WORLD LEADING THERAPIST Answers The Biggest Questions People Ask In Therapy | Lori Gottlieb

I think

people

treat dating like going shopping I want this I'm going to look for this You don't choose a partner a la carte How do I feel about this person? That's the most important question you can ask and whether you enjoy their company. you feel heard you feel understood everything else is just noise a psycho

therapist

a New York Times bestselling author Lori Lori God many times relational problems or childhood problems in disguise yes, I think you are right, many problems are so solvable that you can heal a lot of things to have a relationship more than you ever thought possible before jumping into this episode.

I would like to invite you to join this community to listen to more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier and healthier, everything I want. What you need to do is click on the Subscribe button. I love your support. It's amazing to see all your comments. We're just getting started. I can't wait to take this journey with you. Thank you very much for subscribing. It means a lot to you. I'm a best-selling author and host of the #1 Health & Wellness Podcast on Purpose with Jay Shetty. I've been talking to a friend and one of the

biggest

challenges she's going through is that men tend to want to be in a relationship with her even though she tends to want to be friends with them and is potentially open to them at some point in the future. future goes somewhere else, but he does not expose himself to say I want to have a relationship I want a day when she simply wants to develop. good connections, good friendships and what ends up happening is that she ends up in these scenarios where men sometimes feel guilty, ashamed, harassing her into believing that there is something more here and she denies it and she feels really uncomfortable because in the You really care about this. individual, she admires them, she appreciates them, but she just doesn't see them romantically and I think what's really difficult is the deeper point, which I think is more universal, that a lot of

people

can connect with, is that you care about someone. , but not that way.

You don't know how to keep your distance at the same time you don't want to be intimate with them, does that make sense? Yes, it absolutely does and I think the problem people have is that they feel that I don't. I want to hurt this person and at the same time they are not thinking about what matters to me in this friendship so it doesn't sound like a great friendship, if the other person tells you no you actually feel differently so you want to to talk about are you willing? Are you interested in being my friend because I'm not interested in anything else and part of being my friend is listening to what I have to say and believing me, otherwise I don't think we'll do it? have a friendship that is healthy, so if you want to be in my life, I would like to be in your life, if you want that, then I need you to believe me when I tell you that this is how I feel and don't try to pressure me into doing something . that's not comfortable for me and then that person can really think: I want this person in my life to know that this is their hard boundary, but people don't say it that way?, they feel like I'm going to hurt this person or They start to argue with the person if you find yourself arguing with someone about how you feel, that's not a great friendship and that's very difficult, right?

I feel like nowadays a lot of these conversations happen over text, yes, or over text in face-to-face conversations. They're happening in a way where you write someone's response so much when you find that this goes on and on and on and it can go on for days, sometimes weeks, how do you accept that it might be time? draw a line, maybe distance ourselves or disconnect and move forward even though it's painful or what's that moment where you can just say, I'm going to honor myself. I'm going to honor what I wanted from this friendship that no longer exists.

First of all, I think this texting thing is really important. I have so many clients who come to

therapy

and say you know we had this conversation and they tell me this conversation that went on and on and on. and I go on and I'm thinking how did this conversation continue if they were there for five hours what happened and it turns out they've been texting for days about it yeah and I said why didn't you have this conversation face to face and they say, well that would have been too hard, but look how hard it is to have it in a text message.

I think it's a lot harder to have it over text because when you're together, you're actually connecting, even if it's hard, even if I'm saying some things that might cause some awkwardness, it's actually easier to do it in person, so which is a bit paradoxical that people think I'm going to protect myself and someone else by doing this in the label text because you're not protecting anyone. It's easier to have a challenging conversation in person, it's much better. How have you encouraged people to take that leap to have difficult conversations in all relationships, not just in this in-person setting because that's exactly what you just said?

People feel anxious, they feel like they won. They don't know how to control their emotions, they feel like they might say something they don't mean or the other person might say something they're not ready to hear and I find more and more people, whether it's in the workplace or in their marriage. Whether it's a friendship struggle, having difficult conversations face to face, what are some of the practices, methods or tools that you've shared with people to help them do it well? First of all, I think people establish patterns in a relationship very early on. I always say relationships are like cement, so in the beginning there's a little flexibility for the other person to text you when you want to have a conversation, you can mold that by saying "hey, let's talk in person," but if you keep texting them text messages. then the cement dries and that becomes the pattern in the relay relationship with anything that many people put up with a lot in the beginning of a relationship because they think this person has all these other great qualities, and what if they really can't have a relationship? talk to me, you know, I have a lot of fun with them or I can fix them or eventually I'll bring this up later, but I don't want to bring it up now because we're early in the relationship, no, no. that's the time you have to mention it because the cement is drying and it dries quickly so patterns are set so if the cement is dry then they try to change it and say let's have a face to face conversation but you guys have state. texting about things for months instead of talking about them, it's very difficult to change that so I would say from the beginning establish what you want in a relationship and if the other person is not open to it, it's really a good information to have from the beginning. almost like well, now if you want to talk to me in person, the stakes must be high.

Yeah, it almost amplifies how important this moment is when it shouldn't be. It should be the norm if someone does it later. a relationship, how do you do it in a way that doesn't seem innovative? or is it that we need to talk, yeah, yeah, it's really pretty simple and I know it's hard to do right now, but to be able to make that change in the relationship and say you know what I know, we've been texting about this stuff. , but I think it will be much better for us and much easier to talk about this in person and then you'll see, will the other person show up?

Well, are they going to keep texting you or are they going to say, sure, let's meet up, let's talk about it? Yeah, I feel like a lot of people keep texting because what they're afraid of is, I'm afraid it's going to be harder again, like they're going to drop some big bomb and you say no. I just want us to be able to be in a room together and talk about anything, yeah, absolutely, okay, great, good. I hope buddy, if you're listening, I hope that

answers

your question, another one that kept coming up from our audience, there were a couple of people who felt that way and I want to spend some time, actually, we'll go back and forth. we'll go back and forth we'll go back to relationships one of the big ones that we obviously hear a lot about is social anxiety and a lot of the

questions

that came up and some of the stories that I dove into were people just struggling to be around in large groups People going to events or parties or even to their friends' houses where there are other people Struggling to start a conversation Feeling alone and disconnected even in a crowd Feeling uncomfortable being able to share what they are doing and feeling confident about what they are doing are doing, let's talk about where the root of that social anxiety is.

I know it can be a lot of different things, what the variety of things it can be and what have you seen some of the ways to help people understand. That anxiety is better than staying home, staying away, and maybe not being encouraged to go out and meet people, so I think whatever we're experiencing is relational and, therefore, many times relational problems or childhood problems disguised and even social anxiety. For example, if you have a story that you were told when you were younger like I'm not good enough or I don't measure up or you know that people are going to criticize me whatever your experience was, you're going to project that onto everyone. your relationships as an adult, so social anxiety is usually something about I won't be liked, I won't be loved and that has to do with how you were liked or loved when you were younger if you haven't processed it. and figuring that out so I think it's about rewriting your story before you say you know I'm not going to go to that event, what am I afraid of, when am I afraid that someone is going to think and is that true?

Do I have evidence from other parts of my life now as an adult that it's not true? I think, unfortunately, the stories people tell us about ourselves are about the Narrator, meaning he was the person you know in our past who had mental health issues or them. They had their own insecurities and they projected them onto their children, they were limited, they didn't know how to interact, they didn't know how to love and then they criticized their children or neglected their children or they couldn't hear them or see them or value them, they couldn't feel that emotion like, I love who is this? being human and I think that becomes internalized and then you grow up and think that everyone in the

world

thinks that about me and it's just not true. that other people think that, but the most important thing is that it's just not true that you are the story that you were told about yourself, so you need to say what the true story is and then you go into that environment with the true story and that doesn't mean that You having to go to a party with a hundred people means that maybe I open up a little more to a friend, maybe I try to go out with a group of three people and see what that's like and experiment and when you see that this story, this old story It doesn't seem to develop in these new situations, you become more confident when faced with bigger and bigger situations, yes, it's those small steps and I often surprise people when I tell them that in some cases I am much more. more introvert than extrovert and it's a little confusing for people because I'm usually in places where I can be my extra, but if I go to an event where I don't know anyone, I'll probably try it. and find one person that I can have a really deep and meaningful conversation with instead of working the room or trying to connect with a bunch of people because I feel so much happier and fulfilled if I can walk away from an event and say wow! , I met a person. and we have so much in common and we share so many values ​​and now I'm going to stay in touch with that person instead of the idea of ​​saying, "Well, my God, I feel the pressure that I need to talk to 20 people." here and I should be networking and I should be exchanging numbers and whatever, which is not how I like to operate and that's why I love the idea of ​​those small steps and starting small, yeah, yeah, and I also think that there's a difference between Being an introvert, I'm exactly like you in the sense that I really like having these deep conversations and I'd rather be with fewer people and have a deeper connection than be with more people and have a more superficial connection, but at the same time Sometimes I feel like it's one thing to say I'd rather have these kinds of smaller, more intimate conversations, but I'm not eager to get into them, so I think what you're talking about with social anxiety is that I'm eager to reveal who's truth.

I'm for anyone, I'm worried about showing up and being found wanting, yeah, and I think that's what a lot of people are struggling with, so I guess it helps to have a question that you want to ask people if it helps. I've found that for the people I work with when they're struggling because they say what we're talking about. I don't want to sit there and talk about the weather or I don't want to talk about the news or and it was like having a question to open up and ask to share with someone and having the confidence to share that question felt like something that has definitely helped me and helped others. the people that I know, where you also know that you're comfortable sharing that. part of your life, have you found other tools or methods that have helped people in those spaces?

ItWhat you're saying is very true and I think it's curiosity, I think when people feel anxious they feel like they have to tell a story that's entertaining. They have to keep the person bored with whatever they are talking about, people like to talk about themselves so if you are and I don't mean this in a narcissistic way, I mean people like it when you show interest in them and us. Don't many people ask other people enough about themselves? Yeah, so when you have the opportunity to find a person who's really curious, this isn't just some kind of strategy for your social anxiety, it's actually a way of relating. people, I'm really curious to meet you and you ask them

questions

about their life, they'll be really interested in interacting with you, yeah, and I think what's even more true about what you're saying is that everyone feels that. that way and therefore everyone feels like they're not interested in each other, yeah, and that's why I've been to events with people before and they've come to me and said, oh, that person was so cold or that person He seemed to have an ego and I was like, well, no, I know that person is just uncomfortable in these environments and it's weird how we all look at each other and make these judgments like, oh, they called them, they ignored me, yeah, but actually everyone I feel quite anxious rather than having this like Vendetta against you or something and obviously there could be something more as you get to know them better but it's worth giving someone the benefit of the doubt and getting ahead, Yes, me too.

I think another thing that puts people off is when you ask about external things like tell me what you do, tell me well about your job because then it feels like they're trying to network with me or they really want to reach out to me. know me, you know, you can ask something like where you grew up, yeah, something as simple as that and they say, oh, I grew up here, oh, really, wow, you know, that's very different from where I grew up or I grew up in a similar place and what? Do you know if you had brothers?

What was that? How did you end up here? Just understand his story absolutely yes. I think you're right. I think the work issue has faded away. I feel like that's how people used to talk and connect and you're absolutely right. I think now everyone always feels like what's the agenda here, but I get asked yeah when I'm at a birthday party, like how do you know the person whose birthday it is? How do you know? the person who is getting married like how are you connected to them? I found that it's a much healthier question and then like you were saying now, I love asking people where they're from because I'm from London and I've lived in New York.

I live here now and it's great for me to learn about the United States because there are here people from all over and places I've never heard of or never been to, it can be an education and all of a sudden it's You can see someone open up and it's easy for most people to mention where they grew up or where They started instead of asking about their job or whatever, because it always feels like there's a lot of pressure on whether I'm successful enough. Am I telling the right story or if you are successful I don't want to make them feel bad?

You know, so there's all these things underneath, um, while we're just connecting human to human with tell me about yourself, tell me about your story, yeah. Absolutely good, now I want to get back to relationships because it seems to be an important relationship and this is something that a couple of people who came to our audience have been struggling with and it was this idea of ​​being with someone or dating someone. but you don't like their work ethic or you think they are not focused enough, then these people say I work too hard. I'm very focused.

I started dating this person who I like many qualities. I have, but something that I obviously value is someone motivated, ambitious and entrepreneurial, but I don't really see that in them this relationship has the opportunity to last, does it have a future or will I always feel that way? This reminds me. from this saying you don't choose a partner à la carte you can't just order all the qualities you want you know what I want I want them to be sensitive and I want them to be kind and I love them Be super motivated and ambitious and I want you to know that you get what you get and there will be all these different qualities and if that's really important to you and you're going to feel like I want to change this person, then that's doomed. the person is who they are now it's different if the person says I'm working on this for myself this is something I'm trying to do this is my area of ​​growth right now and maybe you could say how I can support you and then you just do what that they ask of you, you don't do more than what they ask of you in terms of support, but if you want someone to come, you know that they are intrinsically driven that way, they are probably not a good partner for you and I guess the counterpoint.

It's also true that you can discover someone who is ambitious and motivated, but they may not have the other qualities, but I think that's obviously what researchers today call the paradox of choice. We've heard that so many times and I think today because there are so many more options or at least the perception that there are so many more options. I think there is a belief that people have. I don't want to settle. I believe this person exists and will have all these things. How have you navigated that? clients when they tell you I feel like I'm getting older I'm worried about my biological clock I'm afraid you won't find someone I'm getting pressure from my parents and my friends but at the same time I don't want to settle, which is a completely fair feeling and valid, right at the same time you say, well, you can't ask someone on the spot, and so how can we help people deal with those?

I guess contradictory ideas or what at least seems that way. I think you have to know what your deal breakers are, but they have to be the right kind of deal breakers, so I want people to let go of some of the things that research shows they don't. It doesn't matter for a happy, long-lasting relationship and I want people to have higher standards, ironically, about what it means, character issues, you know, is this person, a kind person, the two most important predictors of whether a relationship will be successful are emotional stability, right? You both have emotional stability.

Are you complete in that sense? I don't want to say that you finished well, I just want to say that you can self-regulate you can have a conversation you don't behave atrociously you are honest about that kind of thing and the other thing is flexibility. um, it's very difficult to be in a relationship with someone who is very rigid, so those are two things to really think about, but in terms of character qualities, what should be the deciding factor, is this person responsible? Do they mean what they say? How are they presented? What do they do under stress?

That's really important because you will experience it over the course of your lives together. Do they have a sense of humor just when things are stressful? we still have those contradictions, this is hard and we can support each other, make each other laugh, you know, the things that people obsess over are, oh, I'm not sure that career is the career I want, so being with someone . right, instead of wow, they're really passionate about this, it's a really cool quality, so maybe they don't make as much money, but between what I make and them, what they do, it's going to work for us, so you know, letting go is something like that.

Like a lot of these fantasies that tell us that as kids we should look for a partner versus who you want to spend time with every day, who is the person you really enjoy spending time with and who you also feel safe with. and I think security is very important. I feel safe with this person because I know they are not going to pull the rug out from under me. Yes, that's great advice. I love hearing about the things that should be a deal breaker and the things that shouldn't and I want to talk about those first two.

I think there's a lot of growth today and maybe it's always been that way, but a lot of our growth happens while we're with people, it doesn't happen because we figured it out before we were 18 or 21 and now we move into a relationship and I don't think that people often get the best versions of people. You're getting the work-in-progress version all the time, like you said, no one's done, but I think that's what most of the time I hear about such a lack of flexibility and such a lack of emotional regulation when I hear people's stories and learn about them and how people talk to each other, how people deal with problems and I find that Of course, where does everyone obviously relate to talking to you from a therapeutic perspective?

A lot of it comes from childhood, a lot of it comes from personal trauma. It's very hard to make sense of that when you're meeting someone for the first time and you're dating someone who you're almost meeting, you're meeting the best version of them, uh, because it's the one they're portraying or the one they want you to see and then, naturally, you spend more time with someone, you see them stressed, you see them angry, you see them. It bothers me that you're starting to see this whole other 360. I guess the question is how do we allow for the fact that we're less likely to meet someone who is the finished product, but at the same time give ourselves enough time to not feel too deep. or falling in love too much, yeah, I think of that saying in the first three months of a relationship, it's not you, it's your ambassador, so it's really hard to tell and everyone is on their best behavior, but I think the people you meet.

You're still having a lot of deep discussions in those first three months because you feel this incredible vulnerability and intimacy and people will tell you a lot of things that you may not want to hear, so it's these red flags and you're being kind. from blocking them you think, well, okay or I'm not going to pay attention to that, you project onto them who you want them to be instead of who they really are and I think what you said about our relationship we grow. It is very true. I think people grow a lot more in couples

therapy

than in individual therapy because you're forced to deal with another person that you're dealing with and I really feel like you have to listen to them. everything they tell you is good, it's questionable, all that and just say what that means and you can even think about it, well, let me get more information about that.

What did they mean when they said oh, they really don't want to? Children like it. What does that mean? Does that mean now? Does that ever mean? What does that mean? You have to listen to these things. You know what that means? Where are they? They really, really talk. You know, very aggressively. language about a parent, for example, that means that yes, maybe that parent really let them down and maybe there was a lot of trauma, but how have they processed that and where are they processing that? Because if that's still so raw for them, that will come.

In your relationship with them, maybe you don't think that they are going to date you, but it will be right for us to get married with our unfinished business, so I think you really have to be aware of that, so no, you are not looking for like a Person that has all the

answers

. I don't think anyone has all the answers, but what you're looking for is a willingness to show up, a willingness to take responsibility, a willingness to apologize, that's huge, and also a willingness to bring things up. listen to what the other person has to say, so a lot of times when I'm dating a couple, someone says, you know, oh, this person never brings it up.

I'm less interested in the fact that they don't bring it up. and I'm more interested in why you're afraid why you can't talk to your partner and they could tell when I've brought things up my partner tries to talk me out of what I feel when I try to bring things up my partner tries to tell me that I'm wrong when I try to take things out My partner shuts down when I try to take things out My partner screams I'm wrong when I try to take things out My partner acts like they don't like me anymore, so they say, "Okay, I'm not going." to bring it up," so we have to talk about it.

Well, this is a dance you two are doing. It's not just that this person is avoiding, it's that you are inviting. avoidance, so no one is to blame here, it's just that you are dancing and you both have to change your dance steps if you want to change the dynamic in the relationship. I think a lot of our inflexibility leads to this binary thinking of oh. Oh my gosh, if they have problems with their parents then I can't be with them or if they have this I can't be with them and I think or if they are like that then I should be with them and I almost feel like there's a middle ground of just no.

It's just that these are things that I need to be aware of and then I can still be in a relationship or choose not to, but I feel like there's a lot of binary decision making based on small data. points yes, because we are so scared of our own trigger or our own pain that comes from that that we can easily dismiss something that maybe needs a little more work, yes. I don't know if if you agree you can disagree. completely, I'm just sharing my thoughtsAt least oh yes, I agree. A great example of that is that he was dating a couple and he had a lot of issues with authority because his father really abused authority when he was growing up, so that's a big trigger for him and he's really working on it, so If he wasn't working on it it would be different, but he really is working on it, but sometimes things happen and that's why his partner had this beautiful thing that we came up with.

In couples therapy, a beautiful way for her, you know when you can see the child's childhood wounds and you can help them, they are working on it, so you are not solving it for them, but you can support them in some way, so if she saw He in public might feel provoked by something that wouldn't happen often, if it happened often that would be a problem, she would just put her hand on his arm like that and that would calm his nervous system and bring him back. at the moment. with something so beautiful that she could do for him and she had childhood things and he knew, oh, I can see the girl in her right now.

I have so much compassion instead of getting frustrated about it. So much compassion for the girl. I know this about her and this is what I can do for her in that moment, these shorthand, these little things that you can do to help someone instead of going from zero to sixty, you just go from zero to five and then you're like, oh. , me too. can go back down, we think we can see where our partners' triggers are and what their weaknesses are, especially if you get to know them better and you start to think, oh yeah, I know his mom talks to him like that and that's why he's talking. with me like that because she's taking that stress away from me, that's helpful, but often we don't see it as context and compassion and empathy, we see it as how she didn't understand it, yeah, or how they didn't understand it, that's what. where it comes from and we almost want our partner to like learn the lesson or is it so obvious how you can't see it and here you are talking about a gentle touch on the arm helping someone calm their trigger how do you help each other?

I understand your triggers in a way that doesn't trigger you because I feel like it's a very delicate conversation and because some people are not self-aware and some of us are self-aware or you're seeing things in others but you can't. look at yourself how you can have healthier conversations hey, do you know why we behave this way? Do you know why we are talking like this? Yes, we just had a beautiful episode on the podcast, so on our podcast, dear

therapist

, we have We bring people to our real sessions and then we give them homework to do and then they tell us how it went until the end of the session in the that we had this young couple and her trigger was the weight she wanted and was trying to establish. a boundary, but it was a very difficult boundary, you know, sometimes we think about boundaries, since I'm going to make this request and you're going to do it, and if you don't do it, then you've broken my boundary, that's what.

It's not about how boundaries work, okay, it's about boundaries and I think this is a really important point related to this, which is that when you set a boundary, you're deciding for yourself what you will do, not what will do. the other person so you can tell them. the other person in his case I don't like it when you talk about weight because that's a big trigger for me growing up that was something that was always talked about I don't want to talk about diets I don't want to talk about people's weight or the appearance of people that really bothers me, but it got to the point where I couldn't say anything about you know, it was too restrictive a boundary and then they would argue about it because then you're like I'm just not going to say anything because I never know what's going to trigger you.

His limit could have been. I'm going to ask him not to say a reasonable number of things about weight, but there are certain things he could say and Maybe I'm going to have to leave the room or I'm going to self-regulate or I'm going to have a mantra for myself, that's what. I'm going to do, they would argue about this and what would happen if she Did you know we had to get to something that was underneath this and she finally figured out that it's like she needs more affirmation? I need more like just flirting with me during the day or you know, and he said I need that too and so we gave them I did this task where they just had to do very subtle flirting, you know, just once a day and she stopped a little note on the bathroom mirror and he said, "Oh my God, that made me feel like that all day.

I was so excited." it's these little things and then she got less excited when food showed up because he cared so much about making you look beautiful and she said you always say when I get my eyebrows done you're like damn and she's like why not? Don't you do that with other things? I don't want to have to do my eyebrows properly and he was like, "Oh my God, I think you're so beautiful." I should say that more, yeah, so it's just realizing, you know what? is really the trigger and then how can you as a partner support that?

Yeah, and I just want to re-emphasize that point if someone missed it, it's like boundaries aren't about controlling other people's actions towards you, they're about controlling your own actions based on what others do well for you. and the important part of boundaries is maintenance, by the way, so it's not just one time, let's say you tell someone you know if um, if you yell at me, if you raise your voice, I'm going To end the conversation, we had this on the podcast with someone else, the father kept talking to his daughter about when are you getting married, when are you and your boyfriend getting married and she said if you mention that.

I'm going to end the conversation. I'm going to leave the room because I want to have fun with you when I'm with you and this makes it really stressful so every time it had to be every time he mentions what you say. Dad just reminds you that we'll talk another time and if you don't do it consistently, let's say you do it 10 times, but then once you want to, he lets the conversation continue and the person thinks, oh, I can. Keep talking about this because they're not going to leave the room, they're not going to end the conversation, so again, what you want to do is keep the boundary to yourself each time and the other person will realize it in a moment.

At a certain point, if I want to be in the presence of that person, I can't mention this because every time they are going to leave and I think that is the mistake we make, we break our own boundaries, yes, to show our care or to be seen like a good person or whatever, but that ends up setting us up for more failure because now that person thinks they might as well cross the line because we're doing it anyway. Yes, boundaries are a fascinating thing because I find them very useful in many areas of my life, but I think you just hit the nail on the head: it's when we let our guard down on our own boundaries that really allows people to think they can break them.

Anyway, it's not about them. breaking them like you stay pretty strong on that, I mean, yeah I mean people can still do whatever they want, but at least you'll know where you stand with them. I remember a small example of what you just said. I remember every time I would return to London because I would like to see my family there. There were certain members of my family who always told me, "Oh, you're only coming back for 30 days and then I see them during the week often." I'd be like oh you only have 21 days left and I'll just be like guys I'm back for 30 days like you know and I had to draw the line and it sounds so small and silly but it's not because I didn't like hearing that because I thought : "let's be really grateful for this present moment", "let's have the best time together right now" and I don't want to sit here and think about how many days I have left.

Again, it may be very small but it may be very important to you, but I have to honor it. Okay if you mention time again then I want to be in a relationship with you but we need to have these boundaries I remember someone wrote in the column that a parent wrote and said my daughter has all these boundaries about how many times I call her during the day and she was like, you know I want to, I'm setting a boundary. and he wrote and said I don't want to be in a borderline relationship and I wrote back and told him every The relationship is a relationship with limits, you can't just do whatever you want in a relationship, all relationships have limits, it's like it's the difference between being in a limitless ocean or being in a fish tank where the limits are too narrow and people You can't live, you want to be in an aquarium in a relationship, so there is enough room for each person to have their space, but it is not so restricted that everyone is walking on eggshells and it's not as open as an ocean where you can. just do what you want yeah well said I like that analogy and I think the important thing about the boundary is that when you set the boundary it says I want to be closer to you I want to have a relationship with you but if you keep doing that will push me away, so please don't mention this, don't criticize me, don't talk about whether I'm married because that will push me further away.

I want to be close to you and in fact there is a sign of closeness because if someone is really learning about your boundaries, they are actually learning about some of the most intimate details about you, because if you say this triggers me or this makes me feel annoying or does this really affect me. You are actually vulnerably displaying something that is so meaningful and meaningful to you and that should bring you closer to someone else. It's like that person really values ​​the season and respects you enough to open up and share a weakness or pain with you.

Period, yeah, I saw some friends on the podcast we were doing and they got together and said I set some boundaries and the other person thinks I don't want to be friends and no, what you're saying is I want this friend. We have been friends since childhood and things changed, things evolve. As you move into adulthood and you move into family life and your different stages of life, whatever they may be, and this person said, I'm doing this because I want our friendship to be important to me. important thing and once the other friend heard that boundaries were okay was that this person thought "oh you're trying to leave me" and she's like no, I'm doing the opposite, I'm trying to keep our friendship alive, yeah, and I think that's part of communication.

I feel like there's a need for whoever you are, if you're the person in the relationship who is almost to some extent guiding this conversation, it's important that you clarify why you're setting the boundary. I think often we just say This is what I want to do and we announce it and it's more of an announcement than it is setting a boundary and it's much more powerful when someone tells you, hey, I really value our relationship and I think this is We're going to get closer and that's why I'm actually being very vulnerable with you and I'm sharing with you this is what I feel when you do this, it will mean a lot to me if we could change this or This is how I'll probably behave if this happens, but that kind of shell in which sometimes our communication must take place demands a lot from us and I receive comments from many people when we talk to them. on the podcast and through my books and the whole thing is that people feel like they're often the ones carrying the torch to help this maturity develop in a relationship and a lot of people are pretty burned out by that and they're like, well, my goodness. , I'm like trying to help us set boundaries, I'm the one who makes agreements, I'm the one who encourages us to be positive and it can be very exhausting to carry the torch, what do you say to people who feel that way right now, but They're like, you know what, Laurie?

I'm trying to be curious with my partner. I'm trying to do this with my friends. I'm like the one who is preparing this, but now I'm exhausted and that's why I don't do it. I don't know how long I can do it and I just want them to step up as often as possible. What we will see is that if that person comes to couples therapy, we will discover that the person does not want to step forward and You keep asking them to do something that they are not interested in doing and just so you know, the question I would ask the person who feels like they carry the burden of everything is why are you trying so hard? in this you know what it is how this works for you because this is so difficult you are not happy why are you why are you staying why are you trying to get this person to do something why can't you find someone who is willing and interested in the type of things that you're interested in in a relationship, then there's usually some old stuff about what we call repetition compulsion, which is trying to find someone who's not willing to give you what you need or want that's maybe something old and then you think you're going to give it to them.

I'm going to do with this person because this time I will win this time I can make it happen I couldn't do it when I was a kid but this time I will win, except you won't win, it doesn't happen that way, the way you win is to let it go, you You grieve for what you didn't get and then you go look for it in someone without trying to change them, so you're not trying to gain anything, that's it.there, but another reason why something else might happen is that this couple comes to couples therapy and the person says, "I'm not going to show up because the other person is so controlling." this person has tried to control everything they are trying to establish every role they are trying to manage every aspect of our lives and there is no room for me and my thoughts and how I want things to go and when I say I want this they say no you are wrong no, it can't be that's my way that's how it is that's how I am the healthy person you are the unhealthy person and that doesn't feel good either yes, it requires a lot of self-digging to see if we are being that person or if we can often get lost in our holier-than-thou self and feeling like oh, I'm so emotionally mature and I'm so self-aware and I'm doing the work and I know the language and all of a sudden we're being so evangelical that the person we're with speaking feels that he has no voice, impact or participation in one of them.

The scenarios that came up in this conversation as we were preparing for this podcast were the following: The woman earns more than the man and has no problem with it, she is very comfortable with it, she didn't care, she wasn't. her, that wasn't a big priority because it wasn't a deal breaker for her, but it's really triggering for him and he's uncomfortable with it, so if the topic of money or budget comes up, he often tries yeah, he gets very feeling uncomfortable about it can make it can make him angry can make him angry she's trying to figure out how she can help him be more confident and comfortable and happy about who he is and not feel this pressure that he feels potentially coming from his family or his upbringing as well, yes, it would be great if they talked about this in couples therapy and really understood what money represents to them, it represents self-esteem, acceptance, love, power, lack of power, money represents so many. things that I think that when people talk about money, if they talk about money in their relationships, it is such a delicate topic that they tend to talk about it at a content level, like let's make a budget or why you spent money on that right and they In We're not really talking about how we both feel about money.

What money was like in our homes when we grew up. What were the messages we received about money? Some people received very contradictory messages. You know money is good. Money is bad. We have money. We don't have money, um value judgments, it's okay to spend money on this, but not on this, so you bring all that into your relationship and then gender roles, of course, what does that represent? What kind of family did you have? growing up in terms of how they thought about gender and power and money and how that changes with culture with the kind of maybe egalitarian marriage that you want, those are all conversations that need to be had, yeah, not about let's sit down and do a budget, but about all the questions that I was asking, they're great questions and I know they work because my wife and I have sat down and looked at that throughout our marriage and we've had a lot of questions. about that because we both come from very different financial situations and the relationship with money was very, very different.

I started working very, very young, my wife started working while she was in college and then just as time got older, our lifestyle changed and things changed there. There were so many conversations that we had to always restart and it wasn't just like, oh, we've figured it out, now we don't talk about money anymore and it's just that we've had to almost reevaluate and rethink that topic so many times. times depending on how many changes there are but I think those are the questions that I find people avoid or when they talk about it it's always a full blown argument so it's like you said it's about budget if they talk about it in a healthy way or at least a practical way is probably a better word or we don't talk about it because you're too afraid to bring it up because when you do it turns into a full blown argument and now we're arguing not even about money we're arguing about something else I want helping people have the tools to start difficult conversations with people in their lives could be a mom could be a dad could be you know I feel like all of us avoid awkwardness in our lives and uncomfortable conversations are one of the most important, whether it's when you're firing someone, when you're giving feedback to someone, when you're trying to be direct with someone, these are such challenging things to do like, do we sit in discomfort or how do we prepare for uncomfortable conversations to help them improve?

First of all, I think people are worried that they are somehow being unpleasant by bringing up something that is uncomfortable. The kindest thing you can do is have a conversation with someone who is real, genuine and authentic. I think the first way to start is to start with yourself, so before you get to the other person you want to be able to tell them to tell you yourself. I'm being very kind and I'm remembering her humanity and I'm going to have this conversation in an open, generous and curious way, so I'm not here to set my agenda necessarily.

I'm here to be curious about your experience so together we can come to some kind of mutual understanding that we didn't have before and I think that's the framework that you go into any difficult conversation with, yeah, and it's almost like everything comes down to it. back to what we are discussing. today it's like framing a conversation. I think we get lost a lot and we wonder what we're trying to figure out, yeah, and we're trying to be very logical and it's actually like not framing the conversation around the emotion of understanding how people feel about things and De where this is coming from and what this could lead to is much more important than solving the problem correctly and knowing that this will be a dialogue and not a monologue.

I think we think I have something important to say and you. you are going to deliver what you are going to deliver to them it is not a monologue it is not that I am going to deliver something it is that I come to raise an issue and I want to hear where the other person is coming from and you could I want to ask them first: Hey, I know that money has It's been a little stressful for us. Can we talk a little about that? I'm curious to know more about what money is, what it means to you, what it was like growing up.

I want to share with you what it means to me, what it was like for me growing up and you could have a really beautiful conversation. The other thing is that if it's a Romantic romantic relationship, holding hands, it's very difficult to argue that it actually calms the nervous system. just hold hands while having the conversation it's so lovely it opens people up to be more vulnerable yes no I love this tip and I really hope everyone is listening and watching they will try to practice some of these they they they . They're so subtle and there are such small ideas, but they make a big difference because it could be a game-changer when you approach the same conversation in a completely different way and it can transform the trajectory of your relationship with a person because there's so much more to it.

Respect for how you handled it too and we just did a podcast episode with a mother and daughter who have been having the same fight for 25 years. Wow, they came on the podcast and said we've never talked about it like this. and it's not because we did something that you know is unheard of, it was just because they had never been taught to talk, they have been having literally the same conversation or lack of conversation when you know one person would leave out the other, usually the same daughter excluding the mother and they never talked about it this other way and I think a lot of people think, oh, we have a problem and it can't be solved.

Many problems are so solvable that many things can be cured, perhaps not exactly the way. you want, but certainly to have more of a relationship than you ever had than you ever thought possible. um, okay, I have a lot more for you. I hope you're having fun, Lorien, sure, yeah, I love talking about all this stuff, yeah, it's So it's fascinating to dive into these real scenarios that you all have sent in and I want to say a huge thank you to everyone on Instagram who sent me all of them. these amazing notes for this episode.

There are a few more here that I really want to get to this point. This is a good one because it relates to something we discussed earlier, but it's a more specific question about when in your mind you know when you're settling or not. How do you know? I think if you're asking yourself that question, it's a very important sign. But I think you need to make it clear if this is a cultural thing, like the culture is telling me I need to be with someone like that. um and if that's like the general culture or the specific culture that you grew up in or the family culture whose voice is, I think it's really important that as adults, sometimes we can't distinguish our own voice from the voices of others. people who raised us or the culture I still think it's an important question.

I also think the question is: Do you know? When we think about the commitments we have to make to another person, we don't tend to think about the commitments someone has to make. Have you be with us, which is a really important point, it's not like it's not like you know that. I think people treat dates like they're purchases, like they want this. I'm going to look for this and it's not what the clothes will be like when you go shopping. like I don't think you're going to look good in that or I'd rather be with someone who looks different like the clothes aren't judging you right but the thing is like when you get into a relationship with coming back To know, we can't ask the a la carte people, they can't ask you a la carte either and we have this strange notion in our culture that, like love, it's loving all the annoying things about me too, no people don't do that.

They will love you even though you have these annoying things, but that doesn't mean they will love the annoying things, of course they don't, so we have this strange idea that this extra love is unpleasant and it's just that they misuse it. term, so I think we need to remember that as we think about this whole human being, this person is choosing us with all our annoying things, our quirks are maybe our past that we haven't really gotten over and are still getting over. and you know, we have this idea that you know I'm buying for someone, you're not buying for someone, how do I feel around this person, that's the most important question you can ask, how do I feel when I'm with this person. person and if you feel like you enjoy their company you feel heard you feel understood you feel safe you um you're having fun you're not settling everything else is just noise yeah yeah I really like those two really powerful points, I think so a lot of our definitions of the perfect couple come to terms, you know, whatever it is, it comes from a social impact of the parents, yeah, so what do my friends think of it or how would they react?

Oh no, they'll know I'm settling and it's Well, wasn't that your definition of what a good match was and the second point you made that I love it because I do it all the time when I'm sitting in my head and thinking about God. , I have done it like this. Many sacrifices for my wife. I have done this or that. I come up with a list of hers in my head and say, oh, she's done so many. It is a great activity to do. When I think about it, I often ask people. to zoom out and say that you can think that maybe someone is sitting there doing everything financially for a relationship or I do everything physically for this relationship, like grocery shopping, cleaning the house, whatever it is, I always ask the people who come Get out and go look at your life physically, financially, mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

OK, if you're making all the sacrifices in all five, there's something really important to look at, but most of the time, when people walk away, they're like, "Oh, you're actually there." Just as I take over here and they take over there and there is a bit of give and take, yes, and I would say that also an exercise to do is to describe the relationship from their perspective, yes, of course, what are they putting up with? really if they did, if they really talked about the relationship from their perspective, there would be all these wonderful things and there would also be all the sacrifices that they're making and sometimes we forget about that, absolutely okay, I like this. one, uh, then there's this person who was fired from his job and decided that maybe he wanted to go into comedy because he always had a dream of being a comedian, but he doesn't want to feel like he's taking a step back from service. industry to pursue her goals that may be very far from reaching she has some problems with the structure and facing the unknown of it all, how do you suggest she structure it and give herself tangible reference points?

I think people make this binary. I'm either not going to pursue my dream and give up everything else or I'm not going to pursue my dream and I always tell people that you can have two things at once, it's much safer to say: I'm going to try comedy and I'm going to put everything I have into it, but I'm also not going to quit my job just yet so I can see if this really works for me or not before I quit this other thing so I don't have to be so binary, yeah me. Agree with that,I think I think too often we make that move too quickly, yeah, if someone comes up and says, yeah, just listen to your podcast and decide to do this big shot.

I think, oh, I don't think I said that. Like, please don't do that, like you know, that's definitely not what I'm encouraging, if anything, I'm encouraging this journey of learning about something you love, experimenting first, maybe doing internships, apprenticeships, seeing how it's done. really does the job. much more towards an incremental yes approach to change rather than thinking that this big holistic approach is going to suddenly deliver some miraculous reward, if anything, if you go slower you'll learn more and then when you take the big leap, you'll do it. I'm actually more likely to be more successful, that's right, and I think the other question to ask is: Am I moving towards something or am I trying to escape from something? because sometimes people just jump into something very impulsively because they want to get out of their situation and they don't do well with uncertainty because most people don't want it, so they want an answer and they feel like I can't leave this thing alone.

I know it makes me unhappy. I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. I don't want to do this job anymore, but I don't know what else to do, so I'm going to do this other thing, but you're not even sure you want to do the other thing yet, are you running away or are you moving towards yes, definitely and I think that when we try to escape too soon, yeah, without thinking it through, yeah, and that's actually one of the

biggest

things that I've been talking about a lot lately because I think it's impacted me a lot in my life and it's almost like no you like where you are, if you can find a way to learn from it and when I say learn from it I don't mean a magical life. lesson, I mean think about what are the practical lessons that I could learn here, what are the things that I can be curious about.

I sure don't like the setup. I don't like my boss, but maybe there's something here that really benefits me. in the future, all of a sudden, I'm not saying it becomes the best job you've ever had, but it doesn't feel as painful as you take the next step, yeah, whereas this desire to run away from the pain or to feel it again is maybe that's a strong word, but running away from a place you want to escape from, you might actually fall back into the same thing another way, which we do again in relationships and we do it all the time, someone says: I'm going to go away This relationship and then, oh but I fell in love with this other person, maybe you need to leave that relationship, but why don't you take a moment?

Why don't you see? Are you going with someone else? You are going to repeat. all the same things in this other relationship or do you want to understand more about do I understand what happened in this relationship why it didn't work out and now I can leave in a way that makes me feel good or maybe I was wrong and maybe there was actually Something great here, but there was one problem he wasn't willing to face in this relationship. Yes, I want to ask you this question because obviously today we are talking about your beautiful new Diary that helps you, maybe you should talk to someone that is the book that I interviewed you about a couple of years ago, it is such a phenomenal book that has helped so many people to how and why journaling is valuable to everything we are discussing today.

I think there's one of the things that happens when you keep a journal. You enter this space that you don't enter when you are not writing it when you can really see something it is very different from thinking about it our thoughts are fleeting they just move they are very disorganized and that thing about keeping a journal Nobody is judging it, nobody is seeing it, it is just for you. You know, I used to think it was funny because I posted this journal, but I didn't want to write a journal because I thought it's a chore and I'm going to have to do it. sit down and you'll have what if you know I don't know what to say or I don't really have anything to say and what's the way I've structured this diary.

There is a message that perhaps comes from you. You should talk to someone just to give yourself a little structure, but it follows you for 52 weeks of the year like a therapy session and we always say that most of the therapy work happens outside of the therapy room, so the people think. I'm going to come to therapy. I'm going to have all these ideas and that's my therapy. No, if you don't use what you learn in therapy and put it into practice during the week, then Insight is useless, so someone might say, "Oh, I got into that fight with my partner again and now I understand why and I'll say, well, that's great, but did you do something different?

Well, no, but okay, good first step, understand why, but now You need to do something different, so when you reflect every day during the week, then say what am I doing with this little bit of knowledge so that the message maybe inspires you some kind of knowledge about your life and then how can you manage that during the week and you can see your progression because you have written it down and what I love about doing a journal for a year is that you can look like three months ago. I thought this, but look at how I'm handling this situation now it only takes five minutes.

Many people will wake up in the morning and write a journal just to clear their minds. We will wake up and the first thing we will do is look at our phones and we are already stressed and that's it. Thinking about oh I didn't do this or I'm already behind is not a good way to start the day. I love taking five minutes in the morning to write, so then it will be there and I don't have to sit down. with it throughout the day, a lot of people also do it right before bed because you know sometimes we just think all these thoughts before we go to bed and that keeps you up at night and you can't sleep.

Daily before bed and now. you feel like, oh, I'm really completely clean, I feel good, so I think journaling is really valuable and I think it reminds me of something we often say in relationships: it's easy to notice the person getting angry. a relationship and it's harder to notice the person who smiles all the time, so when people say, oh, my partner is angry all the time and it's good because you're ignoring that person who's holding in the anger for both of us, If you journal, you might notice if you're the person who smiles all the time and maybe you have some anger or maybe you have trouble bringing something up and if you're a really avoidant person like the person who smiles all the time, it's good to say. journal because then you say, oh wait, there are things I want to mention and let me figure out what to do with them or if you are the person who is angry and is holding on to the anger for both of us, you can start to realize it through journaling No. , it's not my job, why am I angry all the time?

This person is not willing to have any of these conversations. This person is hindering me. So you discover a lot about yourself and your patterns when you have this space that you can be vulnerable because no one is judging you and also, one of the things that I think is so special about journaling is that it's much easier to measure physical change, so that if you are trying to gain weight, lose weight if you want. you're trying to build muscle, you know, whatever it is, you can measure it and there's a number and I found that for me journaling has always been a great way to look back a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, and do what I was doing. thinking about where I was in my mental space, what I was worried about, and I often found that when I did that, you can actually see the growth, yeah, the same way as if you had a marker and if you don't keep a journal every time. days.

Like you don't know if you're moving forward or backward because you don't have anything to think about, you just have your feelings in the moment, whereas when you look back and think, five years ago I can't leave. I used to worry about that exam or that interview or whatever it was and now I think I wouldn't worry about it at all, things have changed yeah, so for me it's a great way to monitor and measure growth, yes. and I think change is really hard, that's why New Year's resolutions tend to not work for people most of the time and you can see when you journal that I talk about in the book, maybe you should talk to someone. about the stages of change and you can see them happen, so precontemplation is you don't even know you're thinking about making a change, so that's when you're like in denial in your Journal like, oh no, this isn't really happening and you see You you justify or rationalize things that you know are just not right and then contemplation is you know you need to make a change but you're not ready yet so now you're getting real with yourself, that's the time when people usually come to therapy. in contemplation, but you can see it in the journal.

Oh, now I'm really coming out of denial and then there's the preparation where you're saying how do I prepare to make this change, what steps should I take if I want to? leave this relationship or I want to get into a relationship and expose myself more or I want you to know that I want to chase some dream or I want to set a boundary so how am I preparing for this and then is when to act? you actually make the change, but that's not the last step, the last step is maintenance and that's the most important change and that doesn't mean I have to maintain the change and be perfect, it means I'm going to regress like in Shoots. and Ladders, so it's like yeah, I'll do it, there will be oh, I broke up with that person but no, I called them, I didn't mean to call them, that doesn't mean you failed, that just means you're human and so how can?

You show up and you can do this in your Journal. How can you write something to yourself that is very compassionate but also holds you accountable? So how can you search your Journal for how I talk to myself? Know? He hit me? I'm awake all the time. Am I a bully to myself or can I be compassionate to myself? Because that will really help me stay responsible. I can be more responsible when I am kind to myself. That doesn't mean, oh, it's okay that you called him, you just got back into the relationship with him, it means that you were feeling sad or you were feeling lonely and you called him because you were feeling lonely, but maybe next time I'll call a friend, maybe Maybe next time go for a walk. maybe next time I go to this meeting you know what you have to do and then you're being really compassionate and you have in your journal something like this friend who is very kind to yourself, who knows you very well and who knows what you have to do and it's right there on the page, a big note on your general that lets you know how you talk to yourself, yeah, the language that you use with yourself and it helps you change that because when it's on the page you can cross it out. edit it, you can write a new version when it's in your head, it keeps repeating itself and you never get to that point to edit it or filter it Laurie, you've been so smart with time today.

I want to ask you one last thing. and it's about what you just mentioned there and I think it's breakups and you know, I still find to this day that breakups seem to be the hardest yes relationship transition that people tend to go through, maybe apart of grief or maybe even similar, and I would love your take on that, but because it's a type of loss, I think people feel like there was a person in the audience that we were connected to that had a breakup and really They were together with this person for two years.

They thought this was the person they were going to spend their life with. They really thought this was going in that direction. They felt like they actually had a good compatibility. They were good at talking about things, but then what felt like something unexpected? person, they just felt like this person was saying, “I don't think this is going in that direction anymore,” and then things withered quickly. It's hard when you know and this is probably what happens all the time. People don't feel. a sense of closure, they don't really understand that the other person isn't doing a good job explaining it and doesn't want to or doesn't have the time, what are some of the steps we should take when we're kind of like that?

Lost in that no man's land I thought I had something it's gone so first of all loss is exactly grief and people go through the stages of grief and the stages of grief are not sequential so they are in It's actually meant for people who are suffering from a terminal illness, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, um, but I think they are very suited to any type of loss and when you talk about a breakup, there can be denial like, oh, you don't really mean we're really compatible and you try to convince the other person to maybe see the light that they can't see, you know anger is how you could fool me for so long, you're so terrible. person, you wasted all my time, you were lying to me all this time when the person wasn't there they probably really, you know, they thought this was going somewhere, you know, negotiation is fine, what if you know you know the person tells you maybe why they are breaking up with you?

I don't think we're compatible this way. and then you try to become something that you know like what if I did this or can I be more this or can we dothis and they say no, that's not really the way this is going to be resolved, you know, the depression where it's just In general, I want to say that's the way it is because I think what people don't realize is that It is not what you are losing in the moment, but that you are losing the future that you had imagined, so you lose the past, you lose like everything. amount of time you spent with that person you built a life with this person and it's the everyday there's an intimacy in that everyday there's a comfort there's a security of this person knows all these little quirks about me um you know we have all these inside jokes we have a short hand um, you know, this person asks what my day is like, I know, you know, it's the day to day life of being with someone, then you lose it, that's very lonely, but then you also lose the future, you had built a whole story about what their lives were going to be like in a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years ago and they have nothing to replace it with right now because they don't know what it's going to be like yet, so the pain is real and I think people tries. to downplay it, they say: why are you so sad about this?

He was an idiot or she was an idiot or whatever. I'm sad because I lost something very important to me and your friends need to realize that instead of just demonizing it. The other person needs to realize that you lost something really valuable in your daily life in the present in the future. Part of your past, all of that is gone now, so that's very difficult. I think the other part of dealing with pain is allowing yourself to feel it because it's real, no matter what people tell you, it's real and the other part is the story that you're telling yourself is really important, so you might as well be telling you a story about how terrible the other person might feel.

Well in the moment it could be something like I'm bad, you know, I'm not good enough if it were just something else, this person would love me more or I'm not lovable or I'll never find anyone, right, those are stories no. useful because it is not true, it is that you are not compatible with this person for whatever reason, even though you thought you were, if the other person does not feel that you are the right person for them, you are automatically incompatible, right? you can't make it well they just don't see it then we're not compatible because the other person doesn't want to be with me so many times I'll hear that you know someone even without a breakup like someone I'll be dating someone and the person isn't really interested in the relationship, maybe time in the way they would like too and the person sitting on my couch will say, but we are so compatible, we are so perfect for each other, that person. he just has intimacy issues and could change them even if the breakup was because you think the person had intimacy issues it doesn't really matter the point is they can't be with you so you're not compatible and that's just the way it is.

I think it's very comforting to know that we're just not compatible, even though it hurts a lot, we're not compatible enough to handle the pain. I need to know that we were not compatible and that will not affect me in other relationships. I think that's the important thing, many times we get into a new relationship after that and punish the new person for something the previous person did, yes, like the previous one, the previous person was not honest with me, so I would like to check it out . your phone all the time no, no, I don't like it, putting someone in jail for a crime they didn't commit, so you must really like knowing what the wounds of this relationship are, what I'm learning from this, what it's teaching me this. about the other person and then how can I enter a new relationship with hope and caution and maintain both hope and caution?

Fantastic Lori, the reason I love talking to you about this is because you're doing this all the time, uh, whether it's in your private practice, whether it's with your beloved therapist or through your books, and whether you've been listening or looking at today, I hope everyone goes and gets a copy of maybe you should talk to someone from the journal 52 weekly sessions to transform. your life by Laurie Gottlieb and like I said you can subscribe to our podcast uh and if you haven't read maybe you should talk to someone uh make sure you go and pick up that book too Laurie, thank you so much for joining us by the way Oh, it's a pleasure that let's spend this time together today and answer some of our audience's questions and challenges, and I hope that everyone who had theirs has responded or maybe even if you didn't send anything but felt heard. and you felt seen and understood because so much of what we're all going through is so intertwined and thank you to everyone who is brave enough to share your stories and Lori, thank you for answering them so expertly.

Oh thanks. So much for having me, I always love having these conversations with you, thank you Laura, if you love this episode you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabo Mate about understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to begin to let go of the past. Nature grows only where it is vulnerable, so a tree does not grow where it is hard and thick, but goes where it is soft, green and vulnerable.