Michelle Obama talks parenting, partnership and turning your rage into change | NPR

Well, former First Lady Michelle Obama, thank you for being here to talk to us about

your

new book, thank you for having me, the book is called The Light We're Overcoming in Uncertain Times and I have to tell you that I read Becoming and this is a really great book. different. The process of

turning

it into a book was obviously a very intimate thing: peeling back the layers of

your

personal history, your family history, which I think a lot of people have wanted to know for so long, but this book is more practical, it's like a guide, almost Yes, I call it a tool. kit I mean, I think I'm like everyone the last few years, we've been struggling with, you know, economic uncertainty, pandemic isolation, injustice, it's left us all feeling grumpy, so I get a lot of questions from the people.

For example, how do I manage and given my motto, when they go down, we go up, a lot of people these days have been struggling to figure out how to stay high when it seems like the world is in a low place, so this book is my best book. I try to give people at least a glimpse into my toolbox, the practices and habits, the people that keep me balanced and hopefully it will start a conversation because I think that's a lot of what we feel like we've been left out of. with each other and we feel disconnected and need to get back together and discover each other and figure out how we adapt in an inevitably uncertain world.

One of the things you said in this book is that when you broke free, they became several. Years ago it was like a breath of fresh air after your family's time in the White House, so I'm curious because you're about to go on your book tour as you bring this book to the world. If that was a big sigh if that was a release, what does this process feel like? Oh, you know, every time you put yourself out there in the public, I'm no different, it's scary, yeah, you know, I mean, I talk in this book about how even though becoming a breath of fresh air, there's something about becoming vulnerable.

In the world we can make it look easy but we still go through that process of self-doubt, did I share too much? How will people receive the truth I have to offer? I know I'm in the same place with this book. My hope is that people will find something useful in it and I have spent my time alone with this book talking to myself and the few people I know. I've let us look at it now. I am sharing these thoughts. They have senses? Do they connect with people? Do they resonate? I don't know, so there is still a fear, a doubt, a vulnerability that comes with any project I undertake.

So I feel a little nervous. Know? What strikes me when I read the book is that you become vulnerable, not just about yourself, but you talk about your marriage. We heard about the fact that your daughters are now dating. Where are you talking about? this idea of ​​having a comfortable fear of actually being able to tap into that fear, how did you think about the things that you shared with all of us with your readers about your family's life? Know? I always have to strike a balance of how much, huh. sharing will help people and how do I make sure I protect my family's privacy?

But I think about my writing like I think about everything else I learn from stories. I never want to produce anything that seems like a didactic sign of pointing the finger at everyone. I have my own authentic truth, so I feel like if I come from that place and I got permission from my family members, then I feel good, there's a lesson here, so when I talk about my relationship with my husband, it's because I know that there are many young people who are trying to figure out how a marriage is formed, how a relationship is shaped.

I'm fascinated by how little we talk to young people, young adults, about what it really means. partnering with someone and what those commitments look like and you know pushing them to answer questions for themselves about what are you trying to get out of this relationship with this other person. Have you thought about it carefully? Are you looking for a wedding or want a wedding? relationship, those are two very different things, so in the chapter called partnering well again, I share my journey with my husband, the things that stood out to me, what I was trying to find in another person and how it worked in the course of 30 years. years we've been around, we're now celebrating our 30th anniversary in the hopes that you know it will create a conversation among the next generation of people who are trying to start building their lives, what are you looking for in a partner, what do you have to bring to a relationship with yourself so that it is complete and healthy.

I have something that a lot of people are curious about, I think, and you've written about this, they've idealized your marriage, and they sit there and look at it, but you've always been very clear. It's very honest to say that marriage makes it work, it takes daily work and it's not always glamorous and you've had some very unique stresses, but there are also the stresses that any of us who are in a relationship or married face, as Whoever the race is going for. first or who takes on the childcare work, how do you think? Is there any advice you would give to people who are thinking about how do you do that work for a

partnership

that has lasted?

Yes, it's not really just one piece of advice. it's for me it's a philosophy it's a perspective um you know in this era where we want everything now we want everything fast you know when life is everything but that um marriage is that we have to understand that marriage is never 50 50. um and you know, you wonder how that idea came about. um, I've found that if you stay with her, you know, over the course of your entire relationship, you might get 50 50 over time, but if I look back at my marriage, if it were Judging by year five or year 10, I would never there were 50 50.

Someone was always giving more, someone always needed a different type of thing, you have to evolve with that, so yes, there were times when I felt like I had 70 percent. I came in and he was doing 30 percent, um, but I think and I had to compromise, just like him, I had to compromise because of the decisions that I made in terms of what I wanted our family to look like. Taking my foot off the accelerator of my career. Never brake, but brake a little. Those are the natural compromises that are required and I feel bad when I see young people give up on their relationships because there are periods of It's hard, there are periods of discomfort.

As I've told young people who ask me about marriage, I thought you have to be prepared to have long periods of discomfort and, I mean, it could last for years and not put kids into the equation. because that's just another layer of complication: you love them to death, but they will rock your marriage and turn it upside down, so I think it's important for us to be honest in those conversations and not embellish how a couple feels because then it's young. people give up too soon, they give up before they've really developed the whole scenario, so one of the things that I loved and that was a thread that developed throughout this book is the changing relationships between parents and children and, in particular, between mothers and daughters. and you wrote a lot about your relationship with your mother, who we all know played a pivotal role in living with your family during your years in the White House.

I'm curious to know what that's been like for me as your relationship evolved into both. adults who now have adult children, what does that look like to me? I think it's a beautiful journey, you know, one of the things that I share, you know, a kind of unique wisdom that my parents brought to their upbringing. I share it. in the book, but something I admired about my mother is that she had a clear philosophy about

parenting

, which is unusual for someone of her generation, there weren't all the books about what to expect and the Doctor Who books about how to do it. mother, but there was some common sense in that approach that she brought to raising children, but she always talked about it, she said, "I'm not raising children, I'm raising adults, um, so I always had an interesting conversation, open and honest." My parents and I were encou

rage

d to speak at an early age to find our voices.

She made sure we felt heard. She made sure to take our concerns and problems seriously. They never treated us like children. It should be seen and not heard. So when you have that. Foundation, you know your relationship is always. I feel like at least with my mom and I've tried to do that with my daughters, it's been on a course of constant growth, but you still have to be ready for your kids to evolve, you know who they are. You're four and seven years old, that's not what they need from you and what they need from you is very different from what they needed from you as teenagers and then again as young women, but if you've laid a foundation of trust and honesty, every stage that I found is wonderful.

It's full It's exciting I don't miss any stages I loved all the stages of raising my daughters but I wouldn't go back to any of the stages I don't miss the time when they were babies I love that moment of breastfeeding when you know you could sit down and hold them and to look at them forever, but now that they are young women, you know, and now I am less of a day-to-day manager and more of an advisor, there is freedom to enjoy. them as individuals to watch them grow and I think that has been the case for me and my mom with her daughters as well, although have you been comfortable with the idea of ​​stepping away from that manager role and letting them lead, letting them be the people who make you and your husband like you say weak martinis when you come to visit his apartment I couldn't stop laughing when I read you know well that's a hard thing to do to let your kids be um you know in this age of

parenting

by helicopter, you know, I think parents are maybe too involved in their children's lives.

I was raised to have my skills passed on early. You know, my mother raised her as I write in the book, she says her job is to try hard. from an early job, so he started at a very young age, demanding that we be independent, you know, as early as kindergarten, he gave us alarm clocks because he knew we were capable of standing up on our own, he wanted us to feel the power of our competence, so from the age of five I was setting an alarm shortly after I walked to school alone and what that means for a child when your parents trust you you know it, it encou

rage

s you it tells you that if my mom believes I can do this then I must be capable and have tried to instill that same kind of "Stand by the door and watch your children fly." Be there for them when they return.

Let them know that you will be their advocate, but don't jump in and try to do it. They live their lives for them, and so when I see my children thrive in that way, when I see them owning all of their decisions and succeeding and failing on their own terms and growing from that process, it's one of the greatest experiences. satisfying, it's terrifying. It's scary to see your children hit a brick wall, but that's growth and you already know it, and many parents try to stop that process, but that's the quickest way for them to learn to recognize their mistakes and recognize their victories by Same time. but you have to adapt, I mean, I'm talking about how you know that when you let your kids go, you're letting your heart out into the world, that Barack and I do these kinds of crazy parent text messages to check in.

I know how to write things that keep us awake at night. Barack texted them one day about earthquake preparedness because they live in Los Angeles now and that's the kind of thing you do as a parent and you're like, uh, oh, there are earthquakes, I warned you. They're prepared, so in the middle of the night they sent out an article about a 10-step plan that includes, you know, getting earthquake training and stocking up on water, and one of my daughters' response was, well, which one of these? things do you believe? We should do it because it is very good, but it is our own anxiety that manifests itself.

Do you know what I missed? Do you know what else I can feed you to make sure you are safe and healthy? But the truth of the matter. It's that we don't control that and as a parent it's a hard thing to accept, since your child is you, your child grows up and is out there in that big bad world, it's that you can prepare them and love them all. everything you can and you still have no control there are no guarantees that their life will turn out well and something bad could happen that is the most difficult thing about being parents is living with that truth but the alternative is to prevent them from growing up and that, in my opinion opinion, it would be the sad result if my children were sitting safe in my basement or in their rooms at home, feeling comforted by the fact that I knew what they were doing and where they were, but not in control of their own lives.

I think that would be the saddest outcome, so I have to remind myself that you know when I feel the need to intervene, but that's why I tell people that being a parent is hard, it's not just hard because it's hard, It's difficult because it's emotional. You are in your most vulnerable space. um, now I could go on and on, but I write a lot about that in the book. One of the other things you mention in the book is that you are very open and honest in acknowledging the fact that you have support and help and have received help throughout your life in raising children.her children and points out that any successful high-income woman who reports that she has it all and does it all has help, so I want to ask what a disservice we do to people, especially women and caregivers, when we don't all recognize and we're not as transparent about the fact that we have help, especially given that we're coming out? of a two to three year period that's put so much strain on our care infrastructure in this country, well, that's the trope that we use as women and that we're supposed to be able to do it all, you know, and me.

I don't know where that came from. You know, when I look back at the women in my life. You know it was a real need. You know the matriarchs in our house did everything as black women with men whose opportunities were limited because of Jim Crow and segregation, you know, where a black man was a bigger threat, so a black woman could have more consistency in her earning potential but still had to maintain the traditional wife and mother role of cooking and raising children, you know. I look back on my personal history and I can see that you know that's what modeled us, that the mothers in our lives did everything you know, mothers, they worked, they took care of the home, so we're emulating that, particularly as women of color.

You know, that's a sign of strength, you know, so we don't ask for help, we're not conditioned to think that that's not a weakness, so yeah, I think it's a disservice when those of us who are here modeling it don't do it. . I am not very clear about the fact that we are not meant to live this life alone, we are not destined. I think we are not meant to be single parents. You know the whole concept of a nuclear family. You only know me, my husband, if you're lucky. and children and this is our unit and we live independently, that is a fairly new phenomenon for our generation.

You know, for decades people have lived in extended family units. You know, I wrote about that when I came. I grew up in a community surrounded by family. members I had maternal grandparents around the corner paternal grandparents uh you know down the street we lived above a great aunt's house we saw each other regularly our families cousins ​​together almost every weekend celebrating birthday parties and I can't think of a time where you had to have a babysitter because there was always someone pitching in, someone would show up, you would go to someone else's house, so now here we are in our generation, many of us have moved away from our family units, our supportive communities and We are in some city with a great job still trying to emulate what our grandfathers, grandmothers and parents did, that doesn't work, you know you need it if you are working outside the home because we all work inside. from home, you know there is no shame in getting support, your children will value it, they will appreciate that you are less stressful, now the guilty part of that, if you are a woman who has the resources, is that we all know women. that they don't have that option, so sometimes we hide it because it's like, how am I talking about a babysitter and this and that?

When I know that there are women, my peers, my cousins, those who don't have that support, are doing as much as me, but they can't afford it, they don't have access to affordable child care, they couldn't think of having a babysitter, you know, no. They have flexibility in their work schedule, so part of that. It's that there's a kind of survivor's remorse for what you're capable of doing, but I think we still need to talk about the fact that family units have to be based on a large community of support. There's nothing particularly brave about it.

Doing life alone, you know, but you know, if those of us who do it aren't honest about how hard it is and what it takes to do it well, then we're reflecting the wrong things on the generation. to come and I don't want to do that to my daughters, you know, yeah, one of the things that you go through in the book and you talk about several of the ways that your life and the journey that your family has been on has been incredibly exceptional, but also You talk about some incredibly relatable experiences, like the isolation of being the only one, whether the only woman of color, the only black person in the room, or being the only person who didn't come to a university for money, and I wonder now, after Of all these years on the journey you've been on, if you still feel that way sometimes and how you handle it.

Yeah, honestly, of course, like Michelle Obama, you know, I feel it less acutely, but that's pretty recent. You know, I mean, when we were in the White House we were the first and the only ones at many tables of power, seeing people adapt to that, that reminded me a lot of the experiences I had, you know, going to college and practicing in a corporate law firm and sitting on the board of directors uh seats and so on um but what I discovered over time and I write about this is you know we can't

change

that reality um unfortunately we're still breaking barriers, right?

It is unfortunate that the percentage of students of color on college campuses remains relatively dismally stagnant. The same is true and if you look at corporate law the number of associates and partners in large firms has not increased significantly so we are still struggling to make progress so in the meantime we are dealing with the reality of the fact that yes , we're still trying to fill those seats, so how do we get through in the meantime? um, because when you're unique, there's uh how I describe it. There is a feeling of walking around trying to navigate a town or city with a road map that doesn't fit, you know you are playing a game by someone else's rules, you feel isolated and disconnected at times outside of your own body and what happens.

When that happens is that you start to feel self-conscious, you spend more time thinking about your loneliness, you carry that burden instead of focusing on the task at hand and that makes getting through all of that even more difficult, um, what I had to do. learning to do was to get out of my own head first, it's not easy, although it's not, it's not an easy thing to do and it takes practice, but part of what this book reminds us is that there are no miraculous answers to these things: overcoming to the impostor. feeling like you belong right syndrome um there isn't a this is these are the three steps you need to take to feel well seen it doesn't happen that way for me I've practiced trying to get out of my head for 58 years now it's a daily reminder of that I have to take the mask that I'm trying to hold on my face, take it off so I can see what I'm doing and by mask I mean stop trying to stop pretending to be something I am Don't try to fit in and leave the parts of me behind that make me real and authentic.

Stop worrying about how I wear my hair and what someone is going to think about it. You know, stop thinking about how I conjugate my verbs or what stories I tell. on myself to make myself fit into the world of another person who gets in our way with that, but it takes practice and I open the book urging young people to read it to understand that patience is an important tool in developing their own set. of tools what I can do now the messages I tell myself now at 58 are very different from the ones I needed to tell myself at 20. but now I know that I have understood all my life that I have been practicing being the only one to calm my doubtful mind and then speak up and use my experiences as source code while telling the power that I really have and letting them know that it doesn't happen overnight, but we have to keep telling ourselves that I'm going to show up. in the world as my authentic self and that is enough, that is the work we have to do.

I wish there were shortcuts, um, but it is what it is. You mentioned patience and that's something I wanted to ask you about yourself. I mentioned earlier the call to action that many of us know for when they go down, we go up and in a past life, before I had this job, I was a political correspondent and spent a lot of time traveling around this country and talking to young people. in particular, and what I hear a lot, and I'm sure you also hear this from people who write you letters or attend events that you organize, is the fact that they want to believe in a world where heights will be reached, but they have a sense of urgency they often express that they feel a sense of rage given all the pain, harm and marginalization the insurrection attacks the rights of lgbtq people antisemitism I could list the laundry list that could follow how is it related going high with the urgency that many people, especially young people, feel right now.

Well, that's the interesting thing because some young people interpret that some young people interpret that going up high is being complacent, you know, going up high doesn't mean sitting on the side of the road and watching, you know, injustice. Going high is about having a strategy, a concrete and real strategy for

change

, it is taking anger and

turning

it into reason so that you can really be heard and move towards change, so when I think about going high, I usually think of a moment in which I feel anger and feel the need to react. I have learned to ask myself: Am I giving in to my anger?

What I'm about to do or say will make me feel good in the short term, but it won't have any impact in the future. long term, because the goal is impact, ultimately, you know, that's what Barack and I had to do every day in the White House. You know, I used to play this game with my communications people before an interview or something. I would go through the questions and there would be some question that would be what I call a dumb question, you know, and I would practice my real answer correctly. I shouldn't say true, my instinctive response because sometimes I just interpret it. out loud helps get it out, but then when you put your first gut reaction out there for the world to see here and then you look at it for a minute and you're like, ah, well, that's not even how I really feel, you know, um and What will be the result?

You know, there will be half the country that won't even hear the rest of the solution. If I start there, if I start with my rage and my anger, all I will do is express my rage and my anger. but I won't be able to affect any changes. Going high is about the end goal of where we are trying to go and what is the best way to get there and over the course of history, especially in the history of civil rights, there was fury, but there was always the plan. . You know the March on Washington was the cherry on top after decades of legislative action and strategic meetings.

You know that the March was neither the beginning nor the end and that is what we have to resolve. discover what the true beginning is and where we are trying to get to. There is room for anger in the sense that you know there is and there is urgency in it. The other thing I try to remind young people is that it's easy to look at what the press says. your predecessors have done it and say not enough why not why not faster why not better why not bigger and what I am saying is that young people are not wrong to feel that this is why people need to get off the path and pass, you know, pass on the power of the Next Generation, but what we cannot lose sight of is that each generation in this movement towards whatever change it is is setting the marker that it can at the time that it works within the limits with doubts at the top of the history from which they come, it is of no use to us to be angry because people are not our team did not make more people are doing what they can with what they have and I can guarantee you that this generation of young people who complain about the lack of urgency will reach our age and their children will look at them and say why did they do it faster the nature of change is hard work it is a marathon and it will never feel like enough because until everything is perfect It will always be urgent, but in the meantime, what I urge young people to do is be angry and own it, but have a plan, have a strategy that can work, know what it is, be thoughtful about it. reach out and make sure what you say is really what you mean and how you feel in the long term and not just today.

You know, it strikes me as you write about how imperative it is that we still need to go as high as we are. Coming out of this period where we've all faced so many challenges tomorrow former President Trump is expected to announce that he's going to run for president once again and I'm wondering if you talk about this toolbox, what's going on in your head and what tools? Do you reach for it when you think about something like that oh i i i and my husband helps me with this? I think in the context of the history of our country of our world and I realize that you know this is a moment, this is a moment and we can't allow one moment to turn us so upside down that we can't function, you know. , the Arc of change not only goes up, but it goes up and down, up and down, and that is why in these moments I tell myself that I ask.

Myself and this is a chapter I call the power of small. Okay, what can I do right now that I can uniquely control when I think something is about to happen that I can't control? TRUE? Voting isone of those things that you know doesn't seem like much, you know, it's a small action that happens on a Tuesday. Every two years, it would happen more if people voted more and also focused on their local elections, but that's one of those things you know if you don't. I don't like the guy who runs the power that we have in our democracy, no matter how small, is that each of us has the responsibility and the right to vote at least now, so let's exercise it, you know, so that we are.

I'm not in a position to take it for granted and have those rights taken away from us because let me tell you, if we don't, if we don't use them, if we don't protect them fiercely, even when the person who won is not someone. those of us who agree with will lose those rights we've seen it with uh abortion rights we've seen it we've experienced it, I can't tell you how many times we've been campaigning over the last eight years and we've said this election is important, you know, because the Court Supreme Court is at risk, you know that it matters who is on the Supreme Court. v Wade, you know, he's in danger and watching election after election people don't turn out, you know, because they didn't like that guy, they were angry about the fact that why he's running, you know, and it's not necessarily Trump, it's anybody. that you are right. the gubernatorial race the federal prosecutor you know, we stay out, no we don't do the job because we're angry about who's in um we have this little power, each of us to shape the direction of the country and if we do We do, I don't use it, you know, I mean, you know, I never want to raise my hands, but I think what are we going to do in this democracy if we leave it for my First Lady Michelle Obama.

Thank you very much for spending some time. with us today thank you it has been a real pleasure thank you very much