PRS Cartridges COMPARED! (What to shoot)Jan 14, 2022
travis has some great ideas for prs matches next year in this video we'll help him decide
shootyou have you here from ultimate reloader.com i'm back with travis fox and we're here to talk about prs matches alright because he's got some good targets this year yes sir we did in the past i shot some prs matches some f class matches and i want to get back to that and i want to improve the game and i wish i was better at it that sounds like an awesome target now i hope to
shoottoo this year, but realistically, I'm not going to try to be competitive, am I?
Let's pull him. to get to something i want to be a part of the community and i want to be a part of things but really if you're going to level up and if you're going to be competitive these guys here are shooting these matches and gauss are amazing and it takes a high level of dedication it takes a huge investment of time and money for the components and you already have Ally had to train a lot a lot of practice so maybe I'll focus on building the rifles and you can focus more on shooting rifles and then maybe we'll also let's overlap a bit. cheer me on so let's discuss a few different factors you should go through like a decision tree, if you're thinking about triggering prs or if you've already triggered prs and you're seeing the latest
whatis the current set of options and how decide what to shoot so within the prs arena you have the sniper rifle series you have the nrl two different organizations let's talk about there's quite a variety of local club matches correct local club matches depending on the ground in the Whatever you're shooting, you're going to have different variables, exactly, it really comes down a lot to what match directors have to wear for the competition.
Are you using open ground? Are you in a rifle club? you're what they call consider like a square range so square range guys tend to run more barricade type matches where you're shooting multiple positions from barricades guys with more open ground say that like karstetter match , eastern washington some of those guys are running more of what we consider maybe a match type of course using natural features they are all running with time constraints for each section of shot so their time constraints and multiple positions across the board so flexibility, mobility, ability to use your bags, tripods, whatever other factors that you may have to practice those, there's also different classes as well, there's a gas pistol, is there tactic or you could be shooting two two three or 308 yeah you know and then it's open yeah there's a guy there's a great range it just depends on the game either. tactical match director like he's saying all these different velocity factors is also something you have to take into account most of them run below 3100ft p Second to bullets helps save steel so that we have a lot of factors to consider in choosing your team and what you're trying to achieve, as well as the nature of the match and the way things come together. they're going to affect what team you're going to use absolutely if you're heavy on barricades you're more sensitive to recoil yeah so you know if you want to do a two two three or two two three ai that could be a great option because near zero recoil it pairs with a really heavy rifle but you can see exactly what's going on in some of the shorter range matches uh like sub thousand yard matches where you don't get more than 800 or thousand yards the 223 is a great rifle to shoot for that yeah the open field matches if you're getting more yardage 1200 1400 yards you know it's a little long for that cartridge too uh being able to spot your hits and misses is super important and that might even depend on the weather For example around here if it's rained there's not going to be a big cloud of dust to see oh two things where did I hit which way exactly is the wind blowing towards the target so the calibers go more heavy? to give you a much better signature while the lighter calibers is like where did you go and if you have really bad conditions in the mud or something like that it could absorb a 308 bullet you'll be able to pick up its trail won't be able to larger calibers more recoil harder to spot your trail huh but you can see that shock if you can handle its recoil yes cost barrel life barrel heat huh the recoil different recoil signature also concussive forces right and and blast from a break vs a suppressor all these things and suppressors get hot they get real hot so if you have a whoop like a six creedmoor or something and a suppressor you know you're going to have cover but it's going to get wi alright yeah you'll shoot potentially 8 to 12 rounds in 90 90 to 120 seconds things will heat up nice so a lot of things to consider what we're going to do next is take something different angles and factors and break down some of the data to help us make this decision so one of the first things people often consider is which cartridge is the right one because that could lead you in one direction or another on a lot of things like what rifle platform is. you're going to use exactly you're going to choose the cartridge and choose the bullet and build from there what do you do and everything that stems from what you're trying to achieve as we talked about before are you shooting square range with shorter distances? you shoot at a longer range and you need to have more impact over a wider range and be able to absolutely see that impact so from small caliber to large caliber here we provide a breakdown of these are actually rifles and cannons that we have here at the sh op and we have some data this data here is from some of the loads we've worked with so this data will help you understand what kind of ballistic trajectory and performance you're going to get and just know that your results may vary a bit from this , depending on what bullet you're shooting and what kind of load development you've done you can push a lot of these modern rifles very very hard of course with some downsides to your brass you absolutely know barrel heat and all that and even remember to some extent, so why don't we start with two two three?
This is going to be pretty much the least powerful cartridge guys are going to shoot in a rimless fire event at prs absolutely right two two three. It might be less powerful, it might be the smaller bullet, but I'll tell you what I've probably had more fun shooting a 2-2-3 bolt pistol than many other bolt pistols I've shot because they're so much fun to shoot with low recoil, you can see your back you can shoot them all day it doesn't tire you out shooting some of the bigger things it tires you out over time you shoot you know you hit 50 rounds you're like oh this is tiring two two three i've been shooting it all day and it's super fun it has downsides you won't get the trail you won't get the hits and you won't get the distance right and you can see here this has a pretty extreme drop past 800 yards yeah they tend to drop a little bit on their nose yeah as you know , at 800 yards it's still pretty decent at a thousand yards, wow, the negative difference four 413.3 inches of drop, you know,
comparedto the 200 for the rest of the
cartridgesis pretty dramatic, dramatic, like it drops ron off a cliff yes but with laser rangefinders and we don't have range uncertainty as a big problem nowadays it's not something you can't deal with but like you're falling like a rock there you're pretty susceptible too to the wind too, yes that the slow bullet is greatly affected by the wind, yes, and if the wind blows it away from the target and you have a hard time detecting its signature because it's such a small bullet, you know that's going to exacerbate the problem now one of the things I want people to understand that with the 223 and the 308 it's the same way the rainbow trajectory that bullet has when you get to these long distances what it does is your aim it actually becomes more small because that target is not hitting all of this surface the projection is angled the projection is angled so your target actually gets smaller and makes it really hard so the guys who shoot the tac class the 223 it s 308 and they're making hits at these long distances they have skill yeah Definitely one thing worth noting here is that regardless of what cartridge you're shooting in the competition, a 223 trainer is a popular setup for a reason - there's not much heat in the barrel you can focus on the mat h and the course instead of the recoil and blast of the barrel just right the cost and availability of components is great you can even do two two three trainer things you know with bulk military ammo or something like that absolutely many many options so i'm thinking i should build a two two three trainer it's a good idea just a little bit ok the valkyrie is coming up to the valkyrie i'll talk about this one because i actually shot this rifle in a match the finley cup and it's interesting because you go from two to three ballistics to very similar ballistics to the creedmoor class. here we show the hornady 108 eldm loads to the right 260 inches of drop
comparedto 288 yeah now you're still pretty susceptible to wind and you don't have as good a signature which was my main problem i couldn't really find my misses and i couldn't see my trail too but ballistically very very good at a thousand in good condition I fired a group of four shots sequentially that was yeah inside that well that's because you've built good guns this is a good gun and if you look at the story of uh burger 80.5 uh laser beam we have uh that's where that group came from and that load we're showing here actually and then i'll also talk about the next 6 dasher i mean this is really the best of all worlds i feel like if you look at the ballistic data here we basically had the least amount of sag and the recoil is minimal absolutely manageable especially on this rifle where we have weighted down there we have that area 4 arc lock 19 with weights yeah internals and it's a real joy to shoot right it almost feels like you're down in a two or three it feels a lot like that yeah uh now and we're going to get more to this i It's a special cartridge so You have to be prepared to do your own loading and not have as many components available, especially at the price.
You are not going to buy them off the shelf. of time shooting our zeus rifle back here we have the three barrels that we've shown here the six the 25 and the six five tell me how you feel about that in terms of ballistic performance we'll get to the rest of the factors in a moment ok ballistic performance are all are all amazing similar all to me all feel good the six creedmoor has very little recoil its a low recoil rifle too but not like the 6 dasher its not not like the 6 dasher but it does have low recoil.
I have a 243 bolt gun and this creedmoor 6 tends to recoil less. I think it's heavier, super accurate, super fun to shoot quite a bit of laser. in this one so you start doing quick shots and you, you can start to see that mirage a little bit on a hot summer day it's like you tend to get off target it starts to wobble a little bit but it's a lot of fun to shoot very flat and then you approach the target. 25 creed plus though with that 135 burger I really really enjoyed shooting that or the 131 blackjack which is correct or the 131 blackjack yeah that's the first one that came out now the 25 creedmoor is becoming a favorite for some people because you can fill this prs niche you may feel like the nrl hunter is the smaller bullet for a neural hunter we can talk more about that but you can shoot that weapon on both classes so it's great to shoot the 25 creedmoor although it's you losing the ability of the bullet options is a bit harder to find you may have to create a hybrid die where you have a bushing size die that changes the bushings and makes it work and it works very ok i mean we've had good luck with that but yeah a d then you go to the 6'5 creedmoor and i started running the tip 135a and the creedmoor 65 you can push it a little faster than the 140 than the 143 you push a little faster um it's a bullet m oops fancy it's very fast great bc and you can find those many places the creedmoor stuff you know is everywhere so it's kind of a new cartridge of all you almost have manufacturers like prime that are producing factory ammo that is suitable for prs i've had really good luck with a lot of the factory premium federal ammo yes my six creedmoor and my 6'5 creedmoor surprisingly well so yeah it's definitely nice to have those kind of options if you want use a rifle Off the shelf it's going to be a lot harder to find something special like a Valkyrie bolt gun that's proper or a six shooter you know that's proper and we'll get to barrel life but it's a little low medium high .kind of thing actually absolutely with the six creeds the 25 creeds and the 65k bar so you know looking at this data in a table is a little hard to figure out so let's take a look at the graph and you can see ithere how we have this group of trajectories alright uh 223 remington is the absolute outlier i'm serious like you said it's dropping like a rock at 600 it's really good as you can see it's still pretty close in the group with the rest of them but boy once you get there it's not very pretty it's interesting with the loadout we chose here and the bullets we compared the Six Creed and the Six Five Creed are almost exactly the same and then the 25 Creed and the two, two, four valkyrie are also almost almost as interesting and the six dasher wins them all so that's kind of an overview of ballistics and again our rifles our loads you'll see all kinds of different variations on these results through Next let's talk about some of the other factors so what we have here are some of the specific factors that are especially important we wanted to rank them together for each of these
cartridgesthat we're on speaking so you want to talk about setup yeah so this is of course our thoughts on this in the recoil part of the factory here i went into grt gordon reloading tools i put a 12 pound rifle with the barrel 24 inch on all of them I programmed the bullets we were using the uh velocity we were using and it gave me recoil foot-pound energy there so you can see the 223 and the valkyrie have three foot pound energy the dasher was six the six cremor was seven and then the 25 creed and the six five creedmoor was nine foot-pounds of buttstock energy so this doesn't take into account a lot of the variables you'll have in a real rifle and we're working in scientific instrumentation for recoil analysis so stay tuned for more on that but it's interest It's important to note here that you have a triple recoil factor for the 25 creedmoor and the 65 creedmoor edmoor compared to the 223 remington and there are cases like the ones i will use hey yell out Matt Hornbach i know you are really big on low-recoil rifles, especially when you're shooting positionally from barricades, because if you break up the sight image, you're kind of screwed if you can see where your mistake was and can make up for it with quick follow-up. shot which is a huge advantage absolutely now of course with that smaller bullet you're going to have a harder time seeing the signature yeah so it's at the same time definitely you know there are these offsets I guess so so let's go on as for the wind factor and the wind factor that we see here is a combination of the velocity, the ballistics, the bc of the bullet, and the density of the section of the bullet, and it's pretty obvious to look at the graph and figure out what that's like. i'm going to go to the t the 223 is going to have the most effect because of the wind the valkyries then the dasher and then the creedmoor now the 25 creed and the 6'5 creed if you look at the ballistics uh the 25 creed on a 135 bullet is on actually a higher bc and higher sectional density so they're running pretty close together yeah and note that you know 25 is between six and six five you have 243 257 and 264 you're not right in the medium, it's definitely closer to six five yes, but it's interesting to note that you have less recoil and recoil is probably the main reason you would go from a creek six five or down to a creedmoor 25 now i would note if you are just starting out prs focus on the fundamentals and just go for a good cartridge like Six Creedmoor if you are willing to deal with poor barrel life and barrel heat and all of that would be a great trade off of all of those factors the availability of everything and all of that as your skills progress and it's not just about if I can find the targets and that's it You know, mag in, go back and through the stage in 90 seconds and hit four different targets at four different ranges, then and when you can deal with the wind and can read the mirage then you're maybe I'll think about the difference between a creedmoor from 6-5 and a 25 creedmoor and I have a lot of work to do on my own shoot to fully get into that space, that realm where there is something meaningful. difference between the two and you really have to do this regularly.
I was bummed out by my placement in some of the games and then I talked to all the guys that were in the middle of the pack and up and found out they were all shooting 10-plus games a year, yeah, and that's about it, every game is a major commitment you're driving somewhere you're getting ready you know putting on the match barrel if you got a training barrel and all that stuff so just don't get discouraged go there have fun and you know go there to raise his own abilities those are my main motivations it will also make him a better hunter so then we come to this follow up hit and again this is pretty obvious the 223 rounds the remington and valkyrie are both the distance hit its going to be hard you could be shooting the same bullet as a hamburger 77 otm would work fine on anyone yes absolutely a bit more speed on the valkyrie but that wont help you a lot seeing your signature no yeah so the dasher and the six creedmoor you're going to have an acceptable impact now the dasher and the creedmoor that 105 110 grain bullet tends to hit pretty hard at times on some of the closest targets for hope you can get a good splash out of them but then of course the creedmoor and then the creedmoor 65 will give you the best the best splash yeah not much of a difference between the 25 and the 6.5 not right so the next pros and cons, so let's go back to our high-level summary of the things we've already talked about.
We really tweaked it a bit so that the Remington 223 has low-recoil, low-cost availability pro components. you can shoot this all day it won't be that expensive and it won't tire you out the barrel life is super good too yeah yeah true very true yeah you probably can how many thousand rounds do you think you can get out of two two three six thousand plus oh at least yeah now the cons in a match you can have a low impact signature you're going to have just the trajectory just isn't there it's right you won't be able to hit those long range targets very easily but it's going to take a lot of practice to do and, sometimes it may not be feasible if you are in a high wind situation where you have 40 mile per hour winds which is not unheard of right?
It might be a lot less realistic to hit that. distance yeah I'll say a local club match at a square range grab your 223 bolt gun and have fun with it cause they're great to shoot you know especially as suppressed oh my god yeah if you don't have a 223 consider a 223ai, maybe you'll get a few more. feet per second just don't lose your head yeah definitely there's another pro here that we didn't think of or at least put it on the graph here you can run in the tactical class sure the tactical class is a smaller group of people in the match and if you're lucky you might have less competition and you can shine and then you have to deal with the challenge of maybe using a correct 223 or a 308 instead of whatever your optimal cartridge is, absolutely yeah so we step up to the 224 valkyrie where we're still going to have low powder volume if you're reloading and just as low cost there and low recoil once again but you get a step up in your speed so that will help you. we're going to have another low signature low impact signature and d windage again the other thing with the valkyrie and coming to the dasher is you're going to have to have an adapter in your magazine you'll notice in this gray here that the cartridges are shorter ones you can't run the full length yeah there's actually a follower in the back here on the right and not a follower but some kind of spacer on the right the follower is custom 3d printed this is primary rights it worked pretty good but not as reliable as something like a 6.5 creedmoor 308 a cs mag this mag is for the dasher and this is a factory offering from mdt and it has worked great not as good as a factory cartridge in a factory round but really really good yeah and then another con about the valkyrie is that it's a custom gunsmith type of situation where the bolt face is basically 6 8 spc and that's pretty specialized and it's hard to find a bolt gun with that bolt face the guys at the landmark actually took my bolt and opened up the bolt face tha I filled in a little bit and then machined or whatever and I did great but just know you know if alright there are some factory offerings for valkyrie and a bolt gun its more of a special thing yeah on that note on the 224 valkyrie uh another consideration you might have is if you have a faster 22 250 you might run that too just keep your speeds down please and don't ruin the steel because it could definitely could go almost a thousand feet per second over oh yeah so we go down to the six dasher and again with this this is this is Gavin's this is Gavin's baby here low recoil high high speed flat shot low powder volume so while you have a special item here and you have to have a special brass for it like alpha ammo and it's absolutely amazing you're not using that powder high volume to get the velocities you get with this thing it's an amazing cartridge so really really good too you k now that it's a six there's a lot of really good shells the hybrid burger 105 the burger 109 and then we run the hornady 110 ateps they all shoot this particular rifle super super well so i would list it as a pro though all these bullets except the 25's are really pretty prolific in terms of all the options yeah so we got the cons Of the six sliders like I'm talking about the brass it's not everywhere, the custom magazines again and a bit of a lack of splash. on those distance targets yeah with any six that's a compromise yeah yeah if you don't have a six dasher you have a six something like that maybe you could run a six more creed too I mean yeah yeah everything is exchange. offs and then we'll talk about that at six creedmoor now there's a lot of guys shooting that factory ammo flat shot low recoil shot uh very popular cartridge you could cut six five creedmoor if you needed um many many bullet options oh absolutely just like the dasher, yeah now the con on this one you can smoke your barrel on this and you can get mirage on a hot summer day with a lot of rounds coming down let's talk about that for a second the numbers I've heard are as little as 800 rounds with a barrel out of six creed which is pretty bad with the 25 creed you're going to be somewhere in the middle with the 6'5 creed 2600 rounds maybe something like that so you know you got 25 degrees 1800 rounds or you know something, something like that , you could go you could double your barrel life by going from six to 25 for example potentially all of that barrel life depends on how you fire the gun you know this competition rapid fire under time the marco will cook your barrel yes if you are just using this gun to shoot for fun it can last a lot longer a significant amount longer because you are letting the barrel cool down between shots but those throats erode so fast because they are they understand that the heat built up on them and it's big yeah so if you don't have a Six Creedmoor do you have a Winchester 243?
Go shoot it at the competition, see how it works, yeah you'll get near exact speeds. Yeah so we go down and talk about that 25 creed it's unique it's kind of a weird ball people can be like oh wow you're shooting a 25 creed cool flat shooting a big hit because you get a 130 bullet at 135 grain depending on which one you're using, but that kind of problem becomes a lack of bullet selection. specialized dice. They are a bit harder to find. The boys are shooting in competition. you're going through a lot of consumables and the supply runs low you're stuck and that could be a problem yes definitely and then 70 winchester yes if you have one if you have one and hopefully you can see this what we're trying to get you guys to do is if you want to go to shoot a competition tition and you've got a rifle just go do it just go try it you know I didn't mean the pun but and then there's a bunch of y'all who have the 6'5 creedmoor okay ammo factory everywhere is the most mass produced ammo in the US right now even more than the 308 from what I've read it's pretty crazy yeah yeah so it's a great popular selection of components um , now if you're reloading and want to shoot h4350 sometimes that can be a little hard to find but it's stable there is a videotore in 550 or 555 that we have found to work well.
It will give you more recoil depending on your bullet selection, but it's popular, available, and everywhere. they are really good for certain in huntingApplications you know like the Six Dasher I would totally embrace deer hunting any day of the week if I knew I needed to get a long shot you know and I wanted this rifle as my hunting rifle which would be absolutely amazing Six Five Creedmoor really, very versatile you know whatfor a wide variety of different hunting applications it takes you to the highest level there so anyway all that to say if you also want to hunt with your competition rifle I think that's a pretty good scenario and you know you could know how to influence in your decision now you might also want to run the nrl hunter class properly so if you're going to do that then as we were talking about 6.5 prc earlier that's the cartridge I think running we have here and if you look at the 65 prc next to it's little brother the 65 creedmoor you'll see some similarities but basically it's a bigger bore it's got the magnum bolt face it's got more gunpowder capacity it's a magnum n version of the 6.5 creedmoor which is really awesome because , as we're finding out with our ballistic gel tests, you know speed matters, you know a couple hundred feet per second can make a world of difference to what the h channel absolutely looks like. wounded and what is your expansion.
It looks like we didn't put 308 Winchester on this list, you know why, because probably the best reason is to race in that tech class and people race 308s, people have success with 308s, but now it's more of a specialty. I know the cartridge isn't that crazy it's really crazy so mainstay and I'd rather go down to a 65 creedmoor yeah or some of these other options well it's pretty amazing to shoot a 308 then shoot a 65 creedmoor the difference recoil is significant it's substantial yes it really is and I think the 65 prc is actually a little bit easier to shoot than the 308 I felt like yes yes so I hope to shoot that 6'5 prc in a nrl hunters match this year i like it yeah ok now let's help Travis think of his dream rifle ok after all that. deliberation on which cartridge(s) you think you would pick easy peasy pick the six dash or the 25 creed nice why i like how they shoot um they are super fun though it will depend on the match and where the match is and the conditions for that day of which way i would love it ok so what are you going to wrap around your 6 dasher or 25 creed chamber ok the original chassis would be the basic stock i love that feel of that stock or element magnesium chassis xlr? we've got some weights on this one we've run this chassis on 22 rimfire we've run it we've run the dasher on there and the dasher we've put it like almost every gun on there this is my 308 trainer I put on here with the athlon which is this midas tack right here so i really like the chassis i've always liked the chassis but the base and the way it feels that kind of dead feeling it has is so nice to photograph and it's heavy i like the fact that it has a lot of mass if that's what you need and the cheek piece is adjustable i like everything about it i'm a chassis guy but either one is perfect well the chat the element would give you the flex lets say you wanted to adjust the weight so you know the hunter class or for prs, you can make it lighter if you want. i need you to really be able to load it up if you had some positional shots where you're going to be even more sensitive to recoil well what about your action and what about your cannon and what about your i love those bad deeds we're gonna do ? be running the bad deed the tr yes absolutely and the benchmark barrels uh yes benchmark benchmark yes i mean this what i like about the tr i have run a prs match with it is uh it works super slick its just that it's hard to describe it's super slippery even when you're racing it was in a dusty environment and i was talking to bruce tom on that machine about his strategy with that and that was something that was actually intentional the agility but also the reliability you know not they're running the kind of tolerances where the moon dust will just bind everything together okay yeah which is pretty good okay so what about the optics?
So, um hmm, I don't know, I mean there's the optics and then there's the reticle, both of which are super important to the look. probably one of the athletes huh we have a couple different ones with a couple different reticles that I like I love the brand a lot this reticle on this one we have honestly not my favorite I like some of the other reticles are a little bit better but man the dials on this thing are so nice they're so nice and we know it works really very very faithfully reliably because of the groups I've shot with this rifle so I can probably get past the reticle on this one so I bet you'd be between this and the chronos the chrono look how the atlon yeah that's really very clear yeah yeah so my other option that I'm looking at is I'm trying to debate about I really like shoot muffled I like to shoot muffled all the time it's so good you know we use mufflers on our cars a proper fuel filter no fuel ya know muzzle brakes are great for elevation control muzzle ion and in a competitive environment muzzle brakes are better than suppressor because they control that barrel and keep it level still mitigate recoil better so you know what I would write maverick because its the best of both worlds and you can set it too safe , but then we have these air cart tuner brakes oh yeah yeah and that's why I put this is why I put the tuner brake on the 308 trainer we're going to see how that works to tune it for air management recoil one of the biggest advantages with the ec tuner brake is you know in a prs setting you want to have a very you want to pick a velocity and you want to work exactly you will get a constant velocity but that allows you to tune the harmonics of the barrel so that you also you can get optimal pooling and I think one of the biggest advantages probably saved you a lot of time instead of having to find the overlap of those two worlds from the precision node and the speed node which was what i was going to do i was going to find a speed i like with a low sd then tweak that baby alright alright so two questions to y'all first should travis shoot the six dasher or the 25 cred please vote one way or the other the second question if u gonna shoot prs this year what u gonna shoot what cartridge what rifle tell us all thanks for watching guys yeah we got a lot of work to do we will keep you posted this It's going to be a lot of fun this year with these matches so make sure you're subscribed with notifications so you don't miss anything that concludes this video and that means it's time to wrap it up.
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