Don't Talk to the Police

I was invited to give you a taste of a typical law school classroom experience here today and I thought I'd take this opportunity to do something that's been on my mind for a while: stand up and proudly say God bless America, God . Bless the Bill of Rights and thank God for the Fifth Amendment. I'm not ashamed to say I'm proud of the 5th amendment and I'm not. I am proud to admit on camera and on the Internet that I will never speak to any

police

officer under any circumstances with all due respect sir, I am doing something truly extraordinary here today, something you will almost never see another law professor do in my lifetime.

I'm really putting myself in a bind here at my event. It was my idea because of my invitation I have given up approximately half of my time I am giving the same time and the last word to an expert who really knows something about what I will be

talk

ing about so I open myself to the possibility of him contradicting me. I was a criminal defense attorney when I was in private practice, so I want to make sure that, to be fair to you, if I misled you by giving you a biased or one-sided presentation, you get to have the final say. from someone else, I'm sure he will have a lot to teach us all, including me, the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution provides that no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself and this unfortunate amendment has gotten a bad reputation in recent times, much of it tragically and unnecessarily, as you may have heard the headlines, let me read you something that was taken from the newspaper this morning and I want you to listen to it carefully and I'm giving it attention, I'm warning you in advance, which isn't fair to you, it's not fair to me, but I'm giving you a warning.

I warn you that I will question you about this in just a few minutes. test your aptitude for the study and practice of law listen carefully, it won't take long last night officers with the Norfolk Police Department found three victims of an apparent murder dead in an apartment in the East Ocean View area, the apparent victims of a mafia style murder and possibly victims of gang related violence,

police

are investigating this as a possible murder-suicide, but now suspect that all three were murdered by the same individual. No suspects have yet been identified in the murder, but veteran police detective George Brooke. has confirmed that police are investigating evidence pointing to the possible involvement of an off-duty naval officer as the perpetrator of the crime.

The bodies that were found by the apartment manager around 8 in the morning seemed to have been murdered earlier in the same night, probably sometime between midnight and 2:00 in the morning, that's it, those are all the facts I will ask you to remember and it won't be for long, let's see how well you do. I'll be questioning you in just a few minutes. This is the easiest question you will ever receive from a client every day of your life. Hey, the police are here. They want to

talk

to me. What should I do right? I could give you my answer to that question in case you haven't already guessed, but why don't we go to a real expert, just like Robert Jackson, a prosecutor like me, started his private practice in Buffalo, New York, years before than me and after that? served as general counsel of the Bureau of Internal Revenue, U.S.

Department of the Treasury, secured the Exchange Commission, U.S. Deputy Attorney General for the Tax Division, later Solicitor General and the Attorney General of the United States and then the boss. He was prosecuted by the Nuremberg Tribunal. trials that are an impressive resume years later, when he was a justice of the Supreme Court, Justice Jackson said, quote any lawyer worth his salt today, we would say that he will tell the suspect that his client in no uncertain terms not make any statements to the police under In any circumstance, that is the title of my talk. I am here to explain to you the surprising, somewhat contradictory and certainly unlikely reasons why Judge Jackson was right.

I remember this because it amazes me that we are all amazed at how often we see articles in the newspapers all the time from people who really should know better and who are keeping themselves well. I'll talk to the police. I mean, after all, I'm, I'm a senator, I'm AJ Simpson, I'm, I'm. An experienced and highly polished individual, Eigvals gained extensive experience with public relations, including criminal defense attorneys. There was a local news story here in the Virginian-Pilot just a couple of months ago about an experienced criminal defense attorney who ended up being convicted of felonious assault because he talked to the police he was accused of assaulting another attorney in the hallway there were no more witnesses to This a woman said he grabbed her by the neck during an argument about a case he denied it at trial it was his word against hers he said I didn't even touch her but unfortunately for him when the police approached him before and He asked him: would you be willing to answer some questions?

He said, of course, why not. I'm a lawyer, I'm a criminal defense lawyer. I am intelligent I am sophisticated I have oratory skills I am I am used to dealing with the police by all means and then there was a conversation that was not recorded when the case went to trial it was no longer his word against her because when he testified at trial he never said it. I knocked, the officer took the stand and testified well when I met with him he said he did put his hand on his throat, but just as a joke then he had to take the stand again and say that's not true I never said that I never admitted to you that now it's his word against two people who tell the truth we will never know for sure but he was found guilty now here is part of the problem the heart of the problem as justice Breyer on the United States Supreme Court explained in 1998 citing the complexity of the law modern federal criminal law codified in several thousand sections of the United States Code and the virtually infinite variety of factual circumstances that could trigger an investigation into a possible violation of the law.

It is difficult for anyone to know in advance when a particular substr statements might later appear relevant to a prosecutor for some investigation. A criminal law expert recently noted that estimates of the current size of the federal criminal law force vary, although it has been reported that the Congressional Research Service can no longer even count the current number of federal crimes, that is true, even The federal government has lost count. These laws are scheduled into all 50 pages of the U.S. Code and span approximately 27,000 pages; Worse yet, these statutes often incorporate by reference. For administrative regulation provisions, estimates of how many regulations exist are even less established, although the ABA believes there may be almost 10,000.

Here's one of those 10,000 federal criminal statutes in a book you've probably never heard of, it's called the Lacey Act 16 Section 33 70 of the USC says it is a federal crime for any person to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire or purchase any fish, wildlife or plants, possessed, transported or sold in violation of any treaty or regulation of the United States or any Indian tribal law. or any state or any foreign law people have been convicted in federal court of violating the statute because they brought a bony fish from Honduras without knowing that Honduran law, not US law, but Honduran law prohibited possession of the bony fish. lists the law because they were found in possession of what is called short lobster, the elapsed time is less than a certain size, some states prevent possession of the lobster if it is less than a certain length, it does not matter if it is alive or dead, it does not matter It does not matter Whether you killed her or died of natural causes, it doesn't even matter if you acted in self-defense.

Did you know that it can now be a federal crime to be in possession of a lobster? Admit it, raise your hand. If you didn't know, there's the problem and that's just one of the 10,000 different ways you know the government gets pretty upset when people like me educate the customer. People like me and Judge Jackson don't talk to the police, they don't answer any questions. but you know you can't have it both ways, you have 10,000 different ways to condemn us, good for you, but you know, the bitter comes to the sweet, the good comes to the gang, that's ten thousand different ways, my client . could unknowingly become involved in some type of criminal transaction, one of the reasons I decided to give this talk.

I recently received a phone call from a former student of mine, a regional law school graduate, who may be viewing this online. We are putting it. Internet and said hey, the Internal Revenue Service came to me and they want to ask me a couple of questions. They made me if I'm not willing to do it, but they say I'm not a suspect and I know I'm my heart, I don't think I've done anything wrong or violated the regulations of the Internal Revenue Service, sir, have mercy, there is no man in the earth, not those, there is no woman in this country who can honestly say with complete confidence, I know I have done it.

I never violated any provision of the Internal Revenue Code, he said, but they say I'm not a suspect and I know I haven't done anything wrong, it's okay if I talk to him. I told him no, no, you tell them you won't talk to them. without immunity I explained to him why that was true and he never heard from them again, okay why you should never talk to the police, let me explain it to you, let me make it clear to all of you, these are the top 10. reasons: actually you're not lying to yourself I really don't have ten I don't have ten but I have time for eight and that will be pretty close to number one and this really should be pretty good, contrary to what you laymen instinctively assumed naturally, no can help, there is no way I can help you.

Many people think that I can and they are always wrong. He can't help but arrest Officer Brooke whom he has interviewed. thousands of crime suspects how many times in your experience have you approached someone to ask if you could ask them some questions because before the interview you had some evidence that pointed to possible guilt and because of the extraordinary persuasion and eloquence with which you articulated your innocence you set up sorry, nevermind, bank, everything bad, I won't do it and you convinced him not to arrest him never, ever, ever happens. I have often asked other criminal defense attorneys and with all your experience, have you ever tried a case? where you looked back in retrospect and said thank god my client spoke to the police they laugh at me they laugh at me they say you have to be kidding you can't help yourself you can't talk about your way of being arrested and contrary to what I might assume If you never told the Rules of Evidence what you tell the police, even if it is exculpatory, it cannot be used to help you in a trial because it is what we call hearsay under the Rules of Evidence, specifically rule 801 d-2 a Yes I want to search for it.

Anything you say to the police, as the saying goes, can and will be used against you, but it can't be used in your favor from time to time. I have known lawyers who tried to call a police officer to the stand and call him an officer. Would I tell the jury what my client told you because what my client told you was really good for my case? If you try that at trial, the prosecutor will object that it is rumor and the judge will agree that the police and their request will not be allowed. Tell the jury what your client told you, no matter how good it is for your case, you can't help and that should be reason enough to keep your mouth shut, but if you're not convinced, let me go.

Let's talk about a couple of others, number two obviously one of the most obvious, if your client is guilty as many of them are, but even if he's not, even if he's innocent, he may as well admit his guilt without any benefit in return, of course, many of you. You're thinking what's wrong with that, I mean, shouldn't guilty people make confessions? Good for the soul, it's good for law enforcement, it's good for prisons, yes, yes, I'm sure all those things are true and it would please the rest of you if I or Someone close to me is ever a victim of some type of serious crime.

I hope they find the right guy. I hope they convict him. I hope they jail him. We all feel that way. Hey, but what's up with the rush? Friends, don't go. admit guilt the first time they come to meet you in federal court 84-68 II 6% of all defendants plead guilty at some point before trial if your client is guilty and you really should be punished and it really should happen overlook some kind of cleansing act of contrition confess and admit your guilt there will be plenty of time to do it almost always no need to rush no need to say anything to the police wait and see if maybe your client can't get to some kind agreement that may give some type of compensation to the alleged victim or may be able to obtainsome kind of discount on his sentence and he will be able to treat it however he wants.

So he was treated fairly like everyone else who had the benefit of a good lawyer who said, please don't talk to the police and, by the way, don't forget, even if even if your client only admits things that the police I already knew, I could think well what harm can it do? He says he wants to talk to the police. All he wants to do is admit that he was there, but the cops know he was there. He's okay, go ahead and tell him, well, how can I hurt you? He could hurt if the police officer. is transferred to Minnesota dead or injured or in a coma or cannot be located at the time of trial the case will be dismissed if there is no confession but if your client admits things that the confession is freely admissible against him it may be a basis for convicting him of Senator Larry Craig himself can explain all this to you, the United States Innocence Project has confirmed that in more than 25% of all cases where an innocent man was convicted and then released from prison after being exonerated by our DNA And more than a quarter of those cases, these innocent people, people who we know are innocent, made incriminating statements, openly confessed or pleaded guilty, how do they do it?

He will tell us everything. I trust there are a couple of famous examples here, you can just ask them. You don't have to take my word for it, they're on the left with Eddie Joe Lloyd. He was convicted in 1984 of the murder of a 16-year-old girl in Detroit after writing to police with suggestions on how to solve several recent crimes. During several interviews, the police provided details of the crime to Mr. Lloyd, who was mentally ill, was lied to and convinced this mentally ill man that by confessing he could help them discover the real killer. He later signed a confession that gave a recorded statement that the jury handed over less than an hour earlier.

In sentencing him on the basis of this confession there was no other substantial evidence against him, the judge said, "I would hang you if I could," but the death penalty was not available in Michigan at the time, but after nearly two decades in prison He was later released. DNA evidence proved that this man was innocent and that he falsely confessed to a crime that he did not commit on the right like Earl Washington who was released from prison just a few years ago here in Virginia after spending 18 years behind bars for a cook after being committed a rape and a murder that we now know he did not commit after being exonerated by DNA evidence but is this man Mr.

Washington, who was in fact confirmed to be mentally ill, was able to confess to several crimes at the request of the police, some of which we know he could not have committed. That's the problem. Some of you are thinking, well, none of this concerns me because I'm not guilty of anything and I never will be and I will never represent people who do it right, let's talk to you innocent people, those of you who have never committed a crime and They will never do it, none of their clients will either and no and you wouldn't date a girl who did it right, you better not talk to the police either, okay, because number three, we'll leave the culprits behind, forget about them, let's talk of innocent people, number three, even if your client is innocent and he denies it.

You feel guilty and tell almost the entire truth, the odds are good, you will get carried away easily and tell some little lie or make some little mistake that will choke you, this is human nature, you get yourself in there, it is a stressful situation, imagine to a perfectly innocent customer, police say. He's been guilty of a murder, he's totally innocent, as innocent as any of us, so he goes in there, meets with the police and says: I don't know what you're talking about. He was nowhere near there. I didn't kill him. I've never killed anyone I don't have a gun I've never had a gun I've never touched a gun in my life I wasn't even close to Virginia Beach who like then left naik and that last line was a lie. he went overboard, he was getting carried away, it led him into this rhythm, he started to see all kinds of things, almost all of them true, that he knew would tend to exonerate himself, then he got carried away, he just said one thing that wasn't true and unfortunately for him they can prove it wasn't true, he can be convicted just for that, but let's say, let's say, well, no problem.

I'll tell my client just to tell the truth. I have met with him. I know that he won't lie to the police, that he won't make any mistakes. Okay, that's no guarantee that you won't get in trouble, because even if your client is innocent and he's just telling the truth and not saying anything false. Now I would care if you were close enough to Fantasyland. The chances of anyone being able to pull it off are pretty slim, no matter how innocent they may be, but do the same. Let's assume he doesn't give the police anything other than the information. true and he is totally innocent, he will always give the police some information that can be used to help convict him, always, for example, suppose you say this to the police, this is what your client tells the police in his denial of guilt.

Don't know. What are you talking about. I didn't kill Jones. I don't know who did it. He was not near that place. I don't have a gun. I've never owned a gun in my life. I even know how to use a gun, yeah sure, I never like that guy, but who did? He wouldn't kill him. I have never listened to anyone in my life and I would never do such a thing. Let's assume every word of that is 100% true. Is what the jury will hear at trial true? The officer went bankrupt. Was there something about this?

The interrogation of him. His interview with the suspect made him worry that it might be the right one. Yes. He confessed to me that he never liked the guy. then the prosecutor put it in big letters and will say ladies and gentlemen, it's pretty clear that we have the right guy here, we have proven that he was in Virginia Beach that night, that's the chance and remember that Officer Brouk admitted that After a long question, he was finally able to get the defendant to admit that he never liked the guy, there's the reason, the reason plus the opportunity, bam, bam, please, but juries eat it up and innocent people are convicted this way, sometimes, how often, hopefully, not very often, but we know what happens the Supreme Court of the United States don't take my word for it in Ohio v.

Ryan of the Supreme Court of the United States said to quote that one of The basic functions of the Fifth Amendment is to protect innocent men who might otherwise be caught in ambiguous circumstances. The truthful answers of an innocent witness, as well as those of a wrongdoer, can provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speaker's own mouth. Look, it's not just a criminal defense attorney telling you this, even the Supreme Court says I'm right on the fact under the The facts of that case, by the way, in Ohio v. Reiner, a child tragically died, apparently as a result of shaken baby syndrome.

The question was who had shaken this baby to death and one of the possible suspects was a babysitter who had spent some time with the child. that week the babysitter's story was I don't know what you're talking about I didn't kill the child I don't see I didn't get to heaven I don't know who shook the baby it was never me I never did anything of a violent nature toward the child, the State Court of Ohio said, well, you don't have Fifth Amendment privilege, you yourself would admit that you would have told investigators that you haven't done anything wrong and that you weren't involved, so obviously your answers can't incriminate you to the Supreme Court of the United States overturned and said well that's not true even though they fired this babysitter he denies shaking the child he denies seeing the dead child and I know he denies knowing how the child died this babysitter, by his own admission, was apparently That being the case, the government wanted to ask if the babysitter could have been with the child at any time during the week before the death and that answer, although not enough on its own to convict anyone, could help convict her, she You have a Fifth Amendment right. have refused to answer the question the court asked because it could be used to help convict Allman v.

United States, the Supreme Court said more than 50 years ago eerily prescient, they said that many Americans, even those who should be better advised , see this privilege as a haven for wrongdoers, they too easily assume that those who invoke it are guilty of a crime or commit perjury and claim the privilege, that is not true and never has been, but it gets worse. Kenny favors, he can be number 5 even if his client is innocent and is only telling the truth and doesn't tell the police anything incriminating, which, by the way, is almost impossible to achieve. I mean, he imagines talking to the police for two, three, four hours and someone like him can't somehow get it out of you. is something that could be used to help convict you, it's extraordinary, I think someone has pulled it off, but even if you could pull it off, there's still a strong chance that your answers could and will be used to crucify you in a court of law if the police , no offense, I don't remember his testimony with 100% accuracy, now this brings us back to that pop quiz I warned you about that I told you before, remember it's only been a few minutes and you weren't awake all night and you were on the topic of physical coercion you were in the relaxed atmosphere of a classroom here you were warned in advance that you would be questioned about this question we will start with a couple of easy questions remember the article I read you about how many people the police found dead shot last night in that apartment with an ocean view that I told you about a1 b2 c3 d4 whoever says a b c understands this so go there with a camera show move that camera look how many hands we have there for C ok D they are all wrong everyone who raised hand everyone who raised their hand you are the type of people who should never talk to the police under any circumstances or as long as you live why C is not the correct answer? the way if you know raise your hand yes excellent I didn't say someone was shot I didn't say gun bullet shoot firearms I didn't use any of those words but I don't blame you if you thought I did this is the way the human mind works we hear things, we fill in details, I said mafia style slang that may or may not apply to something but it doesn't mean someone was shot and that's the problem you see even if your client is innocent and just telling the truth and not telling them anything incriminating and his statement is videotaped his responses can be used to crucify him you could say wait how can that happen I was insistent I called the police and said look you want to talk to my client, you can talk to him but only if you finish the whole thing .

I don't want there to be any debate between you two about what happened. Okay, videotape the whole thing if the police don't remember their questions. with 100% accuracy you will be convicted on that statement alone, for example say a man goes to the police and they tell him we are investigating a possible murder, a shooting and the guy says "I don't know who killed the officer "Brooke of Jones." With all due respect, it wasn't me. I have never touched or fired a gun in my life. How can that help incriminate a man? How could they be used against this man to help convict him?

You think it's inconceivable, but it's as easy as pie. The officer has to do is read this statement to the jury and then the prosecutor says that the officer's evidence was that there was something in that statement that confused or surprised him. Yes, there was, he says in a moment of sinister courtroom drama, and what was that? and then, obviously, Brooke turned to the jurors and said, "I never said anything about a shooting. I said we were investigating a murder. He was the one who pulled out a gun. Then he talks to his client. His client says that that's not true.

That's not true. Remember he was one of the police. I was with him for three hours. One of them in the car said something about them saying they had a witness that I was the shooter. Okay, I'll put you on the stand and then your client testify no no no, they told me he shot, I mentioned they mentioned before saying something about a gun, they mentioned it first and then the police said that's not true. and now what is your word against theirs so you are playing with your clients. Life and police officers can easily make a mistake like that, just as many of you did just a few minutes ago, about whether you remember telling me.

Heard something about someone being shot. The police make mistakes innocently, inadvertently, unintentionally, with any statement, no matter how outlandish. pictorially it may seem on your face can be used to crucify you on its own if the police are willing to lie, not likely or if they simply have an innocent mistake in gathering the details about what they did and did not tell you before that you said it. them what you said all these by the way all these problems go away if you follow Jackson's justice advice and say thank you very much opposed by no thank you how about this here we go now here it isthe most surprising of all?

I've saved the most surprising For last, let's say you have the following scenario: Your client is thinking about talking to the police, acts like I have nothing to hide, they think I killed someone last night in Virginia Beach, very tired and this. is what and this is what your client tells you in confidence I don't know who robbed that store it wasn't me in fact I have a pretty good alibi I wasn't even in Virginia Beach that night last night I was Four hours away visiting my mother in Outer Banks, unfortunately no, I did not pay the guests by credit card.

I used cash, so I have no witnesses who can prove I was there except my word and of course mom, for what that's worth. which is nothing more than your client saying, "Come on, the police want to talk to me and I want to seem cooperative, so what I'm going to do is tell them I was in the Outer Banks last night. No, there's nothing on the face." incriminate about any of that, let's assume by the way that you will believe with all your doubts that you have given your client a polygraph exam that you have given him. you have known him for years you have been attending the same Bible study for 30 years you know without a doubt You doubt he's telling you the truth and he doesn't admit anything He doesn't admit motive He doesn't admit opportunity He doesn't admit what it was How the hell could this come back to haunt us?

How on earth could it be used against us again? Be honest, raise your hand if you really think the answer to that question is I don't see how it could be used against us. I'm afraid I'll call you right now I won't call you well you're wrong you're completely wrong you're always wrong everything you say every time you talk to the police you'll regret it you see the problem is here, this is the last point. I think he is almost willing even if his client is innocent and is only telling the truth and doesn't tell the police anything incriminating and all the interview questions and answers are videotaped.

It's even yours. Truthful answers can be helped by crucifying even an innocent man if the police, through no fault of their own, end up in possession of any evidence, including erroneous and unreliable evidence that everything their client told them was false, even if it was actually true again. Going back to this example from a moment ago, suppose I tell you that I go ahead and meet with the police. I think I have nothing to hide. I'm telling you I was in the Outer Banks last night, officer, how can that be used to convict me? It can't help anything on its own, but what if I later discover to my horror, after putting my cards on the table, that they have a girl I went to high school with and a peach as a witness? witness, we have never been enemies, she would have no reason to lie, she swears that she believes she saw me last night in Virginia Beach, a couple of blocks from that store, about an hour before it was robbed, now her testimony alone does not it is.

I'm going to help the prosecutor, if she's all they have I'll have this case thrown out before trial, but she's like an idiot. I spoke to the police and told them the truth. I told them I was in the Outer Banks and now, lo and behold, tragically, it turns out that they have a witness, a false mistake and a confused but sincere, incredible witness, who could testify that I was here in Virginia Beach. Now they are lucky to get a conviction because what will they do. I just made this cop and this woman the government's star witness, they're going to put her on hold, they're going to have Officer Brooke testify about how my client lied to her about being in the Outer Banks, and then they're going to put this girl up like this. the girl who otherwise wouldn't have even helped with the case at all who will testify no, that's not true, that was a lie.

I saw mr. Dwayne's client here in Virginia an hour before the robbery, not far from the store, she alone would not have helped the government in any meaningful way, but what I just did is give you the other part of the puzzle and now. I'm damned, I just asked them. I close, I close with this example. Here we have a couple of recent celebrity examples of a dish of aya that even people who don't admit to anything always end up denying it. I mean, I'm sorry, they didn't always end up regretting it. On the left we have Martha Stewart, she was the victim and the subject of an extensive government investigation that was looking into the possibility that she was guilty of violations of certain federal laws, securities laws, fraud, types of things that couldn't be blamed on her. of that, but they could. to a conviction because she denied it by talking to the police and bringing someone to the shareholders she said no, it's not true, I was not guilty, so they accused her of lying to federal investigators and they got a conviction and she was sentenced to five months in prison.

Marion Jones on the right side another person who would still be out today if she had always followed the advice I am giving you now was asked if she had ever used the steroids of her a controlled substance and instead of taking the fifth she said no. I never took steroids when I won those Olympic gold medals. It later turned out that she was lying. She made a blue deal, so you pleaded guilty. She admitted that she was lying and overcame her strong, tearful objection even though she has two children. Children was recently sentenced to prison for six months.

The guy who sold him the viewing rights. The trafficker, he only got four months, but she got six months because she lied to the police and said she didn't do it. She already sees the problem. Michael Vick. who originally pleaded guilty, as you know, to these charges with respect to the operation of this type of dog fighting operation in his home at the time of sentencing, like many other criminal defendants, although he ultimately pleaded guilty to sentencing one of the reasons why his sentence was a little harsher than it might have been otherwise, the judge said it was because when he initially met with the police, he lived, they said that I didn't do anything, I didn't do it, I don't know what you're talking about.

Even guilty people, but not just guilty people, will always end up regretting ever talking to the police, so my advice to you, Judge Jackson, you were right, any sane, competent lawyer in his right mind will always tell every customer, under all circumstances, I don't care if you. You're innocent I don't care if it's the truth If it's the truth Great, we'll tell the jury everything There will be enough time to take our cards off the table but before we get there I still haven't seen what the police got, they may have gotten lost and confused witnesses who contradict even the truthful things you say, we have no way of knowing, no way of predicting whether the information you give them, even if truthful and reliable, will end up unintentionally dispelling our demise. keep your mouth shut don't answer any questions let's take the fifth you'll be glad you did God bless America God bless the blessed the Bill of Rights and the geniuses who bequeathed it to us but now, to be fair, I give them equal time or There is equal time left for a police officer to explain how much he agrees or disagrees with something I have to say.

I had no idea I knew what he was going to say, but Be interesting, let me get on the microphone. Let's shake hands with the group of tourists. Virginia Beach Police Department. I can't speak that fast, not even in the interview. I'm going to take the podium here, professor, because I took notes on some of the things. you said and everything he said was true, okay, it was right and it was correct, I'll just give you some ideas, I'll tell you some examples, but first I'll give you a little bit of information as it was. As I said before, I interviewed thousands of people.

I interviewed people with foreign police departments when I was in the Navy. He was in law enforcement and was a criminal investigator. Thank God we are in the United States because most of the interviews are in Italy and Spain. and so on, start physically well, there is no police abuse by the police there, they can pretty much do whatever they want whenever they want and however they want, so be aware of that and appreciate the most important question that was asked to me by the first time. I am a 3L student and there are some of my classmates here.

The best days will be May 10, when we'll be leaving, so those of you who are applying, and I told a couple of people who think it's hard to get into law school, try to get out, okay? One of the things I was asked: How can I stop getting speeding tickets? Very easy question: stop accelerating, okay, but something that Professor Duane mentioned. Are any of you guilty of something? How many of you drove here today? Does anyone go over fifty-five on the interstate? Does anyone drive home and go over fifty-five on the interstate because if you bet and here and there you go and people are inherently honest and that's their biggest disadvantage, okay, they really are or they want to tell their story and if You're driving down 55 on the interstate where it's 55 the only thing you're going to do is run into the person behind you because they're going to rear-engine, they're going to hit you, okay that's a fact, but everyone does something that It can cause them problems because I can. continue as a police officer, I was in uniform, I could follow a car for as long as necessary and eventually they will do something illegal and I can stop them and it is justifiably illegal to stop them so be aware don't do it.

Don't think you're so innocent when you get pulled over for a traffic ticket. Everyone likes to be somewhat honest and what's the first thing the police officer asks you? Do you know how fast you're going if the speed limits are 35? you'll say oh 38 40 because you want to be somewhat honest even though you're doing 50 you just said 38 40 you just admitted to breaking the law you just confessed so they can go to court with a confession so they're going over the speed limit, like this that I think they should think about those things and when they become defense attorneys, which, maybe, who knows, they should think about those things for their clients.

The other thing is that they have to think about their customers and this. It's going to sound very concise people are stupid their clients are stupid and I've had defense attorneys come to me, in fact one with a motion to suppress on Tuesday came to me and said his client was stupid, okay, They are very direct. They do stupid things, they talk to the police, you guys have to be aware of that now in my past and it wasn't exaggerated. I have interviewed thousands of people. I have arrested and dealt with well over a thousand serious crimes. actually, over a thousand felonies probably got 20 cars, yeah, about a thousand guys, 2,500 misdemeanors, 98% of a conviction rate, eighty percent of them, I don't even have to go to court, because there are confessions , because they confess, then these people don't have any problem.

Hardened criminals have no problem talking to the police. people like to tell their story and they sit in that room and think about it. The police pick you up You are in a small room There is a chair Here there is a desk There is another chair, what do you want most? At that time, leave that room, leave that room, I think the police officers, the police officers' shift ends in 15 minutes, does the police officer want to leave that room? My overtime costs $58 an hour. Do I want to leave that room? I have no problem. I will stay there for 10 hours.

I'll say I'll take that $600. Okay, so I have no motivation to want to leave. and that's how we get you to try to talk. I have my job. My job is to develop probable cause. develop a good case. A great case is a case with a confession. take it to the Commonwealth's Attorney so they can prosecute the case for little. If there is any effort and the Commonwealth's Attorney loves those cases, the little effort is because they come with such a high stack of files in court every day, so they love those cases, that's my job, the job of the defense attorneys is waiting for them to reach their client. before you do it and make sure you don't talk to me no matter what I give you an example and this will go along with what Professor Glenn was giving the examples of him.

I had an interview that went something like this: Was he involved in the robberies? No, I had nothing to do with them, you had nothing to do, no, you were in a car with all this stolen stuff in it, yeah, nothing to do, you knew you knew it was there, yeah, okay, now we have a felony charge of possession of stolen property. okay, but you had nothing to do with it, so why did you need the money? I had to pay some of my court costs for something else I got in trouble for, oh so he took the money from the theft of things I have enough to collect. him now with theft, as simple as that, you would see the image on that camera of the house with the Christmas decorations.

This is a real case scenario. Yes, did you go to that house? No, I didn't get into that one, so there are ways around it. ways to get around people who try not to talk to you and again, like Professor Dwayne said, if you want to go and say thatYou want to go to a boxing match, a hundred dollars if you win, you've never boxed before, you have to face someone an Olympic boxer you're going to lose, you're going to face someone who's been interviewing people for twenty-eight years, in my case, they're going to lose unless you are purely innocent, now, on the other side, I don't want to put anyone who is innocent in jail, but I try not to bring anyone into the interview room that is innocent and there is a couple that I let go because They were innocent, okay, the interviews, how do we approach the interviews?

There are several ways to approach them. In interviews there are several types of people I deal with first thing in the morning. Anyone knows what they say first when they are in an interview. Miranda Miranda Warning Okay, it's not a right, you don't have the right to Miranda, they have those rights. It's always been theirs called the Constitution, you're just teaching, you're giving a very quick lecture on the Constitution to these people, they usually don't listen to it and that's how I get my Miranda warning look. I have to tell you this. just pay attention, it's okay, they are usually sitting down or very attentive, you have the right to remain silent, do you understand that yes, anything you say can be used against you in court?

I don't have to say it, I will be. They say it may be okay and they understand that you have the right to have a lawyer and if you cannot afford one, one can be assigned to represent you. They have to decide not to talk, to stop talking to me at any time and exercise these rights. you understand that, sure now before you do the main thing that is needed with those rights and that is to get a waiver. I'm saying it now, before you say anything, let me tell you what I know and for as long as I've had to piece together what this individual was supposedly involved in and I don't say supposedly because the professor sitting there that this individual was involved in, I'll tell the story. story that I put together and it will be pretty close to what happened and I can see that it is pretty close to what happened because that guy starts slumping in his chair, puts his hand to his face and does this in his mind, oh my God, I'll go to jail forever, okay, and I can see it.

I said it now that I know what I know you want to talk to me and why I do that because if I don't, if I say you want to talk to me they will say no, so I give them time to think and then the next sentence comes now, before You start talking to me, let me tell you the difference between a lie and a truth, if you lie to me and I go before the judge and tell the judge that you were dishonest with me, that's just not going to happen. make them happy, but if I go before the judge and tell them that you are honest and direct and are willing to take responsibility for your actions, that will help you, that is not a lie, although that is true in the courts of Virginia Beach, they will will help you know they might not get five years they might get three years they will still go to prison or still commit a felony but that will help them and then I have to determine what kind of person I have and there are two types. one like the one I mentioned before, where I have to talk to him, talk to him about different things, get under his own skin as they say and try to get them to talk to me and discuss things.

I had a sexual assault case. I had to talk to the guy about how sexy the woman was and I understand where he was coming from and when I said we were friends and he started talking to me and he's still in prison okay so you have to go in there and you have to go to the other side and that is that I cannot try to act as if that individual acted well. I can't try to act like what we affectionately call a neighborhood rat. I can't try to act and talk like him because I'm an older white man, we don't talk like that and that would be an insult and you can't insult people, no matter who they are, no matter where they grew up, no matter where they grew up.

You can't insult people like that, you have to be yourself, so you have to get into the mindset of the way they think and have a discussion with him. The other type of person is the one who likes to tell stories. I love this great young man to death he didn't go to jail because I went to bat for him because I felt sorry for him he was a newlywed he was having money problems ex marine I told him tell me what happened and he told me he told me this beautiful story of what happened, what he had done was that he had sold some equipment that his ex-employer had owned and that he had stolen.

He told me the beautiful story of what happened when he found it on the side of the road and everything. that kind of thing Dameon asked about it after he finished his whole story very badly, the story is very beautiful, I sat there and listened to it for 15 minutes, I looked and said, you stole your boss's things, didn't you? So? Yes sir. He had nothing, he really had nothing, except the fact that he had sold it, so there are those types of people and then the third type, the one who tries to be the bully, the one who tries to be the criminal, who cries like a baby when he comes in. jail, but when they're on the street it's tough as nails, you go in there with your papers, you sit down and start doing the paperwork and you usually have a video tape on you just for good measure, so they think I have a video tape and you just sit there, don't tell them, Miranda, just sit there and wait for them to start talking because they will want to talk, people want to communicate, they hate silence, that's why when people talk, you listen hmm when they talk, because they need to fill that empty with something people hate silence so that's the other so that's another way so you see how there's an uneven playing field here even with the most educated individual there's an uneven playing field if you talk to the police, everything will be recorded if they stop you for a fine, they give you the fine and you take it away.

Do you ever see the police officer leave right after you? Usually no, that's because on the back of your ticket they are writing down everything you said and it will go to court if you go to court everything you said I write down every phone call I make you have to have a recording device listening is so illegal how many parties need to know that a telephone conversation in Virginia is being recorded I know it's recorded I get a lot of confessions over the phone Okay, back to the people Yes, they're stupid Okay, people are stupid I had a young man tell me he said directly I'm going to college I'm going to law school I'm too smart, you'll never find out what happened, okay, he was going to Tidewater Community College, the law school of, I guess, Tidewater Community College, he was the partner of that one. who I told you about the interview a moment ago, where I asked him why he needed the money, because he was his partner and he was very intelligent, so he thought he was a very intelligent individual.

I ended up arresting him five times outside his house. His mother hated me. He liked me the first time. she apologized, he didn't really like me that much the second time, it got to the point where he really hated me after that, he's doing eight years upstate, he's very smart because he decided to tell me how smart he was and by telling me how smart he was. Did he miss that he doesn't sell stolen things to pawn shops, he sells them at flea markets because they don't have to report them to the state? I know how to drive to a flea market as well as anyone else and go look for things I'm looking for, so he was trying to impress me with his ability to be smarter than me and confessed that people are inherently stupid, especially criminals now. and don't get me wrong, there are some very smart criminals out there and most of them work in really big office buildings for suits, yes she went to jail, does it hurt?

No, but there are also some very smart street criminals who get other people to do their bidding, etc., etc., and people are afraid of turning on them, but there are some very dumb people, just a couple more things. I usually do something with younger people, usually between 16 and 25 years old. I try not to deal too much with young people, but it is between 16 and 25 years old. once you guys have talked to me let's back up a bit, you don't need a court recording for a statement as professor Dwayne said it's his word against mine if he was defendant number one and that's how it works. and that's how the real world works, in case you haven't been out there, next to the windows, the jury looks at a defendant sitting next to a Pross defense attorney who is on strike because the jury is already looking at that. song like someone who did something that put them in that number two chair they have a uniformed police officer up there they have someone dressed in a detective suit up there who is a professional witness who is strike two so now they have a witness professional against them and then if they have confessed and that professional witness is going to sit there and read his notes, the third strike confession, go get your orange jumpsuit, don't pass, don't charge $200 for them to have all these tricycles again. and I know that you are innocent until proven guilty, but it is a jury of your peers and the perception is that if you are sitting next to a defense attorney you have to prove that you are innocent and that is just the perception of many of the The jury no matter how many instructions they receive, they still perceive that the person is a thug, they are a criminal and no matter how much the defense attorneys try to put suits on their clients and make them sit at the table if the trial is long.

They go back to their old ways and start acting and speaking in a way that is not very good for their case, so by saying that it is not necessary to have a recording, I am saddened to hear a statement, I was trying to be suppressed because when I record a confession or an interview because we don't do interrogations, the police don't do interrogations, that's a bad Nazi word, okay, we do interviews, okay, you'd be surprised how much difference it makes when you use that one-word tip. It's the interrogation I'll take it off the tape and have my secretary put it on paper for me until later I'll take that tape and scan it with my magnet I'll put it in my box so I can use it again I don't keep the tape, it's not evidence, it's not It needs to be evidence, it's there if it's there for the court, it's just an extra, you don't need to have that, but it's really nice to have the suppression hearing that he tried to suppress.

After testifying, the defense attorney stood up and said, well, judge, I really don't have anything to say and the judge, Judge Canada, said the motion was denied and let's go ahead and go to court so you don't have to have to have recordings. You have to have video tapes, the police video tapes, that's extra if you have that police officer sitting there, fun quiz, you don't need to have that video tape, you have the guy that was there to tell you what happened , but it's always nice to have. those extra things and what I do for these young people is say: look, the person whose house you broke into is very upset, they are very angry because you sold their things to the pawn shop, the pawn shop's things they sold to them and they don't understand them. their stuff back they are very angry they want you to go to prison okay they may be very angry they want you to go to prison maybe they want to slow down that is the beginning of what is commonly known as lying because we are allowed to lie in interviews to learn that you might want to make them happy and the reason is that when it's a felony in the Commonwealth of Virginia, the victim has nothing to do with the prosecution or how long people go to prison or anything like that. type of things we are processing them not to be victims but to diminish what I would like you to do is write an apology letter to the person whose house you broke into, just write it and well, how do I write it in yours? right words you know I'm sorry for what I did so I said you know when I came into your house the other night whatever you put up with it you sign it I sign it as a witness I put the date the time it was written I give it to the Commonwealth's Attorney presents as evidence as a confession written in the person's handwriting I do not write it again and ask him to sign it in his handwriting a written confession if that person is going to be convicted I have never done it I have not seen him convicted of that in a letter of apology, so in support of Professor Dwayne, everything he says is correct, that is what I do now to remove support from him.

I'm not trying to send innocent people to jail, that's all, that's all I have. questions or something sir