Elon Musk on Advertisers, Trust and the “Wild Storm” in His Mind | DealBook Summit 2023

please welcome Andrew Ross Orin and his guest CEO of Tesla CEO of SpaceX chief engineer and CTO of Elon Musk as our final interview of this extraordinary moment that we have all had together, it doesn't need much introduction, but I want to say a couple of things, he is the richest person in the world, he may very We will be the most important individual in the world in this moment. He runs the most innovative companies in the world. Tesla SpaceX. Starlink, which is part of that neurolink, the boring company x uh and its uh x. to um and has disrupted each of these lanes um has moved into the NE break neck speeds um but faces a St of controversy in the process uh joins us today after a visit, as you all know very well , we discussed earlier um on Monday to Israel, where he met with the Prime Minister there and the president of Israel and we're going to talk about everything and my hope is that we can talk about how he thinks, about his influence, about his power, about all that and us.

Let's talk about innovation and everything else. I want to say just two other things very quickly. Sure, we first met 16 years ago. Yes, once a long time had passed and the oldest children were three years old. When? We met for the first time um, no, I think you were about to deliver your first Roadster. I don't think you've done it yet. Larry Page was still waiting, yeah, like 2007 2007 2008 um and I remember he turned himself in in 2008, I remember. Going back to The Newsroom and saying I think I just met the next Steve Jobs and um, I'm going to hold on to that, okay, I'm going to hold on to that, but a lot has happened between the time I met you and now, uh, you. you came to negotiate it's been boring that's for sure wait actually technically I have a boring company 2012 you came to negotiate and you sat on this stage uh and we're glad to have you back but so many things have happened since now And then, so many things have happened in the last week, week and a half, and a lot of people and I want to tell you this, a lot of people called me and said, "You're really going to feature Elon Musk here." Can you believe what he just said on Twitter, um, on That, I think, is our role and I know that you have problems with journalists.

I have a platform. I know you often have problems with journalists, but I said it's our role to have conversations and dig in and sometimes even interrogate ideas, and I hope we can do that. so I want to start so we can start this conversation and just set levels, take us through everything that happened if you could all no over the last week and a half how much time do you have? we're going to have the time uh um okay, you send a, you send a post or an X or a tweet. I do not know what it is.

I'm trying to change, like when things were only 140 characters, it made sense to call it a tweet. uh, because it's a bunch of little nonsense, but when you know the point where you can put three hour videos, it's like it's a very long tweet, so here we are, the post is more descriptive, I think, and somewhere moment no. I know where you were, but you write in response to another tweet, yes, this is the real truth and it unleashed a fire

storm

of criticism all the way to the White House, and then you take this trip to Israel and you have

advertisers

who are gone.

The people on the platform say that the trip to Israel is independent of the fact that it was not something like uh, excuse me, she tours. I want to be clear that it was, let's talk about that, so just take us back to the moment when you wrote that. Tri Israel is independent of that, it wasn't in response to that at all, let's do it, we'll do Israel in just a moment and I, I have no problem being hated for the way I listen, well, but you know, let's move on. to that then for a second sure because there is an idea and you could say that I think it is a real weakness to want to be liked a real weakness and I don't have that let me ask you this so there is a difference between saying no I don't care if someone likes me or if they hate me, yes, but given your power and what you have accumulated and the importance you have, I think you want them to

trust

you.

I think maybe you don't need to like or hate. but

trust

matters if ex is going to become a financial platform where people will put their money where the government will give them money for uh for Rockets where people will get into the cars they need to ultimately decide. that you are, they don't have to decide that they love you, but that, ultimately, you're a good, decent human being, yeah, I mean, I think I am, but I'm certainly not going to do any kind of tap dancing to prove to people that I am, as far as trust, I mean, I think we break it down a few ways, uh, if you want, if you want satellites to be sent to orbit reliably, uh, SpaceX will put the 80 into orbit. % of all dough this year.

China will do 12%, the rest of the world will do eight, that includes the blocking heat from Boeing and everyone else, so the rocket track record is by far the best of anything you could, you could hate me till guts, you couldn't trust me. relevant, the rocket's track record speaks for itself, uh, regarding Tesla, we make the best cars, whether you're tall, hate me like me, or indifferent, uh, do you want the best car or don't you want the best car? Pander and Jonathan certainly won't like me, the only reason I'm here is because you're a friend, like what I said Fe, you're not doing anything in the first place, I'm Andrew, but yeah, sorry, okay, second. everything we've known each other for a long time you're talking um yeah and um listen you know uh what I'm trying to illustrate is that sometimes I say the wrong thing I think there are a lot of people who are tired of it but let me let me go back um no you shouldn't listen the sketches that SNL wouldn't publish by the way those are really good um and I would say unfortunately or fortunately or unfortunately any friendship that we have is not great, we don't talk to each other much, but let me ask you this, it's true, it's true, where am I? , he doesn't call, the point is that I am, I am here because you are a friend, not because I am paid. or because I need some validation or something like that we've been friends for 16 years um and I promise you I would be here and that's why I'm here well I appreciate you being here for any other reason but let me ask you this and then do it, just tell me what happened.

You write this tweet that says this is the real truth. People read that tweet, yes, and they say that Elon Musk is an anti-Semite. It's irritating this base, you're hearing it, uh, like I said, in the White House, you're hearing it from Jewish groups all over, um, I think Jonathan Greenl from the ADL is here, there's a lot of people saying this and, by the way, Somehow, it's not just that, you read everything I did and that's why I want to ask you for answers. Sorry, I said more, more answers, yes, I said more, I said more than what you just read, yes, no, there was ABS, there was absolutely more.

Yes, it is, but I'll tell you what struck me, it wasn't, and I'm an American Jew, it wasn't just the people who had that opinion, it was actually the people who actually are. anti-Semitic who said, "Oh my gosh, go, go, Elon, this is fabulous and that's what really set me back and I said to myself what's going on here and I want to know how you felt about it at that moment when when you saw that all of this was going on, yeah, well, first of all, I clarified, almost immediately, what I meant, I would say that was, you know, if I could go back and say that I should retrospectively, not have responded to that particular person. um and I should have written at greater length what I meant um I later clarified it in the responses uh but those clarifications were ignored by the media um and I essentially handed a loaded gun to those who hate me um and possibly those who are anti-Semitic, um , so I'm so sorry, that's not like that, that wasn't my intention, so I did, you know, I posted on my main timeline to make it absolutely clear that I'm not anti-Semitic, um and that in fact, If anything I'm a philo-Semitic, and the trip to Israel was planned before any of that happened, it was neither here nor there.

See this? You know what I do because I actually followed your entire trip to Israel, right? don't tell everyone this is this says says bring the hostages home it was given to me by the parents of one of the hostages and I said I would use it as long as there was one hostage left St and I have um how was that trip and obviously you know that there's a public perception of that and you're clarifying this now um, but there's a public perception that that was part of an apology tour, so to speak, that this had been said online, there was all of the criticism there were

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that were Were we talked to Bob Iger I hope they arrest you I hope you don't do publicity you don't want them to do publicity no, what do you mean if someone is going to try to blackmail me with publicity, blackmail me with money? yourself, but see yourself, I sure hope so.

Hi Bob, here in the audience, well let me ask you, so this is how I feel, don't advertise, how do you think then about the economics of x yes yes yes yes part of the underlying model at least today and maybe it needs to change , maybe the answer is that you should stay away from advertising, um, if you think this is the only part of your business where you will be beholden to those who have this vision, what do you do? you do it for your information, I understand it, but there is also a reality, right, yes, no, no.

Lind Yaro is here and he absolutely has to sell advertising, so, no, no, totally, so what no, actually, what is this advertising boycott, uh, he's going to do it. It's going to kill the company and do you think the whole world will know that those advertisers killed the company and we'll document it in great detail? But there are those advertisers who I imagine are going to say what they are going to say. we didn't kill the company oh yeah, they're going to say tell him tell Earth, but they're going to say they're going to tell Elon that you killed the company because you said these things and they were inappropriate. things and they didn't feel comfortable on the platform, that's what we're going to say and see how the Earth responds to that, so okay, this then comes back to we'll both settle our cases and see what happens.

The bottom line is what are the economics of this for you? I mean, he has enormous resources, so he can keep this company going for a long time. Would you keep it running for a long time if there were no advertising? I mean, if the company fails. because of an announced boycott, will fail because of an announced boycott and that's what will happen to the company and that's what everyone on Earth will know. What do you think about this then? This goes back to the idea of ​​trust, even though it's gone and will be gone because of an announced boycott, but you recognize that some of those people are going to say that they didn't feel comfortable on the platform and I wonder and I wonder and I wonder and I think on that for a second. to the judge but the judge is going to be the judge is the public and you think the public is going to say that Disney is making a mistake yes and they are going to boycott Disney they are already well there are some that are for many different reasons, but you think this is going to actually the interesting thing about P of power and leverage let the chips fall where they may let the chips fall where they may I ask you why that is the approach and I ask it because you have come close well, you've been very particular about, I mean the approach to Tesla, uh, when you think about the engineering involved in the approach to SpaceX, the approach to Well, some of the things that you're doing with AI have been very specific. , we must not drop the chips where they can get close to those businesses.

I don't think we focus on making the best products and Tesla has done that. I got to where I got without any publicity. I understand that Tesla currently sells twice as much in terms of electric vehicles as the rest of the electric car manufacturers in the United States combined. Tesla has done more to help the environment than all other companies. All in all, it would be fair to say that, therefore, as a company leader, I have done more for the environment than any other human being on earth, how do you feel about that? Yes, no, I'm asking you personally how What you feel is because this says that we were talking about power and influence and I'm saying that what I care about is the reality of goodness, not the perception of it, and what I see everywhere Parts of it are people who worry about looking good while doing evil, okay, let me ask you this because I think part of this, by the way, there are some people who said that looking like you own X just created problems to begin with, which you have created so many incredible things that are changing. our world and I know you want to make at least still and we will do it at Tesla.

You have your cyber truck, uh, deliveries tomorrow and everything else you're doing, butdangerous element of AI. that they've discovered, yeah, you think they've discovered something that would be my guess, where are you with your own AI efforts relative to where you think open AI is where you think Google is where you think everyone else is? means in the IAFfaced with a bit of a dilemma here because, um, I've thought that AI could be something that would change the world in a significant way since I was in college, I mean, like 30 years ago, um, now The reason I didn't go to AI, right? from the beginning it was because I wasn't sure which edge of the double-edged sword would be sharper: the good edge or the bad edge, so I stopped doing anything about AI that I could have created, I think it's a leading company in AI and A kind of open AI is actually like that, because I wasn't sure if you make this Magical Genius, what will happen?

You know, while I think building sustainable energy technology is much more of a one-edged sword than it is a good one-edged build. multiplan living I think it's good single edged, you know, stagnating mostly is good single edged, I mean giving people better connectivity, people you know don't have connectivity or are too expensive I think which is very, you know, a very good thing, um. By the way, Sonic was instrumental in stopping the Russian advance, the Ukrainian said so, so you know, I think there, but with AI you have the Magic Genie problem, you may think you want a Magic Genie, but once you You know, that Genius is. out of the bottle it's hard to say what happens how far are we from the Genie being out of the bottle do you think we think he's already out means the genie is certainly rearing his head um AGI the idea of ​​artificial general intelligence given what Now you are working on yourself and you know how easy or difficult it is to train to create the inferences to create the weights.

I hope I don't get too far into the details of how this works, but those are the basics behind the software. of this, yeah, you know all these weights, uh, they're basically numbers in a comma separated value file and that's our digital God, a CSP file, well, that's fun, um, but that's literally what it is, so I think it's pretty good. fast, you know, I mean, uh, you, you, you've admitted to exaggerating how fast things are going to happen, but how fast do you think this is going to happen if you say smarter than the smartest human being at anything?

Yeah, he might not be a lot smarter than all humans then, well, machine-augmented humans, you know, because people have computers and stuff, there's a higher bar, but you say he's lower than anyone you know. , you can write a novel as good as, say, JK rling, or discover new physics or invent new technology, um, I would say that. We're less than three years away from that point, let me ask you a question about uh xai and what you're doing and, um, because there's one interesting thing that's different. I think about what you have in relation to others, which is that you have data. you have information, you have all the things that everyone here has put on the platform to classify and I don't know if everyone initially realized what the value of that is, yeah, I mean, the data is very important, you could say the data they're probably more valuable than gold, um, but then maybe you have more, maybe you have more, maybe you have the gold in X in a different way, in a new way that I, that I don't know if the public appreciates what That means, yeah, um.

X is what might be the best source of data, I mean there are more links from people going to people clicking on more links to X than anything else on Earth. Sometimes people think that Facebook or Instagram is something more important, but In reality, there are more links to X than anything else you can imagine. This is public information. You can search for it on Google. Okay, let me ask you. So, it's where you would find what's happening right now on Earth at any given time. In fact, a drama developed on xplatform, so it's one of those that's not there.

You know, Google certainly has a lot of data, as does Microsoft, so it's not like that, but it's one of the best sources of data. Can I ask you an interesting intellectual property question that I think is actually something I can say as someone who is in the creator business and in the journalism business and all that, where they worry about copyright, so one of the things about data training has this idea been? that you're not going to train or these things are not being trained with people's copyrighted information historically, that's been the concept, yeah, that's a big lie, repeat that, they're these AIs, they're all trained with protected data for copyright, obviously, so you think it's a lie when when the open AI says that this is not any of these guys it says that they are training with copyright that is a lie it is a direct lie it is a direct lie it is worth 100% obviously it's been trained with prop data okay so let me ask the second question, which is all the people who have been uploading like one every minute, all the people who have been uploading articles, the best quotes from different articles, videos, 2 Sometimes you can train on all of that and it's interesting because people put all that there are um and those quotes have historically been considered fair use, the right people are putting those quotes up there and individually on a fair use basis, you would say it's well, that makes sense, but now there are people who make threads and by the way, there may be several people who have done it you know, an article that is a thousand words long technically, all the thousand words could have gotten to effectively, now that you have this extraordinary repository and I'm wondering what you think about that again and how you think. the creative community and those who were the original owners of IP should think about that.

I don't know except to say that by the time these lawsuits are decided we will have digital God, so ask digital God at that time, these little suits won. It won't be decided before in a period of time that is relevant, um, it's a good thing or a bad thing. I think we live. You know, I don't know if it's actually a real Chinese thing or not, but can you live in? Interesting times are apparently not a good thing, but I, personally, would prefer to live in interesting times, um and we live in the most interesting times, I think, and for a while I was really unmotivated and losing sleep. about the kind of threat of AI danger and then I finally got a little fatalistic about it and said well even if I knew it was Annihilation, I was sure I would choose to be alive at that moment or not and I said I probably would have .

I chose to be alive at that moment because it's the most interesting thing, even if there's nothing I can do about it, so, you know, basically a kind of fatalistic resignation helped me sleep at night because I had trouble sleeping at night because to AI. danger, um, now what to do about it. I mean, I've been the biggest, the loudest drumbeat, by far, the longest, or at least one of the longest, on the danger of AI and these regulatory things that are happening in this moment. The biggest reason they are happening is because of me. Do you think they will ever accept it?

We spoke with the vice president this afternoon. She said she wants to regulate it. People have been trying to regulate social media for years. and I haven't done anything effectively, there is a regulation on anything that is a physical danger or a danger to the public, so cars are highly regulated. Communications are highly regulated, rockets and airplanes are highly regulated. The general philosophy around regulation is that when something is a danger to the public there needs to be some government oversight, so I think, in my opinion, AI is more dangerous than nuclear bombs, and we regulate nuclear bombs, you can't just go make a nuclear bomb in your backyard um I think we should have some kind of regulation with AI now, this tends to cause AI accelerationists to get up in arms um because they think AI is kind of paradise, basically, um, but you usually don't like the regulation that you've rejected. about regulators for the most part in the Tesla world and in so many cases where we read articles about you rejecting regulators.

I'm so curious why in this case you now own one of these businesses, like I said a moment ago. ago um uh you shouldn't take what you see in the media as the whole picture um there are literally hundreds. It's not an exaggeration, I'm saying that there are probably 100 million regulations that my companies comply with and there are probably five that we don't and if we don't agree with some of those regulations it's because we think that the regulation that is intended to do good in It doesn't really do good, but those are regulations, the question is if there are laws and rules, if the idea is that you are making the decision that the law and the rule should not be the law and the rule and then the right thing is not is not.

I'm saying you're fundamentally wrong and it should be obvious that you're wrong um My company's automotive industry is heavily regulated. We would not be allowed to put cars on the road if we did not comply with this vast body of regulations. Now you could literally fill the stage, you know, with one foot up with the regulations. that you have to comply with to manufacture a car would make you have a room full of telephone directories, that is the amount, that is how big the regulations are and if you do not comply with all of them you cannot sell the car and if we do not comply with all the regulations to Rockets or for Starling, they shut us down, so I'm actually incredibly compliant with the regulations now, every once in a while there will be something that I don't agree with and the reason I wouldn't agree with it is because I think the regulation in that particular case in that rare case it does not serve the public good and therefore I believe that it is my obligation to object to a regulation that is intended to serve the public good, but is it not so?

That's the only time I object. not because I'm looking to object, in fact I incredibly follow the rules, let me ask you a separate question, social media related question, we've been talking about Tik Tok today, before the election, sure, uh, Tik Tok is what do you think about Tik? Tok, do you think it's a security threat? I don't use Tik Tok, I repeat no, I personally don't use it, but for people who, for teenagers and people in their 20s, seem almost religiously addicted to Tik. Tok um some people watch Tik Tok for about two hours a day um I stopped using Tik Tok when I felt like the AI ​​was probing my

mind

and it didn't make me feel uncomfortable um so I stopped using it um and in terms of anti-Semitic content, I want I mean, Tik Tok has the most viral anti-Semitic content by far, but do you think the Chinese government is using it to manipulate the

mind

s of Americans?

No, it's something you think we should worry about. I mean, you have different states that are trying to ban it. I don't think this is a plot by the Chinese government, but yes, it is, Tik Tok's algorithm is completely powered by AI, so it's really just trying to find the best. It's possible that it will go viral, it's what will keep you glued to the screen, that's all, now, the numbers, there are on the order of 2 billion Muslims in the world and I think you know a much smaller number of Jews. There's 20 million people, something like many orders of pure magnitude, so if you just look at content production just in numerical terms, it's going to be overwhelmingly anti-Semitic, let me ask you, let me ask you a political question, um, and I'm trying to square it.

I've had this in my head for a long time, yes, in the last 2 or 3 years you have moved decidedly to the right. I think we can discuss this. I think you've been embracing and promoting several Republicans. candidates and others, have been very frustrated with the Biden Administration, I think the unions and they felt that they did not respect well what you had created, I mean, without doing anything to provoke the V Administration, they held an Electric Vehicle Summit. in the White House and specifically refused to allow Tesla to attend, this was in the first six months of the administration, um, and we asked, we literally make more electric cars than everyone else combined, why aren't we allowed?

Why do you just let your Ford GM Chrysler and UAW and you specifically are excluding us from the EV Summit, the White House we have done nothing to provoke them, then Biden added insults and publicly said that GM was leading the automobile revolution electric in which it was located. the same quarter that Tesla made 300,000 electric cars and GM made 26, that seems fair to you, but tell me this, then it doesn't seem fair to you um and and and I've asked you repeatedly, you've probably seen me and by Somehow I had a great relationship with Obama, so it wasn't like that, but I voted for Obama.

I was in line for six hours. I stood in line for six hours to fish. Obama was fine, but he is fine,day if we really watched this together, do you have your phone with you? Yeah, you want to look good, okay, here we go. are you ready press screen time General screen time sometimes this is a scary number but I know that's why I thought uh uh I just got a new phone so I think this is not accurate because it says "I'm, It's a minute, I'm pretty sure it's more than that wait, week's over, here we go, yeah, come on, come on, a week, okay, so that's still bad, it's more than four minutes.

I just got it. a new phone so this is not accurate it literally says four minutes new phone Tim Cook do that new phone new phone who do you know by the way I should ask because I'm only mentioning Tim Cook do you feel like you're going. to have to have a battle with him eventually? The next fight, I mean the App Store idea of ​​making a phone, oh, you mean anything in the app store, never making a phone Sam Alman is apparently thinking. on making a phone with Johnny h. I mean, I don't think there's a real need to make a phone.

I mean, if there is something essential. I need to make a phone. I'll make a phone, but I have a lot to fry, so, I mean, I think there's a fundamental challenge that phone makers have right now because you basically have a black phone. rectangle um, do you know how to improve it so you can? I want to do that, what does that look like in Elon's head, no, that's literally yeah, good, good phrase, uh, in the head, a neural link, well, there come on, we have to touch that before it ends, you know, the best interface. it would be a neural interface directly to your brain, um, so that would be a neural point of how far away you think from that and how excited or scary it seems to be and we read these headlines obviously about monkeys that died like you know.

Should we think about that? Yes, it's actually you, the USDA inspector who came to the Neuralink facility and literally said in her entire career that she had never seen a better animal care facility. We are the friendliest to animals you could be. to the rats and mice even though they made the plague and all that, so, it's like Monkey Paradise, so what fills out is that there were some terminal monkeys where you know this is long, it was actually several years ago years. where the monkeys were about to die and they said, well, we have an experimental device, it's that kind of thing that you just put in a monkey that's about to die and then you know, now the monkey died but it didn't die because of The neural link died because, you know, he had a terminal case of cancer or something, so uh, the neural link has never caused the death of a monkey, I better, unless they're hiding something from me, never caused the death of the monkey and in fact, we've had monkeys with neuralink implants for I think two or three years and they're doing very well, so we've even replaced the chick twice, and it's and we're getting ready to do that. making the first implants hopefully in a few months um the first neuralink implementations I think are unequivocally good talking about a double edged sword.

I think these first implementations are one-edged swords um because the first implementations will be to allow people who have lost the brain and body connection, uh, to be able to operate a computer or a phone faster than someone who has working hands. , so you can imagine if even Hawking could communicate faster than someone who had full full body functionality, how amazing. that would be cool, that's what this device will do and we should have tests of that in a human, hopefully in a few months it works, you know, in monkeys and it works pretty well with monkeys that can play video games just by thinking that and the next application after um, the kind of people you know that deal with tetrolics and quadriplegics will be um Vision, vision is next, so it's like someone saying they've lost both eyes or their optics.

The nerve has basically failed, whether they have no chance of having some kind of eye correction, that will be next, uh, for neur link it is a direct vision interface and, in fact, then you could be like Jord Le Forge from the home track, would you? You could see it on any frequency, in fact, you could see it on radar if you want two final questions, and then we're going to finish this conversation that I think today hasn't taken everyone inside Elon Musk's mind as well as the new link. Is it really for self-driving cars and vision and everything else? um and I asked this question to Judge Pete Buddha, uh, Secretary of Transportation, it's actually something that you retweeted, so I wanted to ask you the same question, um, there's a big question about autonomous vehicles. vehicles and the safety of them, but there is also a question about when it will be politically acceptable in this country for people to die in cars controlled by computers, I mean, we have between 35 and 40,000 deaths every year in this country, yes, yes it could reduce That number to 10,000 or 5,000, that could be a great thing, but do we think the country will accept the idea that 5,000 people in your family could have died in a vehicle as a result of no human action? a mistake, but from a computer um, yeah, well, first of all, humans are terrible drivers, um, so people text and drive, drink and drive, get into arguments, you know, um, you know They do all kinds of things on cars that they shouldn't do.

So it's really notable that there aren't more deaths than there are. What we will find with computer driving is, I think, probably an order of magnitude reduction in fatalities. I think now in the US there are far fewer deaths per capita than the rest. in the world, if you go around the world, I think there are about a million deaths a year due to car accidents, so I think computer driving will probably reduce that number by 90% or more, it won't be perfect, but 'It will be 10 times better and do you think the public will accept it?

Do you think the government will accept it? In large quantities, it will just be so obviously true that it really can't be denied and what do you think? I know we've talked about the timeline before and I know people have criticized you for posting timelines that may not have come true yet, but what do you really think it is and by the way do you feel like you ever I said to yourself I shouldn't have said that, right, of course, um wait, I should have said that um, so, yeah, I'm optimistic about time scales, I mean, I think I'm naturally optimistic about time scales. time and if I wasn't naturally optimistic, I wouldn't be doing the things I'm doing.

I mean, I certainly would have looked for a rocket company or a car company if I didn't have some kind of pathological optimism. Frankly, um, so, as you pointed out. Many people said they would fail, and I actually agreed with them. I said yeah, it'll probably fail and they said, "Okay, but I thought Space Six and Tesla had less than a 10% chance of success when we started." they, um, so yeah, anyway, but the autonomous driving thing is I've been optimistic about it, we've certainly made a lot of progress, if anyone has tried the full smooth driving beta, the progress is, uh, you .

I know every year has been substantial, it's really now at the point where in most places it will get you from one place to another without interventions, and the data is unequivocal that that total supervised autonomous driving is about four times . safer maybe more than just a human being driving alone um so, you know, I can certainly see it coming actually do you think it's going to be another five or 10 years, I mean people, no, no, definitely, no, definitely, No, um, and are you sitting down? like investors have invested in something that hasn't happened yet, that's fair to them and that's the other question people have about that, well I think everyone, with rare exceptions, thought it wasn't happening. so they were investing despite thinking they were very clear that they don't believe it's real so they don't say oh we just believe everything and it says hook and sinker U and but the thing is I mean that would be a fair criticism.

For me to say that I'm late but I'm not, but I always deliver it at the end. Let me ask you a final question. I made a note of this, it was November 11th and you went on Twitter and wrote down just two words that you said. amplify empathy, right, that took me by surprise given all the things that have been happening in the world. Do you remember well what you were thinking? I think it's quite literally and I understand it, but what was going on? Why why did you do it? write that well, I was encouraging people to apply empathy literally.

I tend to be quite literal. um, but was there something that had happened? I mean, you had seen that you said to yourself: I need to do it. I mean I think I'm talking. to some friends and we all agreed that we should try to amplify empathy, so I wrote amplify empathy, um, if you wanted an unvarnished look inside the mind of Elon Musk, I think you just saw it, sometimes it's quite simple, you know, Elon Musk, thank you. Thank you so much for the conversation, thank you so much, thank you so much, thank you so much, take it with you for a second, have a great moment.

I'm just going to say, uh, a thank you to everyone who stayed for what it's been like. an extraordinary day, we are very grateful to everyone who has been with us for so many years and comes back to this every year, so thank you, thank you, thank you. I hope you had a great day and I hope we get the chance to do it. this again Elon Musk everyone, thank you