Trevor Noah and John Eligon Discuss Race and Identity In America | Get With The Times

Good night all. I'm Megan Kay, safer with the New York Times, and I'm excited to welcome you to catch up on our new series of live events for college students tonight. We're live from Northwestern, where Jarnell does and Trevor Noah. Join us for a conversation about

race

and

identity

in America today. Jarnell is a national correspondent for the New York Times who covers America's

race

issues, among other important topics. Also turning out to be a Northwestern alumnus is Trevor Noah, someone who needs no introduction, he's an author. comedian and host of the award-winning The Daily Show on Comedy Central, his first book born from crime stories from a South African childhood was an instant New York Times bestseller.

We are delighted to share that tonight the New York Times will be broadcasting this event to students who are hosting watch parties on college campuses across the country, you will hear from some of them later tonight, please join me in giving a warm welcome to John the ago and Trevor Noah, good evening everyone, good evening, thank you all so much for joining. us and we're really excited to have Trevor here, we have to talk about race and

identity

, which is like we could probably talk for four hours, but I don't think you have time for that, it's a really simple topic, but before we start I want to I want to thank everyone who joined us at Northwestern University here, the best institution in the country, maybe the world, and I would like to thank everyone who watches us live on Facebook at ny

times

.com.

We thank you for joining us. We have a very fascinating conversation here, but Before we begin, I want you all to know all the college students watching. We want to hear from you. We want this to be interactive. That's why we want to hear your stories about how you've experienced race and ethnicity on your college campuses. I want you to email the campus at ny

times

.com and we may post some of them on our website, so you can find that email address on the Facebook page, but it's on campus at nytimes.com and know that we do want. to hear their stories and hear how this topic relates to their lives, but before we begin, I think Trevor wrote an excellent autobiography.

A Crime Was Born Here, but it was a New York Times bestseller and I think we'll start with you reading a short passage from it. do you want me to read a passage yes please oh lord there is a school in the whole game okay this will be from the chapter titled chameleon when apartheid was coming to an end, South Africa's elite private schools began accepting children of all colors, my mother's. The company offered scholarships for disadvantaged families and got me into a school called Maryville College, an expensive private Catholic school. The classes were taught by nuns.

Mass on Fridays. I started preschool there when I was three years old. Primary school when I was. Five of us in my class had all kinds of kids, black kids, white kids, Indian kids, colored kids, most of the white kids were pretty well off, all the colored kids weren't, but because of the scholarships, we all got We sat at the same table that we dressed. the same maroon blazers the same gray pants and skirts we all had the same books we had the same teachers there was no racial operation every click was racially mixed the kids were still teased and bullied but it was for normal kid stuff, you know, being fat and being fat skinny being told I was short being smart or stupid I don't remember anyone being made fun of because of their race I didn't learn to set limits on what I was supposed to like or not like as if I had a lot of room to explore myself myself.

I fell in love with white girls I fell in love with black girls No one asked me what I was I was Trevor It was a wonderful experience, but the downside was that it shielded me from reality. You see, Maryville was not an oasis that kept me from the truth. comfortable place where I could avoid making a difficult decision but the real world doesn't go away racism exists people are being hurt and just because it's not happening to you doesn't mean it's not happening and at some point you have to choose black or white, choose a side, you can try to hide from it, you can say oh, I don't choose sides, but at some point life will force you to choose a side at the end of sixth grade.

I left Maryville to go to H a jack elementary school. government school I had to take an aptitude test before starting and based on the results of the test, the school counselor told me that you are going to be in the smart classes that I attended the eight classes that I showed up for on the first day of classes. In my classroom and of the 30 or so kids in my class, almost all of them were white, there was an Indian kid, maybe one or two black kids and me, then recess came, we went out to the playground and there were black kids around.

Everywhere, it was an ocean of black as if someone had turned on the faucet and all the black had gushed out. I wondered where they were hiding the white kids I met that morning, they were going one direction the black kids were going another direction and I was never standing in the middle totally confused if we were going to meet up later I didn't understand what was going on I had 11 years old and it was like I was seeing my country for the first time in the townships you don't see segregation because everyone is black In the white world, every time my mother took me to a white church we were the only black people there and my mother didn't know separated from anyone, she didn't care, she went and sat with the white people and in Maryville, the children were mixing and hanging out together before that day.

I had never seen people together and yet not together occupying the same space. They choose not to associate with each other in any way. In one case I could see, I could feel. how the boundaries were drawn, the groups moving in colored patterns across the courtyard, up the stairs, down the hallway, it was crazy. I looked at the white kids I had met that morning ten minutes earlier. I thought it was a school. I was in a school where they were now the majority, I realized how few they were compared to everyone else. I stood there alone, awkwardly, in no man's land, in the middle of the playground.

Luckily, I was rescued by the Indian boy in my class, a guy named CSUN pillai. CSUN was one of the few Indian kids at school, so he realized I was another obvious stranger right away and ran over to introduce himself. Hello classmate, anomaly, you are in my class, who are you? What's your story? We started talking and we got along well. I take the wing of him, The Artful Dodger, to my bewildered Oliver. During the conversation, it came up that I spoke several African languages ​​and Thiessen thought that a colored kid speaking black languages ​​was the most amazing party trick.

He took me to a group of black kids. Say something I told him and he will show you that he understands you a child said something in Zulu and I responded in Zulu everyone applauded another child said something in pass and I responded at home everyone applauded for the rest of the break Thiessen took me to different black kids on the playground show them your trick do your language black kids were fascinated in south africa back then it was not common to find a white person or a colored person who spoke african languages ​​during apartheid white people were always taught that those languages ​​were beneath them, so the fact that he didn't speak, although he did speak African languages, immediately endeared me to black children, how come you speak our languages?

They asked because I'm black. I said, like you, you're not. black, yes I am, no you haven't seen it, at first they were confused by my color, they thought I was a colored person, but speaking the same languages ​​meant I belonged to their tribe, it only took them a moment to realize. I figured it out, it took me a moment and at some point I turned to one of them and said, hey, how come I don't see you in any of my classes? It turned out that they were in the B classes, which were also the black ones. classes that same afternoon I went back to eight classes and at the end of the day I realized they weren't for me I suddenly knew who my people were and I wanted to be with them I went to see the school counselor.

I would like to change. I told her that I would like to go to B classes. She was confused. Oh no, she said. I don't think you want to do that. Why not? Because those children are. You should know. Don't know. What do you mean? Look, she said you're a smart kid. You don't want to be in that class. I said, but in class it's the same. English is English, mathematics, yes, but that advantage is that you know those children. They're going to stop you, you want to be in the smart class, I said, but surely there must be some kids and class B who are smart, no they're not, I said, but all my friends are there, you don't want to be friends. with those kids, yes I do, we went back and forth, finally she gave me a stern warning.

You realize the effect this will have on your future. You understand what you are giving up. This will affect the opportunities you will have available. For the rest of your life I will take advantage of that opportunity. I moved to the B classes with the black kids. I decided I'd rather stay behind with people I liked than move on with people I didn't know. Be in an AK change. She made me realize I was black before recess. I had never had to choose, but when forced to choose, I chose black. The world saw me in color, but I didn't spend my life looking at myself.

I spent my life looking at others. the people around me I saw myself as the people around me and the people around me were black my cousins ​​are black my mom is black my grandmother is black I grew up black because I had a white father because I was in school as a child white kids I got along well with the white kids, but I didn't belong with the white kids. I wasn't part of their tribe, but the black kids hugged me. Come on, they said you're with us with the black kids. I didn't try constantly.

Being with the black children. I thanked you very much for that. I want to talk about the phrase choose a team because as I read your autobiography I think it was a theme that I could feel throughout your entire life. decisions you make and how they lead to your identity, whether it was hanging out in the township and Alex, whether it was when you had to go to the jail holding cell and the group saw the Indians on the corner, covered the people in another corner. Come to the United States now, which team did you choose here?

Coming to the United States was an easy choice for me because I always identified and aspired to be a black American. You know, I remember growing up in the townships and we were poor and you knew you didn't have anything. but one of the first experiences I had of seeing someone glorify the nothingness of the world that they had was black Americans, that was the first time that the hood was a cool thing, it was the first time that people really seemed to have ownership of this identity rather than it being imposed on them, you know, and I understand the complexities of difference, you know when you get here, but ever since I was a young man I thought to myself it was like, oh, I want to be a part of that. culture, that's something I can relate to, it's something I want to join, so coming to America I couldn't choose before people told me they were like, oh, you're black, and I was like, oh , I was going to choose black.

Anyway, but yeah, whatever, yeah, it's almost easier here because, I mean, you talk about how, when you were a kid, it seemed like you were like a stray dog ​​in some ways. I mean, you had to figure out where you fell if you met a Swiss. father, right, African mother, how could you sail? Is it easier here? You almost identify with who you are. I think it's easier and harder at the same time, so for those who don't know, in apartheid South Africa the system was created. to separate people by race and when I say specifically I mean it was very precise, unlike the United States where there is a one drop rule, you know, in South Africa, the sides separated people by the finer detail of his skin, for his hair, so it wasn't like that.

They weren't just white and black, they were white and black, Indian and colored, and those things separated you, so there were some families where, if a father was a little darker than his children, then that father had to live in different areas of the country. children the children could go to a better school, then maybe their dad could go and then the mom could be very bright and would be considered white and this was a completely foreign world to many people, so it wasn't just black or white. You know, coming to America, even though there are a lot of black people or white people, but then you have to deal with the complexities of colorism and class and a completely different identity that arises, especially when you come from Africa, there is a completely different story that you have as immigrant, so the racial side is simple and then you get into the complexities of how you interpret what is happening to you because of your race.

When I was in South Africa, I did a story on Lindy Beam as a bucco she used to be. She was the head of the opposition party there and she was a sumo woman, but she was kind of light-skinned and there was kind of a narrative around her because she wasn't with the ruling party.with ANSI. Is it black enough? like she's for my American audience, I'm like she's a woman named Wendy Lee who speaks Zulu. I mean, this is as black as it gets, so I'm curious to know, being a light-skinned person here, what's your credibility like as being like a man from Africa, do people here see you as an African man and does that bring Do I get a certain kind of credibility about blackness that maybe you wouldn't otherwise have?

I don't know, it always varies, you know? I can only answer that question, you know, in regards to the people I've met, you know, some people have an idea of ​​me before they know me as a person and you know, when you engage in a competent conversation, then you start to realize what you have or don't have. you have in common, what you know, for example. I have found that many of the cultural experiences I have coming from Africa are very similar to what many black and Southern Americans experienced. the way you are raised culturally, in the ideas you have, in the way you address elders, in the way you are raised within a black family and the changes wherever you go, the one thing I always discovered was that black Americans were very fast. and warm, you know, in terms of welcoming, welcoming me as a person who once they found out I was from Africa, like when I first lived in Los Angeles, that was my nickname in all the comedy clubs, no one bothered to learn my name, the guys at the door would just be like "Ayo, it's Africa, let's go to Africa" ​​and I was like, "Yeah, I mean these countries too, but whatever, you know, because I I was like, 'What if another guy comes along?

So you're going to go to Africa whenever he gets you?" Give us the countries that you know, but I, but I, but I took it as and it was that it is affection, it is that it is a people in many ways that seek to connect you with something that they know that I suppose takes them back to a story that was stolen From them you know that many people have come up to me and said, "Hey, what part of Africa do you think I'm from?" I haven't traveled all of it but these are the stories I know these are the places I've been these are the people I've seen but for the most part I would say I've felt welcome I've felt like you know how to be African Adds something to the experience that I have with African Americans.

You mention colorism a little bit, and how would you sometimes talk in America about light-skin privilege? And I guess you experienced it in South Africa too. talk about that experience in South Africa versus you know how it compares to here oh I think it's very similar actually you know it's one of the vestiges of racism it's your color although you may still be in the same boat of being oppressed your color it would get you up a few rungs on the ladder of oppression and that's something you can't deny, you know, I know that having my skin tone can get me a few sentences further in a conversation than someone who is darker than what I would get and that was common in South Africa because in South Africa they wouldn't label me as black people saying that I'm colored, you know, what was strange for me is growing up.

I didn't grow up colored at all. In South Africa it is not just the tone of your skin, it is a culture, it is a culture of people who have an identity, they have their own dialect within a language, do you know a food, a tradition, a way of life and it is beautiful and They've created something out of a very dark past, but that's not how I grew up, you know, and so I never rejected it. I thought if you want to call me colored, call me colored, I understand why, but I always say I'm colored by, by, by, color, but not by. culture because the only reality I knew was growing up in a house of my grandmother, my mother, my aunt, it was a matriarchal house that, you know, defined how I lived, so I experienced that in times when people went, oh you .

No, you're not black like the rest of them, that's what they would say sometimes in South Africa, they would say oh, you're not like the rest of them, auu one of the good ones, that's what they would say and so on. you, you, you came, you know, you realize that in life you say, oh, I see this, I see how people feel like they can team up with you against people that you really see as your team because they think you're up for it. Stay away from that, it's really interesting if they do that based on skin tone because I feel like that happens here a lot like how people know I'm a black person New York Times reporter who's a bank or they're like, if you.

Aren't you like the rest? No, you are not one of them. Is it strictly based on skin tone? That's how they find out or I don't know. I'm sure there are multiple factors. I know what I found in my life, it's, it could be, it could be several things, sometimes it's my skin tone, sometimes it's my accent, you know, I'll get people to talk to me and all of a sudden it's like, oh wow, You speak very well, yes, and I. I'm like yeah, I studied English in school, right, you don't want to say that we were colonized by the British, but I get it, you know fundamentally because you know it goes back to the language in many ways and it's that people have been programmed to identify the language and the way people use language with who they are or what they think they are and so depending on how I speak, depending on where people see me and what they look like, it could even be how I wear my hair that It could determine how people you know talk to me or how they treat me all the time.

I thought you had braids, yes, I did. It is a very unfortunate moment. I don't think he was involved in that. It is necessary to mention that. I think I've been through enough pain in my life, that's not it, yeah, no, I did. I had to add braids for a long time. The jagged edge inspired my hair. I think you should get back to that. Well, I want to go back to something you said. I mentioned that you would always aspire to black American culture. I think you know when when you first changed your name to host of The Daily Show you know that everyone calls and checks your whole story and some black Americans criticized your brand of comedy like The Target was raised when black Americans said that either you played into stereotypes. negative or you questioned their authenticity in the test as people of African descent, you know, I want to get back to you.

I'll eventually get to the root of that comedy, but I want to ask you as someone who lived in South Africa what your perception of black Americans was and how it has changed over time living here now. Wow, that's interesting growing up in South Africa, my perception of black Americans was always like that. a perception that was created by movies and television and music and music played a big role in that, you know, I always saw these people who were just the coolest people you could imagine, it was everything from seeing guys on the neighborhood you even know the sitcom, Martin, you know if it was Tupac and Biggie, and you know and blow, you were seeing these, these people, these black people who existed in a way that I had never seen before, they seemed to command respect in their world beyond. just who they were, but also how they made the people around them feel and look, like there was a coldness associated with what they were doing, that was really powerful and I mean, that's one of the reasons it permeated South Africa.

I know I wasn't the only young black man growing up in South Africa who identified with this thing that you like that's that's a part of me I can be that guy you know I can be that guy that drives the Benz I can be that guy you know? living in a mansion I can be that guy who lives a high life wearing gold chains like that, it was an aspiration, you know, it was an aspiration beyond the circumstances that people found themselves in and that was my identity, it was limited and was stereotypical of the 1x experience and that's all I knew and that was all I needed to know in a way and what the perception of black Americans was in terms of, I guess, their connection to Africa because I remember the first time I went To Africa.

I was in South Africa a couple of years ago and when I arrived I guess I literally wanted to kiss the ground like everyone else in the diaspora. It's like you go to Africa and it's like, oh, I'm home, you know, it feels like that, but you know. Quickly when I went with her when people saw me, I quickly realized that they knew I was not from the continents, interestingly, as far as the authenticity of black people in Africa. I mean, what did you do with that? I guess well, I think the mistake that I made early on and was always forced to make because I didn't have direct information was that I didn't understand why black Americans would aspire to go to Africa.

I didn't understand why black Americans were like me, the country. I have to get out there. You know, I didn't understand that I was like what, but why? So you guys are living an amazing life. They were in the woods and driving G trucks. Why? Would you want to come here? Honestly, I don't understand it. In many ways. I know I'm not the only African. I found it funny. I thought, "This is funny because you don't realize how many black Americans." They have been robbed of a place they believe is their home and the culture and history that you take for granted.

You know I come from a place where I can recite my family's history without batting an eyelid. I can tell you about my ancestors. I can tell you about my culture, I can tell you why I do certain things because of the blood inside me, you know, and that's something you never think about. I never thought about that, so every time we heard that, you know. My friends and I were listening to black Americans say they've come and they were like oh man I'm going to kiss the ground I'm home baby I'm home and you would say this is the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life and then you understand underneath that grace the pain that comes with it and then you understand why people want to connect with history because that history has been stolen from them, you know, and as you learn and, as you read the history of slavery, the United States and the slave trade as a whole, you realize how much you took for granted something that you didn't even think was a privilege and that is knowing your history.

I want to talk. a little bit about that approach to comedy and talking about it being a very divisive time to say the least, especially because I'm kind of a racial issues guy, talking about humor and how you use that to maybe balance it out. the playing field kind of good, it's trial and error, you know, comedy is one of those formats where it's all about context, you know, I always tell people I'm making a joke, it's always limited to the relationship you have with your audience. It doesn't matter if you are a comedian or just someone telling a joke to your friend, the connection and the context in which you have the relationship is what provides all the context in which you can say something to a friend of yours that, if the people would listen to you, you would do it.

I know he would be horrified, but your friend maybe shares the context with you and that also grows with an audience. You know, if you have an audience that grows with you in comedy clubs and starts doing shows with you, you know, like I had in the South. Africa, you start to develop a relationship, you know, going back to your previous question, is what happened to me in the United States when I first came to the United States, the rooms where they gave me the most time and the rooms where I was most welcome were the urban venues, and that's where you know I'd be doing shows like chocolate ice cream in LA, you know I'd go out and perform, you know, in Baltimore I'll do predominantly black shows, etc.

I found that my relationship with the audience was contextualized by my perception of African Americans and their perception of Africa and I played within that world and I played with those stereotypes by breaking them by turning them on their head, you know, you know, twisting them. about the mistake I made and the only thing I regret over time was that I took for granted how that comedy could be used against black people in America, you know, because I wrote all my comedy with black rules, but do you think if It's different if saying it versus if Chris Rock says it since he's from the United States is something like if a white man made a black joke, can't they do that?

Know? Do you think it's different? What do I think it is? It's definitely different if Chris Rock makes a joke if I make a joke and for a white comedian to make a joke, it's different to varying degrees, which I do know is regardless and this is because I talk to too many comedians who are my mentors and friends, people like Dave Chappelle. There is nothing more painful than seeing someone take your joke and use it in a way you didn't intend. You know, like me, he lived in a world where he really only had the references that I had and I would love to share them.

So you create this set in black rooms all over America and then you start getting opportunities to perform in mainstream rooms that are predominantly white and you're doing that material and you don't realize that the laughs are changing the laugh. By going from recognition to ridicule, you don't realize that you've almost given people a key to laugh at them instead of laughing with them, and that was a change that I later had to make in my comedy, where I said: "Okay, I'm trying to course correct and figure out what's going on here because it was something I didn't understand until it was almost too late and I thought, 'Okay, that's something.'" I promised myself tomyself that I would work harder to make sure that ever.

This happened again, you also talked about understanding where the story is coming from and how black people in America would really want to go back to Africa or would they want to know how to go back to the homeland and that kind of thing that you obviously know in South Africa very recently. . We have all had a very horrible problem with apartheid. Is there anything that you have learned about the horrible experience of not only black people who belong to minority groups? whether you know the Latino Native Americans and everything that you have learned about their history or their history in America that has even surprised you because of the level of horror and scrutiny and then the marginalizing things that people have to go through here.

Wow, is there anything that surprised me, you mean, is there anything that didn't surprise me? It's hard, especially when you read everything you know, a lot of American history is presented to you on the outside and in bits and pieces. You have ideas about this, but I won't lie to you. I didn't know it at all. I didn't understand the complexities and then you read it. Know. I remember one of the things that I guess surprised me and surprised me the most was. When you come from the African continent, when you are an immigrant, you are prone to believe that all you have to do is behave and then the world will treat you appropriately and I remember the first time I discovered that that is exactly what black people do in America.

I had tried it over and over again, that's why there was a movement of freedom fights by wearing suits, you know, that's why black men in America dressed so DAPA the way they did because they said : "I want to show them that I am acting accordingly." I'm being respectful and then I see how even that wasn't enough. You know, reading the stories, you know, whether it was MLK or whether it was reading stories from, you know, in Oklahoma, you know, reading all these stories, you realize. that it wasn't about what you were doing, but more about who you are, which was a scary thought, you know, because you always like to believe that there is something you can do to avoid getting killed. by a police officer to prevent you from suffering the evils that your parents or grandparents suffered.

You like to believe that everything is under your control and I think one of the most surprising discoveries for me was realizing how far that was from the truth about you. you know the horrible racial unrest allows you to reference let's talk a little bit about Donald Trump's America that you've talked about. I don't like to call it Donald Trump's United States. I think it's not the president, it's yes, it's the United States. with Donald Trump, well, stop, he's America and my next line was from something you said. I think in an interview with the LA Times you talked about Trump being really just an antagonist in American history, the way you dress and, in America, you often excuse them, oh that.

It was in the past, I was right a long time ago, South Africa, that excuse may not be so good because I mean, it's a more recent past, I mean, when I was there, people said we've only been on this line for twenty years. from the Democrats, do you think? There are some ways that Trump's presidency can be seen as a good thing for race and for Americans that expose types of divisions that people thought had simply disappeared in the past and then no longer existed. Well, I don't know if it's good. I think something good can come from it.

You know, that's how I've always lived my life. This is how my mother taught me to live it. She says we can't control what happens to us, but we can't control how we react. and so in many ways you say, okay, Trump is president, this is the reality that we're dealing with, this is the reality that the world is dealing with, because it's not just an American issue now that Donald Trump is president and in many ways has emboldened people who are racist all over America and what has happened and the good that can come from it in my opinion is the fact that conversations can no longer be masked Donald Trump is forcing people to elect Donald Trump is in many ways it's funny because you know the phrase was always used during the campaign, people said what would it take for people not to vote for Donald Trump, what would it take and I say, well, Donald Trump will show you what it takes, you know, he step by... step action by action he slowly tests people's resolve and you see people slowly saying actually wait is what I look like is that That's not me, that's not who I am and as frustrating as it may be for some, you know they go Well, why wouldn't you?

Why weren't you against him from the beginning? I am the eternal optimist, which will always be my bane and my gift, and that is what I am doing well, Donald Trump is the person who will push people to the point where they have to make a decision and it is sad because many people they will continue to fall on the side of bigotry, xenophobia and racism, but there will be many who, seeing Donald Trump for what he is, will choose to try and not be like that and not everyone can succeed, but I think some people would then say oh, no, I do not wish to associate myself with what is.

I didn't see myself as such, since you say you're the eternal optimist and obviously where you come from, you come from a background and an upbringing where you've dabbled in different races, cultures and kind of a bridge that divides any advice or any word of encouragement that you can give us an hour or about what this society is like. In the United States we can move forward to overcome many of these racial divisions. Wow, that's hard. The most important thing is that talking about it is not easy, but I know that it is one of the most powerful tools you have.

I say talk about it. I'm talking to predominantly white people in America. It's a scary conversation, but it's a conversation that needs to be had and that conversation is about race, that conversation is understanding, you know the very fabric of the country that you're living in. In those conversations you need to have them with your friends and family and it seems like it seems impossible, it seems like it's a mountain that can never be climbed, but I think we can make progress, I think As people, we can move a conversation forward, but the The key is to have that conversation and I think in many ways social media has done that.

I feel like younger people are more in touch with each other than ever before. ways we never saw each other as human beings, you know if it's black people being shot by the police in America or if it's a bomb exploding in Mogadishu and seeing the victims, if it's people in Syria who they suffer chemical attacks, you know vi is launching attacks against them, whether it's us seeing what's happening in Myanmar with angry people. I don't think many of those images would have filtered down to the generations before us in the same way that they may have been an exhibit in the The New York Times is an important article, but for the most part you realize that that would have happened unnoticed and now we are in a space where we can see ourselves like never before in many ways.

I said it feels like we're having the best time of my life because we now have the ability to see how bad things really are, which I know sounds like a paradox, but I feel like it's a hopeful place to be. Yes, I think the lens is there, but I always did. coming for my cynical thing they are people who look into the lens they are people who look and accept and try to understand well I think that people are looking at acceptance is something that I can't necessarily speak to, you know, I think that although there is a little change Little by little you know that there will always be people who ignore it, there will always be people who place blame around you, you know that you see it happen in all cases, it doesn't just happen to black people in the United States, where something happens and you know that things are going well. , why was he running?

Why was he wearing those clothes well? Did he really want it? And that is something that we have to eradicate in society: blaming the victims, but what we cannot deny is that access to those stories penetrates people's minds. There will always be those who resist, you know, I never think we will manage to catch everyone. I don't think society needs everyone to move forward. There will often be people who will be left behind and forced to come. The back of society and then there will be those people who are at the forefront. Most people, I think, are in the middle, but they are also moving forward and we have moved forward in society.

You know we have made progress, but not that. It doesn't mean that more progress doesn't need to be made and that's how we live and I think having access to that is better than not having access to it because these people have to do it somehow. deal with what's happening, whether you agree or disagree, you're not dealing with it, which is a space. I would rather be on one of the things that you mentioned, we have to talk, we have to have conversations, um, and when we post about this. events on Facebook I was looking where in the comments and there was a commenter saying oh, Trevor Noah is coming.

I gotta bet there must be a lot of protesting and burning, now they're like oh no, wait, I guess not and there's a feeling among conservatives that there's definitely a double standard, especially here on college campuses, when you've seen conservative speakers come in there. same, with a lot of people and commotion and all that. Do you think college campuses are too closed-minded in terms of bringing in diversity? variety of points of view when it comes to conservative liberals and all that Mattson, that's an interesting question because I haven't had personal experience with every college campus. I know it's a difficult balance to maintain, you know, because on the one hand we can't deny that. many conservative people have ventured into the world of extreme opinions when it suits them, you know that you will find establishment conservatives who have somehow tolerated or allied themselves with people who have extreme opinions, you know if it is Nazism or if it is genocide, when you hear these ideas and you think: how could you be on the same page as this person?

So I think what invariably happens is that there are a lot of people who are afraid and say we don't know. I don't know who the Nazi is or isn't right now, so let's protest all these voices. I do think so though, and maybe it's because I was a big fan of watching debates not only in South Africa but also in the United States. You also know, I would love to see Malcolm X on stage debating someone who wished they didn't exist as a human being. You know, I loved watching those debates where James Baldwin would dismantle an idea and take it apart piece by piece and and one thing that I always enjoyed about those debates was having the confidence in your ideas to compare them with ideas that you were completely against and, More importantly, you know that these ideas may have been against your existence, but I always enjoyed the power of a good debate, you know, I also think that people have to be careful because on some of these college campuses people are there specifically to troll and it's a difficult decision to make as a person in a school, do I let them talk? or me and I like it, but a lot of times they don't have, they don't have the numbers that you think they have, they rely on you to amplify their voice, does blocking them make them a thing?

The story becomes the blockade now. People want to see what was blocked, you know, it's the same way when I was a kid. I always wanted to see in porn magazines what was hidden behind the stars, so it's like you want to know what's hidden, what's behind the blur, now. I've created a cliffhanger, you know, and it's, it's, it's difficult. I'm not going to say it's not, because a lot of people say: How can I let you talk when what you're talking about is that I don't exist? At the same time, that is the gift and the curse of having a country where freedom of expression is so applauded.

I think we'll have to ask some viewers some questions soon, but that's just one more thing about college campuses, the idea. of safe spaces which is really being a big thing that people have been talking about lately, are spaces where people from marginalized groups can have a kind of safe environment on campus and all that, some schools like Northwestern University come out and They say: you know this. it's something that we support, so schools make that maybe the University of Chicago has been less enthusiastic about something like that, where do you fall into that and ask yourself this?

It just throws shade like we're like we just do that, it's like a turf war, someone gave me the microphone so I have to use it, but can you ask in the context of apartheid? Because I mean, one thing you wrote about in the book is that, in part, what I did was not allow white people to not. I see the ramifications of what's happening in Alex, what's happening in some of the municipalities and a Sometimes I wonder if we could have the same impact if we rely too much on safe spaces where there are people who might come from a small town where they are.

I've never met an Asian person, right, no person will ever interact with someone I'm, you always know, the brand in America.It fascinates me because, like the term safe spaces, it is often used to refer to spaces where ethnic minorities gather and I don't know, I feel like everyone has safe spaces. You know your safe space is how you define it. Conservatives also have safe spaces. They have conservative conferences. You know, gun owners at the NRA, that's a gun owners conference. are you ready, that's our safe space, they like you, you know, Fox viewers, that's their safe space, this is me, I don't know, I feel like I'm being tricked, I feel like there's something I'm missing here, but I'm coming, you you do that too. choosing we do it as people we say oh this is our group Chess Club it's a safe space in a way like all these things are our safe spaces it's just a group of people saying we have a shared identity we have a shared idea I want to talk about this like that tiki torch that's a safe space that's what they're doing that's essentially the same thing so I don't know if I agree with the people that say oh you and your safe space there, I like that I know a lot of people, everyone has a safe space, it's just that that term has now been used in a way where it's like, oh, it means that you're soft and you know that everyone does it, that everyone finds a group of people that they relate to and these are essentially clubs, that's what they are, so if you have a university and you find out that there's a group of African students, they're going to want to find an African club where they can have conversations where they don't need to be constantly translating, you know?

It will be the same for a Jewish school where they will say oh, this is our space where we can talk freely to each other and to anyone, we don't have to explain anything, we don't have to worry. about people taking anything out of context and I think that's what it is, although I think the brand has been used successfully in a way that makes it seem like people are being soft on wanting to engage in conversations where they don't need to translate into a stranger who may be listening to them and I don't know, I don't think they believe it, it's very well said, I think we need to get in, so we had different college students send in videos, video questions and we got a ton of them.

We've narrowed it down to about five of them, so we'll reproduce them here and hopefully you'll have some good answers for them, so can we release the first one if the technology works? Hi Trevor, my name is Katie and I'm a senior at Bucknell University, comedy is obviously a big part of what you do and who you are and I know a lot of mediums are hesitant to do shows on campus these days. colleges because they believe they are becoming too politically correct and intolerant and I was wondering what you think about this in an effort to make us more tolerant, our college campuses are becoming intolerant of some forms of comedy.

Thanks, that's an interesting question. You know, when it comes to college campuses, sometimes I think that the younger generation is There will always be, or always should be, something that forces progress or forces progressivism and people don't even realize it's happening, but it's happening. I would say that people in the South, even in the United States, who can be considered staunch conservatives. If they went back 60 or 80 years, they would find out that you know what I mean, they were like liberals, you know what I mean, they would be considered liberal by those standards when I think about comedy a lot of times when people turn to the PC culture. or those ideas, I think what people are just saying is that we've come to a place where we've realized the power of words.

We've come to a place where we've realized that people don't have to do it. "I accept that we continue to be marginalized and we have to take more responsibility for what we say now. Is there an overcorrection? Sometimes yes, but for the most part I know, even as a comedian, I have had to learn these ideas. I didn't. I don't always know how to do it or what to do with it. You know, I've lived in a world where there was a time when I thought fat jokes were really funny. You know? Because I come from a country where being overweight was.

No. It was an epidemic, it was not a disease in many ways like it is in the United States, so I report differently all these ideas that I find evolve over time and that's why I still perform on college campuses. I still share my point of view, some My ideas may be avant-garde, but I don't think it's something we should avoid. I think corrections always need to be made. You know, there are some comedians who are very old now and you say, Well, you can't. You can't say that, you know. they'll say things that are crazy racist and you'd be like, hey man, you can't say that and then you'll find out that a younger generation of comedians will say something else, you know? about maybe transgender people we say, hey man, you can't say that and I feel like every generation recalibrates what society accepts or doesn't accept and that's a good thing, so we're in a period where that's happening again III Don't believe which is a negative thing, in fact, I enjoy it, you know, I see comedians who have successfully navigated from generation to generation and I think that's why they've continued to be so successful.

You know people like Chris Rock we mentioned before. He's been doing it since I was a little kid and he's still one of the best in the world doing it, so it's clear that there are some comedians who know how to move with the times instead of saying no, that's just how I am. I have always thought and this is how I will always think. Can we move on to the second question please? And my question is in this political climate. Classroom

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ions can often be divisive. What do you think is the best way to have an impactful and effective conversation about your peers?

What's the best way to have an impactful conversation among your colleagues? I think hitting works very well. I really don't think so, please don't do that. Trevor tells punching jokes. I think we can always start from a place of empathy, one of the hardest things to do is get people in

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ion or debates to operate from the point of view that the person you're talking to is a human being. We often forget that it's difficult because sometimes the person you're talking to doesn't think you're a human being and that's why I find that in a debate what really helps is to think to yourself what if I'm wrong?

Just for a moment think to yourself what if I'm wrong? There are many times when you have been wrong there are times when you are wrong you have the wrong information you have been educated incorrectly you have the wrong idea of ​​what the world is or how it works and when I get into a debate or when I am trying to convince someone of something and include it as my first port of call. I'm going to ask what happens if I'm wrong because this person thinks he's right. I think I'm right. The things I want to say with this person remain the same.

I think they're idiots, so something has to come from somewhere, so I say, "Okay, if I'm wrong, then that person is right, this is their point of view and then I go, let me take that point of view and See if". I can dissect it from that side instead of just spitting out my Dogma consistently, you constantly go, I don't go, this is the only truth I say, well, let me take your truth then and poke holes in it and you. You will come to find that when you do that you will not only understand the person you are talking to a little more, but you will also be able to converse with them in a way that they can understand a little more and you will not always win. and sometimes I find that debates are not about changing the person you are debating with, debate is often so that the people who are looking at the audience are the ones who choose between the ideas that are presented to them so that in that room of sorts you can't convince the person you're talking to, but someone listening may get carried away because they see that your point of view or the ideas you're sharing are superior or preferable to them.

Does it seem like this happens every day? I think what people point out the most through the Tommy'll area and having her on the show and this whole point of view of hers is very different: Do you find yourself involved on that level and putting your place in yourself in her way? of thinking and what his thing is, I always like it, I always like it because, otherwise, how do you know that your ideas are good if you don't try them? You know I don't want to live in a world where I believe everything I believe because I have been told so and I myself reinforce that idea.

I like to challenge my ideas. I like to know why I believe what I believe. You know, because every idea we have didn't come from our mind, it came from the world. In some ways, you know, very few ideas come completely from the genius inside our own minds, so what I like to do is have someone who can test my points to force me to galvanize my ideas and, in doing so, So I can ask them Can I, can I bring you an idea, you know, I remember when Tommy came on the show, that was one of the key questions that came up because of the conversation that we were having and it was, you know?

The common talking point among conservatives was that blacks should not protest. I didn't boo and then honestly the moment I lost the question I said, "Okay, when, when is the right time to protest" and I still haven't gotten that response from someone like I really don't, I haven't listened to No conservative person is saying that this is when it's acceptable for black people to protest, so I think at those times you wouldn't have gotten to that because there hasn't been anyone challenging their views, let's move on to question three please, even though Of all the chaos in our country regarding fake news and widespread media angst, what a vice it is for college students trying to enter the field.

Oh, what driving advice for students trying to get into the field. I think we're living in a time now where more than ever there's a power that you have, you know, if you're trying to get into journalism, that you've never had before, you know there are journalists. Everywhere in this room, everyone who has a phone has become a journalist, everyone who has a Twitter account has become a journalist in many ways. You have the power to not only gain information but also share it with the world around you, so I would say. To all those people who are entering the field I say that this is a moment we are living in and I hope this does not become the norm.

They know they see countries all over Africa, countries like Russia, for example, where the government has found the device. they need to keep perpetuating the idea that there is nothing real, but there is real, there are facts that you know the facts still exist, so if you are entering the field of journalism, just believe in that, keep highlighting those facts because at least At the end of the day, they are real, they will come to your aid to share a story and sometimes it is frustrating because they may not come to fruition when you would like them to, but a fact is a fact and at the end of the day.

Nowadays, that fact cannot change, so for anyone who is in journalism, I said so be it, this is, if anything, this is just the beginning, you know, maybe the era of fake news , coined by the president who invented that word, but I do. I think this is the best time to get involved in this because people are listening. Are you a journalist? Do you consider yourself one? No, no, I trust the work of journalists, yes, that's what I do. You know, I give my opinions on what's happening. in the news but without journalists I couldn't do what I do.

I need to be informed too, and you know, if it weren't for the journalists, who would go out and find the stories on the ground, everything from you know what's happening in the North. From Korea to Niger, to California and the Harvey Weinstein scandal. I wouldn't know what I know and that is the joy of living in a country where you have a free press. You have access to information and knowledge. Can we move on to the next question? Please, my question. for you it's how being born in another country affected your credibility in the United States how being born in another country affected my credibility?

I think it's a double edged sword that I found as most things in life are a gift and a curse to you. I know, on the one hand, people will tell me that you're not from here, why are you commenting? Why do you have an opinion? Why do you have an idea? I often tell people I'm going. I'm still a human being, you know? They still live in the world many of these ideas that we are dealing with are not specifically American, they are their ideas and problems that society has to deal with. It's also painful for me to realize how many problems that Americans face and South Africans face and had to deal with during apartheid, you know, so when I look at that, I understand that some people would think that we shouldn't listen to you because you're not from here, generally we shouldn't care about your opinion and I understand that.

From my point of view, at the same time, I maintain that some of the greatest help that came in the world, as in the case of South Africa, came from the world in which we hadAmericans who spoke for us in South Africa and we didn't say why I care, you're not from here, you know, the same thing happened in the UK. There were some people. There are always people who worry about something that doesn't involve them and I've always thought that this is how the world should be more like one of the things I hope to use to my advantage is not being from here because then I don't take anything at face value. letter.

I ask the questions, you know, I've realized that I'm an idiot and I enjoy, yes, I enjoy that mantle because when you're an idiot and when you accept it by the way, it's a very scary thing to accept, but when you accept yourself, you start to enjoy it. life because you wonder, you are not. afraid of being an idiot because you know you're one, so you just ask why, why, and then you'll be surprised how many people don't actually know the answer that you know, and that's all I intend to do because I don't understand, I don't.

I don't understand the electoral college, so I would ask that question to someone who says, "Well, this is how it works." I say why and the why why why and then you get your way like well, okay, slavery and no, you know, just ask the why over and over again it takes you to a place where a lot of times I'm not alone. I am the one who discovers this information, but it can also be my friends or my colleagues in the United States. I actually don't know why and no one has ever asked me. Why and now we can delve into that why and that's something I choose to use to my advantage, so some people may think that affects my credibility, some people may think it doesn't.

I would like to go. I do not do it. I don't need to be credible or not and I'm giving you an opinion, you know, I'm giving you an opinion and I'm sharing facts with you, you know, I work on a show where I have a fact team. ladies, you know, and some of the best in the world, and they control me and say you can't say this is the fact and I will fight it, but it is a fact, so I have to say it and the best. Comedy is based on truth and I'm trying to make the best comedy possible so that I will always be subject to the truth and that's the only credibility I feel I need, thank you.

I think we have one more question to ask. I faced a lot of comments and they were thoughts about her appearance or things she said, so I guess my question is how do you do it, what are your self-help tools and how do you handle the constant negativity you get in the media? platform wait i have constant negativity what time did she read it she's reading the conservative um you know what i've learned it's as crazy as it sounds most of it isn't real I know it's not a popular stance or views here but I just found out that most of this is not real.

You can choose most of what you accept in your world. You know that I have a good friend and a very wise man named Joseph Opio, who always tells me that he. He says: why do you care about this world? So a random person will tweet you anyway and now you care, why do you care? Because the person tweeted at me and said yes, but if that person didn't tweet at you, what would he do? change in your life you know it is an idea that you know and there are not many ideas that you can escape from in the world there are some things that are happening to you physically, we cannot deny it, but there are many things that are also an idea of ​​what It's happening to you and you know that as much as we can't control what's happening to us, we can't control how we react and maybe we've been raised to believe that we can't, but we can, you can choose. many times how to react you can choose not to read three dimensions online you can choose not to interact with trolls you can choose not to get dragged into a conversation that you know will end in trolls you know you can choose many of these things, even if you think you can't, some people say that I don't have the luxury of choosing, yes I understand that, but you're still making a decision, so I've learned that I can focus my energy on moving an idea forward I've learned that I will focus my energy on learning and trying to be a part of something to be positive, I have learned that obviously people will not like you and that is what you must accept.

In life there are people who do not like you, they will not like you because you stand for something, if everyone likes you, then you are not doing nothing, so for me it comes with the territory, love me or hate me, but don't be indifferent. and that's the way I live my life and they say and what do you say about knowing how you respond to where I think people forget there was a time when Twitter didn't exist so it's like that and I know it's hard especially when you're young like this thing is it's it's it's now it's our world you know it's us we feel like we can't get rid of it it's become this vise but we can we can there are times when you can completely tune out just imagine your battery dies when You want to escape, just be like you're dead and then that's it and then you say oh look, look, look what better, take a break for a weekend, just leave everything you know, read the news you need. read stay up to date with what you need to stay up to date stay away from conversations when you want to get away from them and you will be surprised to find that you can focus on the positivity in your world and that will give you the energy to deal with negativity when you choose to do the okay and I think we'll be done here soon, but I have one more question for you from me.

You are a comedian. You're a very funny guy. Are there any jokes about race that you might know? Tell us that could get you in trouble on Twitter tomorrow, huh? Is there a joke? I could tell you that a white man, a black man, walks into a bar and I never know which one will get you in trouble. That's the strange thing. The world would like to be able to tell you one that would do it and I don't like it. I don't have anything like that. I don't have that kind of jokes. I tell stories.

In any case, I share anecdotes. I share ideas. Yes, I don't have any. I'm ashamed to say that I don't have any that I can get into. problems on Twitter, if I have one, I'll tweet it later and then you tell me how it goes, they'll eat the tweet, yes, yes, you retweet. and then we see what happens, we let the outrage build up overnight and we'll figure it out tomorrow Trevor, thank you so much for your time and thank you so much, thank you for having me and I want to thank you all for coming.

This has been a great conversation again, please continue the conversation as all of our college students go to email on campus at nytimes.com tell your stories about race, how you've identified, and college campuses and we thank everyone here for being here, we thank everyone for watching online and you know, please continue the conversation and for those of us here in the room, we'll do a little Q&A with just myself afterwards, so if you want to stay, feel free and once again, let's leave it for Trevor Noah thank you very much Trevor thank you all