Israeli Historian Ilan Pappé on Interrogation at U.S. Airport and “Collapse of the Zionist Project”

this news is funded by viewers like you, please support our work at democracynow.org this is democracy now democracynow.org The War and Peace report I'm Amy Goodman with Juan González as we continue our conversation with renowned Israeli

historian

Elam Pape, professor of history and director of the European Center for Palestinian Studies at Exiter University, joins us now from Doha Cutter and there is a long delay when he answers a question. I want to ask you, Professor Pape, about this trip he took to the United States. Recently, when he arrived at the Detroit

airport

, federal agents questioned him for two hours about Gaza, Hamas and other issues.

US agents only allowed her to enter the country after copying the contents of his phone. Can you tell us what happened? Yes, I will do it. Make that Amy, but if I may, and I think she connects with our previous conversation, I just want to say that there is something bigger here than just the question of whether the IC and Israel abide by it or not. I think it is a Moment of Truth for international tribunals like the ICC and the ICJ because they would be faced with governments that would probably not implement the rulings because Israel still has very strong allies and I think the rest of the world, especially the global South, would be We're looking to see if the terms Universal and international really mean anything, so I think Palestine is just one case among many where we now have a real struggle to redefine what is universal, what are universal values, and what is international justice. , and I think that's why it's such an important historical event.

Now it's time to go back to my ordeal, which wasn't that big, but I think it's part of a bigger picture. I arrived in Detroit after an 8 hour flight from London and was immediately taken to a side room by two federal agents and they had two. series of questions for me, one was about My views My views on Hamas My views on what is happening in Gaza Do I frame what will happen in Gaza as genocide? They wanted to know my reaction to the slogan Palestine should be free of the river For The Sea they refused to tell me why they detained me, why I had to answer these questions and then another series of questions had to do with who do I know in the American Muslim community? , the Arab American community and the Palestinian community in the United States?

United States and that was followed by taking my phone for a long period, copying everything on it and making me wait another time to have phone conversations before letting me enter the country. Can I ask you exactly, Professor Pape, what did you answer when you said what do you consider that a Palestine will be free from the river to the sea when they asked you if genocide is being committed in Gaza, etc., yes, well, to the questions of: Do I define Hamas as a terrorist organization? I refuse to answer that question and suggested that you come hear my talks in the Michigan area where I will discuss this topic.

On the question of genocide, I said laconically that yes, I frame Israeli actions in Gaza as genocide, but again I suggested that if you want a more detailed analysis of why I frame it that way, you are welcome to read my articles and attend the conferences in the Michigan area regarding the question, how do I answer? To the motto Palestine should be free from the river to the sea I said that wherever there is a river and a sea and people living among them they should be free, which was a bit of an ironic or comical moment when one of them tried to show me their geographical knowledge and He said what about Saudi Arabia?

So I corrected my sentence and said, "Well, anywhere there are countries between two sources of water, people should be free," which seemed to satisfy them at that particular moment, uh uh. I have to say they were polite, I don't want to describe it as a test, they were polite, but what really bothers me is why do they have the right to ask me and what was the real subtext of this whole thing and me. I have my own understanding of that, although I don't have all the facts before me and the professor, you have been speaking to large crowds of young people around the world and many of the protesting students who are protesting in support of the war. in uh uh against uh Gaza uh the U one of your books the ethnic cleansing of Palestine has been read a lot uh in uh in the last few months uh could you talk about this that the coup or the cleansing of Palestine didn't just happen uh? in 19 uh uh 48 but there has been a process of ethnic cleansing going back even to the British mandate period and, uh, when the British suppressed the 1936 Arab revolt against British rule yes, in fact, uh, the nakba is a It is a bit of a misleading term because in Arabic it means a catastrophe, but in reality what the Palestinians suffered was not a natural catastrophe but rather ethnic cleansing, which is a clear policy motivated by a clear ideology and that policy was an integral part of the Zionist program. uh uh for Palestine since From the very beginning of the movement at the end of the 19th century, of course, from very early on they did not have the ability to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from their Homeland, but almost already by the mid-1920s, when the The Zionist community in Palestine was still very small.

Through the purchase of land in which there were many Palestinian villages, I was able to convince the British mandatory power to evict 13 Palestinian villages and that was between 1925 and 1926 and then, slowly, this process of purchase of land and eviction of the people who lived on them. This over hundreds of years led the Zionist movement to a point where they bought at least 6% of the land of Palestine, which of course was not enough and then they proceeded to the great ethnic cleansing of 1948, but as we know, It didn't stop. In 1948 Israel continued to expel Palestinian villagers between the ages of 48 and 67 from among the Palestinian minority in Israel who were supposedly citizens of Israel.

Israel expelled 300,000 Palestinians during the Six Day War in June 1967 and from June 1967 to today about 600,000 Palestinians in one way or another were dislocated and uprooted by Israel and of course now we have a magnitude of ethnic lens or a case of ethnic lensing that even exceeds the magnitude of ethnic lensing during 1948, so there is not a single moment in the history of Palestinians in Palestine since then. the arrival of Zionism in Palestine in which Palestinians are potentially in danger of losing their homes, their fields, their businesses and their homeland, finally Elon Pape, as you express, in recent months more Palestinians have been murdered than in any other moment of the last 76 years. um more Palestinians have been forced to move they have been displaced uh so what happened in the nakba uh at the time of the founding of Israel what gives you hope you are an Israeli

historian

esteemed around the world you have less than a minute yeah, I would say What gives me hope is that I believe that the Zanis

project

in Israel and Palestine as we see it today does not have much time to exist.

I think we are seeing important processes that are leading to the

collapse

of the Zionist

project

, hopefully. the Palestinian national movement and anyone else involved in Israel and Palestine could replace this separate state, this oppressive regime with a democratic one for all those who live between the river and the Sea and for all the Palestinians who were expelled from there since 1948 Until today I believe that this historical process has begun, unfortunately it will take time and the next two years will be very precarious and very dangerous, but in the long term I have high hopes that there will be a different type of life for both Jews and Arabs between the river and the mar Under a free and democratic Palestine Elon Pape professor of history and director of the European Center for Palestinian Studies at the University of Éxitor happy belated birthday to Seine Day and today to Tam Mar audio I'm Amy Goodman with Juan González Democracy is now funded by viewers like you, please donate today at democracynow.org SLG