Q&A with Dave Ramsey: Winning, Failing, and Success

When people ask me who has influenced my life and leadership, one of the people at the top of the list is our guest today. We're talking all things leadership with my good friend, Dave Ramsey. (upbeat music) Hello, welcome to another episode of Craig Groeschel's Leadership Podcast, where we're on a mission to help you become a leader that others love to follow. If you're new to us, we publish a new teaching on the first Thursday of every month, so I recommend you subscribe wherever you consume this content. Additionally, we have an additional additional resource available to you.

It's called a leader's guide and I really want to encourage you to get a copy of it. Go to craiggroeschel.com. Click on leadership and you can let us know you want the monthly guide for leaders. There are all kinds of notes, sometimes additional content, discussion questions, everything you need to cover this with your team or to help drive the content deeper into your leadership. Also, I'm very excited. On February 16 I will release a new book. It's called "Win the War in Your Mind, Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life." Especially in this incredibly complicated season we live in in the world today, our minds can often be out of control.

As a leader, we know that the way we think really impacts what we lead, so I encourage you to pick up a copy of this book. I have also created a five session master class. It's called How the Best Leaders Think. We look at five different specific ways the best leaders think differently. If you would like free early access to this content, you can simply request a copy of the book. You can reserve it. Go to craiggroeschel.com and you will find information on how to get early access to the masterclass. Now, it is an honor to introduce you to my good friend, Dave Ramsey, author of seven best-selling books, with more than 11 million copies sold.

He is one of the leading radio and podcast instructors in the world today, with over 17 million weekly listeners. He created Financial Peace University and that is content that honestly changed my personal life. I've been through this many times and our church and staff have been transformed by this amazing content, helping people manage their finances. He runs Ramsey Solution with around 1,000 employees and is obsessed with helping people achieve their goals. A side note: Every time Dave goes water skiing, guess what? This guy does it barefoot. Let's now get to our interview with Dave Ramsey. Well, big welcome, Dave.

Well, thanks brother. I'm very glad to have you. It is an honor for me to be here. I wanted to tell you a little bit of a story before I interview you about how I came to know you. It was the early 1990s, Amy and I were newly married, we were driving down the highway and we heard this crazy, loud, very opinionated guy on the radio. I don't know anyone like that. You were talking about the freedom of being debt-free, and I remember you said something like no one else lives, with real passion, you said that one day you will be able to live and give like no one else.

We were young, just starting out, and that message resonated with us. We believed it was possible to free ourselves from our debts, we followed each of his small steps and achieved a lot. I just want to say thank you for that. Well, thanks brother. We have been friends for a long time. The other side of the story is that I was kind of a Dave Ramsey stalker. You were lecturing again, probably in the '90s, in Oklahoma City, and I volunteered to serve there. Then we had a dinner, and the people serving had to go to dinner, and that's when we met.

I think we were at Logan's Steakhouse. You and I ended up at the same table. We did it. I remember that. So thank you for your friendship. The reason I'm so passionate about this is that the vast majority of our listeners would know who you are and you've probably helped many of them financially. You're known as an expert at helping people manage their money, but I know a different side of you that not everyone gets to see. Not only are you a brilliant radio personality, not only a world-class author with 12 million books sold, but you are one of the best leaders, and that's what I want to talk to you all about. leadership stuff.

When you walk into your organization, you can feel in the air that it is well run. Your people are happy, they are productive. It is not an easy place to work. No, it's not. It's not easy, but it's a place where people want to be and I want to talk to them about that. At some point, I imagine, Dave, you were teaching about finance and trying to help people be better managers, and you recognized that building an organization is really different than teaching. Can you tell me when he recognized how important leadership was and what helped him see the value of leading well?

Well, when I started hiring people, I was dumb, so I hired anyone who wanted a job. I used the mirror test. If you fog up a mirror, we'll hire you. A guy in a Sunday school raised his hand looking for a job, okay, come on, hire him. I need help, you need a job. It's a marriage, right, let's do it. I was really naive in that sense. I looked up, with 10 or 12 people, and I was running a zoo. I mean, it was a toxic mess. Everyone was dissatisfied. I wasn't happy because people weren't nice to each other, people weren't nice to the customer, they didn't care, because I had brought a bunch of donkeys to the barn and I thought they were purebreds.

Well, I think a lot of people could even relate to that. In the early years of starting a business or ministry, sometimes you go with whoever is available, or if you've been doing it for a long time and haven't learned how to really interview, how to have a good interview culture, you end up with some of the wrong people. What advice would you give to someone who may be in their early years of leadership so they have an eye for recognizing talent? What do you look for when you look for great people to lead with you?

Well, we teach people, and to this day, in our hiring process, once we turned around and figured out how to start doing these things, that talent is adored in our culture. So-and-so is very talented. For us, talent is secondary. The quality of your character, your passion, the fact that you care. Pat Lencioni says humble, hungry, smart. They are hungry to get things done, they are humble, which means it's not just about them, it's about

winning

, it's about the cause, it's about the customer, it's about the people on the other side of the ministry. We are blessed that we are a blessing.

This place exists for the people outside these walls. Hungry, humble and you're smart. We want smart people, we want talented people, but smart also means smart people. Can you play well with others? That's what I'm looking for, and the problem we get into is that if you just say, oh, that person is talented, then you're automatically setting yourself up to bring in toxic people. Very intelligent and toxic people. Very intelligent toxic people are really good at being toxic. I mean, it's almost impossible to build a quality culture that everyone wants to attend every day when that guy or girl is there stirring the soup every day.

So I don't really care how smart you are. You have to behave. In this process you have to be hungry, you have to be humble and you have to be intelligent, intelligent people. The way we went about that is I had to learn that you have to spend more time on the interview process. Our new recruits, I was sitting with them when they came aboard the other day. 14 people started last Monday. We hire about 250 a year right now. I'm sitting with them in their first onboarding meeting and they'll tell you that getting along with us is harder than with the FBI.

I mean, it's not easy to get us to work for us. We're going to interview you, hang out with you, talk to you, and get to know you in different settings, different people, different situations, to make sure you're not crazy and that you're still playing. with the culture and that what you are going to do every day makes you smile, and we are really going to do a lot of interviews. Often 10 different interviews are necessary before joining us. Good. I don't know how to do quality interviews quickly. There may be some who can, but our culture is the same.

People will say it took weeks and weeks and weeks in interviews and interviews to get in. I think it's good that someone knows. Sometimes when you feel desperate to hire someone, it's a very bad time to hire the person in front of you. Every time I despair about something, I become stupid immediately afterwards. When you're in a hurry because you're greedy or because I have to do this, this has to be done, the project matters more than anything else, you're going to sacrifice. It will take you a long time to clean up the mess you are going to create.

Our HR manual is to treat others how you want to be treated. So if I were being mean to someone, maybe I'm not self-aware, maybe I don't know what I'm doing, I'd like someone to sit down and tell me. So we sit down and tell them. I thought I was being a good Christian by dancing around and trying to sugarcoat and trying to be kind in my conversation with someone, where I'm trying to make a change that has to happen for that person to stay. Well then they didn't listen to me and the behavior continues. Well, whose fault is it then?

Which is my fault. When the behavior continues, they don't even know what I'm doing, or other leaders become increasingly frustrated with them, and suddenly someone just fires them. We don't do that, so we have to treat that guy or that girl, and what I finally discovered is that not being clear is being cruel. Boy, that's good. So I have to sit down, I have to be very clear. This is a difficult conversation, you're not going to like this conversation, I don't even like having this conversation, but this is what's happening. This, this, this and this, and you can stay, but not that.

Then we have to decide. You may not want to be here, and that's okay, but we're not going down this path. So those behaviors, that attitude, this lack of performance, whatever is driving you crazy as a leader, needs to be clearly explained and said: that's leaving if you're going to stay. I just want to say it again, because I don't want people to miss it, but not being clear is being cruel. What's interesting, in my previous season of leadership, I felt like I wanted to be nice to people, I didn't want to hurt them, so sometimes I held back.

That's what's unfair. What is not unfair and what is loving is to be very clear and say that this does not work, that this or that thing needs to be changed, and be specific. Giving people a chance is really good leadership. Once again, not being clear is being cruel. You might choose to say then I don't want to work here. We simply say, we are French, we, we. So we don't do that here. We provide excellence. We pay attention to details. We are friendly. We don't curse each other. We don't have temper attacks. And if you want to be a us, that's what we do.

Maybe you don't want to be a we. Alright. Yeah, so what you're doing, in fact, every time I've been in your building, first of all, the environment is a place you want to be. You walk in and I feel like I'm excited to be there. People seem excited to be there. There's a bit of a stir out there. Some places you walk in and you feel like people don't like each other, they would rather be anywhere else than there. In your organization, there is a sense of excitement, enthusiasm, passion, direction, motivation, enthusiasm, and the list goes on and on.

You have a great culture and what you just said is a list of what we do and what we don't do and in many ways that is what culture is. Yes it is. How do you get that out of your mind, your heart, your head and into the hearts of everyone else? How do you help them understand what you do, what you value, and what is important to you? We talk about it all the time, all the time. One one one in a meeting in a conflict situation, in a staff meeting, in a devotional. The 14 core values ​​are on the wall and are who we are.

They are not aspirations, they are not who we want to be. We find out who we are and then we write it down. This is what we are. We have a self-employed mentality. That means acting like you own the place. We do our work as unto the Lord. Those are two of our core values. You're doing this work for Jesus, so bring it, baby. The game begins, you bring your best to the throne room. It is excellence. Now, are we all wrong? Yes, we all make mistakes, so we will have grace too. We're going to do that, but this thing that I'm going to do as little work as possible and collect the biggest check possible because this is all about me, you don't fit in.

We're driving down the lane and putting the ball in the hoop. We are bringing it. We are not going to stick with the half-hearted Christian label, or label ourselves as Christians, that is deficient. We will be the best. We will be thebest standard in the world and you will be able to work with many smart people. They are in our shoes, they are creating it, and they care deeply. Everyone, including them, will come for me. We challenge each other for excellence. We have a really low tolerance for people who don't offer it par excellence. You have to worry.

Yes, I want to highlight some things that you have said, and even things that you didn't say but they are in your heart. Great culture will never happen by accident. No, it requires a lot of work. There's no such thing, and when I asked you what you do, you said we talk about it all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time, and you do it, I mean, when we walk down a hallway. and I am with you and you are with your team, I see you building towards them. I see you thanking them, I see you celebrating their victories.

If something's not right, I see you with a big smile on your face and you say, hey, let's do it this way this time. That's how it is all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time. Someone said vision leaks and I added vision leaks and value drift. That's just the way it is, which means people may know what it's all about one day. They get to the next one and get distracted. Values, it's incredibly difficult to keep three people moving in the same direction at the same time, let alone 996, regardless of how many team members you have.

So I just want to tell those listening that you can't exaggerate your values. You know, another thing I learned at some point, when we were about 40 people, we had a great family atmosphere. We had cleaned out the donkeys, we were running with a stable full of thoroughbreds, generally speaking, and we were in the game. And we are there for each other. I mean, some guy's house gets hit by a tornado, seven trucks show up with chainsaws and pots and we take care of his kids. Someone has a lot of money and they put it in a hotel.

We had tornadoes hit Nashville last year and, man, our guys were all over our team. Nobody had to call anyone. Once they found out that Chris's house had collapsed, they were all at Chris's house, man. If you worked in an area that didn't know Chris, someone would let you know and you'd leave anyway, because we're there for each other. We had that, and then people said, well, you know, you have 50 people, you can do that. But when you're 100, you can't do that. When you have 200, you can't do that. When you get to 200, if you still have a family environment, if there are still people who care about each other, if there are still people who care, there is a freelancer mentality, you can't do that.

I realized, I tell our team, that after the first 90 days, we ended his onboarding with some time with me in the evening and we ended up with Dave. Ask me anything. We will talk about anything. Unless you work with them daily, that may be the first or second time I see them in those 90 days. So they can tell me about personal things, rumors they heard, bad things, whatever. We talk about anything, but in the end we always tell them, listen, you're a substitute now. You are now a we, so when you see something or are something that is not a we, fix it.

Make this place where you want to work. Make it the place where you want to work helping other people get there, doing things for other people, praying for someone who is hurting. Make this the place you want to work. Now you are a producer of culture. You are not a consumer of it. If you sit back and wait for everyone else to do the culture instead of producing the kind of place you want it to be, then we'll be one of those other stupid companies. Sure, and it's very easy for them to end up there. I like what you said, because you have a really big team and you can't be everywhere, but you're strategically in the right places, which means you said when you're onboarding, you're there from the beginning. , so you are setting the tone and are there to mark the mile for them at the end of the 90 days.

That's a transition. They are moving because you are no longer incorporated, but now you are a we. Then you are there giving them the gift of your presence and your approval in those significant moments. So I would say to a leader, if you have three people, you will be there at strategic moments, if you have 3,000 people, your presence at certain moments, strategic moments, can really do a lot. to advance culture. Yes. Yes. Let's talk about leading yourself. Sometimes I think it was Maxwell who said that sometimes the hardest person to lead is yourself. What do you do so that, for example, today we are together and I said, hey, we have a quick window?

Do you want to exercise together? And you told me that... I told you I made mine at 5:30 this morning before I flew here. Yeah, so you get up at 5:30. Many people would say who in the world would get up at 5:30 in the morning? I get up at 5:30 every morning. You're choosing some things that not everyone chooses. How do you overcome inertia against good disciplines and move towards the right types of disciplines? Well, I don't always do it. There are times I do it better than others. The problem is that when you don't do it, you pay for it, whether it's your physical level, your energy level because you're out of shape.

I mean, I looked up COVID in mid-2020 and I was completely fat. I mean, I looked like the Michelin Man, or the Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters or something like that. It was ridiculous. And I discovered that from my childhood, that when we worked, mom and dad were always fixing up some old house and we worked 15 hours a day. They would put us there, we would paint all day or shovel or clean or something like that. They simply fed us every three or four hours. They said, if you have fuel, you can keep working. There was food all the time, so I associate long hours and stress with a lot of food.

Guess what? I mean, we had a lot of long hours and stress during the COVID situation, because we had leadership trying to hold that place together. We're out there working hard, man. So I ate like a pig, man. I looked up and said, this is not right. Nothing fits. I'm not going to buy all new clothes. This is ridiculous. So I started a process. In 26 weeks I lost 37 pounds. I want to get to 45, so I still have eight more to go. I'm not there, but I had to say, look, what I'm doing isn't working. And I know better.

I am 60 years old. This isn't the first time I've lost 37 pounds. I mean, I know better. But I had to say, okay, I have to pay the price to get what I want, and the discipline is that you are paying the price to get a better life. I teach people to live like no one else so that later you can live like no one else, and that's really what discipline is. The Bible says it like this, no discipline seems pleasant at the same time, but produces a harvest of righteousness. That's why it's easy to be disciplined if you want what's on offer.

Well, you said before, and I asked you how you choose the right disciplines, and you said sometimes you don't, and you even talked about Michelin's bad season during COVID. What about other types of leadership failure when you do something you wish you hadn't done, you make a decision, and someone wakes up? I'm sure there are some leaders right now in the midst of this complicated season who are saying "I can." I don't think I did what I did. I ruined it. How can you, as a leader, get up after doing something stupid and get back in the game?

Well, and believe me, in 30 years I have many of those stories. Number one, I want to make sure I learn my lesson, because it's okay to do something dumb or something stupid, but it's really horrendous to do the same stupid thing twice. So I want to make sure. I did that, I'll never do it again. I may do another one, but I won't do that one again. I want to learn the lesson. I want to have an autopsy. What happened there? What were the variables? What I was going through prepared me for that, where I didn't, I wasn't myself.

I didn't do what I was supposed to do. I was mean to someone, or I was too nice to someone, I wasn't strong enough, I was lazy. I don't know, whatever he did, but what prepared me for that? I just went through weight gain failure. What I did there was an autopsy. Why did I do that? Why did I do that? Henry Cloud and I laughed at this. He and I have been friends for years. He always says that when he traveled he gained weight because he didn't exercise and he ate poorly. It's difficult to eat well.

What happens is that you are tired and you give yourself permission to medicate. So you have to figure out why I'm doing this so I don't do it again, so I don't repeat it. Now, when it comes to team, if I've screwed up something relationally, something that I've been known to do, the idea that you can sit back and just say I'm sorry because you really mean it, is a really powerful power. stuff. Very few leaders stop and do that. I remember years ago one of our PRs set up this interview and thought it was a profile and that it was a

success

.

This guy came with an agenda. So he starts off softly, and then he's sitting in my studio interviewing me, and he starts with this line of questioning, and I'm like, I can tell where this is going. And I was stupid, I let him continue. I should have kicked him out. I should have said that you came in here under false pretenses, this is over. Get out of my building. That's what I should have done. But I finished the interview, the national publication, it just tore me to pieces. He planned it from day one. So when I walked out of that interview, I was mad at myself for not stopping it.

I was angry at her for letting it happen because I knew it was going to be ugly. I walked into her office and there were two of her people sitting there, and I just, this is ridiculous, and I was angry and I just took it out on her. The next morning, around 4:45, God woke me up and said, my son, you're an idiot (laughs). I said, you're right, father. Not being clear is being cruel, and he was kind to you. You're an idiot and I, yes, am an idiot. That was completely abrupt. Number one, you shouldn't berate people in front of other people.

That is absolutely a violation of common sense on the part of a leader. Simply horrible. This was 20 years ago. I never did it again because it was so embarrassing. I'm too embarrassed to tell the story right now. I'm a little red. This is such a horrible leadership attitude. I went back in and took her and the other two people out and apologized profusely. She said, no, she really deserved it. That was really bad. I said, no, no one deserved what you have. Yes, we needed to fix this, it was a mistake, but there are so many different ways it could have been handled, and I was an idiot, and I'm really sorry, and it was completely wrong to address this in front of you. two.

You two experienced bad leadership. You saw it happen. Never let anyone do this, what I did. That's horrible. Everything got better, it was as good as it could be, but you really can't stop dreaming. Forever, that's in the back of their minds. You can't take it out, but it hasn't happened in 20 years either, so I learned my lesson and apologized. That's really all you can do. That's one of the many weaknesses I've made over the years. Well, I like what you did. You not only apologized to her, but also to those who witnessed it, so that they know your humility.

And I found that there were a couple of times where I had to apologize to our entire team, I mean, one time I was in a season where I was distracted and overwhelmed and hadn't led well. It's surprising how many people actually give a leader grace most of the time if a leader truly repents. So I think that's a good example. You have lasted with integrity. You have a great family, a great marriage, you have a team that loves you. What are some common ingredients you've had in your life that have helped you go far when so many people can't?

Well, again, I think I had the incredible benefit of being humbled to the point of knowing I didn't have all the answers. I think what turns so many people off is this level of arrogance. I have an incredible level of confidence and I am very passionate and loud, so sometimes that is labeled as arrogance. But every time everything is aimed at serving in some way. I'm lifting, pushing something, and this is very strange for me personally. But before there was this arrogance, so most of the time when there is a lack of accountability to integrity, a lack of accountability to humility, it's because I think I'm the second coming.

My wife helps with that. Sometimes I say, she looks, we have to take this on, we have to do this. She said, no, that's really not your job. You are not Jesus. He's got everything, you're supposed to do this thing. It is a problem of the Messiah. You don't need to do this. You are not the Messiah. So that sets me free. A great, strong and virtuous wife. Who can find a virtuous wife, since her value is much higher than that of rubies? Her husband's heart trusts her safely and she will not lack gains. So I can always come in, we can always sit down.

We're Ramseys, we're rednecks, we fight, we fight for sport, we just enjoy a good argument. We do this as a way of processing decisions at Ramsey. We fight and argue. Nobody ever gets angry. We will discuss just to see. I will take the other position so that there is adiscussion. To me, that's a good way to process decisions and that means you have people in your life who are talking. You're not the only one talking. Well well. When he was in his early 20s, he accumulated $4 million in real estate and ended up losing it, but I think he probably had a different definition of

success

at the time.

Success for you then was probably the accumulation of wealth and you've obviously still been successful on that path, but you probably have a slightly different view of what success is. At this stage of life, what would you say success really is today, Ramsey? Earl Nightingale says that the definition of success, he used to say, is the progression to the realization of a worthy goal. For me, whatever we're doing, whether it's Papa Dave with a six-month-old on my knee or whether we're on a stage with 250,000 people watching a live stream, whatever it is, it needs to be wide open.

There does not need to be a hole in the back. You have to try. If you're not doing that, then do something to shake it up. I turned 60 last September, so I thought: I have to do something. I've always water skied barefoot, you were joking about that, so I said, okay, we'll go barefoot when I turn 60. I must have that on the list. So we all went skydiving. My son went with me and a group of my friends. That was a trip. I have never done that. That was fun. I did this SEAL team exercise where I went out with SEAL team six and I was one of the bad guys and they were shooting at you.

I had this incredible week and a half of adrenaline rush from all these different things I was doing, from jumping out of planes to getting sprayed with paint by the SEALS to then riding barefoot behind a boat at 40 miles an hour. Just do something. For me, success is encompassing everything. God has so many wonderful things, being a grandfather, being a husband, being a leader, running a business in America, being in ministry, leading people to the Lord. I mean, whatever you're doing, just open wide. That's what I want on my tombstone. Well, every time I've been with you, you accept everything.

You always seem to have some kind of crazy new adventure, so I want to applaud you for that. I just want to have some fun, help people see maybe a different side of you. Are you up for a quick little round of questions? Oh, of course. I'm going to shoot you a few and you can answer as many of these as quickly and honestly as you can. Super important question that many people have been on the edge of their seats waiting to hear. What is the best rock band of the 80s according to Dave Ramsey? For me, it would be the '70s, and that would be the Eagles.

The Eagles, and they bled into the 80s. Yes, and the 90s and 2000s. Favorite dessert, the one that gave you kicks during COVID. Which is your favorite dessert? (laughs) Chocolate donuts. Come on. Dogs or cats? Ah, dogs. Until the end. Communication way. Are we texting, are we talking, or are we emailing? Email. Email, I knew it. You are the ultra-fast email sender. Childhood nickname. What did they call you? I don't know. David, I was David until I was 20-something, and then I changed it to Dave. Thanks for being on David Ramsey. The David Ramsey. When my wife says it, it's a four-syllable word, David, so there you have it.

On a scale of one to ten, how good a driver are you? I am a great driver and I drive very fast. So let's say a two. (Laughter) The reason that bothers the leadership the most. What gets on your nerves and drives you crazy? Disloyalty. Peculiar habit. What is it that you do that drives other people crazy? I skip ahead to the solution instead of listening to it from start to finish. I have you, and on a serious note to conclude, something you are most proud of in this season of your life. My children. Yes, and you should be.

And your grandchildren. And my grandchildren. And more are coming. They keep coming. They keep coming. They're coming out like popcorn. Life is good. Life is good. Well, Dave, David, thank you for your friendship and for your leadership. I wanted to talk about some things you're doing. You have many tools, not only to help people financially, but also in their leadership, in their objectives. So, a few things to highlight: If you go to

dave

ramsey

.com, you'll be able to learn about Ramsey Plus. Can you tell us what is available in Ramsey Plus? So, Ramsey Plus encompasses everything you need to keep walking, not just out of debt, but into wealth and into outrageous generosity.

It starts with the Every Dollar Budget app, a premium version that connects to your bank. It has Financial Peace University, Legacy Journey, additional classes from Rachel Cruze and Chris Hogan on budgeting, investing, and all kinds of additional things on top of Financial Peace University. It has the small steps tracking app, so you can track and monitor your progress and know where you are and get those quick wins and know that you're moving forward. It has a community, where you connect, and all of our coaches, we have about 5,000 coaches now that we've trained, and many of them are available to ask a coach a question.

All of that is included. It's a ridiculous value because it's about the same price as Financial Peace University was in the past. I've done Financial Peace three times with Amy, I've directed it before. It's very valuable and you get all the other extra tools - that's Ramsey Plus. And then we will be together from May 16 to 19 for EntreLeadership. I hope so. We hope so. That's the plan, right? That is. I listed it here, Patrick Lencioni, Marcus Buckingham, Simon Sinek, Christy Wright, Chris Hogan are coming, and of course they will be there, and others will teach leadership.

There is information about all this at

dave

ramsey

.com. Thank you very much for your leadership. Thank you. To our community, I just want to remind you that you can get free early access to the five-part leadership masterclass. It's called How the Best Leaders Think. Go to craiggroeschel.com and you'll find all kinds of details there. You can also download the leader's guide on that site and then you can find out how to get free early access to the masterclass. We say it all the time and you do it very well. As leaders, we feel pressure, but we always tell people this: be yourself, because people would rather follow a leader who is always real than one who is always right. (upbeat music)