Jamie Dimon on the Economy, U.S.-China, Overseas Wars and More: Full Interview | WSJ

- Jamie Dimon, thank you so much for sitting down with us today. I spent a lot of time this weekend reading your letter, and my main takeaway was that you have a very clear idea of ​​what's good for America, what's good for the

economy

, and what's good for J.P. Morgan. What in your mind is the biggest threat to that secure vision? - So every year when I write that letter, I try to think about what the most important things are, and I would add to that the free Western world, because that's what worries me the most, you know, the war in Ukraine. the terrorist activities in Israel, you know the thread that that is drawing between Russia, Iran, North Korea, China, the difficulties of our time with China, all of that is a challenge.

But you know, we would call it a free democratic Western world and to me that's the most important thing: that we do everything right. - Well, I want to get back to the geopolitical context in a minute, but now I want to focus specifically on the

economy

. - Good? - As CEO of America's largest bank, you have unparalleled insight into the financial health of the American consumer. What are people doing with their money right now? - Then you have to look at the context a little. The consumer is in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment has been below 4% for two years.

They still have money left over from Covid. If we look back at the amount of money that was spent during Covid, it was $6 trillion that basically went into the pockets of consumers through various means and various programs, they are still spending it. If you look at the bottom 50% of income, they pretty much overspent. So we're back to where they were: the top 50% still have excess, housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are well on the way up at the bottom, the consumer is in pretty good shape because businesses are also in pretty good shape, because people are spending and making profits.

The only thing to be careful about is that much of this is driven solely by tax spending. - MMM. - So even today, the 6% GDP deficit, you know, almost $2 trillion, drives much of this growth. And that will possibly have other consequences in the future, you know, called inflation, which may not go away as people hope. So when I look at the range of possible outcomes, you know, you can have that soft landing, I'm a little

more

concerned that it won't be as soft and that inflation won't completely go away. People are waiting, I'm not just talking about this year, I'm talking about the 25th and 26th.

Rates may have to go up a little

more

. I'm talking about the 10-year rate, the five-year rate, and you know we can have consequences, so we'll see. - But now you describe a fairly rosy picture and, even so, we know that consumers do not feel it. Why this disconnection? - Yes. Well, here you have to look at different consumers. So America's poorest 20% haven't fared particularly well over the past 20 years, and incomes have barely increased. In fact, they are starting to do so for the first time in almost 20 years. Remember suicide, fentanyl, crime, inflation, there are many negative effects.

Some people can't get mortgages, can't buy the house. Their jobs are still paying. You know, I think 25% of jobs in America pay $15 an hour or less. So, yes, there is a part of society that is fighting, there is a part of society that is not, and I think that's a different question about how we approach politics. But you know, you can see why that bothers people. And then you see a lot of other things that, you know, people look at in the world, they're worried about geopolitics, they're worried about politics, they're worried about polarization. So there's a disconnect with respect to the economy and, as you said, confidence levels. - So, going back to the soft landing of the letter, he admits that he was on the hardline side, but then things developed in a more benign way.

But you still are, it's a bit of a grudging concession. You yourself sound quite sad in the letter. - Yes. - Can you tell us a little more about why that is? - Yeah, so I'm not looking at a year and I'm not making a forecast, I'm trying to say what the range of possible outcomes is. And last year and this year it would publish the same numbers. Huge amount of fiscal deficit, huge amount of QE, we don't

full

y know the consequences yet, part of it could be inflation. Many things in the future. Inflation, the militarization of the world's green economy, obviously the deficits, which you know, are basically not going away as far as the eye can see.

And that puts me on this, and geopolitics, all of that puts me on the side of caution that things won't turn out as well as people hope. Again, that's not a 24 hour forecast, I'm cautious. So I think I said in my letter that the odds of a soft landing, the market prices at 70%, I think is half of that. And therefore the chances of something different happening, you know, are 65%, etcetera. And then, you know, we'll see. But I don't really know, you know, as a business person, I try to be prepared for all that, it's just a little cautious, it feels a little more like the '70s to me.

And I point out to a lot of people that things seemed pretty rosy in 1972, they weren't rosy in 1973. So don't be lulled into a false sense of security, because today seems fine, and tomorrow will be fine. . So I'm just trying to separate the two. - Continuing with the current situation, is Bidenomics working? - Partially? You know, when you spend that kind of money, you're going to have growth. And you know, I think if you look at the binomial economy, there are parts where we needed something, as part of industrial policy, I think the infrastructure issue is fantastic, it was bipartisan.

You know, there will be other things to see. So, and I think some of the American public looks at it as, what are they getting? - MMM. So if you go to rural America or inner cities, I'm not sure they feel like this economy is driving them. - Do you think Jerome Powell is doing a good job as chairman of the Federal Reserve? - I have great respect for Jay, I think the Fed was probably slow to raise rates. They caught up, they're probably waiting, right? And looking right now, we don't know what's going to happen, you better wait.

It is very difficult to predict the future; I have always told the Federal Reserve that they should stop forecasting. I mean, obviously, data depends, you know, when someone makes a statement, you know we depend on data. They say, "It doesn't matter what the data says, we want it anyway." Well, they can't, so they should wait and see. But they may have to tighten up a bit and we don't know the

full

effect of QE either. Again, I'm a little more cautious about this. You know, most people have the general feeling that you can reduce the balance sheet by several trillion dollars and its effect will not be felt.

I'm not so sure we've never had it before. So it's never really been tested. And the one time they started to reverse QE at one point it caused some ramifications in the market, I hope that happens again. - So, if we go back a year, J.P. Morgan helped with the mini banking crisis. It wasn't the first time you stepped in at a time like this because in 2008, of course, you bought Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual. How did the experience of 2008 help shape your approach to last year's banking crisis? It wasn't like that at all. I mean, 08 was a real crisis, Bear Stearns was much more complicated and so was WAMU within it.

This was much simpler, we thought it was the last domino because only a handful of banks had the same problems of concentrated deposits, too much exposure to interest rates, etc. So I said it was the last domino, as long as rates didn't go up and there wasn't a major recession, because if that happens it will obviously hit the banks again, so it was a completely different thing. We wouldn't have done it if it hadn't helped stabilize the system, we wouldn't have done it just for ourselves. I point it out in the letter, because people always look only at the financial side of it, but in reality, 10,000 people on the first day who were working on projects looking forward, went to do projects looking backward to consolidate 165 systems, rules. , procedures, etc.

Although it was a simpler bank and part of the profits were simply made from our own capital liquidity. I tell people you don't have to buy a company, you know, and thousands of people can just buy assets to do the same thing. So part of this had nothing to do with the First Republic. So the financial results are good, but we would try to be honest about where they came from. - So, how is the integration with the platform going? - Good, it's going great. You know, obviously it's always difficult and complex. It would mostly be ready by the end of May, so you might see some customer complaints because when you do large, complex consolidation systems, obviously certain things can go wrong and at the very least some small things go wrong , so by the end of May the year will be completely finished. - Moving now to geopolitics, we have

wars

in the Middle East and in Europe that create an enormous amount of economic uncertainty, if we focus first on the Middle East.

Do you think the United States' position regarding the war between Israel and Hamas is correct? - I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself, I believe that war is a terrible thing. I think people have to be honest about what war is, you know, and when they look at these civilian deaths and all that, so I don't know the details in the military. I think the idea that they are not going to defend themselves is wrong. So I'll let the military experts decide, you know, what's the right way to do it? Every general I see on TV, and I've talked to several, you know, the conflict in the city is really bad. - MMM. - And you know it's door to door, a higher number of civilian casualties, you know Hamas must have known there would be a big reaction to what they did.

By the way, it is unjustifiable for any reason. so I want to be clear about that. - And then we also have a war in Ukraine where, you know, Ukraine is clearly fighting Russia. What would it mean for the global economy if Russia won? - It could be, I repeat, I'm going to bet on this, it could be a potential disaster because you know that this is the first war in Europe, a free and democratic nation invaded by two or 300,000 Russian soldiers under the threat of nuclear blackmail. So, you know, we've never had nuclear blackmail before, which is also teaching the whole world.

You know, maybe having nuclear weapons is a pretty good thing because people will be afraid of the union. You can, you know, abuse a neighbor if you feel like it, it would be on the NATO border. You know, obviously NATO is rearming right now, but the other thing is affecting all alliances. So all the military alliances, all the global economic alliances. The Iran-North Korea-China nexus makes it, in my opinion, very difficult for the Sino-American relationship because we are on different sides of that. They say they are neutral, whether they help or not, clearly we are not neutral.

If Russia wins, personally, we might see a lot of people deciding that, you know the United States will defend Europe? Can you trust them? And if you can't trust them, what are you going to do? And that includes the economic, that's why I talk about the economic battlefield and the battlefield. So, from an economic point of view, each nation should say what gives me security, what gives me security in energy, food and everything that I need. So I'm a little worried that if Russia wins that war, we'll see the world go into a little bit of chaos as people realign alliances and economic relationships and so on.

The telling thing is that after World War II, Bretton Woods, the Marshall Plan, the reconstruction of NATO, the WTO, all these structures were established that actually led to a very secure world, American taxes took out thousands of millions of people. get out of poverty and basically peace. There are many small

wars

, but basically there is peace between all the great powers. You know, if that breaks, who knows what it will be replaced with. - Well, I thought that was a very interesting part of your letter where you talk about the need for this new global architecture and it's the kind of broad thinking that, as you know, we don't often hear from world leaders.

Can you tell us a little more about what that architecture would look like? Give us an example of what you're talking about. - Yeah, so I'm not sure it has to be that new, we just have to go back and see what worked and what didn't. But I look at the Western world: economic alliances must stay together and we must help the rest of the world. So, Bob Gates writes in his book "A Symphony of Power" that we have abused, and perhaps misused, our strength.military. We have underutilized economics, intelligence, development, finance, diplomacy and all those other things.

So you know we need American leadership. It should be done with our allies. It can't be done, you know our way or the highway, it can't be done. You know, the United States is known to, you know, take advantage of a situation, which we don't normally do, but together, trade development, finance, aid to nations and then, you know, reform these agencies, which clearly some don't. It does not work. And you can debate which one you want, but in order for you to know that the trade is right, we have to negotiate. I would re-enter the TPP.

I think our government is going to start talking about trade. I remind you that we have trade with these nations. So when they say we can't talk about trade, they already know it. Why can't you talk about improving it? And of course the TPP would be a geostrategic home run, economically great, geostrategically great, our allies will love it and it will bring everyone closer together. And then it will also be possible to negotiate with China from a better position of strength. So you're not trying to keep it out of everything, you just want to set it up in a way that you think works for the free and democratic world and it seems like a lot of these people would like to destroy that and so we should. everything we can to prevent that from happening. - So, China is complicated, obviously, because on the one hand we have a lot of trade with China and the supply chains are integrated.

But at the same time, we recently reported that China is helping Russia's war effort and that there is now a US proposal to sanction Chinese banks. What do you think of this approach to China? How should the United States approach China? - You know, I would tell America to take a deep breath. We have all the food energy we need, in the Atlantic and the Pacific, without wars in North or South America. The foundation's gifts follow the power of freedom, which I write about there, which is extraordinary in terms of people, ideas, innovation, entrepreneurship, 80,000 GDP per person, China imports 11 million barrels of oil a day.

Your very complicated neighbor, your own actions are causing all your neighbors to rearm: Philippines, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, India. Not because of the United States, it is their own actions, they are scaring their neighbors. Their GDP per person is 15,000 dollars compared to ours 80. You know, they've had some good innovation, which, you know, God bless them. And they depend on 11 million barrels of oil a day, I think half of which pass through the Red Sea or the Hormuz Islands, guarded by American warships. So you know we're in a very good position. We have to restructure commerce around national security, a no-brainer, like how we got there, who knows, I don't like to cry, but I spilled the milk.

But whatever we need rare earths for the F35s, you know the ingredients for pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, you know important and related semiconductors where it could be used for military purposes, it could include AI, lithium and some other things. Obviously we should use a resource friendly font or something. I would engage with China, have a very tough conversation about what we are willing to do and what we are not willing to do. I would do it thinking about our allies. Not, you know, America our way or the highway way. So when we did the IRA law, I'm not against it, but it was clearly from the United States to the United States of America and it really irritated a lot of them. - MMM. - And I don't want to destroy our economic relations either, that's why we must be very thoughtful, they need oil and gas.

So I think L&G is very important for you strategically. So I would negotiate with them on all that and I'm glad they're doing that. So if you listen to Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan, Janet Young, they're starting to get involved and they should be very clear about what we need, what we want, and we should listen to them. You know, they might have some legitimate issues and complaints and we'll do the best we can. As long as Ukraine is there and does something to help a bet, I think it will be very difficult to have a good relationship with them.

And I think you know that this in Ukraine is real. And you know, I don't know what exactly I saw in some of these reports. I'm glad the government has the authority to do certain things if, in fact, some of them are true. Yes, they should impose some sanctions. - Good? - But, by the way, they should expect some impact. - Now I want to address internal affairs and the upcoming elections. We're in the very unusual position of knowing what a Trump presidency is like, we know what a Biden presidency is like. Who is the best candidate for the economy for 2024? - Okay, I'm not going to get into that kind of stuff now.

And whoever the president is, we will try to help. I really hope whoever the president is tries to reach out to the other side. You know, Trump would put some Democrats in his cabinet, maybe Biden would put some Republicans in his cabinet. I would like them to put many experts around them. Not just academics, but they meet professionals in the real world, because I think it's important to implement the right policies that are good for both America and the world, and that's what I hope for. - How about you as one of the experts? I know you're sure your name has come up in the context of a new Federal Reserve chairman. - He would not be President of the Federal Reserve, nor Secretary of the Treasury.

I don't think I was ever chosen for that, so. - You travel a lot, you talk to a lot of people from all over the world. What are you hearing from the rest of the world about the upcoming elections? - Most of them understand how important it is to the Pax Americana and how important the Pax Americana is to them and how divisive it could be for them. They wanted to be mature and polite. They want it to cover everything. They wanted to help developing nations in the global South a little more, there's all that, but they want American leadership.

And the United States has many allies. And if we reach for our brochure, a lot of people will take that hand. And you know, even the non-aligned want more from us, so that's what we should do and we should do it very smartly. I think the battle line in Ukraine is America first. - MMM. - That is the fight for democracy. I hope America has learned that the world is not a safe place. We need a very strong army which should be a no (indistinct), and if that doesn't go well, it will close in on all our allies and we will have to defend them.

And if we don't defend them, one day it will be on our shores. So you know, we have learned lessons, we learned them in 1941, we learned them in 1917, we will learn them again and I hope we don't. - Even in the elections, Donald Trump's critics not only do not agree with him, but they think he is a threat to stability, he is even a threat to democracy, what do you think of that? - Obviously I hear all those things. We should not attribute to an individual why they vote for Donald Trump or Joe Biden. They do it for reasons other than a very simple thing.

Some do it because they think growth is better, regulations are better, or that the United States is first or defender, all for different reasons. I think people should learn to listen more. Take a deep breath, try to think like a citizen and think that it's good for the long-term health of the country and that's what I hope people do. - You listen, you tour rural America, what do you hear? I asked you, what do you hear from the rest of the world? What do you listen to when you go to the United States? - People are worried, you know, as you pointed out, the economy is pretty good, but they are still worried.

And like I said, there are legitimate reasons why your groups of people are angry. That doesn't mean their policies are right, it doesn't mean they're exactly right, but I think we should listen to them more. Now, why are inner-city schools failing? Why hasn't income increased for 20 years? The United States grew at a rate, I think a little less than 2% for 20 years. I think that's anemic, I think we should be, why? You know, and why can't we do a better job for our veterans and veteran fans? Why can't we do a better job for kids, wherever they graduate from high school, if they graduate from high school, even if they don't graduate, have skills that allow them to get a job that makes $50,000 or more?

They are all there, everything can be done. They can all be fixed and there is frustration in my letter, I received George McGovern's letter about, you know, bureaucracy. He realized that he helped create laws and regulations that, in his own words, which I approved of as good intentions, I didn't realize the unintended consequences, what it means for jobs and the ability to hire and the growth of a business and even litigation. He says it's, you know, frivolous and that not everyone who fell in front of my hotel was my fault. And how costly it is that we are demoralizing people.

There's bureaucracy, our lack of collaboration, I think, you know, it demonizes companies. I mean, I think there are a lot of things we could do to fix it and I hope people do. - Could you ever consider fixing it yourself? No, I don't think I'm a politician, then. - Okay, you are not a politician, but you are a CEO and obviously there are a lot of pressures at work. You had a near-death experience about four years ago. - Yes. - With your aortic tear and before you had had a big cancer scare. How did those experiences change you? - The cancer scare was cancer. - Yeah. - I don't know, I probably have a little PTSD from all of them.

And I think it's hard to say, but obviously, I'm going to use a word, but I got it from another journalist, Julia Baird. I read it, something she wrote in Australia about trying to live life a little longer. deliberately. So nothing, it's not that they love me, I love what I do. I love my job, I love my family, I love all those things. So nothing really changed that way, but it's a little more deliberate, you know, and what's best for the world and you know, more things like that, but those things change a little bit.

And I still deny it, and then someone reminds me, I'm like, oh yeah, I went through those things. So when they took me to the operating room for the dissection, I knew it was 50/50 and I had no regrets. So you know, because people always said, do you regret it? I told him no, I love my family and luckily they were all there. But no, the only thing I would say is that I want to help this country and the free Western world that I have in mind, maybe that has changed a little. - Yes, I mean another traumatic moment you experienced was the 2008 banking crisis for obviously different reasons, but what lessons did you learn about leadership when you took J.P.

Morgan through that turmoil? - Yes, so people ask me, what did you learn? I didn't really learn about leadership. First of all, it's like you have to go to war with the army and people say, "What did you do differently?" So I always believed, I always saw the world as a range of outcomes that I was always prepared for. And you know, of course, I grew up on Wall Street and I saw a lot of crises and we had bankruptcies and companies went bankrupt and scares and panics and the market fell, was it 25% in one day in 1987?

So I was kind of used to that. So the risk committee met once a week, five times a day. And instead of being a more structured meeting, it was unstructured. I would say, Emma, ​​you have a problem. Bring whoever you have, but don't wait, bring them and have them wait outside. And they met at 5:00 a. m., at 10:00 a. m., you know, Asian time and any time they would call people in the middle of the night, people would work seven days a week, client by client. Remember that we have thousands of customers during this crisis, even before Bear Stearns and WAMU and, by the way, including governance.

So the lesson is to be prepared in advance and have risk committees in place and all they do is just do more. And I remember I flew home from Saudi Arabia, the city's stocks were tanking, and I canceled my trip. I came back just to, just to be there. I basically spent the next three days twirling my thumb, right? But it had to be there. - Yes. - And then just being prepared and ready and also reacting quickly, getting the right people in the room, having the right conversations and making quick decisions. - And now, I want to say that there is a new, I wouldn't call it a crisis, but there is a new challenge that banking is facing and it is in the form of AI.

How do you think that will influence your business? - I think there are many things, so I think AI is a real thing. So, you know, I don't know what's going to grow like that. We're on a straight line and I think people waste too much time guessing that we have 2,000 people redoing it. We have about a hundred people involved in just research on artificial intelligence, synthetic data, you know, looking at data. And we also bring AI and data together because they are directlyrelated. Now we have someone on the board, a very capable woman who is responsible for both.

And then within each business we have mirror groups, you know, AI people and data and commercial credit cards, consumer, asset management, etc. We have already run 400 use cases and are testing LLM with our own data. We are testing LMS with our data, as well as external data. Used for risk, fraud, marketing, idea generation, error handling. We are building agents that actually make decisions. So, you know, you might have a customer complaint, we know what it is, they'll actually decide to send you a new debit card that doesn't go through any person, we know what happened and therefore it's real and you , we should learn it.

And for me it's fair and also every time we meet as a management team, in every business, what are you doing? Yes, what are you doing? So the other trick is not that technology makes people say, how can I use it? And once they start using it, they realize its power and it will be exceptional. It will create jobs, it will eliminate some jobs, it will make everyone more productive, it will be used by the bad guys. So we already do things like, we recognize your voice, we know who you are and you enter our systems.

In fact, we identify it in many other ways. Bad guys can take a second of your voice and replicate it and fool our voice recognition system, so we have to improve ours to capture that too. We don't use voice just to let your readers know how to move money. It's just one of the many things we use to make sure you are the person you say you are, so it's very important. It will change many things. I think for health, I think it will cure cancer. I mean, I've already seen things where new molecules are designed to attack specific cancer cells in a way that the human brain couldn't imagine, you know, it's reading radiology, I think which I have been told better than a radiologist can read.

Is now. It will take data from your blood from the last 30 years, your RNA, your DNA, that in your blood system you know if you had measles and mumps and all those things to determine what you might have next, and it will. change the world. Your kids will probably live to be a hundred and never get cancer, you know? So, and that's a great thing. Technology, on the other hand, has always done this, always done great things for humanity, with some drawbacks: plane crashes and drug abuse. - Yes. - You know, for the steam engines and the buildings burned by fire, you know, and then we power the fire trucks, so it will be used and it will be something exceptional, have you used it yet? - Yes Yes.

With mixed results, but like you, he's careless. - It's still not right, you can do it. - Yes, but if you all go to Bing or something, you can summarize a book, invent something, generate ideas for yourselves and thus think about JP Morgan. We have huge amounts of data that other people don't have that we can use to do a better job for you. Marketing systems, operations, security, protection, idea generation, etc. So we announced something called Chase Media, which effectively is you can come in, you know, the Wall Street Journal can come in and say, we want to contact this guy, you won't know the names, we won't.

I give you the data. These types of people make these types of offers. - MMM. - And you know, at some point we'll do more of that. - So this is the latest, cutting-edge digital technology you're talking about, how it's going to change the world. But at the same time, you're busy building very old-fashioned branches, brick-and-mortar physical branches in hard-to-reach communities, what's that all about? - Yes, since I arrived at (incomprehensible) in 2000 and at J.P. Morgan in 2004, it was like clicks, not bricks. - Yes. - They were closing people who were making profits of a million dollars a year.

Remember that the goal in life is not to satisfy ourselves because we are guessing about the future. The goal in life is to satisfy you, because you are the customer who uses our products and services. And we still have almost a million people a day going to the branches, you know, despite the digital account opening, you know, of 60% or I have the exact number that are still open in the branch. People like to visit their money. Branches are much more advisable nowadays. So I'll tell you about one I'm opening soon in the Bronx. So in that branch in the old days there were 12 people, mainly operations, checks, money exchange, deposit taking.

But now it's advice, small business advice, investment advice, mortgage advice, budget advice and it's eight or nine people. So it has morphed into something different, but it is still valuable to the consumer. And remember also that when we build a branch, we also end private banking and small business businesses, we help the local community. They like that, you know, so it has benefits. And so, in the community branch, we have 16 of them. They are bigger, we hire locally, meaning in the Bronx. So it's a local community. When we have food or art, it is made locally.

The construction of the branch and the renovation is carried out by the local population. And then we run financial literacy classes to teach moms and dads and kids how to save money, get a mortgage during a business and they've been great and the communities love them. You know, I'm doing local press, so I'll do like the Amsterdam news, the Harlem news and wherever you go, it's very local press that, you know, gets the word out and they've been great. . And then we started the community manager, so each branch had a branch manager. These branches had a community manager whose job is not to run the branch, but to go out to local businesses, little leagues, nonprofits, churches and synagogues and invite people in, and it's been fabulous.

We now have 150 community branches across the country. Community managers who reach the community and you already know, and generating business. - What do you ask the managers when you go to visit them? - Who comes in, what works and what doesn't work? What is holding you back? I always love to ask, what are the stupid bureaucratic things we do? Just trust me because every company does it, and even if it wasn't yesterday, you probably invented a new one today. And then we change it, you know, what works, what you would do if you ran the branch and what you would do differently.

You know, sometimes you have ideas like, well, I changed the hours, you know, we're running it, you know, nine to five, I'd run it, you know, eight to 10, you know, whatever. So we learn, we always learn. It's amazing when you look at it, the work we did in Detroit generated advanced black roads, generated job skills initiatives, generated the Detroit Service Corps, generated virtual call centers, because of what we did in Detroit. Now we are doing it in cities around the world. And then you learn a lot when you go out on the road. - Now you have been CEO for 18 years and you are obviously in a very powerful position.

But even the most powerful people, powerful leaders need checks and balances, who keeps you in check? - Well, my wife would probably say yes and she would say yes. But I think that in my management team we are all very open, we all share everything. I move them, you know, in ways you wouldn't hear me do anywhere else. They respond with their emotions, you know, you're wrong. You didn't read it correctly, you missed this important point, so it's a very open conversation. I don't think any of those people are intimidated by me, you know, and there's very little conversation after the fact like, okay, I didn't want to bring this up in front of everyone, they're brave enough to bring it up in front of them. from anyone.

And you know, I've had people, you know, three of them come up and say, Jamie, you're making a mistake. Sit down, we want to explain it to you, don't say anything, okay, tell me. So you try to create a very open environment. And then we also have regulators, auditors, press. So, believe me, we received a lot of comments from a lot of people, even in the press. I always tell people when sometimes it's wrong and we have a knee-jerk reaction. I always start by saying, are they partly right? Like breaking it down into pieces, you know, so maybe there's something there that we should fix, even if we thought the story was too skewed.

Separate the two, don't have a knee-jerk reaction to every complaint you receive. - Just to get back to what's happening now, the current news cycle with these very polarizing issues in the United States. Do you think that's the kind of thing that CEOs like you should be discussing publicly or making statements as a company? - The answer is yes. If it is appropriate and you know how to do it. So, you know, it's pretty clear from my letter that I'm like a patriotic, red-blooded, full-throated, free-enterprise capitalist, and I'm not embarrassed or embarrassed. I also recognize that we have left part of society behind.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging it and trying to do something about it. So, you know, we do a little bit of both. And so I think it's very difficult for people to make a mistake sometimes when you look at certain laws and they're passing laws and people are screaming saying you have to support this. But if you read it and we read it, when some of these laws apply, read the 50 things in it, you and I would agree with some and disagree with the others. We are then asked to make a binary decision. I said, no, we're not going to do that.

That is why we will support the LGBT community. We will support free, fair and secure voting. I don't have to get involved in every little act of voting that every state puts in place because, you know, some are harder than others, but most of them generally, you know, are free and fair and safe, so you have to be a little bit of care. But when it comes to defending our people, we absolutely will. - MMM. - When it comes to elevating other sectors of society, absolutely. We thought about lifting up, you know, parts of the community, I remind people that J.P.

Morgan is getting closer, we are in a hundred countries, we reach 12,000 companies, 80 million Americans, cities, schools, states, hospitals, military. We hire veterinarians, we hire disabled people, we hire and we also reach out to disadvantaged communities. And I mentioned that community branch and they work, generate business and help improve society. You know, if you can take it, I always say that, and we use Detroit as an example. If Detroit was a bankrupt city and is no longer a bankrupt city, that's good for the rest of America and it's good for Detroit; We happen to be the largest bank in Detroit, so it's obviously good for us overall.

And then, you know, we worked on it. We also work and I always think it's important for business people, one thing for me is, we do skills initiatives in New York, you know, the CEO jobs council in New York trying to get, you know, and we've helped . We hired, you know, 30, 40,000 CUNY kids and now we're doing programs with the mayor and the chancellor of the Department of Education in high schools, all started by my wife, by the way. But we also, and I think it is important, for companies to get involved in public policies. We can do all we want, but if we can make the public education system better, the VA system better, the FA system better, the highway safer, the bridge safer, that's good for everyone and that's why I think businesses They should be better involved in public policies as appropriate. - So they often ask you, when are you going to retire?

And their answer is usually five years from now. - Yes. - So, 2029 is the year? - No, I stopped saying that. First of all, it depends entirely on the board of directors, we have wonderful people. We've always said that I'm one of the few people who has a president who could take office tomorrow. And not many people could say that. And if you talked to people who know the company, they would tell you that there are four or five people and they would feel very comfortable running the company. You know, they're moving them to different jobs.

They are very good, they are very happy, I am very happy that the board decides. I think I would tell them when I can't do my best anymore, I'm all, I shouldn't do it, I should move on at that point. But you know, I still have the energy and the ability and I still think I'm aging well in terms of you gain wisdom as you get older. And I hope you can add value to the company and my country through this position. - I have some final questions here, they are short questions that require short answers. - Ah OK. - How many days should people be in the office? - Five is ideal.

There are some jobs where, you know, taking a day or two at home is fine, it's a very specific job. - Are America's urban centers dead? - No, I think some are going to have difficulties, due to their own policies, but no. - If you are young and want to work at J.P. Morgan, whatshould you study at university? - It almost doesn't matter to tell you the truth, because you are looking for intelligent, ethical and decent people. You know, whether you took history or not. But I do think that in business you should learn the language, your business, which is accounting, and learn a little bit of basic business.

So I think it would be useful to do accounting, financial markets, something like that. - On the rare occasion that you take a day off, what do you do? - So my daughters told me: "Dad, you need more hobbies." I love my family, so we have a lot of family dinners when I'm around. We have mostly Sunday nights, maybe Saturday nights, but I told them, these are my hobbies. And we do a lot of this together, we walk together, we take vacations together. I love wine, I love music, I love history. In fact, I try to exercise every day.

You know, I just started playing squash again, which still worries me, but I'm going to do it, but I was doing it with my 10-year-old granddaughter, so. - So you say you love music, any type of music in particular? - Almost every. - All. - Yes. - Eclectic - Rock, Jazz. Jazz is the only one that doesn't, but no, it just doesn't, it doesn't resonate for some reason. But you know, I grew up with classical music, I grew up playing classical piano, I can play the guitar a little bit. By the way, I'll get back to it soon too.

So I love Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, you name it. - What is your morning routine? - Okay, I usually wake up at 4:35. I read five articles and you will be happy to hear them in a very specific way. Then I skim through the post, because everyone else does. I read the front page of the Washington Post, any story that I find very interesting and the business section, which is very limited and the editorials, I think there are very smart people in the editorials that I then read the front page of the New York Times. section, from beginning to end, whether I like what they say or not, I read their business section, which is not very good.

Then I read the first Exchange section of the Wall Street Journal and then the FT and the reason I read the FT last is because everyone else is so biased towards the US and, you know, we operate in a hundred countries. So the FT gives you a better view, as does The Economist, I read The Economist every weekend about what's happening in Pakistan, India, the UK, the Middle East and China, and The Economist is incredibly good In fact, the FT covers all that ground too. . So I love it if you know it takes me an hour.

Then I read a lot of other things, by the way, so much internal email, Axios, you know, Politico, things like that. So I like to read, I do it for hours in the morning, but then I like to do a little exercise and go to the office. - And do you ever turn off your phone? - I'm not a fan of the phone. I don't even have it here, I have it outside, but I think people should spend a little less time on that, a little more time thinking, I haven't done podcasts. When I work out, I'm making music or watching some stupid show or something.

So, but I'm not a fan, I'm not on any social media. Every year I try it, I literally keep going for just a week to see what everyone else is doing. You know, Reels and Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and then I click out. - I never tried it. - Not good. Well, Jamie Dimon, thank you very much indeed. - Emma, ​​it was a pleasure, thank you.