How To LET GO, MOVE ON & HEAL From A Toxic Relationship! | Dr. Ramani & Lewis Howes

One thing I would tell people is don't be ashamed of your triggers because I think what people say is I don't want to be triggered. I say no, you know you don't have that line in your sympathetic nervous system, it will always be faster than you, because it will always be faster, we have to be aware. I think you must have a dream, the school of greatness, really, yes, welcome, we were talking about this beforehand, that this is one of the biggest challenges that people face. modern society is understanding and navigating narcissism, how to understand if you are a narcissist, understand if there are people in your life who have these tendencies or personality traits, and really, how to create

heal

thy boundaries in the best way possible, first I want to talk to you . it's because in the last one we went through unraveling what a narcissist is, yeah, the different types of narcissism and how to spot it and how to see it, uh, and I think a lot of people have gone through breakups since then, you know?

A lot of people probably ended

relationship

s that they realized were very

toxic

and un

heal

thy and they didn't have a vision of what they wanted there, so for people, the first question I ask people who have ended

relationship

s with a narcissist or narcissist. personalities um, what's the best way for them to get into a new relationship without PTSD or without the remnants of? Are they going to attack me? Are they going to gaslight me? They are going to do these things that I have experienced in the past. the best way to get over that and get into a new relationship without bringing that baggage into a new one when I work with survivors in my practice and when I talk to them in my subscription it's like a kind of healing program that I have got people coming to all months.

One thing I say is that you have a way to overcome Temptation. I'm jumping into a new relationship as a palette cleanser. I'm like, you know what? Sit with that dirty palette for a minute. because you need to do this work on yourself because I think the challenge is that when people get into narcissistic or antagonistic or

toxic

relationships they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from previous stages of their life. right or both, then what happens is if you pivot too fast you don't get the chance to get to know each other, a narcissistic relationship affects you so much, now you've been living in someone else's reality, right? people forget if I like pepperoni pizza or I enjoy this TV show or what temperature I want the house at, you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are, you lose your sense of reality or yourself and your own perception of things. you just lose everything because you've literally been living in psychological servitude to this other person, so I tell people listen, my gold standard is one year, give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time. and I tell everyone you know what it's like to mind your own business, but a year, I understand that seems like a long time, but this is what these relationships put so much into someone's head that in a year a person can merge again and you can unpack it and you can start to let go of some reflections, you certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship, right?, you don't want to bring that, you don't want to bring that and you can also learn what you like and what you don't.

I don't like that when someone invades that and says that it says something derogatory, it's oh, who eats that and says well, this is not there, this is not right, I'm not going to do this again, can you start to recognize those patterns of what that just doesn't feel. true, but if you do it's almost like a recreation of the old cycle you need that separation you need a break from anniversary dates you need to have that first birthday just there first birthday just the vacations you take the vacations you take' I have to live a life without them and once you do it, because otherwise you're so trapped again that you could get caught up in someone else's kind of toxic bomb storm, so now I know a lot of people say yes, it just feels too long.

I'm like I got you, I got it like an optimal year and the people who did it said, I don't regret doing it at all now, but for a lot of people it might even be eight months, nine months, but there's a moment, Louis. after a narcissistic relationship where one person looks up when they go to bed that night and says, "Oh my God, I didn't think about them once today, it's a good day, it's an amazing day and I don't want to just one of those, I want a person to have a month of those one of those times where you just know something might remind them or something, but not so much, what are they doing, what are they doing almost to the point where you have detached, might even be mild indifference like oh, whatever you know, look at them, do them, I don't like that it provokes you, it doesn't provoke you in the same way, but I warn people, depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship , sometimes people will report feeling that.

It echoes years later, even if they have fallen in love with someone else and someone will say that means I'm not over it at all, it means the way the trauma systems in the mind. and the body clings to information means anything that reminds you and can still activate you. I have been through this and I have to tell you to this day. I think if I saw some of the people who hurt me in the past, I can think about whether you have. an answer, oh my god, and beyond an answer, in fact I think I would have to do it, it would almost be like panicking and honestly, I don't care what happens to those people, but if I saw them, it would really be disturbing for them.

It's not that I haven't gotten over it, it's just that my nervous system is like a danger Dangerous, stay away from this experience, yeah, interesting, wow, so you're optimal, nine months to a year, but in It's actually more like Taking your temperature to allow your nervous system to heal, see if you can have a few days in a row and a month in a row where you're not thinking about that person or it doesn't trigger you consistently before you go online and what have you got? It is clear who you are and you are not because in a narcissistic relationship you are defined by the relationship.

Are you happy today? Are we having a good day? Are they happy with their lives? It's all about them right now, for the first time. you make things about yourself like I'm good like no I want to keep doing this job yeah no I'm moving to New York and not like oh this is going to work for you for a minute you and and when you meet your person with Capital P and it's healthy, they might say like, ah, you know what for like six months we can do this long distance or I can work remotely?

I'll go to New York, we'll figure it out, you'll start to see that there is a possibility of compromise, but I think a lot of people after a narcissistic relationship their trap is a little more sensitive and they can throw in some fish that are big enough to keep and that Alright. I prefer people to correct too much. that low right and they might say it's me and this is where again when I work with clients they will say am I being too intense about this this is too big and nine times out of ten they will ask Lewis it's not as big as them. right at the point with what they're feeling it seems like a red flag to them or they don't feel comfortable or something doesn't sit right with them and I'm teaching people to listen to that, it's so funny that you say this because uh When I got into my relationship with Martha , my girlfriend, now at first I thought, listen to part of, I think I specifically told her that I want you to run away from me because I want to be so authentically myself that you're either attracted to me because you accept and receive who I am or it somehow pushes you away from me as my truth and my vision and my mission and who I am in this world and my being right in what I want to create in this life because I think I gave up a lot in previous relationships to please others and change who I was and transform myself to make sure that they were well and happy, which is all my responsibility for doing that um, but I was like I'm not changing who I am just to make one person happy, uh, right, I'm going to this is who I am if you want, If you want to hang out and be friends and see how it goes, that's cool, if not, that's cool too, but I'm not going to change myself to constantly try to please you and make you happy, you know? or every time you're mad at me for doing something, I'll stop doing it, you know, just to make you happy and be a good edge and I'm so glad I did it, part of me probably had PTSD at first, where I thought I was just doing this to protect myself, because I'd rather be single and okay than get into a relationship that's unhealthy and that's the key right there.

I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's not healthy and that's because that's what people are afraid of yeah and I thought I'll be single the rest of my life if that means I'm not going to be in this type of relationships that I've been in before uh and it's creating a new standard for me, you know what I'll allow and what I want to allow, what boundaries I'll create it and I'll make sure it's aligned with my partner as well and I'm glad I did. , although at first she says she might have a little PTSD.

I'm glad I came with that. I would call it I was very brave in my communication about this is my truth and it can scare you and I have to be okay if you're not correcting I have to be okay if you don't like me, correct me and here's like an amazing woman who maybe doesn't want to be with me and he would be fine with that, yes, but he doesn't give up anymore, right, he doesn't give up and I think that's the key, yeah, and it was a beautiful experiment for me. getting into a relationship that way about being honest about this is who I am these are my values ​​this is my vision this is what I'm aligned with and what I'm not aligned with um if this is something you want to explore then let's continue dating and explore it and see how it goes and I think it was a beautiful experience for me to witness the reception of that on the other side and just be consistent with my word, you know, this is what I want, this is what I don't want.

I want and be in that place, but how can we make sure? At first I'll probably say there was a little PTSD flashback, how can we make sure we don't bring that energy? Is it just waiting a year? and nine months and working on the healing process, but how do we not bring any of that past relationship into new relationships when you say bring that past relationship into new relationships? What do you think it looks like? What do you mean by that? The traumas. from the past relationship, trigger responses, you know things you did in previous relationships to protect yourself, how do you continue to keep an open heart and mind and not revert to the default?

So one thing I would tell people is I'm not ashamed of your triggers because I think what people say: I don't want to be triggered. I say no, you know you don't have that line in your sympathetic nervous system, it will always be faster than you, so you are. because it's always going to be faster, we have to be aware, for example, sometimes we even feel that I know that something will happen to people in a relationship, they will hear something and they will feel that tightness in their chest, that fun in their So, the The key is to say, "Okay, I'm uncomfortable, let me listen." That's where the mindfulness comes in that you almost have to try to go through, that lets me be present with what they're saying, even though you know it's almost like trying to do it.

Listening to someone in a loud bar at that moment you know when you lean in you're like okay, I'm concentrating completely on what this person is thinking, it's chaos around me, but that's chaos, the sympathetic nervous system. that is activated is like noise. in a bar, so now you're really leaning in, you're looking at them. I know that when I have that response, I literally look at his mouth because I'm like, "Okay, I can figure out the words and that almost gives me a fully conscious space." Watching them shape the words is almost like you can imagine it in a movie when they go straight into someone's mouth, so now I'm paying close attention to what they say because the danger of the trigger is that we don't listen, we're in of freezing, our eyes widen for the whole thirty feet, we feel that and then we start naming it and we say, I can feel myself activating like I did before.

I really have to listen. I won't because we can't, you're not going to turn that off. That's my point, so people say I have to wait until I can turn it off. I say then you will be 117 and that's it. When you're going to start dating again, which I'm sure you will be, you know there's a big dating pool, I'm sure, no doubt, but at that point the other 117 year old guys, but no, you can't. otherwise you are forever, then you are living in, you are living, you are still living on the surface of that relationship and the idea is to no longer live in service of your narcissistic relationship with the past relationship, so the trigger becomes In I triggers our communication, your nervous system says, “Wow, something dangerous is happening,” and you say, “I get it.” I need to listen, this is new because when you think about what PTSD is, it's a programming, so if you use aclassic example, I know that a person had an accident on a particular stretch of highway, so he avoided that road and let's say that one day the Uber driver takes that road and his heart races because that has almost been recorded, but already You know what you go through that way, enough times you set it up you don't let the races.

Hearts say I can't go this way. something terrible is going to happen, you say, okay, I'm going to tolerate this, maybe you have someone in the car with you the first time, so you can't stop living, but you can also hear those triggers happening in the new relationship. Give yourself permission to communicate, don't say I'm being provoked and I think you're leading me on, that might be a little heavy and say you know I need a minute. You already know that in my past X and Y happened at these moments. I know, it only takes me a minute.

Can? It's difficult to me. My trust was betrayed. So I'm going to need time to build that trust. I always say that in some ways, people who get out of narcissistic relationships have an incredible advantage because If you can really be honest with yourself in saying I'm going to ask for what I need and if this person isn't going to give it to me, then maybe This is not my person and time is very important. Narcissistic relationships are usually like this quick, quick, quick, okay, let's do this, we're in love, this is the best thing we've ever done, let's

move

, let's do this, let's go to Paris for three years, like any kind of over the top stuff. , but time is usually the way people can build trust, you can see there's a new way to respond, a kind, loving person will say we're okay, let's take this very, very slowly if you need to because then that is telling you that this person is listening to you in one of many things you need someone in an intimate relationship to do and maybe because I'm older I speak my mind and I say these things is that you know this, forgive me, this is going to sound so out of line. place, but I'm just going to say it's the um, I call it the cleaning test.

I need you to look at this person. You know they're all young and beautiful and dating. I want you to fast forward to your 85 or maybe 90 and you've broken a hip or something. This person will wipe your butt and love you and if the answer is yes, they are probably a keeper, but if you think this person will make fun of you or not want to be in the hospital, no, they are not your person and I know that, but yes? Are you really thinking that you are going to go all the way with this person?

Will you stay up all night with a child who has diarrhea? Will He cleanse you? Will it be okay if when things are no longer okay? That's where narcissistic relationships fall apart when real life comes so try to get me to tell you now I'm not a narcissist and we're going to erase you I promise you right now Yes, I think Esther Perel talks about the difference between a love story and a life story or a love partner and a life partner right where it's like you can have romance and adventure and you know crazy sex with a love partner but are they going to be a great life partner for you during these times ?

We're talking about right, there's also something like someone else mentioned this. I don't remember who in the 10,000 meals test. Do you want to have 10 thousand meals with this guy if it's exhausting to be around every other meal and you're ungrateful and they're cheating or whatever they're doing. Do you want ten thousand of these? I love that for the rest of your life. Can you imagine sitting through 10,000 meals with this person? That's why I think 10,000 meals life story you know all these things I think they're great but I feel like I'll talk with an example I used to get so caught up in the passion, the excitement, the chemicals of the first moments of the relationship, right, I used to think this is this amazing feeling of this love, and then six months, nine months, 12 months, it's like you start to relax and you realize that we have the same values ​​and if we are aligned with what life is like together. and our lifestyle, and then you try I tried to make it work well so that it was always misaligned from the beginning and you mentioned something off camera about, you know, when we find someone who is, quote, unquote, boring, um, that's a great sign , especially for people with trauma histories, yeah, I mean, I think for some people, you know, it's the activation, the trauma, the bonding, the kind of hot and cold is what equals love, what I need to earning love, that I constantly have to feel like I'm running faster and faster on the treadmill is equated with love, that's love equals chaos, so the person where it's like healthy living is not flatness , and I think I even hate the word boring words as much as it's not a quality, right? calm, that's all, yes, calm is calm, that's how long-term relationships are, but I think that people who want, want chaos to become the same, it's not even that they want chaos, it's that chaos is equal to love, they want love and that's why it's a The rewriting of that love is stable Why are the people you know I'm as guilty as anyone in the past for this?

Why do people feel loved or think it's love when there is explosiveness or chaos or someone yelling at you and then apologizing? and it's just this pattern, why does that feel like love? It's because maybe we saw this as a model in our childhood from our parents or why that's why some people feel that that is love when others can see that that is unhealthy. I don't. I don't want that, well, I mean part of this is related to this concept of trauma bond, which is kind of the core of the narcissistic relationship and in trauma bond it is made up of a relationship that has an alternation of good and bad, hot and cold, high and low. low, so in a way you are chasing a high because when there is a bad day, guess what will happen again, make up sex or whatever make-up that seems right to you, because when you were a child what it was like to live for those good days despite all the abuse, then there would be a fishing trip despite all those bad days, then your parents would do something, there would be something very quirky and funny about them or you're like the day they do something good, now you could go building the house again narrative that I come from a normal, happy family which is the origin of that Bond trauma, but then to maintain the mentality that the relationship is good, you have to justify, justify, justify, you have to make sense of those bad days to to fit in.

On the good day, then justification and denial become important parts of the issue of trauma bonding. Now, obviously, that trauma bond is going to play out much more powerfully in someone who has that in their backstory because her entire childhood was wired around how can I get that? This father notices me, how can I be seen? how can I be heard? how can I be appreciated? it's about persecution because that child was put in the unfortunate position of believing that they had to earn that or, worse yet, their needs were shamed and their parents resented them for having needs so they learned well if I'm going to be in love shut up I can't. bringing out my needs there will be bad days but then there will be good days and those bad days are because well maybe I was too demanding or you know, maybe I'm expecting too much, so a lot of that focuses on guilt and that becomes a really deep type of connective tissue.

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What future are you ready to live in? Join me and the greatness team along with an amazing community and click the link to sign up today. It doesn't mean that not everyone who enters. a traumatic relationship has that history, they are by far the people who are going to be the most vulnerable, but because narcissism is such a good front game, the charm, the charisma, the love that bombards you, you feel that you're onto something really really special, but the reason narcissistic relationships are so confusing is because there are enough good days to confuse you and the good days are good, I mean, really, really, they're over the top, they're over the top and they're kind of over the top. way they feel.

Perfect and remember, you try to get back to that right place, oh, and you get back to that, but what we have to remember is that sometimes those good days even stay there years later, you know whatever that moment is and narcissistic relationships. it's about alignment if they're having a good day suitable for whatever it is maybe that good day at work or maybe they flirted with someone at the gym you don't know what the narcissist is and you happen to have a good day something well it happened to you and you both then you're like you understand me and you love me no it's just a coincidence a lucky coincidence and then because the narcissist might have had a bad day his car got dented. in the parking lot their friend got the raise and the promotion and they didn't get it Angry Angry Angry You had that same good day They will invalidate They will criticize so it's all about alignment and timing and that alignment is what makes people say oh we have such a great relationship.

I think it sounds like chemistry, yeah, it's like you think you can play roulette. I think you got lucky on the double zero. It's really funny you say that, I mean. I'm going to start having flashbacks now, memories like I had in the last interview where I remember a time for a few years when I had a dream of going to the Olympics and making it to the USA now first, I was on the team US national, so I had the opportunity to go when you said go to the Olympics. I would like to see them so you can see that your dreams are up here. 2008 2008 I saw um.

I just had surgery playing professional soccer. I broke my wrist. He had a cast on his arm. from here to here for six months in this position I just left it and the Olympics started, so I was a little depressed because I couldn't train, I couldn't play football anymore, but I was watching the Olympics, getting inspired and I see this sport like 3 a.m. m. of the morning that I had never seen before in my life called team handball. Oh yeah, it's not well known in the US, but it's a big sport in Europe. It's like water polo on land on land. yeah, no water and um and I look at this and my jaw drops.

I think this is amazing. It seems like the sport I should have learned growing up. I'm made for this. In size. I got the speed. this is my game and it gave me this opening to a new possibility in my life, like let me look into this, maybe there will be a USA team, maybe I can make the team, maybe we can qualify for the Olympics , this is what happened in about 10 minutes of observation. this sport in 2008. 2000 2010 arrives. I

move

d to New York City to play on a handball team. Wow, the best team in the country.

New York City has the best team in the US for club teams. I moved there. Literally go learn this sport for a year. I met a girl and this girl we have this, you know, this kind of chemistry, this connection, all these things in the first, like a month or whatever, but then I start seeing the signs later. but I was not aware of it and she knew that this was part of my dream and I have been training all this year for the opportunity to be part of the US national team. They would select 16 Americans, they would surprise the entire population. the US national team has been planning this for two years, training for a year, moved to a new state, New City, to practice every week.

I get an email and I'm with the person I was with at the time. I receive an email. it says you have been selected for the US national team congratulations I am a little excited customers thinking about it well I like this it was something the email is waiting for you you have been selected you are going to the pan american championships with the national team to compete for our country and I am reading this. I'm literally so vulnerable and crying like I thought about this when I read it and I was with her. She was in the other room and would take him away.

I'm like you won't believe what happened look at this email I just received. I'm very excited and immediately she leaves and I wish my career was improving right now. Oh, there were no congratulations, it wasn't like that. I was like God, I wish maybe she would fall into a depression, yeah, yeah, it was like a depression like, oh God, I wish I could do this with my career, I wish this was happening, so I put my attention on her to make sure. that she was fine when I thought I had been dreaming about this for two years.

I'm breakingI shook my head like I was telling you this in my mind, but I thought, "Well, let me make sure his needs are met right now." I will celebrate myself again someday and it was nowhere a congratulatory acknowledgment right, um anyway, this happened several times in many relationships, similar situations like that that I didn't even know was a sign, right? I was like yeah, yeah, I didn't know until I talked to you when this was like six months ago or something, but how do you know, let me remember when I was going with this, but I think on good days it's like they have a Well, talk about alignment. , true, but if they have a bad day and you have a good day, they will try to bring you down, that's what you said right and you and your story are also very interesting because who knows if she was. have a bad day or not, but your good news is always a threat to a narcissistic person, so you know it's funny, why is it like that?

Remember that deep down narcissism is about insecurity, deep, deep, insecurity, we always think that these people have like they have very high self-esteem, they have what I can only call inaccurate self-esteem, they have this kind of falsely grandiose view of themselves. themselves, but at this deep, unprocessed unconscious level it's not like they go around thinking I'm really insecure, so they better be great, unprocessed insecurities, they're not even conscious, they're not even aware of it, but it's almost like something annoying that's always at the bottom, so anything that triggers that feeling is almost like it starts to seep from the groundwater.

That's when you'll see all kinds of things, passive aggression, which is what you faced, um, a bad mood, a resentment at times about their aggression, because they're trying to protect themselves against the threat of this insecurity arising, that's he dances well, so when I've worked with people who are in narcissistic relationships, I hear from people who have been married for a long time or in long-term relationships or if they are children, it's not so easy to say just break up and move on, It just doesn't work that way, so I say, "Okay, I'm going to have to give you some strategies to stay in this and I always call it the good, bad, different rule, never share, never let the narcissistic person be the first person." with whom you share".

Your good news you should never have called your best person at that time. Who is going to celebrate you? Who would have said oh oh my God? We all understood them well, as if something good happened and you say: I'm going to tell this. person and says, oh my God, 20 bottles of champagne, we're having a party, you tell that first, then you know that your other people will be happy for you and then, and only then, do you tell the narcissistic person because in In that moment you felt like your good news was saved, appreciated and celebrated and you just feel happy to have shared it with people who can reflect that feeling of goodness back to you, that's what parenting is all about, by the way, when your child says look .

Mommy, I have a test, honey, that's great, it's not like I'm too busy to deal with that right now and that's what kids who have narcissistic parents get a lot of, like I don't have time for that right now. Success is It's never enough, yeah, it's never enough, so I have to do it to get attention, yeah, but in adulthood that reflection is important and then once you do that, you get closer to the narcissistic person like If I wanted my life to be like that in some way. been so lively that it would be like you know what like not even in some places you are like whatever you know I hope it is too you know you would feel seen and that's the good the bad the same never go to a narcissistic person first with your things bad, it could be what happens when you share, they will feel uncomfortable, frustrated, what do you want me to do about it? um, oh my gosh, like oh, I'm low.

They are asking me for so many things. Me, they go into their victim thing, yes, you discover it, yes, you discover it, just like and you feel, let's say it's very bad news, like I found out that my mother is very sick or I, you know, it turns out that go. I'll be downsizing my division and I'll probably be in that first round of layoffs or whatever, you know, you find out that your friend is sick or you're sick or something, most of the time the narcissistic person is almost like I don't want to hear that. real things happen in the world that have nothing to do with them.

You are a mother. Being sick has nothing to do with them, so they're not really that interested and you might interrupt them. and they bring some negative Juju into their lives, they don't want that so I always tell people to get their people to accept their bad news too so that people can offer empathy compassion emotional support practical support and just as an afterthought late you will say because now they have held you back they supported you maybe you have the strength to say at some point like yes, my mom is sick and they are going to have whatever stupid response they have, you know, without empathy, but now they have supported you, so that takes us indifferent and I say to everyone in a narcissistic relationship keep it on your phone make a short list of completely empty topics the time they are building a new house across the street can you believe the new stores of groceries arriving in the city return to the weather you avoid anything that is a third rail that is a sensitive topic and its negativity can hurt you so you can keep the trains running on time, can you believe this heat?

It's great. I live in the San Fernando Valley. Can you believe this heat? In fact, every narcissistic person out there is going to know it by now. I think they are narcissists because that's how I always start. Can you believe this heat? But since there is nothing more to say, what do you say with it? narcissist so what can you believe with someone and you have children with them and you have to interact with procedural things and I think what happens is people want a real partner, they want someone to share things with them that you don't?

You're never going to have that here with a narcissist, you're never going to have that, so let it go, so you just have to recognize that it can be things like who's taking them to football today and if they say I'm too busy to take them. To football realistic expectations, of course, are not too busy, say a piece of cake, I got it. I always tell people that if you are in a narcissistic relationship you need a plan a b c and d because you will always be let down oh my gosh okay. So you mentioned a moment ago that there are certain situations where you won't be able to get out of a relationship and pursue your happiness.

Yes, no you can't, but is there any world where you can at some point? As opposed to saying I have to live the next 30 years with this person or 10 years with this person, that sounds like uh, you know, a free prison sentence, you're in the free world but you're living a prison inside. your own home that doesn't sound like a healthy lifestyle it's not because I work with such varied audiences I'm very aware of how painful it is for people to say if you don't go then I've already told them If you don't go there are limits as to how far I can take you in this process of growth because you still constantly have this echo of voice that invalidates you and reminds you of that invalidation that you know in the next room, so there's only but there's only a lot, but there's still a lot of growth.

I mean, your life almost becomes a series of silent acts of rebellion. You know, some people literally. I know some people told me. You know what I was inspired by what you said, so I went to a website. College and I got my degree and I never told them that it's all a little game for you to find your own right joy and they or they volunteer in their community and what they recognize is that the volunteering was joyful. The narcissist would tell them why. Would you like to help a group of people who are too stupid to help themselves?

They, if anything, will say they are horrible. Negativity only reinforces and I am absolutely right about them. I'm not wrong about this. a bad person for acknowledging that they are toxic and I can go out and do something that fulfills my soul but you're right it's only a partial victory um but if you can go out, go out well, okay, let me ask you this. Again, I know there are certain cultures, situations, and countries that probably have stricter restrictions on walking away, but okay, let's figure this out. It is going to be painful to stay in the marriage if there is a narcissistic person, it will be extremely.

It's painful to leave for potentially years where you might have to find a whole new community move, you know, build friendships and relationships again, be alone, all that, but if there's light at the end of the tunnel when you leave, you know , three five seven years. instead of being in the relationship for that time, is that the best solution, you know, no, I think here and it's very difficult to say because if someone said to me, tell me what the best solution is, take away all the contextual factors. obviously it's not being in a relationship like that when we talk about how people handle themselves in these relationships, there are all these forms of contact that you can have and the most extreme is no contact, which means that if you block them, delete them, they don't talk with them you don't answer their calls anything nothing and you know what there are there are places where I have actually seen the concrete data on this everyone will say that there is no contact amazing like me I feel much better now that they no longer exist in my life but it is a really limited strategy if it's a member of your family, if it's someone you co-parent with, it's someone you might still have professional contact with, so it's so extreme that it could work as if someone, let's say, someone is dating someone and you you don't have a ton of friends in common and you physically distance yourself, no contact can happen and let me tell you I haven't verified the content, okay yeah so low contact, now low contact can be done in a couple of ways different, but it tends to be you know what I would say more superficial, you don't really relate to them, it's like it's a family member who you've decided, okay, this person is so bad for me that I don't want to have nothing to do with them, but your dear cousins ​​are getting married, you can tell your dear cousin whatever he is on the opposite side of the room to sit me.

I'd appreciate it, maybe they'll come and talk to you and you'll say a very simple yes, yes, no, kids are great. answers you go to the bathroom a lot when people approach you people are going to think you have some kind of digestive problem but it's a great way out but you walk away and if it gets to be too much you give yourself permission to leave that's right you know, low contact doesn't mean like you, they come to you and you don't talk to them, you could say oh hi, yeah, the racks are cool, yeah, it's been a long time, yeah, I actually had to run to the bathroom, right, it's one of those and that or I have to run, I have a call or whatever for you to find a way to support yourself and then you won't have contact with them for maybe 10 more years until there's another wedding or funeral or something, so that's it more of the low contact and you know, and then there are all these techniques like the gray rock and the yellow rock, like all these techniques to figure out ways to communicate, but the tool that I give people and I think maybe I talked about this last time, he doesn't remember, but it's something I call don't go deep with them, which means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain and don't personalize, and it's a mantra like don't defend, don't engage, don't explain don't deeply personalize it.

What happens if you do any of those things. If you defend, you're going to get in the mud with them and they like it and you get dirty, so that doesn't make sense, so you don't like it if you defend, it's just going to escalate and gaslight and fight and it doesn't make sense because you're not going to end up with no kind of rational and sensible place when you explain that they will definitely gaslight you, so there is no point that commitment means not getting into a conversation with them don't ask them what they think about something don't tell them it's good news and don't personalize it's not about you they do this to anyone in your position they're going to manipulate it's what they do and that's how they're going to lie they're going to gaslight it's just how their personalities are set up it's not about you there's nothing you can do to change this, neither you, nor me, nor anyone, and that's very funny, so that's what's called radical acceptance and nothing you can do I won't, it's not going to change and that's not because and a lot of people say well. , it's not going to change because I'm not enough, it's not going to change because it's not going to Change is never enough for them, so again let me ask you a practical question: there are different stages in a relationship, when you meet someone, you go on a date with that person, that is a certain stage of a relationship that you date for weeks, months or long before. you say we are going to be committed or exclusive to each other at that time there is a marriage commitment and that type of relationship, what would be in your mind the key things that an individual should really focus on seeing or experiencing from the beginning . person they want to date before saying, I want to commit and be exclusive with you, not before marriage, but that's okay.

I feel itListen, I want to do a values ​​exercise with you, good for you, it was like the values ​​platform, but I said I love you, I put on some music, soft music, we are in the sun. is setting in, we are in this vortex of energy. I said I want you to be as honest and authentic with what your core values ​​are and the risk is listing so many things that are part of your values ​​in your life, you know, and it took me five ten minutes. right, I'm not going to look at it, I'm not going to uh, you know, do your thing, I make her write it down, so I said, give me a blank sheet of paper and I'll take it and do the same exercise and I said now I want her let's look at them side by side without bias without me seeing it first and then rewriting the same things because I want you to think I have the same values.

Are we aligned? Know? Is there alignment, not perfection? Is there alignment? I'm sure 80 of the things we wrote were the same, right? and on the 20 that were different, it was okay, great, that's nothing against that here and nothing against that here and it just felt more organic, because we were honest about it. Okay, I don't think there were many relationships in the past where I talked about values, vision, and lifestyle until it was too late. Right, that's breaking down and it's like this frustration and we're like, what are we doing right? We're already chemically bonded and we're already deeper into a commitment and you're like, well, we just lacked the emotional courage or the intelligence to have those conversations early and I just don't think a lot of people live their lives.

From that examination and point of view, what are my values? What do I stand for? What do you mean? What do I stand for? I can't pay for gas, you know? you're surviving, but there are certain things that you're willing to fight for, really fight and be, and that you really need to know, like for some people, for example, spirituality. It may really matter, you can't minimize that and if a person of spirituality matters. enter a relationship for someone who doesn't, it's not an accusation on either of you, but that may not be language you can use with each other, which could leave you both frustrated, but there are some things you don't go to do. to completely map another person, someone may say: I'm very comfortable with your spiritual world, I'm just not going to participate in it and then that will work and they'll say there's a I can see how happy that makes you, but what's the struggle here? , although the main type of rejection I'm going to have on your list is that your list is based on two healthy people, that's why Step One is that they both need to be healed, yes, and that's why we both need to be on a therapeutic journey together.

So for me, if one person is working on their healing journey and doing some type of therapy consistently with responsibility and emotional intelligence and integrating that process and the other isn't, I feel like it's going to be a challenge, that's why it's going to be impossible. That's why I said getting into a relationship in therapy, which again can be difficult for people. I think it's great to get into a relationship in therapy, it's just not a typical third date activity. Hey, instead of going out drinking, you want to come there. This is after a few months yet, I didn't think that there is something that there is something that there is a business to open as third date therapy, but here is the thing that is the alternative in a relationship where 50 you know they go through the divorce within many however. years and that is and then those who stay together are unhappier and then you are suffering and you feel trapped and you feel stuck and it seems that very few in your first marriage make you know how to create a peaceful and prosperous life with your known challenges and There are obstacles along the way, but it seems like it's weird, so if you want that, if you want a healthy, thriving, committed long-term relationship, not perfect but healthy, I mean, I feel like it's weird that you have to do with your ex the extreme or the different things that people have never done, I don't know, but you also have to value yourself and that is the job, the right thing is that a person can say "I am valuable" and once a person can reach there, all relationships in some way are have a fighting chance, they are not toxic, but because they value themselves, so they are willing to set a boundary, they are willing to extract from unhealthy situations, they are aware and aware of what another person knows.

They are self-aware, they are capable and they are also aware of another person and they can make judgments and statements and all that about what you know in an informed and conscious way and, above all, they have empathy in either case. or you don't do it and in the absence of empathy your whole system disappears without it, this moment of empathy yes and I think there is, you know, I think a lot of people right now in the world are involved in pseudo healing and I think it's just a look Naval narcissist and they are actually not really healing, what does that mean?

I think they're doing whatever they do, like I meditate 70,000 five times a day and I do mindfulness this and I take Ayahuasca that and blah blah blah blah, and they do all that, but they're still going around the world in one go. pretty monstrous, entitled, dismissive, disdainful way, but it's like you know what I call healing porn or recovery porn, look at my recovery. I'm so recoverable and it's like a spiritual bypass exactly, it's a spiritual bypass and that gives me pause, so you can't even say oh, they're doing all this work on themselves. I don't care how much work they are doing on themselves, how are you showing up?

What is your opinion on plant medicine as a professional? You know in terms of a therapy in terms of helping people heal? Know? I am always very demanding. here so lightly because, as an authorized person, I always have to recognize that my comments will always have weight. I'm not, I'm not a doctor, so I can't prescribe medication. I believe this. So what's happening in plant medicine? In the psychedelic world it is the future of psychiatry. I think things are happening there, so in the early clinical trials on MDMA and um and PTSD, we're seeing some really extraordinary things starting to happen and I'm pretty cynical. and I don't know, maybe I sound like I have a tinfoil hat on right now, but I think Big Pharma doesn't want this to happen because I think there may be a lot of answers lurking, but folks, this isn't about that. go home, go to a rave and take MDMA and say, "Oh, I'm treating myself for PTSD" no no no no no no no no, the treatment protocols for this should be done with authorized people in controlled environments , the therapy is happening while the person is using the psychedelic this is under the month it has to be done under the protocol with the clearest format so this is not just like drug time at a party and look at me, I'm giving myself a treatment myself, this is not self-medication, it is none of that.

This is highly controlled, the doses are controlled, but I think there is a tremendous future there. It would be arrogant of me to say otherwise and when I've spoken to people who do this type of work it's impressive. what they are showing I would like to see more data. You know, I'm not when it comes to what I do from a practical perspective, like I can't tell someone they need to be on Zoloft. I have to say it. I am going to refer you to a psychiatrist, you will work with that psychiatrist and they will make any medication recommendations that they have, but I cannot, the way my license works, make clear recommendations, so if a client of mine says that I do want to explore this, I will say that if you do it, we just have to make sure that you are doing it with a license, you know, someone who is doing this in a very legitimized and thoughtful way, yeah, I have a feeling that I feel like I have an open mind to many things, but for some reason I'm going to be intentional with my words here.

I have met many people. I have many friends who have done many different things. You know, Ayahuasca, planets, travel, experiences, retreats and all these things that swear by it, yes, and the people that I respect, the people that I love and appreciate, and there's nothing wrong with that, but years later, I don't . I don't see it having the healing effect. I'm fine, well, you keep doing it and, but where is the progress? This is like a week or two of this Euphoria. Yes, you know, but then you are. you're still struggling in your relationship you're still a bad person you still know it and it's not for everyone who does this that I know of but I just experienced that thing where people swear by it like this Euphoric experience but then six months later , they're suffering again, right, it's yeah, then there's the bypass, although, right, because of work and then I've worked with narcissistic clients, Lewis, it's not like I'm just on the Survivor side.

I've worked with Mindy in my time and let me tell you, I mean, I feel like four men in the ring and luckily I'm actually very good and actually more like Ali because I can put him on the ropes and probably leave you exhausted. I created an energy field so that you don't like things, yes, or I can receive the actually, no. Foreman receives them against the rubs. Ali can take the hits, yeah, I can just take the hit, so it's a but what I would see is I would say because This is what would be really interesting to be in the room with a narcissistic client who really got over therapy, they didn't drop out one of the interesting things for me.

I was lucky because I did it so I had no spots in my practice and I have completely scaled it back and mostly finished most of it but in the past I was like if you don't show up you lose your place and you're not in this practice and you're like, oh, I don't want to lose my place, right, they don't like that, so they show up, but the fact is that when they showed up sometimes they were like, Oh my God, that thing you just told me, you said to your wife like how did it feel and how did you finish?

No, no, they would say I didn't really think about that. I say, let's think about it, shall we? And that's something called mentalization when you have someone reflecting on what they think. how they think someone feels how they think their behavior is affecting someone like putting your head in that headspace so I said how do you think your wife felt when you did X or Y oh yeah, I guess that wasn't right, and that? Could you want someone to do something for you in that circumstance? Having him do that is good and sometimes they were like yeah, you're right, so it wasn't like that, they didn't punch me in the face, they were just like Okay, that wasn't right, would they still make the same mistakes?

Yeah, I would repeatedly say what do you think she thought or sometimes I would even say that's not right, you know, that was it and I would often say how would you feel if your My wife saw the text message that you sent. I divorced her, you really know that, and then they and I were like, do you see you have a double standard? This is my point, although Louis and one of the most, you know that this is going to be some kind of communication. you call like a combination of several people you know from a confidentiality perspective, but I sure remember working with a number of people until the end of their relationships and a couple of them said more than a few said you're telling me to do my marriage work I have to listen to her talk about her emotional issues you know she's getting older I don't even like looking at her that much anymore you're telling me I can't like her okay so I'm going to have I'm just having sex with this other person, but her tummy hurts , sir, you know, okay, so you're telling me that I have to listen to you and that I have to worry about your feelings and then and you're also telling me.

I have to do this with this other woman that I'm having sex with and who thinks I'm going to have a relationship with her, please, like this, okay, so you know what I remember, one of my most successful cases, you know. , some of the most successful cases. They come back and say I divorced the wife and left the mistress like this is if I don't want to cause so much damage, they weren't sadists you know, but after therapy they say she's fine if that's the case. This is Never Gonna Change. I do not do it. It's very clear that I want to do what I want to do and I thought that was a victory.

They're like it's not changing. They were even aware that they were not going to change. I don't listen to her nonsense and I don't like looking at her and I don't think she's attractive anymore. It's like, it's a victory for her. Other people have been released. That's great. Most people. Most narcissistic people are. People with these personalities do not stay in therapy, they are not great candidates for therapy and I guess, to what you mean, about these people who regress, there is not enough Ayahuasca in the world to change these people. right now there's not enough MDMA MDMA there's nothing I think everyone is looking for the empathy pill truth is what there is is that's not how it works, you know, there's just no sign, there has to be a, you know, this it could be something that opens you up and allows you to start processing and bringing up, you know, possible wounds that you could start to heal to do that. work, but yeah, but you have to be willing to do other therapies that aren't, you know, externally focused like a medication or somethingso, no, yes, you have to do the inner work to continue that journey exactly and that's it.

What I'm saying is that any of the protocols that are proving effective again around things like PTSD and everything have to be done under controlled circumstances and to your point, I remember I once met a guy who swore by whatever psychedelic he was saying it was. Yeah, can I curse here because I'm going to tell you right now the biggest asshole, yeah, yeah, I've ever met. I mean, he was just a jerk, just a jerk, cold and abrupt, and he was, but he still had the audacity to say I'm so empathetic now, like you know, okay, that's not how it's usually done. and I didn't, I wasn't, I had no skin in this game, I was just watching this conversation unfold.

Talking to a bunch of people, but he was just an idiot for the entire two days I had to spend in his presence and yet he was extolling how much growth he had made, so I don't know what that meant to him and maybe to people in your enviroment. Life thought there was progress, remember? I mean, if you start from minus 10, even going to zero is growth, so there's that too, but it's really difficult because I think there was an interesting article in New York. Actually, I think it was today or yesterday about this idea that being in therapy makes me a good person, you know, and it's that the goal of therapy is to make someone a good person, what a good person really is. , so it really came up.

There are many interesting philosophical questions, yes, and that is subjective to a certain extent, but I don't think it is. I think one thing we do know when we look at personality in general. I think we do believe that compassion and respect make a good person, but we also live in a world where people like that are seen as stupid, right, you have to be discerning about things and not just accept what everyone says, but not even Even if you are especially men, this is it and I really feel that men have to endure this if you are compassionate, sweet and respectful.

It's often not that they aren't male weaknesses. Take advantage of the guy who is like a corporate raider, he had a lot of money and drives the car fast. Somehow he is considered strong. i.e. this is innocent right now, that is the paradox of what masculinity is in our modern era until we can make compassion sexy, we are in trouble, what do you wish every man could learn to develop more in society being vulnerable? with emotion to share to share vulnerability to share Sadness the number of men for example who have been sexually abused we don't talk about that yes exactly and we for women actually there is at least in therapy I'm talking about the safe space but I'm telling you for clients I have worked with with male clients.

I remember some of them saying: I don't want to. I have someone to talk to. Can we do this session over the phone? I don't want to look at your face so embarrassing, you know, so embarrassing and I believe that, and when I taught abnormal psychology at the university level and I was teaching about adverse childhood experiences like child abuse, child sexual abuse, what I did notice was that some of the male students were really changing. They felt uncomfortable in their seats and I slowed down. Listen, if you know, I can address this topic, so I felt like the women in the class had actually been processed a little more macro-wise, in general, than the male students. in class, so I think holding the space to be able to feel safe talking about your insecurities, your vulnerabilities, your feelings, showing tears, I mean, there's nothing more beautiful when a person is able to not cry because they feel genuine emotion. and I think about how we pathologize men for doing that, we literally pathologize it, it's going to be cold on Saturday Night Live, they're going to make jokes about it, they're going to be memes about it, it horrifies me, so why?

Would a man ever be vulnerable if he believed that he would become a big funnel? Yeah, it's interesting, you say this and you know that I wrote a book five years ago called The Mask of Masculinity, which is about my journey of letting go. of anger, frustration, resentment and going deeper into vulnerability, on the path of healing and allowing myself to be vulnerable, talking about sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years since it happened and just unpacking at home what it means to be a man , how to take off these masks and in the process of doing this I would go to events and talk about the book and there would probably be 50 50 men and women that would be in the room and I would ask at some point in the event tell all the women in the room to lift up hand if, once a week, they talk to their friends or if they have a place where they can go and talk about their challenges, insecurities, fears and things like this about life, their body, you know.

Embarrassing problems, whatever they are, you can talk to someone about them and almost every woman in the room wouldn't raise their hand. I say keep your hands up if you do this every day with your friends, your mom, your sister, and pretty much everyone. of them laugh and say yeah, I call people every day um and I said, okay, guys in the room, raise your hands. You know, if you do this once a month, you talk to your friends and you feel safe being vulnerable and open. talk about your insecurities and all these different things too, maybe two hands out of hundreds once a month would raise their hands and let's say if you are part of a church group that does these kinds of mandatory structural things that you feel safe in . in this place and everyone laughs like yes and I say how many of you do this once a year without hands?

So I go, ladies, imagine going once a month, not even going once a month, not even going once a year, imagine going once a year. your whole life without being vulnerable and opening up because you feel like you will be embarrassed just think about the weight. I'm not saying how men act and treat you and this and this is okay or the actions are okay, but just think about yourself. It is true that that is true and I spoke to different men during this period who said Luis I. I started the opening with my wife and after years she always said: I wish you were more vulnerable.

I wish you showed more emotions. just be stoic or angry and some men would say this and I started doing this and I got the worst response from my wife, my partner, interesting because they weren't available to meet me, they are so used to me being stoic about this having it all together is that when I was emotional they needed me to be strong for their emotional challenges some of these people don't always say women so how do we get women to accept yes from men who start to change and B to show emotions to cry ? say, hey, I'm struggling right, I'm really going through some issues right now and I have some things that I have to deal with, how can we get women to also say, hey, that's very encouraging, okay and keep a safe place? space for men to go on and not be like that, I'll never do that again, she left, she made fun of me like, why would she do this?

I'm going to be strong and tough again and that's something that oh you The only thing that everyone has to work on is how to do it to say what our um, our prejudices are about masculinity. How would we change the way you see a partner? You know, I mean again, we, you and I, I was watching you. I was talking about something recently where someone was talking about masculine and feminine energy and all that. I'm not so sure I agree with that dichotomy to be honest with you, but I think it's a, you know, shame of emotion and anger being the cause. the only acceptable move for men to use they've turned it into like the swiss army knife of emotion I'm sad I'm going to be angry I'm vulnerable I'm going to be angry angry angry angry right it's like just like the one stop shop guy and to To me, anger is an incredibly acceptable healthy emotion, it's in the whole, but it's meant to be a whole drawer full of stuff, not just an emotion that you use for everything and that's That's the challenge is that men have emotional anger and that's like changing that socially, not pathologizing it and women have room for that, but I think the other part for men is that I want them to go back to having deeper friendships, something more.

I read a great article about a guy who wrote this idea about how many men have friends for colonoscopy and that headline grabbed me so I kept reading, you know what his point was. I think he had a girlfriend or wife or something. and he said that if she wasn't in my life, there wouldn't be anyone to drive me home after a colonoscopy because you can't drive yourself home and you can't take an Uber, so a person has to come pick you up at the colonoscopy and then it's very vulnerable when most men don't have and this is like men over 40, which is when you would have a colonoscopy, that men often don't have friendships that have like, let's go play golf, let's go Let's watch the game, meet at a bar, but that person the women have been with is very good at it, in fact, that's why women often do better in life after the death of their spouse, while for a man it's like they often decline quite quickly, some women don't. because they thrive, but some women really thrive, but they often have a stronger support network because women often cultivate social relationships and because that's part of something that's more validated for them and I love that analogy. from the colonoscopy friend like the person you call me can you pick me up from this and that mother will go to work?

You know, of course, it's like I'm thinking about the friends I have, like you gave me enough notice, of course I'm going to come find you and there are dozens of women I would do that for, so when I told him that to my companion, he became very sad and said: "I don't think it has settlers." They could be friends, yes, and he said, I have to work on that and yes, yes, Dr. Romney appreciates you. I want people to get more out of your work navigating narcissism. Yes, you have to tune in to the podcast.

The mighty season one is almost complete. The second season will be out early next year, but they can. check out 30 episodes of the podcast if you want more, go there, subscribe, on all the podcasts you listen to, also your YouTube is an amazing resource, they can watch it too and subscribe there. You have an online program for people who are in recovery. narcissistic relationships and abuse, if you go to his website doctor.rominy.com, you can get more information about it, you can sign up and get it as well. You have great content on social media, how else can we serve you today?

I would say. You already know that, for people who want to go deeper into healing. I have that monthly healing program. I know some people say I don't know. I don't know if I'm getting this in therapy. I may not have the money for it. It's very affordable and I would tell people you know to try it for a month if they don't like it, you don't really lose much and some people say it's working or see that there is a community of other people who have been through this, so I definitely encourage people to visit my healing and healing platform.

You can go to my website and find it. They know that people who want to hear lived experiences know that the podcast is great for that too because on YouTube I teach people about things about how to navigate narcissism I talk to people who have been through all kinds of things that they have survived cults have survivors of abusive relationships have survived spiritual abuse those who have served I mean, pick a form of abuse that we've talked about It's a really interesting opportunity to hear that conversation in real time from the insights that people get when they meet frame that way and like I said YouTube is like a big old library where if I haven't talked about it then write to me and if it makes sense I'll make a video about it and that's where a lot of our content ideas come from of people saying: could you talk about this or that?

So I do that and then I tell you. know what to go out and be empathetic be compassionate and practice what I call recognition for recognition is to see see other people feel them you know experience them have space for them because that moment of recognition for some people might be the first time I've learned it in years and it can be a real revelation that every time we meet someone there is something truly extraordinary about them, to recognize them, something powerful. I asked you a couple of questions last time, but I want people to go to our previous one. episode to see your three truths and your definition of greatness, you've probably changed.

Next time I'll ask you again, but I want to acknowledge you first, but before I ask you the final question, I want to acknowledge you for what you just said. About five minutes ago about what I think it was like a week or two ago in your own therapy, you realize that you're still having an Awakening that says growth and then creates more wholeness in yourself, which is really cool to see that you'reteaching the job but you're doing the job you have to do the job it would be disrespectful to everyone I work with if I didn't do the job right.

I appreciate him and I recognize him for how he shows up in so many ways, you know, in private conversations with people, the way he trains people, the way he teaches and on all the different platforms, so it's incredible. I need your voice very grateful for you and I thank you for learning and using your wisdom from experience on how to teach these things and I appreciate that you are welcome and my final question I want people to review the three truths in the above. episode we'll link to it, but my last question is if you could go back to your younger self before the first narcissistic experience you witnessed, you know you probably weren't even aware of it, obviously, but if you could go back.

Before that and she was standing in front of you, no matter how old she was, what are three things you would say to her to support her on the journey she's about to experience or to help her minimize some of the things she was about to experience? to experience if you could return with the wisdom you have, what would you say? um, I would tell her to keep getting lost in dreams because they're going to happen and for her to not be afraid to change course and especially that. The last one is: don't be afraid to change course.

I'm someone who followed a very traditional educational route, you know, four years of undergrad, five years of grad school, one year of training, I mean kind of a residency, two years of grad school. doctor and there was a time when I thought about changing courses and I didn't and then I became an academic and tenured and blah, blah, blah, blah, and when it was gosh, I didn't really change this course. He was 55 years old. and it worked out really well, I landed on my feet and there was a lot of work that had to go into that, there were times when I had three and four jobs, but I would say don't be afraid to change course, of course.

I don't know what would have been different if I had changed course when I was at the beginning of my education and known that there was probably a different path for me. There are many dreams that I don't have. I don't know if I could ever get a chance to do it. I always wanted to live in another country and stuff like that, I don't know if it would ever happen to me if I had changed course, so I would tell him to change course like it would be okay if in the second grad year you're jealous and we ended up where we ended up so it's um I think the way is the way and um, but I, uh, yeah, those are those, but I would say that everything will be fine and when I look at pictures of myself at that age I think that my life exceeds anything she would have allowed herself to think.

That's beautiful, Dr. Romney, thank you very much, I appreciate it, thank you very much, if that gave her courage, then she moves on. And stick around to know more right now, would you say with your research that if children grew up in a healthy family, let's say they have all the tools and resources and their parents healed their traumas and gave them discipline but love? and all of these things in the best possible way: is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? How does a narcissist become one if it is only through family environment and? the way they were treated or how it really happened, then the problem if someone had all the fundamentals yes, right, security, love, coherence, freedom from trauma, great values, great values, everything you know, all those things, a supportive educational environment. all of that you will still have a handful, but you will have reduced a probability from here to here, okay, it's a glorious career, right, you really have reduced the probability significantly, narcissism is a creation of adult narcissism is a complex mixture of that Biological temperament meets all of these environmental conditions and there are a variety of conditions that can result in narcissism in adulthood at the most extreme level and probably the most difficult is trauma in childhood, so a child who is raised and experiences a trauma, you know, a significant loss of your caregiver. chaos abuse observe abuse and because that results in inconsistent caregivers right and that can put a person at risk of developing an adult prognosis personality, but this is where it gets complicated, most people exposed to trauma and childhood do not they turn into narcissistic factors that I could but you don't always do it, so that's one way, this excessive indulgence is over like you're so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary, my children are the most extraordinary, that's another model towards narcissistic personality development, conditional love, Kobe Bryant's father.

I'm only going to love you if you come back having scored 20 points if you didn't you don't even show up now imagine that happening a thousand times ten thousand times I love you when I love you when you clean the dishes I love you if you got A's I love you if you score the soccer goal I love you if whatever the child learns that everything is love is conditional, which is really transactional, basically all narcissistic relationships and adulthood are transactional, you set the tone there with conditionality, although a lot of this comes down to something called an attachment, an attachment is something that is created in the first year or two of life, it requires an available, consistent and responsive caregiver.

A singular, you need that person who is there and looks at the baby who responds when he cries who loves him who holds him who feeds him needs that security it is called secure attachment a lot of research really points out the importance of that secure attachment which is something that predicts a less likely for adult narcissism, so if you have a secure attachment, it's less likely if you don't have an anxious attachment, and an anxiously attached baby is the child who goes completely crazy when his caregiver leaves, like you know if mom leaves him and he loses it, then the person who receives the child has a hard time calming him down and then when the child sees the father again, he starts crying again, almost as if you could leave me abandoned for five hours or something and that Anxious attachment style is very very associated with the narcissistic style in adulthood yeah can you break down the differences between narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths and then also how you identify them so there's a big difference if it was on a whiteboard here it would be drawing a Venn diagram with overlays? circles well, a lot of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy.

Very well, the audacity, the meanness, the impulsiveness, the lack of inhibition, always working. The angles, the exploitation, the manipulation, the entitlement, well, absolutely overlapping, so you might be wondering, so what's the difference? Here is the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure and they are very insecure, very insecure and they have a lot of feelings of inadequacy, okay, but that all happens on an unconscious level, but I want you to think of a narcissist as someone who constantly has a stomach ache because they are going through their lives, but there's almost this tension, they're not aware of why they have it, but the tension that they'll blow their tops off and we'll be able to see their inadequacies, that's why they're so sensitive to criticism hey like uh yeah, it's interesting, you have some dust on your shirt and you say, oh, really, and you start coming towards me.

I know you have this on yours, yes, criticizing yourself, yes, you see what I'm saying. a protection against shame, that is the narcissistic game. The psychopath doesn't go there. The psychopath is not anxious. The psychopath is not insecure. Don't worry, his nervous systems are different, so there is a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part. of our nervous system and that is where the sympathetic nervous system comes from, which you know, is fight or flight or freeze and that fight, flight, freeze and there is even a fourth part called Fawn that you could talk about, but that autonomic reaction that like boom, the adrenaline let you know, the kind of Eyes Wide Open reaction that's not there for the psychopath, so while I, I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone with a hundred dollar bill hanging from his wallet, I could never like him.

I'd have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking no, you know, because I probably have an overfunctioning autonomic nervous system, but for someone who's a psychopath, they'd cut it down and their heart rate wouldn't think they're just nothing. they steal it and that's why they have no anxiety or enthusiasm about it, there is no enthusiasm or anxiety and they are very resistant to stress in that sense, that is why there are so many psychopathic CEOs, if you are going to be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you you qualify. You can say you eliminate those hundred thousand jobs and then you keep going to play golf in the afternoon because nothing grabs you.

Sometimes they are excellent surgeons because when all hell breaks loose they are just calmly doing their surgery, that's all. But there is coldness and insensitivity because there is almost no capacity for empathy, there is no capacity for interesting intimacy and psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure and profits and, above all, by power, they only want to dominate because that is What narcissists do. They like to dominate, but they actually look like dumb dogs next to the psychopath, really yes, the closest we come to overlapping is what we call malignant narcissism, so that's when we have all the advantages that we see in narcissism, what we see more like sadism. and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist are the most dangerous narcissists they are still not completely psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and inadequacy that psychopaths do not have they are not safe they are not insecure no, I mean yes If you see a psychopath get angry it is simply because You may have gotten in the way of something I needed to do.

You know what they'll do. They will silently find a way to destroy you. Get rid of it exactly. although they will calmly make someone say like um I will literally look at you, if I was a psycho boss and you were working for me I would say and turn and leave and then I won't. I know if that means you kill them or whatever, but there's no problem with that right and a lot of emotion, they don't have empathy, yeah, they don't have empathy, because narcissists have empathy, narcissists have, we tend to say oh, they don't have empathy, they have to. we call it I like to call it You, instrumental empathy, they use empathy as a weapon so that narcissists understand what empathy is, they know that they use it against you, they use it to get what they need, they don't necessarily use it against you, but if they want get it. do something, oh man, I heard your mom is sick, oh man, oh my god, how is she?

I'm so sorry, like it's hard, you know, my mom was sick, she was really sick for a while too, I understand that whole number four thing, you know? it's a report and then they get something right from you, so it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them, that's why so many people think that narcissistic people are charming and charismatic, they know what it is. the rate, they know what's right, they know. or should I say they know what empathy is, they know how to read the room, so they got it, but it doesn't bother them, they actually understand it cognitively, they can think of empathy, oh I need something from him for him, someone said his Mom is sick, so let me work on the mom angle here because that will help him feel better.

What they don't have is any respect, so they don't take into account the feelings of others, they don't care about them, so when they are. they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you and someone next week when they're completely done with you and they're like, hey, their mom just got sicker and so, yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? It is very cold. when they're done, that's what it is and that's why people say well don't tell me you don't have empathy because it seemed like you cried at that movie or you really understood my feelings, chances are you needed something at that moment so which one? was the scariest narcissist?

What was his name or the most dangerous malignant narcissist? Well, then, can you explain again what that is? So let's talk about that, look at narcissism as almost like this inner core. Well, the inner core of narcissism. is this variable empathy generally a lack of empathy well right grandiosity validation seeking a feeling of envy of other people or the assumption that other people envy them um the inability to regulate their anger when they are frustrated disappointed or stressed a feeling of shame like that that if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with anger and a reactive sensitivity to criticism, so if someone points out something to them, they come to them, transfer the blame and responsibility to them, so they blame other people as far as they know, what their responsibility actually is.

They're very controlling, very self-centered, it's all about them, it's all selfish, insecure, very deeply, insecure, deep, a lot of feelings of inadequacy, but all of those are like repressed, all of these things. I'm talking about the law and everything else. It's like armor that protects that inner core of insufficiency from being seen by anyone. If I go around telling you that I'm doing great, then I can't be inappropriate, right? And if I have a big and elegant carin a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm then I'm very good with the narcissist and we have to talk about top line behaviors and those are our introductions charm charisma confidence curiosity and they can have those things too and not be narcissists can't because I'm a very curious person I can't you know, I'm like that, this is where it gets interesting right, you can be curious and when you can find an empathetic charismatic person, look at them, they are the unicorns of human beings when I meet the confident charismatic empathic type.

Humble and respectful person. I'm literally like everyone and I was like, "I can tell you it doesn't happen often and I usually look into Google's eyes because I'm thinking and then of course I'm snooping." I like it, no, no, no, no, what's wrong with it? Every now and then I find it and I think it hasn't happened often, it hasn't happened often, but here's the thing: the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, um, there's comfort too. that they also offer is as if they often feel like rescuers. I can take care of everything. They will be very generous from the beginning.

You know, it's all a front game. through all your common sense and you miss this is incredible, yes, and people, and if you miss the lack of empathy, anger, rage and all the other things or justify it, just, yes, you know when he has a great job or she's very stressed or she doesn't want to say that or that's just her culture. I was reading an article by a linguist recently and the linguist was talking about how people talk to each other in certain cultures and they were using that. as a way of rationalizing the interruption and there is interruption and there is interruption narcissistic interruption is not just a dismissive dismissive interruption like um okay you know you're talking and then not only do I interrupt but it's basically like, uh, your point of view. no It doesn't matter, oh yeah, you're an idiot, I know it really is, yeah, yeah, okay, so you share some of these signs of um evil, no, okay, so let's get back to the course where we have the core of the lack of empathy, all that, yes, now.

The problem with narcissism is its subtypes. OMG all narcissists are created. We really need a whiteboard. Now it's great. I would be writing notes there because what we have then is the classic narcissist, the kind of '57 Chevy of narcissism. grandiose narcissist, that's the great Charmer, sure I'm the best, no Insight, very little empathy, but very much like the great salesman, that's the grandiose narcissist, but then when we come back to the malignant narcissist, we have all that. lack of empathy and all that, but they are more threatening, they are more controlling, they are a little scarier, they are sadistic, they are paranoid, what if they have both?

Usually they can and what they would do. that's a horrible combination because then that person is really charming at first and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way with them, now you're dealing with their evil, scary manipulation and when we see control, when we see manipulative narcissism. manipulative sorry evil and narcissism we are seeing people who are often more likely to be aggressive to be violent to be abusive to isolate people so they can never get help for being abusive in the workplace We hear these big, horrible stories a lot of workplace abuse, especially a lot in the Metoo era, a lot of those malignant narcissists people, right?

So what happens if you are with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year since you've dated someone or you're, you're in Boston, it seemed that way at first, but then you realize, oh, look, look, they have a lot of these things, but you know the first six months it seemed like cool or they seemed It was amazing, but now we're watching the curtain rise and some of these things are coming to light and we don't feel good about the relationship program, whether it's a work relationship, a friendship or an intimate relationship, we have detected it. Yes, what I hear you saying is that there is really no way to change a narcissist, no, so trying to change them is not going to happen.

That's nonsense, it doesn't mean we just have to break the cable and break the band. -Help and get out or how is it so simple, yeah right, we can't walk away from all relationships, people can't just quit their jobs, um, let's say, let's say a person starts to realize this five years into a relationship and you're married, what if it's your family of origin and they say I've done my homework and they're actually my parents or my siblings? People say, well, I don't know if I'm willing to separate myself from my whole family, so I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you always have to leave.

In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism was called “Should I Stay or Should I Go Survive a Relationship with a Narcissist” and I wrote it from there. point of view because it's too simplistic to say, get up and go, like you said, rip off the band aid, so if you are and neither path is easy, but just in an ideal world, I'll be honest with you and there's actually an interesting The group in Israel It's Gathering has collected some data on narcissistic abuse and they have found that what works best when dealing with a narcissistic relationship that results in the best results is no contact, that is, not having contact with them, blocking completely the cut. fact and because it is almost like a toxin, if there is a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is not to eliminate more, if you have a little, you will only feel a little, it comes in constantly.

You have to hold on to it properly, but a lot of people don't have it, so the most important thing if you're going to have to stay in this relationship is that you have to engage in something that, you know, called radical acceptance, this will never happen. to change this is who they are this is who they are this is like this and then I tell people I have something called the deep technique that I talk about the deep technique is when I tell people if you're dealing with a narcissistic gift no. defend don't interact age don't explain don't personalize so deeply don't defend don't interact don't explain don't personalize and so when they come at you and you can remember that you really are holding it tight, it's a lot of you, it's like you're in a statement yes, no, okay, sounds good, sure, now man, narcissists don't like that because I'm going to hit you, they're going to bait you and when I tell you when. they provoke you they don't play they go for everything everything they're going to do something else they start making things up they go after your friends they attract your friends by threatening to publicly shame you whatever is right and then some people take that bait and then the Narcissist is like a game, you know, and everyone has you, I have you, because when you're fighting, they're fighters, that's what they do.

In fact, a great investigation emerged. Guy from Ohio from Ohio State University and um phenomenal study that came out this year and over 450 studies that looked at and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression is very this is not soft at all what this is about of the aggression that they want the fight they are always better fighters oh my God oh my God and they want the fight so they provoke you you have to do a robbery do not depend on a game that is crazy not to enter the fight every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome you just don't know because they always need that third person in their relationship whether someone gave me the number or someone noticed this person texting me or this person texting me is flirting, they are always trying to do it and They are always trying to create that feeling of intrigue or the idea that someone is more interested in them or in them or often they are the ones creating the jealousy or they are incredibly jealous of their partners .

There is a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There are two different things. so jealousy is normal jealousy we are actually we are a pair of united species we humans are we like we basically we are generally normatively have sex with a person people say no, that person cheated on me said yes, they they were just having sex with them they weren't having sex with you right there are still sexually monogamous you were on paper in a relationship with them you came you went to the same house but their sex was someone else's that's fine, but we tend to be bonded as a couple, we tend to be monogamous so jealousy is a threat to that, think about it Darwinianly correct if I'm in a relationship and if a threat arises, normal jealousy is that type of evolutionary jealousy. right, I'm with a person, if someone presents themselves as a threat to that relationship, I've lost resources and support for our offspring, right, that's all that is, Darwinian reproduction, pathological pathological jealousy, although that starts to come in in the realm of things like paranoia and um, oh my gosh, negative moods and all that, like jealousy, it doesn't feel good, but it always, when I've worked with couples, it's like I'm jealous.

I think that's good, that means you still have skin. in the game because when people that I've been with were working with couples or working with individuals and they were like I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband, I feel a little sad because I'm like, yeah, this. this thing is like oh god I feel like yeah I don't feel jealous I feel like I trust the person I'm with yeah but that's what we're talking about pathological jealousy so I think about my partner ironically about me Drive here he he's talking about something and this woman he knew we were going to see and who had hit on him and this guy is so loyal it takes it to a whole new level and I remember thinking about the driver I am like I have this funny little thing on my back. belly, okay, I, and I'm like, eh, he's going to live in this country, so I'm thinking that's it and I thought that's good, that's good, I still feel, yeah, like I still have a dog. the fight, but that doesn't mean you let that stress you out and like all the kids are talking about it, of course, yeah, and then, the slap, what is it?, what is the paranoid father?, the jealousy pathological, pathological jealousy, yes, that's a narcissist. rather it's more paranoid it's more antagonistic it's more that you must be doing something what you're doing so accusatory it's almost delusional it works well what would you say again are the main causes what are the main things that happen for someone to convert? a narcissist is all based on trauma no, it's partly trauma it's also that temperament it's chaos in the early environment it's a lack of secure attachment it's an overvaluation of the child basically the child can't do anything wrong and it's so wonderful, I want I mean, it's interesting, we're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know what it's going to be like, we're about to see it because what Facebook will appear in 20 years, we're about to see the first one. generation of children being born into the world of Facebook where every moment is documented and shared since they were born, this is the first time we will see this so bless the people who are going to start collecting this data because now we know that you will Let's see what would happen if you were because I had kids long before this, so the only people who saw their photos weren't the people who were actually friends and family, they put them in an envelope.

I approached the house and look at the real baby, but this is a completely new game for children who were basically accessories to their parents' lives like look at my son this look at my son this look at my son this every day there is a new So, do you think it's okay to share part of your family life on social media and some of your kids' special moments? Do you think we should protect our children at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they? Whatever it is, it's a super interesting area, there's some really interesting thinking and writing about this, and it's that these kids are not consenting.

Are these kids consenting to you showing them that you have a meltdown or do you know we see all these dumb kids? videos and sometimes I feel a little sad because these things remain in Evergreen, they didn't agree to it and as much as they say oh no, it's so cute, they still didn't give consent, it's a vulnerability, so there are some that I know . some people in the developmental psychology sphere say, oh, this may not be all that good, yeah, what happens when kids are 23 and they start going back and seeing all the things their mom or dad posted and They say, huh, that's it?

It's not really great, I wish you hadn't done that to me, but it goes further because even when the child is small, there is a feeling that things are constantly being done to him without him agreeing, he poses, he puts on clothes and he does it . this and we are going to publish you publicly and that and then the child also has this sense of his usefulness his importance to his parents is his social networks Person you look so pretty in your dress you look so pretty in your costume like You wonder if you are dressing up your work for Halloween for yourself or for them or for validation, yes, except for validation, yes exactly, and that's hard because I have friends who never show things to their kids and then I have friends who do.show.

The sons of him and the man are like yeah, how do we navigate that conversation and how? I think we're building this plane in the sky, oh man, and so the challenge is I would say it's a balancing act. between parents they talk to each other, both parents, but I also think there is a bigger issue of how much the child feels that their worth is validated by being the child who poses correctly on social media because what each child wants, what their parents want. parents. love and attention, all they want is the love and attention of their parents, so if they start to recognize that if I look good on social media and mom is being validated, then they will wear the weird thing they want her to wear or do that thing. what she wants them to do, but what doesn't happen is that their interest in what they value may not be cultivated or it's all a photo shoot, it's as if the child feels like they are constantly on display instead of just having a moment in which are present. and conscious and not everything has to be documented.

In fact, I have been a psychologist. It worries me when these chickens come home to roost and go erotic in a relationship. Is it the quality? imagination curiosity game fidelity mystery taking risks novelty that people bring to their relationship those are the things that I believe give life to relationships