Red carpet diplomacy: What's Macron message for China's Xi? • FRANCE 24 English

Can you still send strong

message

s when you've rolled out the red

carpet

and chilled the champagne for a state dinner? China's xiin ping fueled him in the French capital during his first visit to Europe since 2019, this despite trade tensions, spy scandals and insistence that he isolate Vladimir Putin over Russia's invasion of Ukraine how much he has changed from a year ago, even as Emanuel Mcon was accused of missing

message

s on human rights and Taiwan when he traveled to Beijing the last time Mechol hosted Shei, he invited then-German Chancellor Angela Merkel to join the talks along with the European Commission present this time Ursa underl in Paris, but no Olaf Schultz will ask why and whether that strengthens or weakens the negotiating position of France and the European Union and then, of course, there are the messages that Xiin Ping particularly wants to convey.

With his itinerary after France, the Chinese president travels to Hungary, whose lenient stances toward Beijing have been rewarded with a large electric vehicle. Factory and Serbia agreement on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the mistaken NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during the Kosovo war. This is all. part of the tough negotiation or a sign that China is ready to confront all the participants today in the France 24 debate we are talking about the cool message for Xi Jinping we are also joined by senior journalist from state television cgtn Wang Guan member of the Beijing Conference based at the T Institute I think TCH I pronounced it well very well very well okay ta fantastic okay first trip to Paris you say first time in France okay, welcome, welcome and we'll talk about

what

's in the agenda while we are in France uh like Well, with the centrist friend, Senator Olivier Kadik, thank you for being with us.

Welcome. Juliana Bush is a research analyst at the business and policy consultancy Rodium Group. Is it a consultancy or a group of experts? What would a research provider be like? A research provider. Thank you very much for being with us. Entrepreneur and commentator Yakob Hestler is also with us. How are you? Very good. Your reactions to the f24 hash debate. How the world has changed since Xiin Ping's last trip to France. What has been since the Covid pandemic war in Ukraine? A subsidy race. As the planet moves away from fossil fuels, Jenny Shin takes a look: It's the first stop on Chi Jinping's trip to Europe seeking to rebuild relations at a time of tensions between Beijing and the bloc, welcomed by the French president, Emanuel Macron, and accompanied by the head of the EU Commission, Ursa Felion.

The Chinese president emphasized the importance of the strategic partnership between his country and the EU as two important forces in the world. China and the EU must remain partners. Adhere to dialogue and cooperation. Deepen strategic communicative communication. Improve strategic mutual trust. Build strategic consensus and carry out strategic coordination. In order to promote the stable and sound development of China-EU relations and constantly make new contributions to world peace and development, the hot topic of the trilateral meeting, security and war in Ukraine, the two leaders EU officials pressured her to use China's influence to steer Russia toward DS escalation and an eventual halt to its invasion just hours after President Vladimir Putin ordered nuclear weapons exercises in response to

what

he called threats from the West.

We are counting on China to use all of its influence over Russia to end Russia's war of aggression against the president of Ukraine. Shei has played an important role in reducing Russia's irresponsible nuclear threats and I am confident that the President will continue to do so. We have also discussed China's commitment not to provide any lethal equipment to Russia, another top priority in the talks. The EU trade deficit. With China, which amounted to 291 billion euros last year, pressuring it to accept fair global trade rules, Felion said the bloc would not back down from taking tough measures to protect its economy, some member countries reject the measures of IT fortat since China is a key economic partner among them are Serbia and Hungary, the other two countries that the president must visit after France, Jakob hler, just a few weeks ago, the German chancellor was in China, we have just read statements to the press, there were no questions from the journalists, um it is.

This is different from the tone used by the French President here in Paris and that taken with the German Chancellor in Beijing. Well, I think that's because the two countries may not want exactly the same thing and there's a difference in the tone you're saying. I think there is a difference in tone, but that is because there is a difference in what they want and I think that is because and that is why I think this visit is important because we are going to confront the interests of individual countries versus the Unity of Europe versus what Macron has called. autonomy of Europe Visa for both China and the US and I think Germany is more committed to the EV St, that's why Ula feline was there and not Schultz because it would have blurred the message that the underlying message I think maau wanted to send, which en We are convinced that we do not want a trade war, but we need concessions on EVS, whereas the Germans would probably have been more lenient or would have been more lenient given the way Schulz reacted during his visit, okay, but we heard in that statement to the French president. saying that the European Union is an open market we are sovereign our policies are not governed by any external power effectively telling your host who is sitting next to you uh that uh we are not the United States that blurs the lines as much as what yakob described with the German Chancellor a few weeks ago um EU is U we say um is united uh with diversity we can have a different approach uh comes from very far away and um when we look at Germany with its strategy, they depended on Russia with In the energy field, they depend on China to their industry and depend on us with their army and their defense.

We have a different approach and is it so different because we heard you say thank you for helping with the opening this year, in an electric battery factory in the north of France, there was a long list of the 18 deals that were closed and Taiwan invested the most in a single agreement than China, so why is Emanuel M for 20 years reading this long list of everyone? the different economic areas in which there is an agreement, the issue here is that we have different issues. First of all, we understand Mr. Kishin Ping's strategy of trying to create difficult times within the EU.

It's not the first time he's done it. at a different time, so the EU had to react to the deficit, with trade, we have to solve some important problems there, but we also have geopolitical problems and we understand that China also wants to create a difference between us and the EU, so try playing a different game. What Emanuel Macron has in mind is to also try to explain that too much support for Russia is directly harming the EU and it is very clear that our position is very clear and now kishin ping will go after Hungary to Serbia Serbia wants to join the EU kishin ping will certainly say to Mr.

V vuich, the president of Serbia, look, China can help you better than the EU because it takes time For you to go to the EU, we understand that we have to see what Xinping wants to achieve, but within the EU we will have elections and I am sure that with the new Parliament they will have to face answers to give. China, but I don't think we will go back to the situation we were in when Angela Mercur's time came. Wan, then, it is true that after France went to Hungary and Serbia, probably some of the most pro-Russian countries on this continent that sends a good message, first of all I want to respond to what the senator just mentioned, alluding to the fact that China is driving a wedge between the EU and the United States.

I don't see it that way, I mean France for example, it had its own strategic autonomy from the early days, when you think about General Charles' agreement, he decided, almost on his own, to recognize the People's Republic, not the regime dissident minority that is closely associated with Washington at the time, as China's only government that was a ship. decision and that was at the height of the Cold War and it was a French decision, of course, so we have been looking at, therefore, the reason for the state visit: it is the 60th anniversary to commemorate and celebrate this friendship that really , you know, it's grassroots driven. that's multifaceted if you think about business education, how many French students study Chinese here and vice versa, business bonds, eh, we're not really trying to drive a wedge between the US and the EU, there are differences that we easily recognize between the two parties, which I respect and we want to be strong partners with all countries when it comes to Ukraine, so both sides called for an Olympic truce which is quite easy for the entire planet H and we heard Xi Jinping use the standard language that calls what There was a crisis going on in Ukraine, of course, it's not a crisis, it's a war, why don't you just say it's a war?

We need to look at the historical context of what happened. You know, China, of course, has been blamed for having this. Ambiguous attitudes on the Ukraine issue, but China has been very clear: it's like you have to look at the yin and the yen. You have to take into account, take note of the considerations from all sides. NATO expanded about seven times in uh, in light of the fall of the former Soviet Union, uh, it's absolutely necessary, it was necessary and of course what's happening in Ukraine is unacceptable. President, she sent her main envoy to the region doing shadow

diplomacy

. uh, we trade very well with Ukraine, uh, China-Ukraine trade, so why not call it war?

What it is, it's a war, well, what happened was a war and China did not tolerate wars, whether in Russia, whether in Ukraine, whether in the former Yugoslavia, you know, when NATO. We bomb our embassies or whether in the United States, you know, those wars launched by the United States against the Central American states, as things are, but we are saying that there are historical contacts and concerns on the part of Russia and there are grievances on the part of Russia. from Ukraine Juliana Bush, regarding the issue of Ukraine, is this going to change the situation in this whole visit of Xi Jinping to Paris, especially when he will go together with Hungary and Serbia?

Yes, exactly, I don't think so, unfortunately, as you rightly mentioned. the language used is still that of crisis rather than war, so I don't think we'll see any really meaningful engagement from S ping on the Russia issue, I think when we look at the two main objectives of this visit. From Mol's perspective, the first was to get China to reduce its support for the Russian war effort and, second, to get China to make some meaningful commitment on trade and, more globally, on the issue of economic security. I think those are the two areas where China is going to be reluctant to make concessions reluctant to make concessions we are reading nuclear threats Wang Guan from Moscow just today says they are going to use tactical nuclear weapons in military exercises Beijing just stay out of it or there will be some

diplomacy

silent about it.

He believes that President XI has been talking to President Putin on many occasions and China has really been advocating for peace and I think what Moscow has illustrated is deterrence. I know I don't think Russia would go that far using those nuclear weapons, but I think the United States, our American friends in Washington know a thing or two about deterrence, actually know better in the sense that you have to have nuclear weapons. and his arsenal of weapons may be so strong that it is not necessary to use it, but I think there is a problem when we look at this debate and I think we need to take a step back and that is that now we can enter the debate of values ​​or not, but I think that If we take a step back and go to the level of what I would say, diplomacy or the interests of the state, I think there is a and I think you mentioned it, it is very clear the The more Russia persists, the more the conflict or war persists , whatever you want to call it, between Russia and Ukraine, more Europeans will feel the need for NATO to protect them, and that inevitably means that the strategic alignment of Europe and the United States will be strengthened rather than loosened at the moment, the US.

It is growing, getting closer to Europe, yes, exactly, and the more you push, the more you will support Russia or the longer the conflict will last, whether you support it or not, the longer it lasts, the more Europe will feel its need to be closer. aligned with us and that contradicts another important idea that I think is the goal of non-Western powers, that is, to remake the global system in a slightly different way, which we as Western countries may not like because it is not the system we have. I have imagined it, but it is very clear that this is happening inright now, so I think it's about the influence between how much support there is, what the Europeans want more and how autonomous the Europeans can be, whether it's the visit to Hungary or Serbia, I would say.

For me it is more symbolic, it is not so much at the center of the debate. I think we had Jakob Hesler here today talking about how there are competing values, as well as competing economic interests, how to defend those competing value systems while still doing business. of an old chestnut whenever we have discussions about China, one of the main stays of any Chinese president's visit is the issue of how to address human rights, as evidenced by this empty banner by activists on Sunday for motorists on the highway Paris peripheral ring road, uh, free Tibet. He says that last week the president in exile of Tibet crossed paths with Emanuel McAn during a metal decoration ceremony for the honorary leader at the presidential palace.

Penat Sering had been invited by the former French senator, it is an honor, before asking him about your specific case, Olivier Kadik, it's just a coincidence, so was maon ambushed or was it something planned by the presidential palace? The entire president knew it and also Franu Wu, who is Taiwan's ambassador to France and who has just been appointed vice minister of Foreign Affairs in Taiwan, as he announced yesterday afternoon on French television, we knew it and the president knew it . that I think it is important to show that we have reality some people try to hide the reality but there is a reality in Tibet there is a reality in singan with weos um and there is a reality in Hong Kong in the At this moment, emu M's message is correct , should he publicly say talk about the weor, talk about Tibet, talk about Taiwan when he is sitting next to Xi Jinping again in this format where there are no questions from the press or it is done the way he did it, which is?

I will see the others before and after, but not during the visit, yes. I think it made sense to do it this way. France is a free and independent country, so I think the prison can find whoever it wants. he should address the topic himself if it came from him, he knew he had to give the legion donor to Andre Gatan and Andre invited the guest and I remember seeing the information about the meeting where he got a photo. When the gentleman, when he was president, was with the Dal Lama before becoming president, I think it was an important discussion, but the French president put the value of democracy above the State.

Why do you agree with that? Juliana Bush is the one who did. Emanuel mcon uses the right message, yes absolutely, I think what's interesting is that when we compare it, for example, to Schultz's visits a few weeks ago, I think Germany was willing to make a lot more concessions on some of the symbolism that They perceive, yes, but that's because he went to China if Emanuel mcon a year ago when he was in China he was wrong about what would happen if there was a war with Taiwan. Remember this is true, but in one year we have seen a big change, I think.

Well, actually, in the last six months we've seen a big shift in mcon's stance in a way, you know, willing to be a little bit more brazen in the way that it counters China's lines and interests, like receiving to the Tibetan envoy, similarly. Right now, France is participating in the Batan exercises, joining the US and Philippine Navies, which is an extremely sore point for China, so I think this is a change in Macon's stance towards China and of course inviting Funer today to counter China. more forcefully in economic practices is again to show a stronger stance vadik um there is your personal case because you H H there were some legislators 116 of them from 15 nations, including France, seven of them French, including you, you received a phone call from the FBI saying that you had been hacked uh I'm a member of the IAC, the interparliamentary alliance um about China and uh we were all attacked uh in 2021 um because the Minister of Justice made an accusation at the end of March, we found out that we were attacked uh we had a attack, what does that mean?, uh, we received, um, we were all targeted by a cyber attack, we all received an email with a virus inside to collect information and it was a progressive attack, uh, the FBI did the investigation for two years and then the Minister of Justice started legal action, we found out that in fact from the FB di ipac knew that the members had been attacked, they gave me my name and asked me if I was on the list and the FBI answered yes, the problem we have is that the FBI informed our service two years ago and I am in charge of cybersecurity and cyber defense in the French Senate, so we had a lot of problems, but the reason why it was not informed we were not informed as members of parliament, but this is a why we weren't sorry, why you weren't.

I don't know yet, but we will start our own process in the Senate, so I announced it during the press. conference today uh this is an act of war against us an act of war is an act of war an act of cyber warfare is an act of war uh it's very clear if you look at the definition of an act of war and um this is not uh , the first time we faced that because when we look at the red

carpet

but Bey the carpet uh the story is not the same so now we face a massive attack on Cyber ​​um we have to make our own process, we will go to the government we will try to understand we will have to listen to the services to understand why they did not inform me.

I'm in charge every year. I get uh French Ani and sgsn and about the situation in Cyber ​​uh. It's a big surprise. I was not informed that we will not be giving the gift to Mr. C as to why you are and why you are so short on China just to make this clear because it is from uh it is documented. uh, from the AP 31 Group that is connected with uh, with China, with China's intelligence and uh, for two years, in fact, we already had information in 20 21 about AP 31, but we did not know that we were a target, but Now the The question is how we will react, uh, because the big problem is how we will react, we have to know that this is safe, and we have to prepare it properly, but it has to be massive, what does that mean?

Massive, we have to do it. uh to look at the way we were attacked, we see a Chinese cyber wall and this cyber wall being Chinese, they send their attack, their capacity is huge, greater than ours and, uh, we don't use the same tool because democracy doesn't it allows us to use some tools, so we have to see the way it works and we have to review our strategy, we have to review the way we react, it has to be done together Europe, us, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, all the Countries objective, we have to think together and it will be done during the Paris Cyber ​​Summit, it will be on June 4.

On that day I will announce a new strategy that we have to develop to respond to such attacks. Guan, uh, it's not fair. We fight about the fact that countries spy on each other that is what has always happened but it is not a fair fight because it is not the same value system says the senator um that we are more open than they are in China and other authoritarian countries Since then, I lived in the United States for eight years, which calls itself the freest country in the world, the leader of the free world, but guess what Edward Snowden is and all those prism schemes and all those schemes that spied on people? as? of Angela Merkel, the great leader of Germany and Europe for many years, her personal cell phones and of course countless programs at Tina University China Telecom, which are civil educational and corporate institutions, so I really want to say that the United States has been the world's leader in espionage.

That being said, I am sorry for what has been described. It would be for all those who are going through such circumstances. I mean, there are differences between China and France and I think the beauty of a summit like that. It is the Chinese leader and the French leader who can talk and manage those differences. We saw Yakob Hessler that, um, there are a couple of spy scandals that broke out in Germany and they broke out right after Olaf Schultz had been in China, we don't know. and I think we have to accept that some of the things we don't know.

I think the much bigger spy scandals in Germany involved cash payments to parliaments by far-right candidates for the IFD European elections. For me, I think there's a there's a line between wanting to know which obviously we have to do everything we can have the right strategy to defend basically to make sure that no one spies on us at least successfully they always will they always will I think that this is how the world works, the other thing is to use an influence in the elections, to pay money to the candidates, to support the candidates, that is completely different, it is a very different story, from my personal point of view, and I think That's where we've seen the most activity so far, I think. from Russia, I don't remember, but that's because I'm not an expert in the field, but I don't remember China directly influencing any type of politician by paying money or making use of direct tools, but maybe I'm wrong.

It's that right, I mean, but there is a difference between China and Russia in this. I'm not sure there is. I mean, I'm not willing to comment on whether there is a difference between China and Russia on this because I'm not familiar with the details, but about the spy scandal, I mean, it's not just something that concerns Germany, but it's something that was more widespread last week, there were arrests in Germany, yes, but also in the United Kingdom and in Brussels, regarding a German parliamentarian. assistant and I think it just indicates a growing concern within Europe about possible political interference from China and I think what's really interesting is the timing of all of those arrests occurring within a week and within that same week.

We also saw the EU take a lot of actions against Chinese companies or Chinese practices, so I'm talking, for example, about Competition Commissioner Margara Vestager, who was in the US giving a speech in which she announced a new round. Following an investigation into foreign subsidies to Chinese wind turbine suppliers, the EU made its first use of its international procurement instrument to target Chinese medical sector devices, after which we saw a raid on NCH, which is a Chinese security equipment company, um everyone. That points to the fact that different parts of the commission, because all of these instruments are actually from different types of general directorates of the commission, are becoming very active in China and a little more confrontational and I think that's an interesting thing. . it's time for that and therefore if we follow Yakob Lesser's Uhler logic at the beginning of this conversation about how Olaf Schultz can play good cop for German business industries while the country's former Defense Minister, who He is running for a second term as president. of the European commission plays the role of bad cop the EU could announce tariffs on Chinese imports in the coming weeks The URS underlines in Paris this Monday in that three-way meeting with the presidents of China and France that the world cannot absorb the surplus production from China, which is why I have encouraged the Chinese government to address these excessive structural capacities at the same time that we will coordinate closely with the G7 and Emer countries in economies that are also increasingly affected by China's market distortions, so useful bad guy, do you agree with what Yakob said earlier and what is his reaction when he heard the Chinese president say that this idea of ​​excessive capacity on China's part is a fiction.

I mean, I think the issue of overcapacity is extremely complicated, from the perspective of economists, because it doesn't have a precise explanation. definition, so both parties will perhaps always talk to each other. I think the Chinese side will always point to the fact that, you know, they are an export-driven economy and there is nothing wrong with that because Germany is an export-driven economy and no one is threatening Germany with the same measures. Similarly, you know that their leadership in certain cleantech sectors is just a result of, you know, comparative advantage rather than subsidies, and they're launching, you know, affordable cleantech products. there, that is why they are fighting against deflationary inflationary pressures and allowing a fair and affordable agricultural transition, while for Europe the question is a little different and also existential: it is a question of whether you know that production is going to be displaced and it is related with A broader question about mass employment in Europe, but the irony of this is that the problem with that is not China, the problem is really the United States because the Europeans since John Kery was sent for climate, the Europeans have been doing exactly what the United States has wanted is to downplay fossil fuels and all those good things about the green transition, while the United States has tripled its fossil fuel production, it is the largestfossil fuel producer and it is the United States that is now threatening to have Delo subsidize its green transition, oh yes, largely, but That's my point, I think it's two debates.

I think there is a question about the revenue from the China market and the question of how many electric vehicles the European market can absorb, given the fact that I think the biggest problem is that nobody wants electric vehicles, that is the problem. Wan, when Ursula speaks underneath in that clip, are your boots shaking in the high halls of power in Beijing? I'm not sure about that, but what I do know is that when I was a Washington correspondent, the first story I received. I was covering when President Obama gave billions of dollars in subsidies to Cindra, a California-based solar company, if you remember that episode, so I think it's a myth that China is accused of producing excess capacity because Germany, like Juliana, said she exports about 80% of her France just closed its last solar panel manufacturing factory and the head of the company said we simply can't compete, they are selling below the market price and we can't. compete is because the Chinese product China can produce it faster and cheaper and they are flooding the market with subsidized products, that's what they say, but we have a good number of Volkswagen cars on the Chinese streets and there are a good number of laptops Microsoft and China did not complain that Kadik is reaching a critical point.

Are you waiting for the European Commission to draw its conclusions when it comes to calling it overcapacity? Call it illegal subsidies, look at the deficit we have, the trade deficit we have between the EU and China. There is a big problem. and we have to fix it we know it will have to be radical because we have waited too long so it will be the discussion for the next European Parliament this is for sure we expect a radical decision In this matter, a radical decision, but we heard Emanuel Macron talk about all trade ties , go ahead, student visas, both sides were happy to talk about everything, there is an interdependence there, that is real, yes, there is an interdependence, this is for sure because we.

Accept it to become dependent on China, but now we realize the price of these dependents and it is time to react. I have no problem with the fact that China cares about its own interests. Same for us, we have to do the same. We have our own interests and we have to protect them and today we analyze the balance I had in electronics when I started my business life in 82. Europe represented 30% of PCB production in the world. 5% and now the product I made in China and they say, oh, it's because the labor costs are too high and it was also the labor cost, but it was also environmental, uh, for our PCB production in France . they had to respect some regulation, uh, they did not have to respect this type of regulation in China, we had a problem of distortion of competition and I am very happy that today the lesson has been learned from the past and now let's say, okay, we cannot work the same way we did in the past, so we have this overcapacity, uh, problem that the president of China denies, let's listen to his messages when it comes to not just trade or Ukraine.

But only as far as the overall relationship is concerned, today's world has entered a new period of turbulence and change as two important forces in the world, China and the EU should remain Partners, adhere to dialogue and cooperation, deepen strategic communication enhance strategic mutual trust, build strategic consensus and carry out strategic coordination to promote the stable and sound development of China-EU relations and constantly make new contributions to world peace and development. there is, but maybe you could translate for us particularly the use of the word strategic so frequently in that clip, why does he use that word?

I think China thinks long term and plans long term for its own societies and for its relationships with its foreign partners. I mean, if you look at our efforts to eliminate poverty for 800 million dollars, open up, reform and receive foreign investment, that really demonstrated the consistency of China's long-term vision in this economic planning and economic policymaking in foreign policy. I think President war forging to form one against the other we have had that during the Cold War we have seen the consequences but if France does not have the European Union it is a great mismatch. What do you mean if it is just a bilateral relationship between France and China?

You need the firepower of the EU behind you, don't you? Yeah, but Europe or France, none of them want to be burdened by, you know, having to spend too much on their armies, I mean their livelihoods, uh, to take care of their, you know, renewable energy. It is necessary to produce as many, you know, I'm talking about economic firepower, not necessarily military. I mean, if France alone versus China is a mismatch. I mean, China has great relations with many countries. Germany is one of those that Schultz visited. twice in the last year and a half, how did you interpret that clip we just heard?

I mean, I think my fellow co-panelists just pointed out something very interesting, which is something that Beijing sees in the bilateral relationship with France. and it is often talked about in Chinese newspapers, it is about France as an important independent country. I think they like to see Macon's kind of transatlantic skepticism and this distance that Macon has put with the US and they think it could potentially be a shield against Well, the France commission could act as a shield within Europe so that the commission converge more deeply with the US agenda on China. However, I think that now that Maon invited Fundel to this visit it was clearly a message of European unity and a demonstration that France is embracing the European and commission agenda more strongly.

Does China view the European Union in a hostile way? in the same way that Russia sees her in a hostile way? No, I think we are two great civilizations. China respects France, Germany and European countries, but. What about the European Union? I'm talking about the European Union. Yes, yes, we respect the European Union as a political entity and that is why we have had trilateral summits this time and previously as well. I think China is. Actually, I'm not trying to lead to a wetch in any case, Trump was a bigger threat to the unity of Europe than China Juliana speaking about Mol's messages last year Xi Jinping added a personal touch to the state visit of the French president who invited M to Guangju the manufacturing megacity which happens to be where his father was a high official, this time the locals at the panin near the village where the French president vacationed as a child told the wind that they would be hosting the second leg, uh, you have seen an advanced detail of about 80 Chinese who showed up to a wrei in the last few weeks uh, these are the events on Tuesday, tell us, yakob Hessler, the photo session we will see on Tuesday, uh, near L at T, which is famous for cycling fans. because it's where you go on the tour to France, is that going to work in Macon's favor or is it going to be counterproductive, well, I think it will allow him to show his ability as a statesman and there are very famous photos of statesmen meeting other statesmen and I think in that sense he can act in his favor I'm not sure if it will change the underlying opinion about him both those who are for and against it is that it was a good idea the Pyrenees I think that as a gesture I think it is It is always better to have to reciprocate something because it's part of diplomacy, so unless you want to send the signal that you're trying to deteriorate the relationship, you're not going to do something personal when, when you were there, you backed off on something personal.

I think so. It seems to me that it is basic diplomacy, so for me it is something that is almost a given, whether in the Pyrenees or elsewhere. I don't know who, even when Kadik you are a month away from the European elections, yes, that's going to be it, that's that. The photo shoot will work in favor of Emanuel Macon's party with voters in next month's European elections. Sorry, I didn't make the picture of the two of them together in the frying pan. Yes, that's going to work in Emanuel Mol's favor for those EU elections. Next month, I don't think it will affect these European elections at all, but I want to come back to the point because you will say that China does not divide the EU, yes, for sure, and when I look at the way China reacted Beijing. to the fact that in Lithuania, because they accepted the representation name of Taiwan instead of taipe, when we looked at what China did, they said they didn't want to get any more Lithuanian products, they kept any European products that had Lithuanians. internal components and we had everyone like Europe to tell China enough, you can't do that, so we know that it is because we are united as the EU that we have the critical size to face China and face competition from the United States and economically, so this is for sure, but we know China always tries to divide us.

Understand your concerns. I think Europe as a history-loving continent should also understand the fact that what exists on the island of Taiwan was a legacy of the Cold. The war looks at the two Koreas, two Germanys and what used to be two chins, so it really was. You already know the aspiration of the Chinese to reunify with the island that has a dissident minority regime. Unification was decided by both sides of Germany. Remember that the unification was decided by both sides as Taiwanese people if they want to reunify with Beijing. No, it seems not, we should ask France's former colonies if they were willing to be colonized.

The story continues. West Germany did it. Not inviting East Germany, Jana Bush, your opinion on where this is all going, especially after we've seen the turn in Hong Kong in recent years, well, I think, as M mentioned, in an exclusive interview that gave. Yesterday Leb triumphed the issues about human rights, Taiwan, Hong Kong, they were probably discussed behind closed doors, so I don't think we will see it, it is a good idea that you say these things only in private or that you say them. publicly what you say in private well, I'm not a diplomat, but I think you know that, ultimately, part of the French strategy with this visit is also to keep the communication channels open.

This is something incredibly important, whether for cooperation on global issues. or if it's confronting, you know, the areas where you disagree and ultimately, I think very publicly cornering her or making an inflammatory statement is not necessarily what would be most conducive to achieving that goal, okay, I do. we are seeing everything. the panelists nod their heads, we'll have to leave it there, but I want to thank you Juliana Bush. I want to thank Wang Guang for being with us. Yakob Hestler Orik. Thank you for being with us here in the France 24 debate.