1993 SPECIAL REPORT: FULL SAMMY "THE RAT" GRAVANO TESTIMONY TO U.S. SENATE

with the president it's okay, it's okay, if you want to remain standing, please, our first witness is Salvador Gravano, mr. Gravano is currently in federal custody and is cooperating with the government as he awaits Mr. Gravano has testified as a government witness in several important trials and will testify in other future cases given the sensitive nature of Mr.

gravano

s position as a cooperating witness we have agreed to limit his

testimony

to matters related to professional boxing we appreciate the cooperation of all members of the subcommittee to comply with this understanding we swear in all witnesses before this subcommittee, so if you hold your right hand, I will give you the oath, you swear, the

testimony

you give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God, thank you, were you able to sit Logano, you have a lawyer with you today, mr.

President, my name is John Gleeson. I am an Assistant United States Attorney in Brooklyn, New York, Chief of the Organized Crime Section, and I am overseeing the Criminal Investigations that Mr. Gravano is participating in. I have worked with subcommittee staff to facilitate your appearance here today. We are pleased to be represented by counsel. Obviously that's not me. Thank you. We appreciate your cooperation. Senator Roth Gravano. Could you continue with his testimony? Good afternoon sir. . president of the shuttle members and talked directly to him, you put him right in front of you and maybe tilt him up a little bit so he can talk, take your time and just talk directly into the microphone, okay, thank you very much, what such? afternoon mr. chairman and members of the subcommittee my name is Salvatore Gravano at the beginning of my life I was nicknamed Sammy the bull.

I've been in jail since December 1990, when I was arrested with John Gotti. She was his underboss and Gambino's second in command. family I've been involved with organized crime since 1968, when I associated with a guy named Shorty Sparrow from the Columbo family. I committed many types of crimes when I was with Shorty including my first murder in 1972. I was officially released from the Colombo family to the Gambino family I became a member of the Gambino family in 1976 at that time Paul Castellano was the boss of the Gambino family in December 1995 John Gotti I along with some others murdered Paul Castellano we took over the family John Gotti became the boss a couple of weeks later I became captain in 1987 I became interim wounded Lea of ​​our family.

I later became the weapons officer Lea in January 1990 I accepted the position of chief's officer which I held until I began to cooperate with the government. in 1991 I decided to cooperate before I, John Gotti, and our flexible act in Frank LoCascio went to trial. I testified in that trial and in some others. I will testify in more trials in the near future as part of my agreement with the government. I pleaded guilty to a charge that carries a maximum sentence of 20 years instead of the life sentence I would face if convicted at trial as part of my cooperation.

I told the government about my life of crimes, including the fact that I participated in 19 murders. As a member of our family management, I helped John Gotti lead the family. My primary responsibility was to monitor the construction industry in New York. I did this by working with union officials and companies that were owned or controlled by our family and dealing with other families that also control certain companies and have been asked to testify here today about mafia involvement and professional boxing. I don't know much about what other families have been doing in boxing, but I do know about our family, which the Gambino family has basically come out of.

In boxing at some point around or before 1960 we were involved in other things that made more money, but I have always had an interest in boxing. I boxed law when I was in the military and picked it up again a few years before I got arrested. I went to Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn every week and worked out sometimes. I went to some rounds with other people who trained them. I often attended fights in New York and New Jersey, including the 1988 Mike Tyson vs. Larry Holmes fight in Atlantic City, which I attended with John Gotti. I met a heavyweight named Reynaldo Snipes and his manager, whom I knew sold.

I tried to set up a fight between Snipes and Francisco Damiani, who was the undefeated European and WBO heavyweight champion. Damiani was with an organized crime family in Italy since our family had close ties to the Italian family. I was able to schedule a meeting with Danny Annie's people, they came to New York and we discussed the possibility of a fight with Snipes at that time Damiani was already scheduled to fight Rey Marcin one of the What I did to try to set up a fight against Damiani Snipes was approaching me to set up a meeting with a guy who was in charge of boxing for Donald Trump.

I think his name was Mark Harris Snipes, his manager's cell and I met with this Mark in Atlantic City told us that a fight between Damiani and Snipes would sell Mark, he thought it would be even bigger if Snipes had a high ranking with one of boxing sanctioning bodies. Joe Watts, who was an associate, now the family told me they had someone in Las Vegas. Who could help us get a ranking for Snipes Watts? He fixed me up meaning where Joey Curtis, a boxing referee in Las Vegas. Joey Curtis once visited our club, the Ravenite social club in New York City, so I went to Las Vegas with two of my friends and our wives, after having dinner with Curtis, I took him aside and then asked him if could make Snipes rise in the rankings.

Curtis said he could move up Snipes in the rankings of the World Boxing Council, which is based in Mexico. Curtis said this would cost ten thousand, but since it was a favor for John Gotti, he could do it for about five thousand. My idea from the beginning was to use the Damiani Snipes fight as a setup fight to get Damiani a big payday. Mike Tyson, my plan was for Snipes to have a high ranking and then make him look good but lose Damiani. I never discussed this with Snipes because Damiani lost to me which left Danny Ani out of the picture for a major fight, I'm sure we wouldn't have had any problem convincing Snipes to lose to another fighter.

Our family has an interest in his friend McGirt, who recently lost his WBC welterweight title. His manager is Al Sardo, who is an associate of the Gambino family. Al Sardo is with Joe Joe Carazzo, who was a member of our family. I know that he is with our family because Joe Joe recorded it with his captain Peter Gotti. An issue also arose between our family and the Bufalino family about who McGirt was with Eddie, he scanned Riya, the guns, Lea from the The Bufalino family complained to John Gotti that the Bufalinos had a piece of Magary.

Dad told me that he set up a meeting with Scandia and Joe Joe to resolve the problem. In fact, I had several meetings with Joe Joe and the Scan jury about this. Joe Joe said that he had paid Andrea some money to get away from consideration, but now he wanted to get back in the scanner because McGary had done well and he was getting bigger wallets after listening to both of them. I recommended to John Gotti that Joe Joe was right and that McGirt stays with Joe. Joe and our family, any schedule were not happy with my decision and kept coming back looking for more meaning.

I got tired of meeting with the scanning jury about this, but out of respect for his position and age, Frank LoCascio, who was part of our management, continued to talk to him but our position never changed Sara Dolan McGirt stayed with our family I should point out that the person he was with who was really with us was Al shame his relationship with Joe Joe Caruso is how we had a part of McGurk McGarrett is a fighter and although I regret bringing him around the club wants to introduce him to some people, it really wouldn't be fair to I say he was an organized crime associate, but Soto was with us and that gave us our interest in McGurk, our family.

He wasn't the only family in boxing, although I don't know the details. I know several other families are involved in boxing in some capacity, but you should know that our involvement in boxing has changed from the way it used to be. Many people think that organized crime makes money by fixing fights and betting on the winner, that really doesn't happen anymore. Prices have gone up so much that it doesn't make sense to fix a fight to collect the bet while we, because we would consider fixing a fight. fight to set up a big payday fight like the one I had in mind for Damiani, the money is in the wallets, not in the bets, besides, boxing is a risky business for the bookmakers, you couldn't bet a lot of money in a fight, even if you wanted to.

So the interest today is to get a piece of a successful boxer until a boxer reaches a certain level you can't make much money because the prices are small but once a box has been successful the family that has it can benefit from that success. Now, due to the size of prices that have increased so much in the last 20 years, organized crime is increasingly interested in getting involved again at this time. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have about organized crime. in boxing Thank you sir. Gravano and I will ask you just a few questions and then we will turn to Senator Roth and my colleagues.

You stood here and quote that you couldn't bet a lot of money on a fight, even if to finish, quote, what do you call a lot of money? I imagine that between 40 and 50 thousand and more, you can't make bets greater than 30 and $40,000 on a fight today, that's not what the bookmakers on the street know, they probably wouldn't take that kind of action and how that changed throughout the year. years with you could bet a lot of money in the past and you can't now yes, years ago: the prices were quite small and they filtered the bets and they were more likely to get the bets years ago than today, why?

That the bookmakers will not accept big bets on fights today, are they worried about the fights being fixed and what are they worried about? I imagine they are worried that the fights will be one-sided. I don't know to what extent they are fixed, but in some of the fights there are total mismatches and I really wouldn't want to get involved in the action. There's no way to set the odds that just when you have a mismatch, well, they do, but they won't take a lot of money. I'll take small money, 1,2000, maybe 5,000, maybe even 10,000 if you find a pretty big betting operation, but I really don't think they'll go overboard with the bets on when it changed, what time period, and what caused it to change.

I've always mentioned one-sided fights, no, but I imagine they moved away when we moved away when we tried to organize and move away from the boxing industry. I think our bets slowed down. I think everything stopped in that area when it did. Organized crime moved away from the boxing industry around the time of Rocky Marciano, when people like that were involved, our people, I mean mafia people were involved and we had closer ties to boxing and I imagine there were a lot of more bets and many more situations. I think the creation of bookmakers and the betting houses became a little more sophisticated, there are even some tracks, horses, horse betting races and some tracks that they would stay away from and take no action on.

There were also some games where they wouldn't take action, but you could take action if you wanted to call a knockout, what round or something like that would make the bet very, very difficult and complicated and what were the banks that were so profitable that that crime organized crime basically decided to get away from boxing later in the Marciano era what things changed in organized crime then was that when organized crime started getting into narcotics Oh, what were the things that were so lucrative that organized crime lost interest in it boxing? I think organized crime became more sophisticated at that time. got into the construction unions, clothing junk shipping and they became much more lucrative than the boxing industry prices were very, very small, that would have been in the 1950's during the 50's and 60's Yes, that's why I said in the 60s and before, what when?

Organized crime came back into boxing recently, we've recently gotten interested again in talking about my own family going to the Gleason gym. I met some fighters and tried to put something together. I had a conversation with John Gotti, John and myself. He had urged me to see if we could reach out and put together some potential gyms or promoters or fights and see if we could get involved in the boxing industry again in that period. I found out that we could reach out to certain people who are quite successful in the boxing industry and I felt that given enough time we could get back to this and in what period of time during what period of time was it when you had these conversations with John, this was a time , maybe a year, maybe a little more sooner.I was arrested and detained maybe even a little bit before that, so it's been in the last five years, so yeah, what kind of reward were you expecting and anticipating by getting involved again?

You would get a certain percentage of the purses, that's how you were going to get paid well, there are a lot of different benefits. At one point, I myself negotiated to buy Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn because it had a name and a reputation. We'd probably start with getting a gym. We would have some coaches like an al. Sir, I will bring McGuirk or other people to train there if the prices become very high and lucrative when I reach half a million and better yet, we could spend some of the money inside the gym through training expenses. not just direct counterpunching but also through training expenses by putting people to work on that particular point of their corner to promote for many reasons and then we also felt that some of the fighters would have been good apart from just the money when some of our people are in trouble and our trials, we will be able to bring some of them into the trial to provide support to the people who are in the trial, so that some of the jurors will be impressed with the people who would vent and perhaps influence in some of the juries.

There are a lot of different reasons why we thought they would be good contacts, connections with Trump, Steve Wynn or anyone in that capacity, we wouldn't stop strictly, our eyes wouldn't stop strictly on boxing once we got into the circle, you wanted to use this. for a broader and more pervasive influence, then well, we wouldn't limit ourselves strictly to boxing, we would put someone if he could start it, we would probably have put a captain of our family in charge of that boxing industry and once we had four Overall, Yes, we would have diversified into as many areas as we could.

We would have understood that both Buddy McGirt and Snipes attended parts of John Gotti's trial. Do you know if they were asked to do it and if so, who would have asked them properly? again it would have been in the mcgoats case it would have been a little it would have been John Gotti who would have contacted Joe Joe carazzo who would ask al Sardo to take McGurk to trial but it would look good as far as Reynaldo Snipes was close For me, I don't really know who asked him at that particular time. Thank you very much Thunder.

In response to a question to the president, you said that there were certain people in boxing that you thought you could reach out to and that is one of the reasons why you came back to boxing. Who were those people that you thought you could reach well? ? In some of our conversations, when we were trying to set up the fight with Reynaldo Snipes and Damiani to get to Donald Trump, we came to an artist named Jimmy Roselli. Jimmy Roselli has a brother-in-law who is a big player and Gamble's in Atlantic City and we used that resource to get to Donald Trump.

We know that Lou Duva was close to people in the Genovese family. I really don't know if he is with these people, but I know he has relationships with some of those people and we could contact him. Marvin Hagler was very close to the Petrocelli brothers. We thought one of them might even be a member of one of the New England families, but they were his trainers and we could contact them at one point. We contacted Don King, who responded to us that he had problems with the government and problems with taxes. and that I didn't think it was the right time to meet. and we contacted a Raymond Patriarca from a New England family who would contact a Cleveland family and they had access to Don King.

He seemed to have some control over Don King and they would explain in the next request to meet with him for John Gotti and me that it would be best for him to meet with us and we knew that Nicky Scaro had some interest in some fighters and other families in the whole country. There was a guy named Andrew Russo who was captain of the Columbo family and who has some sort of tie to a veto and a few months, so knowing this based knowledge we felt that if we went back to some of these places as areas where we could Having walked in when I met with Joey Curtis in Las Vegas, he told me that he knew Steve Wynn personally and asked me if the fight with Renaldo Snipes Damiani would happen, maybe we could even talk to Steve Wynn, so I realized that we could reach different areas in different people now that you've used the term with reach, can you?

Explain exactly what he means by the terms when he says he testifies about being with a particular organized crime family, what does that mean generally and specifically? Let me ask you that first, when you are with an organized crime family or as a member of a family. The named member goes to his captain and lets her know that he is with him and our family. The benefits of him are any connections I just mentioned that he may have if there is any other family in or out of the country. trying to get close to him, pressure him, it couldn't happen, he was already registered as being with us and was beyond our protection, our umbrella so to speak, but it wouldn't be done, no, no, he is a made member. another stage when a man after a period of years is with someone and is brought to a meeting and is sworn in and becomes a member, he is a

full

member, in other words, he is a blood member, blood member, Yes, and what do you mean by that? the word reach well reach if we don't know Donald Trump himself, we have ways to reach him and it's just it's just a moment that I'm using.

We would use Jimmy Roselli or Jimmy Rizzoli's brother-in-law or Bobby Sasso, who controls 282 Union in New York and Donald Trump obviously does a lot of construction and if Bobby seasoned the president of 282 Teamsters which is what our family would contact Donald Trump and tell them I would say that we were interested in meeting with him when I say that I am not referring to myself or John Gotti. I don't know if Trump would meet with us, but he would open the door for a meeting with Snipes' assistant manager or Damiani x's manager or whoever we put in charge of this to do it. seem legit after a while, John Gotti and I and people like us would probably take a backseat to someone who's a little cleaner now you said you know McGirt is with the Gambino family because Carozza went on the record with Peter Gotti, what are you doing?

It means leaving something on record when the moment a man is a member, he goes to see his captain, who is his supervisor right above him, goes up to him and leaves a record of what he is doing, what is dedicated. has who he has with him, this is recorded with his captain, his captain will bring it to management so that ultimately the boss has a good idea of ​​what the family has in many different industries and what contacts he has within the family, so if I wanted to get into boxing or if we wanted to get into boxing we would know right away that we could call Pete Gotti to send for Joe Joe.

We know we could get the pig Abunimah down that avenue if we assumed a different captain. I'm just using this as an example, I was close with some dova, we would get to that captain to get to a lude but ultimately the boss and management would know who has what it's just a matter of saying it, that's what What do we mean by put? Let the record show that you mentioned Peter, who is he, the Pentagon? He is John Ghani's brother, but the most important thing is that he is now a captain within our family. Is it possible that Buddy McGirt didn't know that part of his profits would go to organized crime?

It is very possible, very possible, yes, now you testified that several meetings were held to resolve a dispute between the Gambino and Bufalino families over who owned the portions of boxer McGirt's contract. I would like you to view an FBI surveillance video tape from November 15, 1989 and identify if you can the three individuals shown on this tape? You have to look. I think this screen here. Do you want me to respond? Senator. Who? Oh yes, if you could please the one in the middle. I think it's a canned joke. Rhea, the one there. The one on the right is me and the one on the left is Jojo Carazo.

Now these are the individuals who were involved in the dispute over who owned part of McGirt's contract. Yes, do you recognize the locations shown on this videotape? That's Mulberry Street Manhattan. it's the REA it's the ravenite club which is the headquarters of the Gambino family one of those rooms friend Gambino family now why were you walking around instead of inside the club discussing the matter? Of course, next we believed that the FBI had electronic surveillance in many different areas, so when we talked we usually took what we called a walking chat, we didn't think it would be caught by electronic surveillance, it was this one time, in fact, Was this one of the meetings about which organized crime, which organized crime family owned a piece of a Gertz contract, yes it was now how do you know that this particular videotape shows one of the McGurk meetings ?

I've never met with a dscan jury about anything other than McGurk before or since, so that was the only meeting you had with him. Only the meetings I had with him concerned Al Sorrow and McGurk. Now Jon has to tell you why he decided McGirt belonged in the Gambino organized crime family. He believed that he belonged to our family. By my decision, listening to Jojo Carazzo and Eddie, I scanned Riya. Upon hearing the story, I told him that he belongs to our family and that I based his decision on that. In other words, John told you that Jojo paid Eddie to stay away from Gert.

Now, upon meeting Joe, Joe Garagiola told me that he had paid at once. Once before, Eddie Scan was involved with Buddy McGirt and they were both involved and at one point they didn't get along and Joe Joe Carazzo paid. I think it was $5,000 to get the jury out of Eddie's scan, they didn't get along and Eddie. Skinner, who seemed to be happy to take the five thousand and leave some time later, seemed to be doing very, very well in the state of boxing, it was rising, prices were rising and he seemed to be coming back into the game and wanted to be involved, admitted that yes he accepted money, but said he took money from old funds that would work.

Joe Joe showed the prices he fought for and there was actually no money involved and there is no way he could have paid five grand or more for backed money that ran into the hundreds and I believed Joe Joe was telling this truth and this is what what did I tell John you stated in your initial testimony that the Colombo family handed him over to the Gambino family what did you mean by that well at that time he was not a fact member he was registered he was registered he was an associate of the Colombo family he was not a member made and I was registered with your family once you are registered who you belong to that family and an official statement is needed from that family for you to leave thank you my time is up sent a coin or something Senator McCain McCain Thank you mr. president Thank you mr.

Gravano for his testimony, it is very interesting, in part of his testimony he talked about a referee named Joey Curtis who could rise in the rankings of the World Boxing Council, yes sir, and that is the team that is headed by Mr. José Salomón, I think I really don't know who runs that organization. You are our fight fan, although yes and yes, if you have noticed in the past on other occasions that someone has risen in the WBC rankings in time for a fight and then that person disappears or falls again, have you seen that happens?

Well, it's common knowledge. I'm not surprised. I don't really follow that part, but it's basically common knowledge that it can be done. I was not sure. at that time, what sanctioning body did it because I wasn't really involved? Joey Curtis made me aware of this sanctioning body. I don't really know if any other sanctioning body does it or not, but it was common knowledge that it could be done, yes. It's not something that's a big secret if you mentioned two names, you veto and claim, oh, and Marvin Hagler both have ties to the mafia or if any of their people have any connections, it's that right, yeah, and they both fought a couple of fights they could have It's been interesting, could I ask you a couple more names, Emanuel Stewart?

Any connection? I know the name, but I don't know any connection to him, Mr. Duva Sr. Lou Duva, I understood that we would be with or around people from the Genovese family anyway. If we were going to get back into boxing, we could contact people in the Genovese family, probably contact his boss, which was Chin, and find out what he could do. to do, we never got to that point and mr. They had approached Don King that you mentioned earlier, but his response was negative. You have no other information about his connections. I know or many years ago, this was before John Gotti and I took over the family that Don King had contacted. because Paul Castellano and Paul Castellano didn't want to meet with him for some reason, so I knew he was around, I knew he had some ties and when we were considering Snipes and Damiani we wereconsidering a possible conversation with him for promotional reasons, obviously.

By reasons I mean he literally controls a good portion of boxing, which gives me the connection to Mr. Win or Mr. Trump would have to do it. Do you know there is no direct connection except that they had to do business with these guys who control most of the top fighters? They said it's true, as far as I know, they haven't done anything wrong and they're not with As far as I know, anyone is just in that business and would have to deal with people. We would have to communicate with the people they would have to deal with in order to talk to them.

Good idea. I think it is important to achieve it. Of course, Miss President, about some of these individuals with whom we do not want to tarnish people here, you said in your statement that in the case of the fight with Renaldo Snipes Damiani said: "I am sure that we would not have had any problem in convincing Snipes to lose well, why do you make that statement, sir? Gravano I myself was very close to Snipes. Nice was broke at that particular time. If we could have organized a big pay fight, I would have told him that. There was X amount of dollars in a bag.

I probably would have approached him with some cash on the table and Don King turned him down. and so many years and I think I had enough relationship with him to convince him in that sense and if he had agreed, I am sure he would have lived up to the end of his statement, you say now because the size of the wallets It has become so big in the last 20 years that organized crime is increasing. more interested in doing it again, do you have any specific details of that interest? Well, for a long time it wasn't even talked about and over the years it was talked about more and more with a little Dover and called that within the industry, it came up.

I wasn't really in the boxing industry, it was more of a hobby than me and I heard it on the outskirts, my background in the Gambino family was in construction and I dealt with that, but as people became more and older, John Gotti not only started looking at it, but I'm sure in the conversations I've had with people more and more. More people were watching him in these big fights to have the opportunity to see many friends and opponents. Yes, thank you, Mr. President, thank you, sir, okay, in lieu of coins, follow-up questions regarding mr. Snipes, you indicated that he was sure that if Snipes had given his word, he would have kept it, yes, right now, what deterrent do you have if they don't keep it?

Suppose he got in the ring, he felt pretty good and all of a sudden. Victory is a couple of punches away, does he take a look at the ring and decide he sees you there or maybe John Gotti or someone else and even though he smells victory and the other fighter may have unintentionally walked into a spinning punch, what deterrent? It exists either expressly or implicitly to ensure that someone complies with an agreement. I think all of our background is John Gotti's and mine, our reputation, yeah, right now, what deterrent do you have if they don't live up to it?

Suppose you got into the ring feeling pretty good and suddenly victory is a couple of strokes away, you take a look at the ring and decide that you see yourself there or maybe someone else's John Gotti and even though you smell victory and the other fighter may have inadvertently entered into a roundhouse punch. What deterrent exists, either expressly or implicitly, to ensure that someone honors an agreement. I think our whole background is John Gotti's and my background, our reputation for what we did and what happened. I think if he had knocked him out. by accident he would have picked it up.

I tried not to make it seem like it was a rhetorical question. Is it clear in the boxing industry as such or in the profession that if a boxer lets me say it this way, have you ever heard of it? a case of being threatened with injury because he was not willing to give organized crime a share of his profits. I've never heard that personally and I know it's talked about not only in boxing but in many industries and I don't think that really happens much, I think it's two-faced greed, organized crime, from what I've seen, has a history of sharing many contractors who are loosely related to the construction industry, they came to us for union favors and basically out of greed, because they made more money coming to us it was not something we had to force them to do and on top of this , I like when all those Snipes had great respect for him as a fighter and in a strange way, I think he would have done it. been fair about giving him his last hurrah and some money and would also have served my purpose with Damiani to look so good and beat some classy bodies as a fighter as I think Snipes was you mentioned that McGirt will never not know that. he is associated with organized crime, even indirectly he is right, yes it is very possible, is it well known that mr.

Soto is associated with organized crime, yes, so you can have a fighter who has someone who is a promoter managing advisor who is so known for associating with organized crime and you are basically being managed by that person and you still wouldn't know that any of your profits go through the money chain or the money tree as such to the roots of organized crime sure yeah tell me how that works apparently when McGirt went to the John Gotti trial yeah now when someone when someone goes to a trial of someone who is known to be an important person in the organized crime family, does that imply knowledge that it is about his profits or is it somehow going in that direction?

I mean, another, what you should know when it's a tactic of ours, senator. Sorry, you don't know, it's true, it's our tactic. I believe there was a member of Johnny de Giglio who was in the Genovese family who was on trial. You know, a federal trial. I think New Jersey where Muhammad Ali and some people came from. to the trial and what I think it does is that if you have black jurors and you see Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier, you have a warm spot for these people, which is basically, you know, I understand the tactic that I was wondering about. about the fighter himself Al Saud or someone says: we would like you to go to John Gotti's trial.

Well, I'm sure Al Sardo knows why. I don't really know if Buddy McGirt understands or knows why. III. say that because I'm not in those conversations I don't know what else I told him he tells him I could be scamming him and saying you know he thinks the world has a fighter why don't you put Santa down, I don't I know exactly Laura, no that's it fair. I'm just trying to figure out how the money flows. Maybe you could at least trace the money for us. What happens when a fighter wins the purse and then the manager gets promoted and gets a cut of the money?

How does money pass through the family? How do you track the money for us? If you did it, it would go through the trainer or the manager, the trainer, the manager, he has a percentage of the fighter, he would get a percentage of that of the There are some ways that when you receive your check and cash it you send your piece, whether whatever your deal is, maybe 20 30 40 50 percent, if you're a partner with John Gotti, whatever your specific deal is, you're going to send your share. of cash after taxes because obviously you can't get around it, but there are other ways we could cheat or get around, if you could take advantage of those times, we would set up a gym if we were talking about a lot of money and we could talk about padding. training expenses we could put people to work we can engage in promotional activities we can go to many areas to absorb part of that big purse, e

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ly when it comes to prices that reach tens of millions of dollars we can really be able to, I don't know words, but we could really throw it into that, what happens when a wrestler finds out that somehow his profits go to organized crime and he wants to break away from that family?

The family seeks to prevent that from happening. Traditionally, this situation has given us people a hard time. They like to stay away from us. Sorry, we're not too happy about me walking away and traditionally we would give I don't know to what extent that would depend on each person in each particular crime family what they were doing, once organized crime has an interest in a fighter, even though that fighter doesn't knows that he is his property or that he is at least influenced by organized crime he cannot walk away well I would not say that if his manager was with us he could not walk away if the fighter really did not know anything right I do not really know how we can go and follow him , except for that, he would lose his power base and connections and we were trying to cut him off more that way, if he himself shook my hand and made a deal with us, it would be much harder for him to walk away, so you could try.

If he didn't know that he was associated in some way, maybe he could try to lower his ratings or ratings, we would use any tactic we can use, except violence, because he really doesn't know what he is involved in if he knew in what he is he. involved we would use almost any tactic, including violence. Last year, the subcommittee had some testimony alleging that Bob Lee, who was on the New Jersey deputy boxing commission, had accepted a bribe to expedite an application for a boxing promoter's license, you know? of any other case where there is corruption among boxing commissions in New Jersey, New York or anywhere in this country, you talked about the WBC and operating in New Mexico and trying to influence the rankings there, what is going on here? in the U.S?

I don't know of any situation like I said and one last question: If you were still a member of the Gambino family, could you tell me or us what steps the federal real estate agencies would take to convince you that it was time to step away from participating in boxing matches, in In other words, is there anything the federal government could do to deter organized crime from its association with boxing? There the price is very small, you know, making the wallets small and therefore no amount of federal regulation per se is going to deter the influencers as long as the money is there, I don't think so, Senator, no, thank you, that That's all I have, mr.

President, thank you, thank you, so all the coins are here. Do you have another question? Yes, I have a few more to follow up on Mr. Cohen, has the State Commission been effective in regulating boxing as it relates to a mob? I don't even think we know they exist to be honest with you. They're not that effective because they don't bother us and they don't hinder us in any of our movements and I've never heard them involved in any of the conversations about we'd have to do this or this to get around them so I really don't, I don't even know what they are. .

Basically, no, if the federal government in one way or another got involved in regulation, would that make a difference to the mafia? Be more circumspect, more concerned about getting involved in boxing, it doesn't make any difference, no, you testified that Joey Curtis. I told him I could move up the rankings of his boxers in the WBC for five to ten thousand dollars. Joey Curtis has categorically denied to staff that anything like this ever happened to anyone like that. Are you sure of his testimony? Senator. I can only say what I know. No I can't really comment on what they say and what they don't say, I can only comment that what I say is the truth and I'm only saying exactly what I know and that was a Joey Curtis telling you he could move.

Increasing the ranking of your boxers in the WBC by five to ten thousand dollars is that correct. Yeah, remember Joey Curtis visiting the Ravenite social club? Yes, not now, sir. Curtis admits to visiting the social club but says it is open to any member of the public. That's right, no, it's a private club, it's Gambino's headquarters and if you want me to explain it a little, there is a stream with almost no windows and a steel door. At any given time, ten or fifteen guys standing outside smoking cigarettes and stuff and I really don't think that's a sign that we're open for business.

A lawyer for Renaldo Snipes is a former manager. SEL Pasquale II advised that they would invoke the Fifth Amendment. Called to testify admitted in an interview with staff that they attended a meeting with you in Atlantic City in which a future boxing match was discussed, but claimed that the meeting was arranged suddenly and it was not planned in advance, it is true, well, I don't think, senator, that you can prepare, you can walk into Donald Trump's boxing staff without prior notice and have a meeting in which he was going to fight for a fight of championship, it would have to be something that has been set up.

I didn't know Marquette was a hole in the wall before that and I don't see how you could do that and I'm sure the marketers who actually knew that and I don't think there was anything wrong know about the meeting. and you know it was created, I mean, I just didn't get off the street now, our other members of the Gambino family involved in boxing gyms, excuse me, senator, our other members of the Gambino family involved in boxing gyms,but what about John Gotti junior? There is a gym we are involved in at Tommy Galaga. He was a long-time friend of John Gotti.

I think he now has a gym in Queens and he's very close to John Jr. and I think his gym is right next to the fishing and bargain hunting club in Queens. I think he looked for funding and support and found it. My last question is that some people might wonder what difference it makes if it is organized. crime owns a piece of boxer, but isn't it true that organized crime, even when it is involved in a legitimate business, tries to cheat, takes advantage to take shortcuts, does it make any difference if the organized mafia owns a piece of boxer?

We have that habit of cheating a little bit and if we have it we use it as contacts not only in boxing but in many other areas that we look at, we look beyond strictly boxing when we meet, whether it's state officials or a person. like Trump, conversations might start drifting from boxing to construction or whatever we thought we could do if someone went to John and told him they wanted to buy a condo in Trump Tower and we were talking to them about boxing. I'm sure a week later or a month later the conversation would start to shift to buying that condo or doing the plastering on one of the buildings he's doing or plumbing or electrical law and this is what we've done in the past and a In many industries quite well, we moved away from boxing, but again, as it started to build in terms of money and power base, we would return to it for many different reasons because of the large amount of money that is now involved in boxing.

I hope for greater involvement by organized crime in boxing. I think they will go where the money is. Excuse me, they'll go where the money is. Yes, those are all the questions I have, Mr. President Mr. Cuban, one last question. I believe his statement or the answer to one of the first questions he mentioned that there was someone in Cleveland who had access to Don King. Could you tell us who he was and what type of access? Don't know. who was the specific person when I said I was referring to the Cleveland family, the Cleveland family has certain ties to Don King and Raymond Patriarca who is the boss.

In Providence he told us that he knew about this and that he can communicate with the people of Cleveland to tell them to have Duncan meet us. Any other questions also under McCain's Cohen's. Well, I think that's all. Bono we appreciate his cooperation with a subcommittee. We have been of great help. Thank you so much. We will have security to take mr. Bono out and I'll ask everyone to remain seated until that happens. Our next witnesses today will be Staff Attorney Layton Lord and Staff Attorney Steve Levin of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. They have carried out a very extensive investigation into professional boxing this afternoon.

You will provide us with more results from that investigation I will ask you both to raise your right hand before taking your seat Take the oath Swear the testimony you give before the subcommittee Oh-small truth The whole truth Nothing but the truth is, may God help you, thank you, Please, continue. Thank you, Senator, when the Senate last examined professional boxing more than 30 years ago, it found a nationwide conspiracy between organized crime and members of the boxing industry to control the main contrast of boxing in the United States. Boxing greats like Jake LaMotta testified that they were forced to cooperate with underworld figures for the chance to compete for championship titles.

The nature of organized crime involvement in boxing. The boxing industry has changed since the 1940s and 1950s, rather than trying to capitalize on an entire situation. Controlling boxing, as was the case thirty years ago, organized crime now attempts to profit by controlling individual boxers and managers or by exerting influence over an individual promoter. Today, members and associates of organized crime are also involved in boxing as managers, advisors and investors as the result that organized crime benefits from affects the sport of boxing. The main attraction for organized crime is, of course, the large sums of money that can be won, as Senator Roth stated, a boxer can win in one event what it took him a box or a lifetime to win.

Additionally, 30 years ago, the boxing industry was ideal for organized crime infiltration because it is ineffectively regulated. State boxing regulators make almost no effort to exclude members and associates of organized crime from participating in boxing, even when state regulations explicitly prohibit such participation. Under covert evidence that several organized crime figures are heavily involved with several well-known boxers, however, we do not claim that all or even most boxers are connected to organized crime. Law enforcement entities have conducted very little research in this area. Furthermore, we have found no evidence to indicate that organized crime currently exerts the type of influence over the sport of boxing that it did in the 1940s and 1950s.

We focus our research on three case studies involving connections to organized crime in two former and current world champions. Each of these boxers has denied being consciously controlled or influenced by organized crime. It is unclear whether these boxers are unwitting dupes or willing participants with organized crime figures. These three case studies illustrate three forms of organized crime involvement in boxing and also represent three examples of how the current regulatory structure has failed to keep organized crime out of the boxing industry when on the far right of the table we have the Named after former IBF super middleweight champion, Iran Berkeley Berkeley has held the WBC middleweight title and has had a number of high profile fights.

Barkley testified in a statement before the subcommittee that he does not currently have a registered manager but that he does have several unlicensed advisors. One of these advisors is Lenny Minute Minute and is classified by several law enforcement agencies as an associate of the Lucchese crime family. there is additional information that he is deceased and possibly current affiliations with the Gambino and Genovese families. Minute is believed to be active in the Lucchese family's gampa team at the moment. Minuto also has a criminal record that includes seven gambling convictions on a conviction for bribing a public official, and I would like to point out, Senator, before we continue, that by including anyone in this box with connections to organized crime, we have followed the previous psi standard of requiring cooperative information from at least two separate law enforcement agencies and in the case of mr. minute we also have an affidavit filed by mr.

Alphonse d'arco the current former deputy head of the Lucchese family indicating mr. minutes Lucchese Connections and at this time I would like to offer four introduction a copy of the affidavit of arc Berkeley testified in the deposition that Lenny minute helps him with contract negotiations and with personal investments according to Berkeley minute receives 10% of the profits of Barclays which would equate to approximately $100,000 for Barclays' most recent fight against James Toney. We also have other evidence, however, that indicates Minuto received up to two hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars for the Tony fight alone. The Barclays Minuto relationship is illustrative of how organized crime figures are involved.

In the boxing industry, both unpaid and paid and unlicensed advisors, the practice of calling oneself an advisor appears to be an attempt to avoid state licensing requirements even though so-called advisors often fit legal definitions. of managers. Most states have very broad definitions of a boxer. manager, for example, in New Jersey, a manager is defined as any person who directly or indirectly directs or manages the affairs of a boxer or any person who is entitled to 10% or more of a boxer's earnings, an obvious reason why What Lenny Minuto and others like him might want to avoid licensing is the fear that he will be denied a license and therefore barred from participating in boxing due to his criminal record for organized crime associations.

However, the fear is largely unfounded as state boxing regulators do not, as a rule, require criminal or background checks on license applicants, the box is depicted in the middle of the table, is WBA cruiserweight champion Bobby Chas. Chas has had a long career and his most profitable fights took place in recent years in 1981. Chaz's father sold the right to Chaz's future boxing. Earnings to Andrew Licari and Andrew Dombrowski under the lekar agreement in Dombrowski would receive a percentage of Cha's future earnings in exchange for $300,000. Initially, Licari and Dembrowski would receive 26% of Jezza's profits for five years and then 5% for an additional five years.

However, the agreement was modified twice so that Licari and Dembrowski could continue to receive 26% of boxing profits. Chaz testified at the subcommittee hearing in August that he voluntarily extended the boxing deal because Licari and Dombrowski had not recovered their investment. Which is oral apparently still valid today. Licari is classified by various law enforcement entities as a Lucchese soldier and is alleged to be part of what was the Lucchese family crew, he is also identified as such and the affidavit mentioned above is Former acting Lucchese boss Alphonse d 'arch Dombrowski, is classified as an associate of Lucchese in a subcommittee statement.

Licari denied his membership or involvement in organized crime. McCrory, however, acknowledged personal contact with alleged members of the tailoring team. Macari and Dombrowski are not licensed to participate in boxing State boxing regulations generally do not require that passive investors like Licari in Dombrowski be licensed to participate in boxing or that investments like the one Licari has in the exploration key be registered or reveal the boxer on the far left. on the chart is James McGirt's friend McGirt has held two world titles and recently paid a $1 million purse in his failed defense of his WBC title McGirt's relationship with organized crime exists on two levels the first level the team director of Al Sorrow's McGirt and Stuart Wiener is long considered a certified associate of the Genovese and Gambino crime families.

For my own purposes, when you put up a graph like that, you are not suggesting that any of the combatants involved know that he is involved in any way in the organization. crime, that's correct, senator, and we don't take any position on that because we have no evidence and with respect to the second line of people, you are not making accusations about any of the people involved there who are actively involved, yes. Senator, we have legal information from law enforcement at least two cooperating law enforcement agencies, because under our internal rules we require that they in fact have connections to organized crime, you say, and then we could continue.

Sorry, McGirt's involvement with organized crime. exists on two levels the first level is mcgirt's management team of al sorrow and stuart weiner law enforcement has long been considered an associate of the Genovese and Gambino crime families Weiner is an associate of the Gambino family and has been named recently in an indictment handed down by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office as a member of the Gambino family's Jojo Carazzo group. Certo and Weiner each receive at least 33 and one-third percent of McGirt's cash managers or boxing profits. Certo and Weiner share several managerial responsibilities, but only Certo is licensed as a manager at this time, Weiner has not been licensed to participate in boxing since 1991, when he was licensed as a second in Nevada, although Weiner has avoided licensing, their relationship with McGirt it's not a secret.

Both McGirt and Certo in subcommittee statements acknowledged that Weiner serves as a co-manager of McGuirk; furthermore, Weiner also received payments owed to McGirt directly from a Gertz promoter, Madison Square Garden. Weiner also has the authority to write checks on the account of Alfred Sorties Mo Inc, the company that receives all of McGirt's boxing profits. Weiner is clearly acting as an unlicensed co-director in violation of several different state regulations. The second level of McGirt's involvement with organized crime is the secret ownership by Gambino soldier Joseph Jojo Carazzo of some percentage of McGirt's profits. The property of McGirt by Fierce was first revealed to the subcommittee by Salvatore Gravano, who just testified on the subcommittee's statements on relations between Pig and McGirt, revealed that Weiner isa personal friend of Carazzo and that both Surdo and McGirt were introduced to Carazzo by Weiner Sir TOA McGirt.

Both testified under oath that, to the best of their knowledge, Carazzo does not have an ownership interest in Mcgirt's boxing profits Jojo Carazzo invoked the Fifth Amendment in answers all questions during his subcommittee deposition subcommittee staff with assistance of the Government Accounting Office conducted an exhaustive analysis of the financial records of Alfred Fortissimo Inc, the company controlled by Surdo and Weiner that contains all of McGirt's profits. Although we found no direct evidence of payments made to Carazzo, we did find a pattern of highly questionable payment practices. The display to my right represents the flow of funds related to the November 29, 1991 fight against Simon Brown.

This exhibit illustrates how all of McGirt's money goes directly to Alfred Fortissimo Inc. In this case, McGirt's promoter, Madison Square Garden, wrote checks directly to Alfred Tootie Simone, ink from the McGirt Spurs' earnings and training expenses . We also have evidence that Madison Square Garden paid Wiener forty thousand dollars of the money. I owed McGirt cash, but I have not been able to determine if this money was deposited or how it was spent and I would like to point out that we listed a check number there because we initially thought it was paid by check because we received a check showing the payment of $40,000 and we have since discovered that the check was voided and never negotiated in the transaction that was actually made in cash, although Nevada has a regulation that requires a boxer to be paid directly.

McGirt requested that the Nevada Commission waive this. regulation for Alfred City Samoa Inc to be paid directly as such regulations are intended to decrease the likelihood of a cashier being deceived by its management this arrangement is questionable and circumvents the state the intent of the state regulations an employer and a questionable practice involves so-called third-party endorser transactions, the evidence we are now presenting illustrates this practice, as the evidence indicates that Stewart Wiener wrote a check for $3,000 to himself and I am referring to the top check, since the back of the check indicates which one it is just below, he endorsed the check with his name and then wrote the third party endorsement from Alfred sati Samoa Inc, although it appears that the check was redeposited into Alfred Tootie, an account with some ink, the corresponding bank statement does not include a dollar specific of three thousand. deposit surdo testified to his position that such checks are sometimes converted into cash.

Our analysis of Alfred sati simoleons checks, bank statements, and tax records indicates that virtually all third-party endorser checks appear to be converted to cash, more than 10% of all checks issued at fortissimo outlets. Inc accounts were handled in this matter over a period of three years. A second questionable pattern involves the practice of issuing two separate checks to the same payee on the same day. This practice is illustrated with the same test we have so far, as you can see. Stuart Wiener wrote two checks to himself dated March 31, 1990, check number 12 89, which is at the top, is for $3,000, check 1290, one at the bottom is for two thousand one hundred and seventy dollars, the The three-thousand-dollar check was endorsed by a third party, which led us to suspect that it was converted into cash on the two-thousand-one-hundred-and-seventy-dollar check that appears to have been deposited into another account on eight separate occasions, Weiner issued two checks to himself. separated by significant amounts of money on the same day, one day, Weiner issued three separate checks to himself.

While this evidence is not conclusive proof of wrongdoing, it clearly provides a ready method for diverting large sums of money in the form of cash into conclusion, how does writing the second divert a lot of money in that case if you write a check in your name and cash it and there is a bank record of it? What is that detour like? money, well, senator at the bottom, we tip, we assume you could have deposited it in an account, although if it's your bank, you could have cashed it, we have no idea. I'm saying the top check, which is from a third party.

The endorser's check was likely converted to cash because in our analysis of all deposits made at Alfred a Samoa Inc compared to its income reflected in its tax records, the loans show that these checks could not have been redeposited or would not have been balanced and Gao helped us reach the conclusion of that analysis, but that would not apply to the second verification, although we have no idea why we did not, we did not quote mr. Weiner's bank records we have no idea that this is the case in conclusion we have no reason to believe that under the current regulatory structure anything will change the current regulatory structure has had more than 30 years to rid boxing of the influence and involvement of organized crime and it is not That done, we agree with the opinion of former organized crime member Michael Franzese and former FBI agent Joseph Spinelli that the most effective way to rid boxing of organized crime is federal oversight of the industry.

The senator at this time I would like to have I have a list of 40 sealed and some unsealed exhibits, mostly unsealed, which I will request to be admitted to the record at this time without objection, they will be a little brighter, thank you and we will be delighted to answer any question. The first question I would ask. What I'm asking is that despite the testimony we had last fall that the best way to rid organized crime of its involvement in boxing is to have strong federal oversight, we just had someone who was actively involved in organized crime and the boxing profession, indicated that It will make very little difference as long as the money is there.

Well, sir, do you have any answers? I think, based on people we've talked to on our staff, you would disagree that the federal government did a very good job of capturing Mr. . Cuban, so I think the federal government has done a good job prosecuting and investigating organized crime and I think they would if they had done it under federal supervision of boxing. Well, maybe you can tell us a little more about the feature. of state licensing boards and their relationship with boxing participants and advisors, licensed advisors and unlicensed advisors, as well as with respect to unlicensed and unlicensed advisors, there is no relationship between them and the regulatory agencies because they totally bypass the licensing process, they don't have a license, they don't do it.

We do not file license applications and, as far as we know, boxing commissions do not pursue them, try to force them to obtain a license, or try to exclude them from boxing if they are in fact participating in the sport. within the scope of state regulation yes, senator, in many cases they do. I think the examples in our box. Lenny minute is one if he does in fact receive 10% of Iran Barclays Boxing's profits then. He is a manager under the New Jersey definition of a manager, anyone who receives 10% or more of a boxer's earnings, and would therefore have to be licensed as a manager in that state.

Other states have very broad definitions of a manager, anyone who helps lead. the boxer's career certainly according to the statement of mr. Barkley is helping direct his career, he would have to be licensed as a manager in that capacity and we should also have a uniform definition of what constitutes an advisor, yes, senator or what constitutes a manager to cover all of these advisors, okay? ? Levin, I believe the staff statement indicates as evidence that mr. Linney minute may have received up to $225,000 in connection with mr. The last Barclays fight, do you explain the evidence and how you arrived at that figure?

No doubt, Senator, the fight he was referring to was the Iran Barclays James Toney IBF Super Middleweight Championship fight. In his statement, I submitted that Barclays said it was going to pay mr. minute $100,000 from that fight, plus Bob Arum, who was the promoter of that fight, told us that in order for Barclays to accept that fight, he had to accept a side deal in which arm would pay minute $125,000, thus obtaining the smallest total profit . From that fight to $225,000, is there any evidence that mr. Barclays himself knew about this. We have no evidence that mr. Barclays knew about the well.

Let me back up on the statement of mr. Barclays was held hostage before the fight, so speaking of the hundred thousand dollars, he was saying that, for perspective, that was what he was going to pay with respect to this side deal between mr. minute and and mr. harem yes mr. irons said that mr. Barclays was involved in the negotiations and was therefore presumably aware of that side deal. Also okay, are there any background checks currently performed for those applying for a license to participate in boxing? No, if you want, if you submit an application to obtain a license, you have to fill out a form if we ask certain questions but, as far as we know, no one checks the answers, no one checks if the individual has a criminal record or has any involvement in the crime organized, who is young, who should be in the background check business, your suggestions. suggesting that commissions do that job probably not.

I think law enforcement would probably be the best person to do it, much like the way the Senate does background checks on people who are being appointed to positions they might just call local law enforcement. or federal law enforcement and ask if the individual has a criminal history or known associations, something like that and the main reason why the current state regulatory systems are not effective is what well, I think one of the main reasons why I mean While many states have very good regulations on the books, the problem is that they simply do not enforce those regulations.

The unlicensed counselor example is a good one because many states have regulations that require these people to be licensed, they just don't enforce those regulations. The second problem. It's an inconsistency, as you just mentioned, there is a Matt, there is a definition of a manager in each different state, so you can be a manager in one state but not the next and it's very confusing, could you explain in a little more detail? Detail what methodology you use to analyze the financial practices of Alford searches.