Wieambilla police shootings: The horror ambush that shook Australia | Under Investigation

two young lives now measured in minutes an enemy Australia has never faced before the crime that has left us wondering who we have become when we enter the Ambush there is a reason a crack in a bullet as it moves as it passes over your head they came to kill us in the minds of the killers and we killed them he believed that governments were trying to control people's minds and those they targeted you wearing the blue uniform doesn't make you superhuman tonight our Frontline experts join us us for a special

investigation

holding extremist beliefs is not in itself a crime how they predict when these thoughts turn into actions how ordinary people become cold-blooded killers.

I think this hits across the board in Australia when it comes to someone you know in this world of deepening conspiracies. Are we facing a new threat? A direct threat to social cohesion in Australian communities. Good night. I'm Liz Hayes and this is under

investigation

and a warning some might find. Tonight's episode takes place on a peaceful summer afternoon in central Queensland. Smith is just two weeks away. on the way to a routine welfare check, our Police Officers Matthew Arnold and Rachel McCrow in an hour will be at peace in the Queensland Bush with Civic evidence at the end of the day, as will others joining me with Ann To analyze one of the deadliest

shootings

against

police

officers lives Dr.

John Coyne, a veteran intelligence officer who has worked in the military and law enforcement. Look at images like this that look more like somewhere where there has been heavy contact between military forces. Decorated former New South Wales detective Gary Jubilin, who ran the crime scene at Sydney's terrifying fluff Cafe Siege, no one knew exactly what they were getting into, it could have been 10 people there, you just don't know what it is an active shooter situation, renowned clinical psychologist Tamara Cabinet, who specializes in trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder, if so. We're in Hatefield and there are more and more conspiracy theories in the mix, if you believe one you'll probably believe another and Matt Condon, the award-winning author and crime journalist who knows the back blocks of Queensland where our investigation takes us tonight.

This is the end. from the

police

, this is as bad as it gets when two of you are murdered in Cold Blood Foreign after Matthew Arnold and Rachel McCrow that afternoon, there are two other young police officers, Keely Bruff and Randall Kirk, you've been told it's a social assistance check for a missing person. person, police had completed a routine risk assessment before traveling to the property, the destination, a remote house near William Biller, four hours west of Brisbane, inside the house, Gareth trained his wife Stacy and his brother Nathaniel. Stacy and Nathaniel had been teachers, a profession that wouldn't have raised any serious red flags—even Gareth, though he lived off the grid, had briefly been a community child support officer—but on that December day they were preparing an apocalypse. private, the four agents have no idea what awaits them, John, based on your knowledge and what we know about this at this time.

It was a routine event, I think it was on a regular day throughout Australia. Law enforcement officers call our police into our communities to check on welfare and execute warrants. Etc. In this case, they were targeting someone who didn't have a substantial criminal record that it might appear to be. If you look at it closely, they are teachers in the area of ​​education, even if you dig a little deeper, you would assume that they have gone through checks working with vulnerable people, so there are a lot of things here that would turn around and say that.

This was a low risk activity. You know, they were doing what Australian police officers do really well, which is serving in the community by checking on someone's welfare as a police officer in an environment like that. I would have felt comfortable sending them to the police. Officers in those circumstances, based on the information I know they had at their disposal, it's a pretty simple job, but they wouldn't have had an idea of ​​the threat that was around the corner, what I would have told you when I arrived, this It's not normal, well the door was closed, but it's a police encounter in a rural area that in uh, you know rural areas all the time and that had a warning sign and the warning sign and, yeah, again, That's not unusual, you go in their private. property, stay away, but you are the police that are going to go in there to do the investigation and they would have gone in there with that attitude, let's find out what's there.

It was 4:30 in the afternoon when the four officers were all under the age of 30 approached the property to put this in context, going to a property in William Biller is not like an officer knocking on a door in Balmain or the dandenongs or Spring Hill in Brisbane for a welfare check. You have to understand this region, it is different. from the rest of Australia due to its remoteness, it became areas where cannabis was grown and produced and certainly in the late 80s methamphetamine was seen there as well. This is not the usual police environment led by Constable Matthew Arnold and Constable Rachel McCrowe, the group.

Walking down the driveway, CCTV cameras placed along the route are believed to have alerted trains to their visitors as police advance. Gareth and his brother Nathaniel lie heavy, camouflaged and positioned with a purpose in mind, at no point I don't imagine they would have been anticipating what they were about to face without warning a flurry of gunfire suddenly all hell breaks loose the fire from the rifle the shots will sound which would have been so loud time would have stopped for them when that noise was heard at the place so it would have been a terrifying situation for us there is a whirring and crackling sound in a bullet when it moves a whirring sound as it moves towards you the crunch when it passes over the top of your head they would have felt afraid because that is what people have to understand that wearing the blue uniform does not make you superhuman and we know that in those moments your attention is reduced, we know that time It slows down, we know anxiety skyrockets, they still have all the humans. response the rest of us would have there's nothing that really protects you from a human response Rachel Mcrow you're dead you become a little disgruntled and experienced as a detective as much as I am if there's a shootout with a hardcore criminal, a gangster or whatever you accept that's part and parcel this was just an

ambush

the other two officers try to take cover in the barn Randall Kirk is shot while running back to his police vehicle under mortal threat he has no choice but to try to escape incredibly given the circumstances despite After receiving direct fire on his vehicle, he desperately escapes trying to raise the alarm, but still on the Train's property.

Keely Bruff, who has only been a police officer for eight weeks, faces his own hill, a police officer trying to avoid being shot and hiding. moving moving moving there what a terrifying experience I don't know if you are going to make it that foreign day she is now being chased by the train Brothers who set fire to drive her out my heart stops if I am that young girl my heart stops she is in the grass and That's what I mean, what are you thinking? You have fear and adrenaline rushing, most people would never experience that level of fear and adrenaline.

She has no idea where her companions are in the smoke and she managed to stay. calm enough to text and communicate, she could have gotten up and panicked, but all credit to her. I mean, in my opinion, she is an example of spontaneous courage and I think there are a number of examples in this incident that just rose to meet each other. In the circumstances where you're texting goodbye and asking for help, but you're also texting your family, we know that when people are on extreme adrenaline and in these types of situations where they firmly believe that you're not going to make it , it is very likely that she did not anticipate leaving and her first thoughts are for her family, which is very common, she has not given up, but she thinks her time is up, look, she is young, she is isolated, she is alone, She finds herself in a circumstance where her call for help, she would know what it is. a considerable amount of time away and she would also know that they haven't attended, knowing there would be some risk, so I think combinations of that probably think they won't make it by hiding in the grass, it's not cover, it's just concealment, so yeah , if they saw her, she knows they are chasing her, yes, it's like a

horror

movie, isn't it?

She really comes close. I don't know what they're up against Keely Bruff ticks for help. They knew there were reports of multiple. shots, but they didn't know where they were going, it caused a deadly confrontation, there was an absolute intention to murder people and as civilians, go oh my God, that's the next thing under investigation tonight, we'll walk into the

ambush

that Prime has done. We stop and ask who we have become and where we are going. Three ordinary Australians have turned to terrorism and are apparently determined to end this December day last year in a long and bloody battle.

Constable Keely Bruff, just eight weeks into her job, is being chased by Gareth and Nathaniel by train who lights a fire to get her out. Two of her fellow officers have already been murdered. She is texting vital information to the police. and saying goodbye to his family a police officer trying to avoid being shot and hiding moving moving moving what a terrifying experience not knowing if you're going to make it that day officer Randall Kirk, Keely's partner, was shot in the leg but escaped by little and is also raising the alarm, but soon there will be one more victim who will notice the smoke and fire two neighbors also come running one of them Alan dare is shot the help he was also serving the community he thought there was trouble there and came to help him lost his life the word of this surprising

horror

is insulin the police know they are facing a war, but they are not sure of the enemy and how many there are, it is a complex thing to have to respond to people trying to find out exactly what happened.

We have the young police hiding the fire, worried about burning to death, thinking that they are going to be burned alive or shot to death by these people who pass information, so you get that information, then the people have to gather the resources and you have to a neighbor down, you have the neighbor hurt, no one knew exactly what they were running into, it could have been 10 people there, you just don't know it's an active shooter situation, but who the killers are. Gareth Nathaniel and Stacy Train are a baffling and deeply disturbing trio, not just because of who they are on this damn day, but who they were Nathaniel Train was a former school principal and Stacy Train was a former school teacher, well, if you were watching a risk assessment, part of it would be what career they have, their teachers have been teaching in primary schools.

Well, that changes the threat level of his teachers a little bit, so we leave him in a room with children and they are responsible for educating the children. Nathaniel and Stacy were apparently popular with their students, but they were also anti-vaxxers and left. their jobs in part because of their beliefs, the part about school teachers is one part that surprises the other parts is that people want to make bad guys look bad, you know, we want them to do it in police terminology, you know, we want them to the larvae do it. look like larvae you meet in an intriguing love triangle Stacy married Nathaniel but divorced him to marry his brother Gareth and live on their remote Queensland property, but when covert lockdowns occurred, Nathaniel illegally crossed the border and moved in with All three of them were followers of an extreme conspiracy.

Theories, you have three people acting that way, that seems interesting to me from a police point of view, since we will find a person who is an extremist and maybe a history of violence, but you have three people who for all intents and purposes. On the surface, it seems like they've been going about their business relatively normally and have come together with this single goal. Most people would say they have a mental illness. Yeah, look, you definitely don't want to equate violence with mental violence. illness there is no research that strongly supports a link there and in fact people with mental illness are largely no more likely to be violent than anyone else so I think we want to think that people who would do things like These are mental illnesses because that makes us feel like there is an explanation, but in fact you know that theGroup mentality is actually the part that doesn't surprise me: we can push people to think that certain things in group situations are too risky for that, it's like a cult very similar to a cult.

Similar behaviors that police later discovered delved deep into the dark online world of conspiracies. Gareth Stacy and Nathaniel Train had become fans. Believers in an apocalyptic form of Christianity, they saw the police as demons and the covert pandemic as one of the signs that the world was ending. the beginning of sorrows, when there will be many lamentations, the beginning of famine, when many will perish, the beginning of wars. I think the terrible irony of this is that with the trains that actually brought him to the end of his days and fulfilled his own prophecy, it is now. around 5:15 p.m. m. on the property of billiard William del Tren, the arrival of the first police rescuers allows Keely Bruff to escape; then at 7:39 p.m. m., Gareth and Stacey Trane post a creepy and disturbing video on YouTube: They came to kill us and we killed them.

They are in the dark you can barely see their faces they don't seem frantic cam Wilson from craigie.com.eduse joins our investigation a few hours after his attack on the police, he began tracing the digital trail of the Train if you don't defend yourself against these hell you are a coward, they are sending a message to another type of international Christian conspiracy theorist, their conspiracy contact is supposedly this man, an American known as Don, it is their last message as a way of saying we did the right thing, you know, they acted against the police, the demons that had come to their property and were saying their last goodbye see you when we get home see you at home Don I love you at 9:00 p.m. m. arrives the elite queensland police special emergency response team known as cert.

I think they did an extraordinary job, this special response team has happened that everyone has to have Marshal be organized, have a strategy, he can't just go in there with guns, how are we going to eliminate the threat more efficiently in this situation ? Around 9:30 p.m. m., the certification team breaks into the property and moves in the In the dark, a Bearcat armored rescue vehicle, taking the Bearcat or the army vehicle closer to the property where they could talk to them is certainly a tactic that would have been used. Peter Dean is a former commander of counterterrorism and special tactics operations like the one he set up. against the trains would have been, I'm sure, an attempt to negotiate and they probably would have expected that that was going to fail, but the bottom line is that they would have tried because there is always the possibility that there could be a peaceful solution.

Negotiation police have not released details on whether the certification team attempted to negotiate with the trains. Is there anything you would have told him so he saw that the trains were ready for negotiation? So based on the information I've seen, you know? I don't see any indication that they had actually undertaken a negotiation, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have, but given the level of threat and the way they had organized things, it is more suggestive that they were preparing for something. that they saw as inevitable Guided by police helicopters the certification team approaches tonight the trains illuminate an intense hunting line they would be thinking this is the moment yes so it has arrived this is this is the day much so this is everything we have I've been talking about this is exactly what we were hoping for, you know, let's act and very much a dehumanization of the people on the other side so that because they are the enemy, they are the enemy, so through of time you slowly dehumanize the other side so that they are not really people, the trains that believe the world is ending seem not to hesitate to play their role in that apocalyptic scenario.

At this point it appears that they are armed with three weapons, a 3006, which is a high-powered military cartridge. I would also use the hunting cartridge a 22 caliber firearm that is small caliber but has limited penetration a 12 gauge shotgun plus two nine thousand pistols removed from the offices the third team is ready for a battle that they intend to win they don't know what they were facing, they didn't have a clear idea of ​​that exactly, they knew there were reports of multiple shots fired, but they didn't know where they were going around 10 p.m. m., the assault begins, you know, this was a shootout, come on.

Be really very clear with these shots that the active shooters were shooting up until the very moment they died. Reportedly Train Gareth is the first to die, then Train Nathaniel Stacy was shot dead while shooting at police. Warzone, the police armored vehicle, evidence of Train's fanatical ferocity, I mean, it still gives you chills looking at that vehicle with pockmarks on the head-up display. I mean, there was an absolute intent to murder the people in that vehicle, the evidence is there and as civilians you go, oh my God! God, look, I'm with Matt on this one, it was intense, you know, like murderous intent, there were over six people dead and the nation was left reeling, the police were devastated because a civilian and two of their young officers had been killed. , they've treated police officers, I mean, they're experiencing Trump, they're trained but they're traumatized, yeah, so I think you know we can, like civilian navigation, this is a job that you signed up for, this is part of this. but the real reality is that's not why they signed up, they signed up to protect people, to help them, and at the end of the day, they witness things that most of us can never imagine: they come out with converted teeth that Australia's wars applied to them and turned them into terrorists.

What we do know is that someone who believes in one conspiracy theory will believe in another which will be the next under investigation on Tuesday December 13 last year Australia woke up to the news of a horrible ambush, the scene is quite unimaginable, they are distressing the bullet holes in all the signs in the house. the intensity of the shooting this was a moment when the psyche of the nation was absolutely traumatized no matter where you were in Australia you heard about it you connected with it and you felt it was very close to home you know they were young people it was very shocking that two young police officers killed those officers they had no chance another two narrowly escaped in terrifying circumstances to think they survived the scene they were left alone they then went out to make phone calls and ask for help was simply extraordinary and a Queensland Police will describe it as a religiously motivated terrorist attack.

Members of the train family subscribed to what we will call a broad Christian fundamentalist belief system known as premillennialism. It was the belief that Christ will return to Earth for a thousand days and bring peace and prosperity, but will be preceded by a period of widespread tribulation, destruction and suffering probably 24 to 48 hours after the event. I started thinking, well, this isn't terrorism, it's just a terrible, horrific act of violence. by three people for some unknown reason Peter Dean is a former counter-terrorism specialist with the New South Wales Police. Much research has been done since then and he now tells me that the word terror is clearly more associated with what happened in most people's minds.

It is a terrorist event. The focus of that investigation and our investigation tonight is how former school teachers became ruthless killers. I think this affects all spheres of Australia. This is someone who you know anyone is capable of doing. You would never choose these people. Nathaniel trained a former headmaster, his brother Gareth had briefly been a community child support officer and Stacy married first Nathaniel and then Gareth, also a former schoolteacher. I think we like to think it's someone uneducated or you know a particular guy and this really hit our fear centers this could be anyone a banquet the Beast the voice of of course the main course is your choice of roast false religion or idolatrous ideology accompanied by lashings of Lies sometimes you don't have to do less this is Gareth training a month before the murders in multiple videos and online posts there is evidence of the Train's descent into the world of conspiracy raised in conservative Christian churches.

Gareth Stacy and Nathaniel became more obsessive during the covert closures, but Gareth in particular had gone a few years. Going deep into the dark online world, the demonic and spiritless suit of the world, we know that Gareth Train had been involved in online conspiratorial communities dating back almost two decades immediately after the ambush. Crikey.com.edu's Cam Wilson traced Gareth Train's digital trail and the deteriorating mind of a killer said he was inspired by the Port Arthur massacre all the dead and wounded were shot during a ruthless gunfight by a lone gunman he believed not It was a real event, he believed it was a false flag and that it was used to take away the Australians' weapons.

Our online investigation of the trains reveals that during the covert lockdown they were extreme anti-vaxxers attracted to a wide variety of conspiracy theories. What we do know is that someone believes one conspiracy theory believes another, so if you add a hate camp and more and more conspiracy theories to the mix, if you believe one, you'll probably believe another, the train apparently had a wide range of conspiratorial beliefs, held anti-vaccine views and believed they were covered. an attempt by the government to control the population, they also had this sovereign citizen ideology, you know, they didn't believe that the laws of Australia applied to them, it's a phenomenon that has developed on Australian streets with often confrontational anti-authority protests that have been shooting. again absolutely covid and the uncertainty that everyone was feeling at that time starts to make you feel so anxious and insecure that you look for some kind of certainty to put things in order we don't have freedom of speech nothing we see on Facebook is deleted and you know that We often warned people at the time that conspiracy theories were likely to become more entrenched.

Awesome, I could understand that someone who is a little paranoid or whatever, now this is Big Brother taking over the police. They are telling us to stay at home under curfews. I never thought I'd see that day where it involves a curfew, that kind of thing if someone is floundering, you know, having that dislike or distrust of the Authority, the police represented that, so, that Authority. that we had as police officers has diminished, I think because of the way the police were deployed for undercover activities. I think Gary is absolutely right and not just the police, it was also the unprecedented scenario where the government and various governments in Australia were telling their citizens how to live this is when you can move and not move, this is what you have to do and that's an unusual scenario, incredibly unusual, but the vast majority of Australians accepted it for what I would call the community good, as the government recently said.

I say if I don't get vaccinated I lose my teaching job, a small percentage who are already paranoid about the government's excess power, this was almost the perfect storm, this was tangible evidence that my theories are correct, the government has gone too far, they are trying. to control my life and take away my freedom approved by the Queensland police leads them to the conclusion that trains hold apocalyptic beliefs contemplate famines and plagues, tribulations and distress that are sent as gouges for the correction of men with covert as one of the signs that the world was ending that finally pushed them to become terrorists.

All of that analysis has provided us with significant information and understanding about what drove the motivation of the family members trained that day and our evaluation has concluded that Nathaniel Gareth and Stacy Train acted as an autonomous cell and carried out a religiously motivated terrorist attack, But is this just the beginning of a new threat to national security? They came to kill us. Veteran intelligence officer Dr. John Coyne believes it is a threat to national security. I believe that right-wing extremism conspiracy theories and sovereign citizens pose a direct threat. threatens social cohesion in Australian communities and continues to do so, do you think this incident is a portal to another mindset?

How do we address it? We don't have a clear predictor of who will and who won't. With the internal enemy, how do we guard? As? You predict when these thoughts will turn into actions next under overseas research. The shocking terrorist attack by Gareth Nathaniel and Stacy Trane on December 12 last year represents anew and deadly threat to Australia's security according to our experts. I think it is a threat to national security. I believe right-wing extremism and sovereign citizen conspiracy theories pose a direct threat to social cohesion in communities across Australia and continue to do so. Listen to my words.

Oh My People, prepare for battle and in the midst of calamities be like strangers on earth, contemplate God. he is the judge, but to the outside world the trains did not seem out of the ordinary, so what to do when the enemy lives in plain sight, how do we keep a good eye on him. I think what it does is present a problem that when we look at people that if that's their ideology, where does that become a real threat? How can you predict when these thoughts become actions? And from a law enforcement standpoint, that's a difficult part.

I think that's key and this is a discussion. I have had it very often in political circles you are not the thought police we cannot be in every young person's bedroom we cannot be in everyone's living room we cannot access every phone or computer that is available you know my argument, Censorship and legislation, regulation and surveillance of thought is not the direction we want to take. Terror carried out by trains is as difficult to predict as acts of Islamic terrorism by so-called lone actors, as we saw during the Sydney Lint Café siege. it is the lone actor who gets involved in that is a big concern for the land actor Because by the nature of the lone actor they are not doing anything in conjunction with another person Peter Dean former Deputy Commissioner of the New South Wales Police in charge of the counter terrorism thinks it's online where people like trains and people feed and rot.

Yes, the tragic events in Queensland involve three people, but we are continually worried in this country and I know in North America and the UK and New Zealand about the loner. actor because they are the people who can end up committing something and anyone knows that we are going to do it. What does it take to go from having alternative thinking to violence? What is the step? So I think the real answer is no. I don't know, we don't have a clear predictor of who will do it and who won't. You can look at individuals and you can look to see a history of violence and that will predict a future, you just know violence, so on an individual level you can certainly see things, but we know that simply believing in any set of beliefs or any set of ideologies is not a predictor.

Not at all, the police are appealing for public assistance in The Kite. I'm gone. Train Nathaniel had illegally entered Queensland during an undercover act and had attracted police attention for ramming a border gate and dumping two unregistered weapons, but none of that, according to Queensland Police, was enough. to change the way the officers approached the property, this is a guy who had been a high school principal, had no criminal record other than I think he had a traffic violation, even earlier than many years ago, for which there was nothing to indicate to the members. who would have attended that day when they were going to be ambushed.

Could you propose this if we were presented with all the evidence we now know about trains and this incident had not happened? How would we approach it? We have experience. here, how would you handle it? Okay, well he's angry about this, how do you mitigate the potential? Because you know you're going, you know yourself, you know he's done it, and in your experience, if that day hadn't happened, there's nothing to watch out for, that's exactly what it is. I mean, there's always been the problem, hasn't there? You have to wait for something bad to happen. Look, try to predict and we have psychologists here so I can't predict, we can't predict, so there are flags, there are indicators, but there is no certainty about it and that is a trick from a law enforcement point of view.

At what point does it intervene? We tested how easy it is to be drawn into what is called the echo chamber of online conspiracy. We asked a new user to search for anti alternatives. -authority videos on the social media site tick, the app's algorithm observes that the activity began to recommend similar videos that talk about demons that the disruptor called institutions to save evil, that there is a secret government that would cause the collapse of society and who warns that the apocalypse is approaching is God. Speaking to us in less than an hour, our users' feed was full of extreme conspiracy theories that the Australian military is training to turn on its own citizens.

Basically, in an alarmingly short time, we had created the echo chamber if you're ready for Jesus' return. like and comment below come where jesus is coming like follow subscribe for more on the home front you have someone in your family you can tell there is conspiracy and they are potentially spiraling how do you handle that? You know if you have a family member, the most important thing I would say is don't confront them head on. I think if you really talk about conspiracy theories with someone who's really down that rabbit hole and believes it, if you hit them head on, you're automatically classified as America vs. them and you're in their category, so I encourage people to have open conversations, try not to attack it head on and just try to present more open information, but other than that, keep them away from being socially isolated. a little stronger, the trans didn't want to be with others.

No, I think this incident is a portal for all of us to have a different mindset and I think to honor those two murdered officers and the neighbor, we would be remiss not to take it seriously and investigate it. and hopefully potentially mitigate future police officers emerging Matthew Arnold, the nation mourns these two young officers at the beginning of their careers, full of excitement for their future. Unlimited and the police are looking for answers. I was a couple of human beings who went out to do the right thing and ended up dead, that's what follows in research commissioner Katarina Carroll APM in space agents Matthew Arnold there are moments in time that often make us feel joy and celebration, but also in shock, pain and disbelief, that's how it was with the cold-blooded.

Ambush and murder of Officer Matthew Arnold and Officer Rachel Mcrow and Alan Dare, who died simply for being a good neighbor, oh friend, you're right, you're right, the ordeals of young officers Keely Bruff and Randall Kirk on the morning of month of December. 13 last year we will win after the tragedy we reflect on what we have lost and what we have learned or we recognize the work of all those who attended the scene these two young officers at the beginning of their career full of enthusiasm their Future Limitless and simply the I see them walking down this brown dirt road towards their own deaths.

I was with family the day after it actually happened in the beautiful coastal town of Kiama, south of Sydney. I was with my kids and there in the front yard. From the small local police station there was an officer who was raising the flag at half-mast. He was incredibly moving and this would have been replicated across the country and was a microcosmic example of tragedy and the ripple effect of that tragedy. It was incredibly heartbreaking to see that we abroad have considered the terrible events that the nation witnessed on that terrible day. The tragic loss of life in the name of extreme religious beliefs fueled by online hate leaves police specialists in Australia with a new dilemma: what to do?

We monitor how we predict when these thoughts become actions and have investigated this new threat from an enemy within a direct threat to social cohesion in Australian communities. How difficult it is to predict and prevent. They are the people who can end up committing. something where anyone knows they're going to do it in a world where seemingly ordinary people people want bad guys to look bad we want larvae to look like larvae are choosing to be terrorists I think this affects all Australian spheres in This is someone you know well. This moment happened. This terrible event occurred and stopped us.

What do you think we should take away from this? I think we should appreciate frontline policing and I don't want to just talk. about the police because this affects all of society, but I think we need to have an appreciation that this is what frontline policing is all about and I sit here and we're looking at the photos of the young police officers, two people lost their lives and I I think if the community can appreciate this and this is the police officer, then I say don't just look at them as a uniform, there were a couple of human beings that went out to, yeah, do the right thing and they ended up dead and I.

I think we could all learn to just be Watchers if there are little indicators, nothing for sure, but the more information we have the better, so if you have someone who is acting a little strange or has said something a little worrying, maybe pass that information on to them . to someone in authority Tamara psychologically, from your perspective, how do we deal with this? I think, from my point of view, it's the investment in the research and the psychology behind what we can do and how we can do it, and making sure that the decisions that we make.

What we are doing is based on research of what we know works, a lot of this will come down to prevention, which means things that we will never know if the result really worked and one of the things we invest the least in. It's always for prevention John, I think we should be very proud as Australians of all the incredible things that the incredible Australians did that day, the neighbor who went to lend a hand, the four police officers who showed up doing their duty to serve. . their community, whether it's a young officer being chased while there are fires, whether it's the certified guys and the tactical guys who come to do their job, you know, it's a fantastic story in that sense, because of the tragedy of some Australians really large, denies capacity. of those who want to damage the social cohesion in this country and Matt oh, I'm with everyone at the table, but I'm especially with Gary in the sense that we have to remind ourselves that these were two young human beings with their whole lives to spare. ahead and work in the world on our behalf, for us and for our well-being and the safety of our families.

It would be another tragedy if people who were considering a career in law enforcement were deterred by incidents like this, I mean. I think, as John said, we have taken away the courage and grace that came out of this tragedy to encourage people to step forward and move forward into the community like these two officers. Thank you all very much, this is not an easy conversation and I think we should pay our respects to the two officers who lost their lives in this horrible event. I'm Liz Hayes. Good night. Hi, I'm Liz Hayes. Thanks for looking under investigation.

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