's called love bombing, but it's actually this phase where they are winning, not just with gestures and tactics. , but with harmony and attention.

Apparently, attunement and attention, they pay intense attention to you, but then you realize that part of that intense attention was them learning things about you that were going to be reversed and used against you in the future, which is often a point of devastation for a person. Who says I was vulnerable with this person? I told them things that I had never told anyone before and then six months later they shamed me and humiliated me and, you know, they were using me to destabilize me, there is a point where that love bombing phase then starts to head to a place where there are 10 good things, one bad thing, oh, one bad thing, everyone has a bad day, nine bad things, nine good things, one bad thing over time, although that ratio practically becomes one to one , So, now. you're having so many difficult and challenging things and then these little good things happen that are the source of the trauma bond that comes and goes good bad hot cold I'm here I'm not here is where people often find themselves falling into a cycle of justifying themselves by blaming themselves. themselves because it was cool, it was cool for two or three months, so how did it not become cool?

Maybe I'm doing something to literally make the person almost like you know when you open a bag, you know? you're trying to find something in a bag and you take everything out of the bag chaotically and it's all at the airport on the ground and it was that little one like your headphones, that's what people in narcissistic relationships do, they open the bag. themselves and they take everything out trying to figure out what's wrong with me why did it happen as a baby where can I take you to dinner? I'll take you anywhere to what please stop interrupting me and you're thinking about what just happened and basically once the narcissistic person almost feels confident that they have your supply, whether it's a promise, maybe you live with she, maybe you really committed yourself to a long-term relationship, you said I love you or whatever they took You to where they want you, then there are almost narcissistic people who also seek novelty a lot, they get bored easily, so when You're around occasionally they like you, but other times they don't.

They like the idea that someone is a constant source of supply and then over time there can be a real process of discarding, they may just feel like they no longer care at all, basically what they do is they no longer fulfill the roles. and responsibilities of what it means to be in a close relationship which is empathy compassion kindness attunement self-awareness these are the responsibilities that we have in a human relationship and they do not fulfill them I even hate to put them as responsibilities I think they come automatically for a healthy person and then, if you decide leave or even if they decide to leave you start to potentially get into a game of cat and mouse aspiration where they'll drag you back to see how you're doing, sometimes they'll even notice, oh they're happy now let me Go see if I can think about that a bit.

Whoa, whoa, I mean, those patterns sound so painful and they discovered that they sound so exhausting and stressful, and you know, heartbreaking for many. ways of why what are the excuses that people keep telling themselves and what justifications prevent us from healing. I mean, it goes even more fundamentally into that, why do we justify just when you think about one of the most primary human needs? It's attachment, we need other people. We are not meant to act alone Human beings are tribal We evolved in social groups Our brains haven't changed much We still need our people We need love We need connection and people say what about the narcissist?

I said they need more than anyone they want the entire supply so we need to be together but especially in a child that need for attachment is everything and if a child has a parent who is not in tune or even an abusive parent, the child does not have the option to say, I think I'm going to separate from them and see what I'm going to do with the parents and see if I can find someone new, right, it doesn't work like that, the child has to hold this parent in esteem, which means Then the child needs to devalue himself.

What am I doing wrong? How could it be more? And the child really learns how to be everything his parents want and need at the expense of his own needs. This is our backstory, everything exactly, so now just skip that to adulthood, so the child comes up with all kinds of fantasies, but in adulthood it can be things like everyone having a bad day. Relationships are difficult. I'm not easy at all. They have been working very hard. We had a good weekend. They told me: I love you. I mean, I could go on for the next two hours with all the justifications that I've heard right, so justifications not only proliferate, but they come easily and Jay, they're reinforced by the world.

The world will say, Oh, relationships are hard, maybe they're just having a bad day, so now what you're saying is completely in line with what the prevailing wisdom would be and you do it enough every time really crippling things happen. and destabilizing that This happens to the core of their identity, the people who tend to stay more stuck in these relationships, frankly, are the most empathetic people, while narcissistic people are attracted to people who are what they find attractive, The people who get stuck are the people who are most vulnerable to trauma bonding and who have more empathy and, as a result, are more likely to come up with those correct excuses and justifications, they will be more open to the idea that there are always different ways to have another point of view. what empathic people do and that's how it happens, but in a traumatic relationship and it's also about cognitive dissonance, right, we don't like that, we don't like the tension of inconsistency within ourselves, so we're always trying to make it fit and how do we relieve that tension and make it fit?

We justify it, then we can maintain the status quo and human beings are also homeostatic creatures. We like statistics. I want to continue living here. I want to continue having this routine. I don't want to find. a new place to put my toothbrush I don't want to wake up in a new place, even if you want me to, eventually many survivors will say that I don't even care if I wake up, you know, in a random place. as long as I don't wake up here, but how many terrible things had to happen to the person in that period of time, so a person is slowly distancing themselves from their true nature the longer they are in a narcissistic relationship. the more literally they have to abandon themselves, that's what I wanted to touch on.

Really, where you got to is knowing what the impact of narcissistic abuse is, like because I think we often also think like, oh yeah, well, you should know that you know. was it a waste of time or well look what look what he did to you you should be aware like you know it's almost like we assume that logically it should make sense to someone who should be happy to now be away from this person, but often with people who have been with narcissistic people, especially empathic people, they still say well I hope they're okay, I hope that person is okay, like I know they're struggling, what's the impact of someone experiencing narcissistic abuse? on a deep scientific psychological level, like what's really happening to them, so what we're seeing pretty consistently and now I can say now thousands of people that we've observed that have experienced these relationships is that we're constantly seeing a problematic level. of rumination regret anxiety sadness self-blame self-doubt a sense of hypervigilance a social anxiety that comes from that and I want to put a pin in that hypervigilance piece because I want to come back to that in a moment, kind of an interesting Mild dissociation in which a person has dissociated from their needs, their desires, and their true nature because that has been so consistently invalidated in this relationship.

You see problems with sleep. See the neurovative things we see in depression, like changes in appetite. problems with concentration, the interesting thing about survivors of narcissistic abuse is that some of them may develop clinical depression, but most do not, and what I will see is that these are people when they are surrounded by healthy supports, therapists, friends, they are encouraged. You are Lely, they don't seem like a person who is under the heavy weight of depression, so when the relationship is present, it takes its toll and that is why so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are able to recover and be.

Fantastic parents despite what's going on, you see what I'm saying, because it's not a problem, it's not a mental illness, it's a normative reaction to this, but even with that hypervigilance there's a lot of talk about how kind we survivors are. of the narcissistic abuse we have done recently. on Instagram live about this and it was just me complaining about something I had heard that day. I was very surprised by the strength that it had in our community because we talk about empathy, empathy, empathy and survivors, but one thing that really Seeing that right now I have so many clients again and other people telling their stories, empathy almost works as a kind of trauma response, like let me be as kind as possible, let me be as good as possible.

POS and that's why it becomes very confusing for you, am I an empath? I'm trying to survive and my empathy is literally like this? I'm going to be what this harmful person needs me to be in order to win them over and I'll be fine, and after that, even though it's embarrassing, why was I so nice to this person? They were terrible to me, what's wrong? with me and something I really try to focus on with survivors is saying this empathetic, receptive, compassionate part of you is beautiful, we have to heal you and not lose, that makes sense, so this is not an amputation, this is a lot.

About, we have to keep this here to take away the embarrassment but allow you to be more discerning. Wow, and that's the trick in doing this work with clients and for an individual who is healing themselves. Yeah, wow, I mean that analogy you just gave. It's not an amputation, that's really interesting because I think we would think that when something is so

toxic

and abusive you just want to cut it off, get rid of it, push it away, but that's not what you're saying, no, and in fact, you know. This is one of the things that really bothers me and I'm frustrated with Tik Tock and places where people give quick tips.

It's almost like if you have empathy for the narcissistic person, you're dumb and they're not dumb at all. Fashion, there's something not quite right there and they're not even close to addressing it. My goal for people is that they want to have empathy for them and, Ian, if they don't, I understand that too because of what they've been. but if that empathy for you is something you want to maintain, yes, I still need you to disconnect, can you disconnect from someone and still empathize with them? I absolutely think yes, wow, yes, and that's a difficult balance for the people in your life. that I love you to see that because it can be really very challenging to see someone you love empathize with someone who hurt them a lot, right and it's also even for yourself and this is where complicated emotions like pity and guilt can arise, right and I try. andagain, the healing work is that the pity is that these mechanisms within you that attend, tune in and care for other human beings are still functioning and we want them to always stay online, but you make sure to stay away from them. a harmful situation the world needs you we need your wholeness not the version you had to create to stay in this

toxic

relationship and that The balancing act of retaining empathy when someone has hurt you so much is one of the most difficult healing jobs.

I see people doing it every day and it's really beautiful, but many of them think that I have become a bad person because I am very angry at this person and in fact, an important point that is mentioned in the book and What I'm going to jump ahead of is that I actually don't know if forgiveness always has a place in these relationships and this is a complicated conversation a lot of people say forgiveness is okay and I say slow, no, no, stop, press, no. It is not at all and there is a whole body of scientific research that suggests that repeatedly forgiving a repeat perpetrator actually harms the forgiver, there is no gain in that and how it reduces your well-being can result in negative mood symptoms.

I mean, of course, you keep doing this because I think forgiveness is a very personal decision, but it's also not necessary. heal and I think the message that a lot of people get is, well, if you don't forgive them, you'll never heal, hell, you won't and I'm going to be very frank with You, Jay, there are some narcissistic people that hurt me immensely. I don't forgive them and I heal very well. It can be very difficult for that individual to ascend or descend again to any of those, like I know someone who's been through something recently and they're dealing with it with empathy and I know their friends and family are like how can you be empathetic? to this person and that's why they're approaching it that way or you would have the opposite in your case, where you say: I don't really want to be empathetic with them.

I don't want to forgive them or your family. It's saying, well, you should be, but I do. Here it is where it gets interesting. I empathize with them, yes, don't forgive them, okay? So you encourage maintaining those two states simultaneously and I think that again is one of the great exercises of the book. I think that might be one of the most important ones, it's something I've been doing with clients for a long time, which is the multiple truths exercise because it's very easy to say write down all the terrible things and I tell people to record all the terrible things. terrible things. things, but I said: let's be, I want you to write everything you feel for this person and a person could write this is my mother, I hate her, she had a difficult history, she was terrible with us, the children, she lives alone, I'm sorry for she.

I wish she would change. I know she won't change. This is literally the stream of Consciousness for a Survivor. Look at that and right there it shows why the survivors are so confused, but I absolutely believe it and not everyone believes it. Some people say I have no empathy for this person but I think it is very possible and this is where everyone says no that is not possible, if you empathize with her you would forgive her. I say I understand why they are the way they are. I even understand why they did it. what they did what they did was unforgivable and that's how I do it, I wish them no ill will, in fact if good things happen to them, so be it, if bad things happen to them, so be it, so there is a slight indifference towards it , but I wouldn't do it. be a loss.

I mean, I don't think there are that many forms of empathy and empathy is a complicated conversation, but I don't think that not forgiving is a lack of empathy because forgiveness really reflects the harm that has been done to us and people say no, no, It's a gift for you too M, yes, and I won't give them this gift because I know they would do it again if I let this person in, they would do it again. I love that distinction between empathy and forgiveness. It's really important to understand another word, an entire chapter is dedicated to radical acceptance.

Define it so we can understand how it's used because, again, even looking at the difference between empathy and forgiveness, it's very interesting to me how subtle and specific healing looks. Unlike this almost abstract journey that is often described about healing, it's like you move from this stage to here where you know, yeah, so the radical acceptance is that I have to say there's one, probably two, essential ingredients to heal you. You're going to go through radical acceptance, you're going to go through pain and then it's like people are going to take different paths, but radical acceptance is the absolute acceptance that these patterns are not this person's behavior is not going to change. at least not significant enough to turn this into a healthy relationship, that this Behavior affected you and as long as you are within the range of this Behavior, as long as it continues to do this to you, it will continue to hurt you because some people have told me that I say that I radically accepted not They are going to change, how come when they tell me these things it still bothers me?

I think because it's hurting you it's still painful just because you understand why it comes out of them you didn't just become a piece of concrete like you still have a soul and a heart and a psyche that can be hurt so I think some People thought that radical acceptance was like a magic pill that if I take this, the narcissistic person will never bother me again, so all that, but the key element is that this is not going to change and all the decisions from that moment should be taken on that basis. By definition, narcissism is, as I said, a maladaptive personality style, but it is also a rigid personality style.

The less healthy the personality is, the less flexible it is. Very healthy people have extraordinarily flexible personalities, so the core of mental health is flexibility. It's almost like physical health. A person who is physically healthy has a lot of flexibility in their muscles and joints. A healthy person has a lot of flexibility in their psyche. How do we define flexibility in our psyche? I would say it is adaptability, it is self-awareness and awareness of others, it is the ability to participate in solving novel problems and not get stuck in a singular solution is the ability to be able to self-regulate and self-soothe.

Those are some of the things I would include in that type of flexibility. I'm not just saying that it's safe for me to go wherever you want. I'm not saying it's that I'm ready for anything, but when there's disappointment, there's ability to cope, there's a lot to deal with, a lot of resilience is in that flexibility piece, which is the core of the health that I've worked on. with the people who have survived severe trauma it's me, but the ones who are really in a different situation is that flexibility, and you think about it, if a tree is flexible, it will bend in the wind, if not, it will break if the wind is too strong, that would really be the best kind of analogy, so narcissism is this kind of rigid, maladaptive style.

There is very little capacity for self-reflection for the narcissistic person. Very little self-awareness for the narcissistic person and very little awareness of reality. The people around them have little motivation to change. Most grandiose narcissists objectively consider themselves great people. If you ask them, they'll say I'm a great guy. I will help anyone. I'll do anything for anyone. I'm just a cool person, they think that after cheating on their girlfriend two nights before they're able to maintain what almost feels like a delusional self-schema, those things can't be changed and, again, the good thing about being an old lady, right? it's you?

I've been doing this for so long that I've seen cases for 15 or 20 years and when I tell you they've learned some interesting things, in some cases they had co-occurring conditions, addiction is a big help. For example, addiction is handled as if they have been sober for many years, but that core personality is definitely not suited for an intimate relationship, at least not one where someone won't get hurt, so that radical acceptance of everything in that moment is the moment of the penny dropping because now people see the path forward very differently this is no longer once the kids grow up it will get easier this is no longer when he gets the promotion things are going to get better this It's no longer when the grandchildren see, my parents are going to calm down, this is it, this is it, and I have sat down with many clients and I have told them, I'm going to give you something and I'm going to tell you, if I told you, this is , this is.

I'm never going to change how that would affect the decisions you make, most clients will say, can I tell you next week? because there's a lot to take in, but the challenge with radical acceptance, Jay, is that I wish I could say it's h and the light comes in. the window, you know a couple of things, it's that radical acceptance doesn't mean you're approving of this, it doesn't mean you're giving in, it doesn't mean you're okay with it, it's not like it's you seeing it absolutely and painfully clear you know what's up. after you see something painfully and radically the pain comes to you like a tsunami because this is your mom the mom you always thought that one day we were going to have the moment or your dad where it's like one day they caught me or my partial partner .

We will grow old together and everything will be fine. You are giving up a narrative. You are giving up hope. Giving up a life story, you are giving up things that you held on to since you were a child, that is Devastation and I tell people now that we are going to hold on tight because pain is the most human experience that exists, it is something different to the life. Apart from being born and dying, I know of no other universal human experience other than grief. All human beings lose, right? We lose something or someone, and we all have a very similar experience internally, we grieve and that is why we have rituals. but ultimately we go through a period of grieving and I think in this Modern Age we think we're better than grieving, we think we can Soldier, oh I can make my grieving like this, no one can make their grieving faster, right?, grief.

It's pain and that pain actually leads people Jay to say "okay, this feels terrible" maybe I should get back into the relationship maybe I made a mistake maybe I'm not seeing this clearly maybe I'm the problem maybe Maybe I am the narcissist and then, hold on through the grief, understand what is happening inside you, that the loss is not just that I no longer talk to my partner, that I am estranged from my mother or that I am getting divorced, but that Grief is how much of Yourself you lost in this relationship when people have to immerse themselves in it, some say I'm kinda glad they're gone but oh what just happened to me?

Yes, yes, it's the pain of the life you once thought you were going to have. Have you thought that you might have the pain of losing the person you lost while you were dissolving in this relationship? And I've seen that of the people that I know, not people, I would say they're people that I know in my life, but I've seen that dissolution of one's identity like they're completely clueless, even if they've disconnected. I don't know who I am anymore and I don't know what to do and I don't know if I had confidence. or if he was happy or if he was an extrovert or an introvert like I just don't know, yeah, and what's the first step when you feel, I don't know what, where, where, where the starting point is.

I tell people that we are. taking you back to the basics and it's little things like I'll say it three times a day set a little timer if you want I want right when that little notification pops up I want you to stop and say how I'm feeling right now, right? I'm cold I'm hot I'm hungry I'm thirsty like physiological functions find out where you want your thermostat and move it and see how oh I feel 60 68 this is nice people don't even know I'll say what to do you want on your pizza you'd be surprised how many people are baffled by that question, they say well, he always wanted what do you want on your pizza and they will say and realize that this is not nonsense.

This is how even these types of low questions become a place where a person can now recreate a subjective approach. that they were told for years you can't be hungry, you just ate, you can't be cold, I'm warm. you're not tired, you slept a lot, that's what they were told, so when that happens to you not just once, but hundreds, if not thousands, just that initial process and part of what I write about in the book is you keep reorienting yourself. to yourself and you ask yourself several times a day like what do I really feel a little cold and that's okay, even if everyone else has a swimsuit on, okay, wow, it's just bringing that person from return to his body, to his body. because that is our most tangible physical way of knowing how we feel and because we have gotten so far away from understanding how we feel, that will be the easiest way, same with what you want on your pizza, it sounds silly, but it's not, Alright. let's make these basic decisions right, let's make these really amateur decisions right instead of thinking who am I, what is the goal of my life, but you work towards that and when you ask people who I am, I don't know. tell me what you stand for tell me something that is important to you and themThey will really say no.

She had never thought on these levels. I mean your approach to so many. The meaning and purpose of people to me is when we are entering the last stages of really this, you know, this individuation and this autonomy of what is meaningful to you, what has a purpose. I remember a client once told me that we were talking about meaning. on purpose and she said are you kidding me? What is meaningful and purposeful? She said I just want to get to a day where I don't think about them and I said great, so that's where it is now and eventually we'll go. build on that, but that may seem very out of reach for people, in fact, in my healing program this month, it will be a month of meaning and purpose, and even I, as I build that curriculum, I realize that I love him very much.

From the usual conversation about meaning and purpose, I almost have to have the talking point, you know, point two, of what it means when you're going through this and someone who is a survivor of narcissistic abuse, but there's also the willingness to I trusted others I'm going to give you a silly example of something that happened today I had a very problematic call today with someone and I had to put the call on speaker because someone was helping me with something at home and I had to I know that She was doing her job quietly, but it wasn't a confidential call, it was a business matter and the call was terrible.

The person was very disrespectful, very dismissive and I have been through narcissistic abuse in many ways and forms. In my life, my first tendency was: am I being too sensitive? Am I being too demanding? Am I being ridiculous? That's what I was thinking and at one point the lady who was helping me looked at me and rolled her eyes. my eyes and she looked at me and said yes and I hung up the phone and the person who was helping with something else she had nothing to do with this call and I closed my eyes and the person said the person in the room with I said yes, that was absolutely ridiculous and I looked at her and said give more and she said I can't believe how dismissive that person was, she didn't even do the basics and Jay, I felt complete because my internal experience I still doubt after all these years and I've been through a long road, but my internal experience is that this person outside of me who I know cares about me said it wasn't right how I was talking to you and every time that happens we have a micro adjustment of That was the point.

I read that situation correctly and then I was encouraged to make a stronger decision and deciding not to do what this person was asking me to do was like talking and I said, no, I'm not doing it. I want to do that, but the presence of that other person, yes, having that safe space and this is a big part of healing, then it becomes building safe and validating gas lights, as I call them in your life, people who They see you and say that's what it was. It's not okay or you're okay or that was disrespectful, they didn't talk to you kindly, whatever it is, most survivors are so used to being talked down to that they're just like always, but having that is why the people go to therapy and Then I was able to make the much bolder leap of no, I'm actually going to end up going to the other meeting, but thank you, I don't know if I would have had that kind of courage, this is what healing is built on.

Those people, even if it's one or two people who give you permission to put it in, I call it the 9010 reversal, most of us put 90% of ourselves into our most toxic relationships and 10% into the reciprocal loving relationships that work. easily. Math, I want to dedicate 90% to those good relationships and call them the toxic ones, yes, that is very true and it is interesting because I think that type of answer answers the next question that I was going to ask, but I think this idea is when someone's going through that healing journey they're almost oscillating between good and I know myself again oh I don't know who I am anymore I feel like I know what I want on pizza oh my gosh I have no idea you know so I feel like they go through this, I think that's partly because you need these people in your life to remind you constantly and like you said, anti-gas lights you up, what else can someone do when they're oscillating between that ?

I think I'm making progress I'm not sure anymore I think I'm making progress I'm lost again How come what do you find in that period? You accept the oscillation correctly because it is its calibration. a child who wobbles on his feet when he's learning to walk, you're learning this again and that wobble is you, it's his internalized voice and your individualized self having a little argument and sort of seeing that individual, that part of you that is trying to individualize, like saying you have this and that is an old voice and that old one, we can say that you know that you are not really welcome here anymore, like you can just leave, thank you. you and the but is the individualized voice and the internalized the internalized narcissist or the gaslit internalized voice and they keep fighting and we feel like I'm not, like today anyone watching that call I mean, but he said this is not it was okay and the person was almost like the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes, right, this person was saying this Emperor is naked, go away, roma, go away, so I think initially we need those voices. much more and there will still be times where we will because I think there are certain trigger situations that stay pretty consistent for survivors for a long time, we keep that internally and we were also told to Jay that many survivors were told.

They are at the top if they want to achieve a goal, do you really think you are going to achieve it? I think you're reaching too high, so they were minimized and trivialized for wanting to do something they still listen to. inner voice of don't be ridiculous, you'll never be able to do that and they make that voice their own instead of trying to learn as if that kind of thing is an unwanted visitor, so let's see if you can treat it that way, and we can even think of That, if you look at trauma theory, we talk about the kind of protective persecutor model where the persecuting voice in a weird way is doing this really messed up way of keeping you safe because it's essentially telling you what you want. it's that persecuting voice it's that voice that tells you that you're going to fail so don't try and when you were in the narcissistic relationship and you failed they would humiliate you and shame you or tell you it was going to happen but if you can say that, it's okay, I see the point.

What are you trying to do by chasing Bo. I'll be okay if this doesn't go well because it will be on my terms and you've truly made a radical acceptance even when the narcissist person rolls their eyes and says, "Oh, big surprise, you have to keep coming back to this." This is their thing, this is not my thing, not saying it doesn't hurt, this is a carousel that really takes its toll on people, but it can be done. but that swing starts to get a little less swingy as more people have these validating voices, people build up what we call efficacy, the idea that they're capable of doing something well, so that the first time we can, we're able to do something successfully. from baking a cake or changing the oil in our car, to using a drill and putting something on the wall, what it does to the psyche is remarkable, so I tell survivors to keep trying new things because the more effectiveness you build, that helps Foster too. individuation, so I take the drill, if you make some holes in the wall but the image goes up, you will feel great with the image going up, try to do the hard part, you may burn some, but when it is done great.

I tried making this with bread. I haven't managed to lift a loaf of bread yet, so that's my latest neurotic wound, but I think when we find that some people learn and others do all kinds of interesting things, I see how some people I've worked with learned languages ​​and they learned to play a musical instrument, but they will say that this feels so good because in the past I would have been made fun of for this, those who can get away will say that it is very interesting to do this and that confidence starts to jump to other areas of your life.

Yeah, I mean, it's really a rehabilitation of proper self-identity, self-esteem, self-confidence, self-acceptance, you're almost teaching yourself to do things again to feel whole. Totally true, but you know what's interesting to see the use of reconstruction for many people, it's a construction because if this happened to them in childhood, their individualized identity was never formed at all. Wow, so this is a build, yes, it's a build, it's from scratch. Dr. Romy, this is very informative. I'm thinking about so many people right now that I know will benefit from our conversation today because it's almost like I feel like the more I talk to people, the more and I hear more about people with this in their lives, but I want to ask you one last question. and it is the idea of ​​returning to that point of empathy, that point of forgiveness for the person who is healing from the narcissistic person.

For them, can the narcissistic person? ever heal, so it's a listen. I believe in human potential. I'm probably never going to bet on the psychopathic or narcissistic horse in the race, but maybe they could at least be in the top five, and what I mean by that. part of this is an understanding of the origins of narcissism true, some narcissistic people their personality development was greatly shaped by adversity trauma neglect loss chaos attachment moons certain subgroup if they are willing to humbly participate in the work of growth they do excellent trauma informed It's worth working with a therapist and then going beyond trauma-informed work and being able to reflect on how they can create that schema of how they affect others.

It's okay to walk away, it's almost like you're walking away. Um, you're opening up Gates and you're saying there are people out there who see what you're doing, they're being affected, and it's really opening up the scheme of how they're desperately trying to protect themselves and how other people are becoming. hurt and I have is interesting. I work with a narcissistic client once for many many years and I kind of scaled back my practice and have had one or two of them. I go back like, oh, can I work with you? I'm like you know. I've really gone quiet, but you know what they said, although one in particular said, "I'm yelling at my girlfriend and I know it's not right now he still yells at her, not as well, but he knows it." he says, I know she is not well and she can leave me and I probably deserve it.

Me and he says you taught me that. Wow, he's still screaming about that part, but humility is a very important part of this entitlement and I honestly think it's the antidote. For narcissism it is humility and humility means that we are not perfect, we have flaws and we are and it is not all a fantasy and that we are and honestly, the hardest thing for a narcissistic person to accept is that they are common and ordinary. We are normal, I am normal, everyone in this room is normal and we are simultaneously special, but we are just people, so if that for them not being the most special person means removing camp from the volcano, which is terrifying for them.

If they're somehow almost terrified of their own anger, you need a very skilled therapist to guide someone through that journey you know and they have to keep showing up and about 60 to 70% of narcissistic people quit. I get out of therapy prematurely and it usually happens when the rubber hits the road and the work starts to get really vulnerable, that's when I lost clients and so we have to go very, very gently into that woods with them and unfortunately if we go too gently. and we never get there so we're doing a lot of naval looks so it's just about finding that kind of balance and you know they can do a lot of spiritual avoiding that kind of stuff like you, you can't just you.

You can't make an aphorism to overcome this, you are G, you will have to do this painful work facing that vulnerability. I've seen some narcissistic people make some progress, but the way I put it is this: There is hope to make some progress, but the damage they've usually done to another person usually isn't great, it's not really that repairable, and many people will say and the fear of many people in narcissistic relationships is what happens if they change for the next one. person, they are not going to change for the next person, what if everything changes overnight?

This isn't overnight, it's years and years and years and years of work committed to this, like I said, I've seen micro changes and probably not enough to have consistently affected other people's relationships and still their Personality is like a rubber band that we can pull out so that suddenly Romany the introvert can become Romney the extrovert just for one night and then when we get home, the rubber band. the narcissistic person will come back to you on a good day with a good therapist you can stretch a little seem a little more in tune conscious do some empathetic adjacent things but as soon as the first time stress enters the picture rubber bandit goes back to its original size yes, that's what I was going to ask you, since the last question that came up was what would you say to someone who says I'll wait for you to be moved and then you're waiting for a bus.

That's never going to come. You're basically waiting for a submarine to show up at a bus stop and in the process, it's not even possible for that to not come, you're going to get lost in the process and, for me, that kind of death of the soul, that kind of loss of self. It's just not right and listen, you and I know this culture. We both come from a culture where staying in a marriage no matter what the conditions are is very much kind of a symptom of the culture and this is where I. I've probably seen it most clearly in people that really some people would find a way, whether through their spirituality or other relationships with their children or other people in their community, to create meaningful space outside of that problematic relationship, but for others It was like looking. a fruit dies on the vine and for me one of the most horrible things to witness is the potential of a human being lost to this type of invalidation and I shudder to think how much potential, creative potential, um knowledge, wisdom, people have. withheld because it invalidated this book is a love story for every Survivor and to tell them please bring, we need you, we need all your gifts in this world because you have so many listen, the fact that you have endured this relationship is already a gift. but all the things that you kept behind the door open those doors so we can see all these beautiful things that you could bring into the world Dr.

Romany, thank you very much, the book is called, it's not you, identifying and healing from narcissistic people, it's available, right? Now go grab your copy today, we've just touched the tip of the iceberg of the ideas and knowledge found in this book. Please grab your copy and if you don't already follow Dr. Rony on Instagram and YouTube, be sure to do so. and subscribe and follow us and I want to see what resonates with you in this conversation, so tag us both. I'd love to see if any of this has affected you if you know a friend or family member who benefits from the book.

I would love to see your conclusions and Dr. Ramy, thank you very much again for this very thoughtful conversation, very insightful and I love your step by step approach and also the ability to define and clarify things so well for us, so I always feel better prepared to talk to people, even the ones who may mention it to me, friends, family, no matter what, and guide them in the right direction towards a therapist or the support they need, so thank you so much, thank you Jay, thank you, yeah , thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr.

Julie Smith about unblocking negative emotions and accepting difficult feelings. You just have to be motivated every day and if you're not, what are you doing? And, actually, humans. It doesn't work that way motivation you have to treat it like any other emotion some days it will be there other days it won't