Dave Ramsey's Advice to Pastors

Well, Dave Ramsey, what a pleasure it is to sit with you speaking in church today. Well, thank you, thank you for inviting me. Yes, I'm surprised we brought you to Minneapolis in February, if I'm honest, but it's a pleasure. You're here talking to us this weekend at our church and I'm here just to talk to

pastors

and I have a lot of questions for you, but first of all, I just want to say thank you on behalf of

pastors

everywhere for everything you've done. made. made for the church for pastors for people in our churches we have talked about stories, even in the short time we have been together, about people in our church whose lives have been changed by your ministry and for that I just want to thank you in name of thousands of pastors around the world.

Oh, thank you. I can't think of a better group of people to serve than the pastors you dedicate your lives to and if we can do anything to make your path a little straighter, that is. right, it's a joy for us, yes, in some ways I feel honored that of all the pastors you could sit with and I know you've sat with many amazing pastors, you're sitting here with me, uh, we were joking. Before we started, that Financial or Ramsey program has been going on longer than I've been alive, and so you've been helping people all over the world, so I have a lot of questions for you, so I hope you'll be patient. . me, but my first question is, in some way, do you ever feel like a pastor?

I listen to Ramsey's show all the time and there are a lot of counseling calls, there are a lot of people calling with needs and you are helping. them and there are so many lies that were changed do you ever feel that way or talk about it? We teach our team to be pastors to be pastors, not pastors in the sense of church staff, but to be pastoral in our approach and love and biblical and truthful and um compassionate and walking with the wounded but identifying what caused the wound and so not to receive more of that and um yes, that has to be our focus uh our hope is actually that we are evangelists uh you We know that we are pastoral with the goal of being evangelists, we are not trying to pastor a local congregation for sure, but being pastoral in approach, loving, kind, telling the truth, etc., WE and you know, drop the Scriptures in the middle of the mainstream every day.

For over 30 years, you know, the fruit of this is that some people who might never darken the door of a church, will find Christ and do, we get so many wonderful stories and testimonies of people who are saved and know, in reality with you this weekend we had a guy who has no debt, he was screaming that he was suicidal and he came to Christ, uh, because he was listening to us and he started looking for a church and he found his church and his boys took him to Christ and I baptized him and um, so it was a team, yeah, some plants, some harvest.

Right, yeah, and uh, but it was uh, you know, that's our hope that there are tens of thousands of them every day getting all these calls that have impacted some of the new people that you've brought on to the team, you know, look. to John Deloney and others who have simply had different experiences, how have you thought about growing your team knowing that there are so many different needs than 31 years ago when you started? When we started, I really thought we were just teaching biblical finance, what the Bible says, you know, common sense, getting out of debt, having a limited budget, etc., but we started to discover very quickly that was the reason why God deals with finances more than 2,500 times. in the scriptures money in possessions is because our behaviors come from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, the behaviors arise from our values ​​and to change your money you cannot simply change the mathematical intellectual tactical part of your brain, you have that transforms your behaviors, that is your attitude, your spirit, so your spiritual walk is woven into personal finances more than I realized and what that ends up meaning is that I have people come and go, you saved our marriage and I went, we weren't teaching. the kind of sex the other guys were, you know, you saved our business.

I wasn't teaching that, but what I was teaching you is how to make yourself better because that will make your money better and that has opened the door then to a Ken Coleman talking about his career and now he's on 75 radio stations doing that, a very popular podcast that talks about you know your work matters to God, basically, finding your own there and Dr. John Deloney, the field of mental health, but those are limits. Those are relationships, that's whatever, but all of that is woven into this being transformed by the renewal of your mind. Yes, that is very good and for us we have seen that to be true.

We have been in our church doing Financial Peace for over 20 years. and to us it seems obvious that those things come together, but in many ways I see pastors struggle talking about money, what would you say to someone who maybe feels that struggle like you know it again? For us, we see that it is obvious that things are interconnected to our spirit and our soul and our body and our life and our money but there are still many pastors that we talk to all the time when we travel doing our generosity events that say: I'm afraid to talk about it even though the Bible talks about it more than 2,500 times, what would you say to them?

Well, we've certainly seen that for 30 years, um, and there's a lot of reasons for that. I sympathize with the idea that you don't want to be one of those air date churches where you know someone is doing well, they want your money and as an unbeliever I heard that from relatives, you know, they say oh, I don't go to that church, everyone wants your money, that whole church. what he wants is your money and that is true sometimes, but what a pastor who does not want to talk about money is afraid of being labeled that way because he is afraid that if he presents it wrong, someone will misunderstand him or maybe he will feel inadequate in your own personal finances and that's why it's a shame.

I don't want to talk about something I'm not doing well, but the best sermons I've heard as a member of the congregation are when the pastor is very authentic about his marriage or very authentic about his shortcomings in any area without exaggerating, but I mean oversharing, but I mean, when they're real humans up there and they're authentic, then as a person sitting in the congregation, I'm much more willing to lead and follow them rather than present a perfect I have to be. perfect at anything before you talk about it, which is a little absurd, yes, but never again, so what I would encourage pastors to do is just think about your narrative and how you are going to approach it and that you won't walk away if someone takes something away from Pastor Rob talking about money that all that church wants is our money, they weren't listening because that's not how he presents it yes, he is presenting that God is doing a work and you can participate in this that God is doing it and it's not like this church needs it, it's not like we're trying to raise money for my jet, you know, it's nothing like that, okay, it's not. even those wicked, weird, toxic things that we're all afraid of looking like that guy, um, so don't be afraid to look like that guy and walk away from that thing and say, you know, hey, I can't talk about marriage because My marriage is not perfect and I'm afraid that if I speak badly about it in a culture where more people live together than are married, you know, I don't know, maybe you know I might offend someone, well, you're going to offend someone, yeah.

The gospel is offensive, but you can do it in an engaging way that, um, that just pushes them out of the chair and makes them, you know, have a Damascus Road experience, yeah, absolutely, and I think sometimes even with the social media and I know that's your favorite thing, right, it's been exaggerated to the point where people are afraid. You know, recently there have been accounts with pastors in which it is said that pastors are rich and wear watches and shoes. What would you say about the myth that pastors aren't supposed to do it? be rich, I mean, if they follow your baby steps and get baby steps, millionaires and follow the plan, but maybe they feel convinced, well, maybe I'll still preach it to other people, but you know myself I don't want to do it. this, but we see so many pastors holding on to their church for 70 80, you know, 90 years because they don't have a retirement, yeah, you know, no, no, they didn't manage their finances biblically, a godly man. leave an inheritance to your children's children in the house of the wise there are reserves of choice foods and oil God gives you the power to generate wealth Deuteronomy says so if you are, you know part of the problem is that some pastors say, well , pastors should not be. rich because they really believe that Christians shouldn't be and so they fear that they are setting a model for how to become one by managing their money well and now you know that you don't want to become rich, like a pig in the through eating out of church to the point of that, but I know a lot of pastors who are national figures who have book deals, speak outside the church, do all kinds of things and have invested consistently for many years and have built a level of wealth but they have a level of success that goes with that and they didn't squeeze the congregation to make that happen, no one with ethics would tell a pastor to do that, but on the other hand If your reaction to seeing that that has happened a couple of times and it has happened is say, oh, I'm going to be poor or I'm going to do a bad job managing money or I'm going to be disorganized and I just hope that's the case. everything works.

I have had pastors tell me that I have faith and I should have enough faith to follow the Scriptures. Yes, that's true. Especially in the United States and the West. I think you know you've talked about this on your show. but it's relatively easy to become a millionaire if you invest consistently over time, but I think only 100 a month, yeah, in a growth stock mutual fund, 25 to 65 is 1 million one hundred seventy-six thousand dollars . Yeah, a hundred dollars a month, that's it. not ten thousand, that's not, you know, you know, this is just a reasonable level of diligence and the Scriptures say that the diligent Prosper, so yeah, it is for a pastor to have worked all those years and retire completely broke is actually a bad testimony, I'm sure they've not been diligent they haven't been disciplined no discipline seems nice at the time but it produces a harvest of righteousness or writing upon writing upon writing upon writing do this and this is not something I'm about talking about the Gospel of Prosperity.

I don't have enough hair to do that's not what it is not at all this is a sew and reap gospel a cause and effect gospel and that's why I encourage pastors to be a good witness in their marriage in the way that treat your wife, be a good witness in the way you handle the money you have and then you can look up and say, I'm not dependent on this congregation to feed me because I've done a good job. I've been a Good Steward, yes, that's as good as you've gotten over the years or has that become more evident to you as you've worked with more churches and more pastors, are you seeing a trend where Do pastors come to you more now? saying hello, thank you, I've been applying it or do you feel like it's still a struggle to fall behind maybe some of the people who are part of your program you know, it's all over the map one of the things we've been What we've done in The last two years have been really rewarding for us spiritually.

We have given Financial Peace University to pastors for free and we have online pastoral pastoral groups where there are pastors in a group of other pastors who have the discussion on the go. through Financial University so they are not in front of their own congregation, yes they are in their name, they are there with other pastors and we give it to them for free, so come to ramsaysolutions.com, they are completely free pastors and we want to show you how to do it and the truth is that most pastors don't make a lot of money, let's face it, that's not the number of pastors that make 100,000 a year, there aren't many of them, yes, statistically as a percentage of the churches that exist, I think that the last number I saw was something like 74 percent or 82 or something like that in that range, they're vocational, they get another job just so they can manage the just to keep the doors open so they're not they're not, you know. that they are not making money in that sense, so we love them and we want to accompany them and help them, but one of the things that is very interesting is in your study of millionaires, can you talk about the best professions in which we are millionaires, They're not really very high income jobs, so pastors could maybe throw their hat in and say hey, if you can do it, I can do it well, like I said, 100 bucks, yeah, 100 bucks a month.

You know, so you're right, the top five people that appeared in the millionaire study number one was an engineer number two is an accountant number three was a teacher number four was a business executive and number fivereselling them on Poshmark and eBay and all kinds of stuff. We started moving the next payment was like 2000 and then we sold four thousand dollars worth of stuff, then her mom found out and did a good job. selling gets a bonus at work and all of a sudden we ended up paying that amount and all the interest was twenty thousand dollars in four months yeah because we sold everything and we went crazy and never wanted to do it again and then I said: I have to do it.

I paid off my car and we started throwing two grand on the car and we did it and the whole trip debt free again.Pastor's salary. I was in the first year of marriage and we got it done in about six months because we were going crazy and they said we never wanted to do that again, but it started at 600. Yeah, it did and the feedback loop encouraged you. Yeah, and then you know this could work, this could work, hey, this is going to work, yeah, come on, yeah, you know, and that's what happened to you, that increases and that's why this is a spiritual thing. , not a question of mathematics, you have to understand mathematics too, yes.

We have to look at the math and come on, we have to increase revenue, we have to find someone, you know, there are two sides to the equation, but this idea that you can do this with just intellect is absurd, yeah, yeah, right? Can we talk about the Bible University? because I think sometimes pastors make a decision when they're 18 19 20 years old and they get really late because they get into debt because they feel called to be a pastor and I know a lot of people at the school where I went to school. Many other colleges graduate with 50,80,100,000 in debt and go to get a job that maybe makes thirty thousand dollars or maybe they don't even get paid and have to get a side job.

What would all your thoughts be about? I know your opinion on this, but give me your general opinion on that whole situation. I think it puts people behind. Well, first of all, you should know anyone who has done anything with money. I have done the silliest thing I have. a doctorate in nonsense, so if you're a pastor who went to Bible College, you racked up a ton of debt. I've been dumber than you, so, um, but then we can go back from that, you know, let's take the shame and the guilt. off the table condemnation off the table that's not what this discussion is about instead let's go to the other side and say, okay, we're sitting with an 18 year old young man who has God's calling on his life and needs be trained, you need to know something, um, but that will probably take a while before you are in the role of senior pastor, besides academic studies, you have some experience, you need mentoring, some learning, you do it, so there is a process that is going to follow. go through it, but if you're sitting with an 18 year old that really has the hand of God on him and really needs to be trained, then we have to ask ourselves what does the word of God say about this and um, I just go back to, I spent a lot of mental stuff, it's a long time in Proverbs, obviously, but the psalmist says that to the blessings of the Lord no sadness is added and um, I got approved for school and got the student loan.

That's God's blessing, well, it's inconsistent with Scripture and that makes it difficult to call it a blessing and, um, and it's going to cause problems. You know, I met with a young couple at church one time and I counseled them and the The guy had gotten into a $700 car payment and he said, "And you know, his income was like $1,400." God gave me this car and I told him God didn't give you this car he said how do you know and I told him I'm sure God didn't give you this car your baby doesn't have food they're cutting off your lights They're going to evict you because of the rent payment this car.

God didn't give you this car. Yes, you know, sadness is not added to the blessings of the Lord, and I'm looking at a man in pain, you know, so I'm sure. Of that he said, well, even the finance manager said it was a miracle. I said yes, I think he said, let's be serious, but that's where this falls and there are two things at play, one is, um, I've studied the scriptures. and I have been challenged on this by good theological minds for 35 years and I have yet to find anyone who can show me where God used debt to accomplish his purposes, where God used debt as a tool.

Larry Burkett used to say, you know, there's never a time in Scripture where the Hittites and the Amalekites had the Israelites in the valley, so they did a bond issue, you know, it's just not, no, it's not there, for so there is never a moment when God mentions each debt singularly. in the scriptures and it is mentioned many times, it is not a sin, it is never said to be a sin and it is certainly not a salvation problem, sure, it is not big enough, it does not fall into that category, but every mention is negative.

And if every mention is negative, that's God, my daughter, my son, this is not the best way for you, I love you and you can probably survive and no, it's not, it's not like being sexual immorality, it's not a sin, but it's nonsense biblically speaking, so if we take that and say okay, if that's what the Scriptures say, the preponderance of the Scriptures when you study them carefully, then if you're borrowing money to do anything, you're coming out of that and God does not speak against himself, so God does not call. go to death, that's my point, of course, yes, for the reason of the preponderance of the Scriptures against that, number one, number two, the blessings of the Lord do not have an attitude of repentance, so how is it that?

How do we bring that to the Bible Institute discussion? It means you have to find another way to go to school, yeah, um, whatever your school is, biblical or not, and the fact that your Bible isn't stupid, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't do that, so I'm not going to do it. Tell that 18 year old to go into a hundred thousand dollars of debt for a position you know I'm not, but that doesn't even pay that well on average, so the math doesn't work. It's bad professional

advice

versus like here at church. This afternoon we were talking, a girl comes up to me and says: I'm going to go into student loan debt to be a nurse anesthetist.

She will make 450 a year when she gets out and I still told her she wouldn't go. and death, yes, because I can't tell where the Bible says to do it. I said I won't do it, but at least she has a mathematical reason. I'm sure you know that at least she'll make $450,000 on the other side. that, but she will have 200,000 student loan debt if she's careful, if she's not careful, three or four hundred thousand, yes, but she can pay that off in 20 minutes if she lives like a college student, yes, but and that. It almost makes it okay, but it's still not biblical, yeah, I'm still not going to tell someone I love to do something that's contrary to scripture because I don't see that bringing a blessing to their life, yeah, and if you go to follow such a rigorous schedule and work at a job that generates so much, then you're probably smart enough to figure it out and get away with it.

I find it ironic that the Bible, which speaks against debt, knows that we go to study the Bible at Bible college, get into debt, that speaks against that. The irony of that is profound. Do you feel that the institutions that are public again are different? I guess they don't believe the same things we do. but Christian institutions, do you feel like there's some kind of responsibility on them and their role or in some ways do I feel like they're just saying, hey, we're trying to survive whatever you want to do, but like not? I don't take credit cards well.

Do you feel like universities should maybe step up and say, we want to help pastors, we want to do this, or are you in the I stopped running other people's businesses a long time ago, I mean, if you were applying? I couldn't do it, yeah, yeah, because what I believe, but if you believe in something different, we can still be friends. I just don't think so, yeah, and then, um, you'd know if I cut out credit cards for 30 years and told people not to use credit cards just to have a debit card and then I took credit cards in our store. web, that would be as hypocritical as you can believe, yeah, so I can handle myself, I can handle my own hypocrisy so that we don't do it. we accept credit cards, yeah, we only accept debit cards and, you know, we make a big deal of that, but you know, it's just that you have to think about how God loves you and he here's his love letter and he says, my son, my daughter, this is the best way to live and then we don't do that and it just breaks my heart, yeah, how have you learned to deal with criticism over the years?

Sometimes not well because I'm a warrior and, um, you know. and then my tendency is to hit back and that's not good, I shouldn't do that, but there are times you have to fight, you have to fight for something, you have no other choice, and sometimes you need to fight. in Ashoka culture uh in the name of Jesus and there is a place for warriors um but I guess the thing is I just need to back off and go, who am I really trying to serve here? You know, about 23 years. The old man lives in his mother's basement and has a Twitter account, uh, no, so I mean he doesn't understand, he didn't get a vote on where Ramsey goes.

Really the beautiful thing about having gone bankrupt and having lost everything is that I lost it. my fear of man really and sometimes i'm really a bit mean honestly i don't care what people think i really only care what jesus thinks and i should even care maybe a little what my wife thinks but that's just me . I don't really have this need for everyone to be happy because once I hit rock bottom there was no one there, there was no one there voting for us, it was just me and Sharon and some hungry little kids and Jesus, yeah, and that was it, ya You know. if that's why if we ever get back to that we can do it again I mean we're fine yeah but I'm also human and I'm like someone else should hurt your feelings when people say horrible things about especially when they're not true, I mean, at least if you're going to say something horrible about me, make sure it's right, yeah, that's funny, no, I think a lot of young people struggle with that.

I know, you know, they struggle with that. People think that on social media we have always been in the spotlight and we have tried to show the best of our life and compare it to the best of other people's lives by comparing it to the worst of ours, well, the beauty of Your generation is the one you grew up with. This magic wand in your hand and you had access to a lot of wonderful things but you also had access to uh uh it gave people who hadn't earned the right to have an opinion the ability to have a correct opinion and that's why they always make fun of the 24 year old kid in his mom's basement because they haven't earned the right, you know they stink of Tic Tac, you know they're dead gum, uh, financial expert and they've never had two nickels to rub together, yeah.

You know, that's the problem with social media, that's why I pick on it all the time, but the good thing about social media is that it taught the last two generations to have agency, to have autonomy, to be able to speak and be heard. and that they had a voice, that part is good, there was just no respect and there was no guidance to maintain it, to give it some nobility, but it's, um, I think you guys are. I believe your Generations have a real advantage in changing the world. so I'm excited about Gen Z. I have a lot of Gen Z members on our team and I'm excited about them, um, and I'm excited about the really positive things that can be done with an iPhone or at Google or whatever. whatever, but, boy.

There are also a lot of negatives, yes, absolutely one thing that I think pastors struggle with is obviously talking about money, something we've touched on, but what would be your

advice

to pastors who maybe have someone like you in your congregation to be a rich Christian who follows them? God's principles, but you may feel intimidated by the wealth of people in your congregation, people of high ability. We have talked to pastors for years about them and the strange thing is that I have often done little miniature events where I will bring high capacity people with pastors. together and what's really weird is like the beautiful girl in high school that you were bullied into asking her out, but you go to your 10 year old class reunion and find out that she always wanted you to ask her out and you're like I never had the chance that all you do is ask why I was waiting for you, you know?

So they're like that, like pastors are intimidated by business people and business people are intimidated by spiritual people, yeah, uh, pastor insight, so these two people are very insecure, it's almost funny, they're very successful. in their own spaces, but they feel unsafe to talk to each other and if you can ever go to lunch, that changes everything. because that high capacity business person, high capacity financial artist, has spiritual needs just like a single mother, they have exactly the same spiritual needs, yes, and that pastor still needs to love them and shepherd them, and they will be the ones we assign to them.

We attribute to someone who is successful we attribute other parts of their life to be successful, that is notit's true, you know, for example, you take a young musical artist who becomes very popular or a young football player, you know the NFL, he's 24 years old and you know he's at the top of his game, but when he leaves the Football really is dumber than a rock, it's nothing about anything, but we give it to them, we attribute it to where we want to buy insurance, like they tell us to buy insurance, but they are 24 years old. old football player yes, but the musical artist, but because they earned a lot of money because they were successful because they stood out, we give them the attribution of having other characteristics that they do not have and the same goes for the High ability person, just because he is successful. in business doesn't mean they can't be credited with having a strong and powerful spiritual path or that their marriage is fine or that they had enough trauma as children that they still need spiritual healing from you.

I still need the same hassles and pastors, you know, the high-capacity man is intimidated by the pastor and because the pastor seems to have everything under control, but when you sit down and you're a business person, you sit down with a pastor and you find out that the vast majority of them can't balance their checkbook, so you could really be a blessing in this person's life, so it's a wonderful place for these two very successful people to meet and love each other and then they can and you can guide people, what I tell pastors all the time is to be very, very, very careful not to bring um uh uh uh insults from the pulpit towards wealth hmm because the culture is already telling you to that rich person who is a dog that they are horrible that wealth is bad and that they are bad and that money is the root of all evil that the Bible does not say is the love of money so they are already being sacrificed for the communists part of the culture are already being criticized and if they take a hit from the pulpit then they will just crawl in a hole and hide, maybe they will still go to church there, but you will never find them, yes, because they will just remain invisible because no, they don't believe in you, they think you know, okay, you run a brothel or something, so I have to hide, you know, that's how they feel, they feel dirty, yeah.

So you need to clean them up and tell them how wonderful they are and as my friend Rabbi Lapin says, they are getting certificates of appreciation from customers with faces like presidents, yeah, and you know, love them and affirm them. that they are doing good work in the community and then walk alongside them and help them build their spiritual life yeah, no, that's very good and I think you know the Bible says that the rich fall into many temptations and we want to be a pastor. who walks alongside people, but you are right, it is the love of money and I have met people who do not have much who love money much more and there are people who have a lot who do not love money at all and are so generous and live that way a pastor has the opportunity to affirm to a believer that he has been financially successful and also help him understand that he does not own it, that he is just a manager, yes, so be a manager as long as you are a manager, you're in a safe zone, you're not, you won't get into wealth, but almost everything comes back to that core thing once you take ownership away from it. money away from God from assets away from God once you say "Okay God, look what I have done, now I have some money instead of God, this is all yours, I will manage it for you, once If you do that, you will fall into everything." Those Temptations of Wealth, yes, yes, we teach people here in River Valley to have a plan, to be generous, to have a vision of what God could do and then to have a dream, what is the dream amount that You could give it to God and he would be beyond. your wildest dreams and we have had business owners and people in companies and in all walks of life come up to us crying and saying thank you for giving my money a purpose, yes, because honestly, at some point wealth is useless. .

Whatever you know, I try to tell the shepherds and everyone else all the time, if you eat enough lobster, it tastes like soap. I mean, it doesn't matter, you get the most beautiful car in the world. Some idiot will bump into him. You know, I'm serious. Aren't those things just things that give you something? It's okay to have some good things. It's not against the Bible, but at some point the value of things in your emotions and your psychology and your spiritual world starts to diminish and everything is fine. what is eternal what matters what is meaningful and how can I leave a mark of a legacy and the people who create wealth that's how they start to think if they grow up yes, yes, that's true as someone who has had a front seat row before who I believe is one of the greatest leaders in the world and my dad, you have had the opportunity to work a lot with your children.

What are some of the things you have learned about working with your children in a Ministry? It happens a lot and then secondly, how are you? You're starting to think you've been doing this for over 30 years, what's succession like for you? Do you want to do this for the next 20 30 years or do you feel like I want to pass on this and more, I think? Many pastors feel this way too, pastors who don't have their succession plan in place or are late, if you are 27 years old and a pastor and you start working on your succession plan right now, you are late because all the data we have, we have studied family businesses and family ministries, everything we've studied has some basic principles, um, and one is that the more gradual the succession plan, the more successful it will be, the greater the likelihood that it will work, yes, more gradual, etc. .

It is kind that many times the leader, especially the founder of the first generation, waits until the last minute and as they die they clutch their chest and fall back into the grave and throw away the keys and that is their succession plan and those don't They don't work , they don't work, so the more gradual the better, which is frustrating for both of us, it's a little frustrating for everyone because it's not okay, when is this going to happen? The younger, the younger generation I'm ready, but no, it's gradual, he's gradual. the older generation is like I'm ready, I'm out of here no, it's gradual, it's gradual, it's gradual, it's gradual, all the data that we have, the ones that are successful and the best case scenarios in the best case, uh, where we are studying better. internships in this or that number one number two um and these are small businesses that we work with and churches that we work with uh the higher calling the nobility of the higher calling I don't own this.

I'm managing this because God makes me As a founder, being successful makes me have a succession plan if it's mine, my church, yes, and some know some pastors will never want to say that out loud, but deep down in their heart it's my church and they will not take my church. I built this church and if you put a little bit of that in it, it makes it very difficult to execute a succession plan. My business, my business, and in my case, I have the benefit of being bankrupt and the idea of ​​stewardship, that means I'm not an owner, I'm just an asset manager because God is engraved in my life, so I said, "It's Well, God, I'm managing this for you." What makes a good administrator?

A good manager has a succession plan. Yes, he doesn't have it. Well, last minute, so the more noble you are about that, it will warn those of you who are going to try this as soon as they start planning that it will be less important, your plan will work and the way it is not as fun as it seems . so you really have to climb back into that peerage so we have formed in our case we knew we had to hand over ownership to good quality Next Generation owners and leave leadership to a leadership team that could handle it without me . and then we had to do another thing which is a brand transfer and the pastors have a little bit of that too so people come to see that guy yeah and you know how you do that again gradually and we figured it out in our case.

It's not necessarily true in a church, but in our case a one-to-many transfer was better, so now we have 10 Ramsay personalities secure in all kinds of areas who will carry all the load that I used to do and we begin. measuring non-Dave income, being sure how much income is happening, that I didn't do, that I don't have to do, and that's a sign that the gradual succession plan is coming into effect, so you know, start working on it early, think about it, talk about it. let everyone know a lot of communication the family let people know if someone is on the right path or off the path let the congregation know let the customer know in our case we have been telling the company we have been telling the customers this is what we are That's why Ramsay personalities, we changed the schedule from the Dave Ramsey Show to the Ramsey Show, so we went from Walt Disney to Disney and that's why we're doing these very different things that get to where the succession plan it will work very, very intentionally and yet what we are simultaneously doing is planning for me to be less important, which is very hard on your ego, yes, no, that's true.

I was at a conference and I heard Ray Johnston, the pastor of Bayside in Sacramento, and he said I need to move. my church from Rayside to Bayside and he said people have ego and that's what he'll preach, yeah that's so good, he said they have ego and they want impact and he said if every ego outweighs the impact, you know you have God to goes and he talks about the same thing, his succession team and all that, so what you're talking about in business is also very applicable to the church. I've seen some people get to the point and then just walk away, it's a you.

I have to clean the building to let the next one take care of it. In our case, we are being a little different. I intend to continue working, but I will not direct it. I'll just be a speaker and a writer and I'll be on the air as long as it makes sense. I'm going to stop making sense. They will kick me out, but that will be my retirement plan. I can continue talking in Ramsey. I guess it will be one. of Rams personalities, but currently I'm still the CEO, of course, and I'm still the owner, yes, and the majority interest in the well, anyway, but this year my son was promoted to president, so he and I are running the business. for the next season together The next step will be to get out of that and I'll just do Ramsey's personality that can be four five six years I don't know something like that, thanks for sharing that with us, it's great to have. an inside track and what's happening at Ramsey Solutions as we come to the end.

I have some final questions, there may be some quick questions or maybe people are interested in you, what you talk about, small steps to avoid debt. In any situation you say the only thing I might not yell at you for is like a 15 year fixed rate mortgage that's no more than 25 of your take home pay, would you say that in churches you would say, hey, I'm not going to get into that or are there any recommendations that you have in terms of building mortgages or would you say be debt free and debt free and stay debt free always?

I don't borrow money at all because I can't find it in Scripture and that's why I'm a weirdo. I'm not mad at my friends who are getting a mortgage and I'm not mad at the people who are getting a mortgage on a building. I have to tell you that I truly believe that God will provide. the money to do his will, I really believe that, but we are friends with people who are in debt and I love them, so it's okay, yeah, but I don't borrow money and by the way, you know, start. broke down and we saved up and bought our first small five million dollar building and the campus we are on now is worth about 450 million dollars worth of buildings and property etc. and it's taking a long time, we just finished a 2,500 seat Auditorium I pay cash for everything I don't borrow money I haven't borrowed a dime since I declared bankruptcy in 1988 and they didn't lend it to me back then, but even if they had, they convinced me that this It was biblical, yeah, that's amazing, um, but it's God's call on my life and I'm not going to do it.

No, no, I don't throw stones or condemn. Honestly, if I could convince you of that, I think it's your best path, yes, yes, really. I honestly believe that, but saying that without condemnation, yes, that's very good, yes, a couple more here. um, as someone who's busy, you work hard, you're someone who's driven what your time with God is, they seem devotional and you know, I'm one of the guys. that guided me, the Lord, um, was a biblical scholar and, uh, he had grown up in building construction, uh, you know his family and I ask, how did you become a biblical scholar?

I mean, Hebrew, he knew everything, he was incredible, he was an incredible man. One of my best friends to this day, he's like 80 years old, but he actually works for him and I was like, how do you get up? I mean, how do you get up at three o'clock, 3:30 in the morning and study the scriptures? for four hours before coming to work or three hours and learning Hebrew and all this goes well, you have to go to bed early, so I started doing that. I wake up atfive and I'm four years old, and Sharon and I both got up.

We get up at five and we have a regular routine of uh, I'm on 143 days where I've walked at least a mile every morning. I haven't missed a day and most of the time three or four miles. sharing five or six, but we have that there, you know, we have our coffee, we talk about the calendar and what we're doing this week, we have some prayer time, we have time to delve into the Scriptures, I have a series of Bible processes for the ones I walk through every morning and all of that becomes God. I mean, when I walk, I'm with God, yeah, that's my time with God, yeah, yeah, you know, I used to listen to podcasts all the time.

I'm walking and I leave it, it's just me and God now and cold air comes out of my mouth, whatever, yeah, that's amazing. Is there a favorite place in the world that you have traveled to? Home, no, me, we have been. blessed to be able to go to many wonderful places and you should see this world, it is a wonderful world and God reveals himself in nature. Isaiah says and does it. There are some places out there that make you feel. I mean, we were skiing in the Rocky Mountains last week and you're going diving and to the Caribbean. stand in front of the Hubbard Glacier on the deck of a ship and you will see your own baby being born.

If you can do all that and don't believe there is a God, there's probably something a little off. Yeah, yeah, the last two questions here, um, never mind. How much money do you have? Is there something you will always do like changing the oil in your car? Mowing the lawn or you say this is something I love even if I could rent it. This is something I love to do. I stopped doing most of that so I don't know um yeah I'm a fan of OCD organizers and I still have tools in the garage and I can.

I grew up working on things and with my hands. So I can still go in there and get a screwdriver and fix almost anything and Sharon will help me remember to do it, but if it becomes too much, I'm pretty good at doing it, no, I won't do that. Bring someone who knows what she's doing, yeah, and then, um, but I'm not afraid to take a hammer or, you know, a Phillips screwdriver. Most of the cars I have now I can't work on. I don't know how to work with them, so yeah, I'm in a bind with that, but yeah, I'm with you.

I have never found a tool I don't like, yes, yes, you can go broke with that too, be careful. So it's a costly addiction. Yes very good. The last question is to think. I mean, for me again, there are a lot of new pastors coming up. You know, I'm 20 years old and there are all my friends who are actually in the ministry. What would you hope to inspire the next generation? You know there have been 30 years of financial peace and all this that has impacted the church. What do you hope this next wave of young pastors can maybe take from your principles or how can you do that?

Inspire them to keep moving forward. My belief is that, whether generational or across a couple of generations or a single person, people who follow these biblical principles put themselves in a position to be outrageously generous and I would love to see that happen so widely in the United States. United we give so much of the Christian community that we make the government irrelevant, we take away their power to shove unbiblical lifestyles down our throats because we take their money, I mean if there weren't orphans that Christians wouldn't have taken care of if there wouldn't be widows that Christians wouldn't have taken care of if there weren't hungry children that Christians wouldn't have taken care of if hospitals like St.

Jude's were being built on every corner um I mean what we spend on our pets we can build a St. Jude every 45 minutes , it's crazy and I love pets, but I mean the ability to completely transform this culture, I mean own it, appropriate the culture and change the way people think not only about Christ but also the community Christian has overserved them so much that they can't deny the power of that level of outrageous generosity, man, that would be a great day in America, well, I think I and we will pray for that day to come.

I think this generation has the zeal to do it, but it's about putting your head down and working for it, and Dave, you've been a blessing to all of us and to pastors around the world and I just want to say thank you so much for Today I'm Going Through. some time with us talking about the church and I know there will be thousands of pastors around the world who will get a lot out of this, so thanks again. An honor to be with you, sir, thank you for inviting me.