What is the human cost to China's economic miracle? | Head to Head

Over the past four decades, China's

economic

rise has lifted millions of people out of poverty and put the country on the path to becoming the world's largest economy, we see an incredible rebalancing of the Chinese economy at a faster pace. faster than any other country, but since President Xi Jinping came to power in 2013 critics say China has become even more autocratic. He has tried to curb corruption but has also cracked down on rivals and invested billions in a stronger military, reflecting a more aggressive foreign policy at home. Up to a million Muslim Uighurs are believed to have been interned by Chinese authorities in so-called re-education centres, this appears to be the most intensive social re-engineering effort by the Chinese state since the Cultural Revolution, but my guest tonight questions all of this. and believes China is a force for good in The World I am Mehdi Hassan and I have come here to Oxford Union to come face to face with Charles Liu, a Chinese financier from Peking University and advisor to the Chinese government.

I will challenge you on China's

human

rights. record and ask him if

china

's

economic

miracle

is sustainable and

what

the hell is going on with the uyghurs tonight. I will also be joined by three experts, steve sang, director of the

china

institute at the school of oriental and african studies in london, andreas fulder to china. expert at the asia research institute at the university of nottingham and victor gao vice president of the center for china and globalization in beijing and former interpreter of the late president deng xiaoping ladies and gentlemen, please welcome charles liu liu is the founder and Chairman of the investment company How Capital and regular television commentator on Chinese issues, Charles Liu, thank you for joining me face-to-face with Chinese President Xi Jinping, whose government you have advised, said last year that China is ready for a bloody battle against our enemies and started 2019 by ordering the liberation army, to quote, prepare for a comprehensive military fight who do you talk to, there is only one country that is sending warships to the Chinese territory that is threatening china with all kinds of things, the United States, the United States, but every time I hear President Trump speak, he says how much he loves President Xi and that they are great friends, but everything he is doing, all the executive orders, the military budget, everything this focuses on challenging China's position in the world.

China has a military post. The United States has 800. It is interesting because They say that the United States has a threat and threatens China and that China is reacting, it is funny because the United States commander on the ground in Asia Pacific, Admiral Phil Davidson, told the US Senate exactly the opposite, says, through fear and economic pressure, Beijing is working to expand its form of ideology to break down and replace the existing rules-based international order who is replacing the rules of the international order who is cracking down on the WTO who abandoned the Paris climate agreement who is challenging the deal made with the Iranians who is not China i I mean you can talk all about America but I'm not here to defend America from Trump but The reality is that China hawks, regardless of the United States, are on the rise in your country on December 20, Chinese Rear Admiral Luo Yuen said the Chinese navy.

We should consider sinking two American aircraft carriers and killing 10,000 American military personnel. What the United States fears most is suffering casualties. We'll see how scared America is. Oh, I don't take these kinds of comments seriously. The possibility of a war. between the two sides is minimal last year the chinese government announced its biggest increase in military spending in three years even though it already has a defense budget that is larger than that of the united kingdom france south korea and russia combined and still thus announced the largest increase For three years, this is not just about words or when the United States continues to challenge as they do to enter Chinese territorial waters.

However, you look at it, the total amount is still insignificant compared to the United States, it is significant, but you spend more than the United Kingdom, France. and Russia combined three nuclear powers the three nuclear powers in terms of population, that depends on how much the population has to do with its military spending, it has a large population, we know

what

that has to do with military spending per capita, India has a huge population they don't spend a quarter of what you say they wish they had the money to spend more let's talk about something that doesn't directly involve the united states the south china sea arbitration the permanent court of arbitration in the hague ruled in 2016, the chinese claims over the south china sea have no legal basis and yet the chinese continue to ignore that ruling china is claiming more and more land, more resources, building more and more artificial islands, i think so far seven malaysia vietnam indonesia brunei the Philippines, everyone has been upset with Chinese behavior in the South China Sea, with China taking these reefs cut off.

The entire discussion about the South China Sea has been about so-called freedom of navigation. When was the last time you saw a blockade of freedom? of navigation and when was the last time you heard that the countries you have named, including Vietnam, raised an issue about China and the South China Sea? Only your American and Australian friends are jumping all over this. It's interesting to say that because in 2018 a group of Asian countries, mainly their neighbors, were asked if it would be better to have uh for the world if the United States or China were the main world power. 73 percent of Asian respondents, including Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Indonesia, favored the United States to 12 China even with Trump as president 77 of Filipinos say they prefer the United States to lead the world over Beijing.

It's pretty damning to choose Trump over China. That's pretty damning. I would say it is, but in practical terms I don't see these countries in terms of their foreign policy and the fact that their governments are addressing the Chinese as a pure survey would seem to indicate that we bring our panel here to see what they think about this so far andreas fulder is a german academic a china expert at the asia research institute at the university of nottingham andreas should China's neighbors and the world at large are concerned about this increase in Chinese military spending, yes I think They should, and the truth of the matter is that when Xi Jinping talks about China's national rejuvenation it is worrying because the underlying principles are radical. his revisionist and expansionist foreign policy, as evidenced by the artificial reefs in the South China Sea, but also his threat to annex Taiwan, which is a liberal democracy, a very vibrant society just off the coast of mainland China and which I believe It's your game plan. project his power abroad to bolster his support at home charles just addresses andreas a specific point about taiwan you were born in taiwan of course if you still lived in taipei today in the capital of taiwan wouldn't you worry about some of the things ? rhetoric coming out of Beijing about the annex It wouldn't be good at all not because I actually went.

Should we worry? No, I went to Taipei for the midterm elections. What I see today in Taipei or in Taiwan is that people in Taiwan have gotten fed up with the so-called independence policy, they are looking for a better life, why did 170,000 engineers leave Taiwan and go to Shenzhen? Why are the 90 startups in Taiwan targeting the Chinese market and not the Chinese market? Taiwanese market I think the fact that the economies have become so integrated between Taiwan and China leads to, let's say, the possibility of addressing the issue, but my impression is that young Taiwanese are actually quite worried that they could lose out in this process and will also lose their de facto sovereignty as a liberal democratic island state, but that is no longer considered the main issue even for the youngest.

Well let me bring in Steve Sang who is a British political scientist born in Hong Kong and currently director of the China Institute at the school of oriental and African studies in London uh steve is this a new form of aggressive foreign policy in the channels or Is it just an exaggeration on the part of China's enemies? What is China trying to do with its foreign policy? Are you trying to change the region? change the world after Xi Jinping became China's leader, what we are seeing is an assertive foreign policy that essentially between China now requests and demands that the rest of the world pay due respect to China and what, among the Due respect, it is something that should be judged by the communist party of china or indeed by the leader of china communist party general secretary xi jinping okay, we also have viktor gao with us, one of the experts in international politics best known in china, vice president of the center for china and globalization in beijing former interpreter of the late president xiaoping it cannot be denied that the current chinese president is taking different measures than his predecessors demands respect on the regional and international stage china does not want challenge the international order today but china wants to have a better order Say today greater participation in the international order and I hope the rest of the world respects China's request because this is legitimate, this is legal, this is not a revolutionary means to overthrow to the international community in the South China Sea.

There is a debate about legality, Stephen You. We are smiling when they said that China is not there to change the international system as we know it right now but it is transforming it when the United Nations agency for

human

rights was being changed and then China played a leading role in the transformation . creation of the human rights council and, in doing so, basically changes the discussions at the UN about human rights. Now China is not at the receiving end of criticism over human rights. Charles, let me ask you, this is one of the reasons why so many people abroad are concerned about Chinese foreign and defense policies right now is because they have a president who at home seems hell-bent on increasing his own power and getting to be Chinese president since Mao, as you know, tended to serve five or ten years in office, but President Xi has cracked down on his rivals, refused to name a successor, and last year got rid of term limits.

He is preparing to be president for life, isn't he dictator in chief? Well, two things, number one, is a one-party system and, thank God, the key. The problem for the Chinese government is that it has tried very hard over the years to maintain stability. You are claiming this president for life. The thing is precisely that he does not understand how the system works. Well, explain it. Take the rook, for example, making its second turn. seen as an outgoing duck for the entire second term and was unable to implement or execute many things that he wanted to execute, does not mean that he will actually continue for another term, but that perspective would eliminate the possibility of being considered an outgoing duck, but it would gives the option to serve legally for life in the system if it goes in that direction, it seems like it's going in that direction, not necessarily well.

Quick question, although in last year's vote in March that was the vote in the national people's congress to get rid of term limits the delegates voted 2,964 of them voted two of them voted against 2,959 voted in favor was that one free and fair election I wonder, I mean, 2900 people just voted the way he wanted a coincidence, no, it was, it's that our Chinese policy apparently works that's how it works. Okay, it's good to hear such support for the system. I think you shouldn't address the whole Chinese system on how it works compared to what you have in the world.

In the West we must remember that 50 years ago 90 percent of the population was illiterate, only 10 percent were literate or sophisticated or educated. The whole process of transforming that into a modern society has taken a long time, by the way, many Chinese were They were not happy with the two term limits and they turned to uh Weibo and other online forums and they were not allowed. In fact, the Chinese government did not allow the words personality cult, my emperor, to limit the term, emperor, she, everyone was not allowed to use those words. online to avoid people's dissatisfaction with this movement, you read Weibo, I don't read Weber, but others who read it for me, okay, now it's comments, your views and comments describing your views and comments on this topic, they closed them, it is not true.

It was closed because I can. I also wrote something about this. You wrote something critical of President Xi and Hueber. Oh wow, what did you write? I said that this would not be seen well by thewestern press. That is your definition of criticism of The Chinese President, very well done Charles, we have to act in time. The time is short. We want to talk about the economy in the second part before we do that. There is another big internal problem that has grabbed many

head

lines in recent months. Hey, your country, the government you support. and have advised according to a UN rapporteur according to the US Department of State according to Amnesty International according to Human Rights Watch according to many journalists and many others are believed to have detained perhaps a million people or more mainly from the Muslim ethnic minority Uyghur in re-education camps a million people charles a million is fine, it certainly doesn't make

head

lines in China, isn't that because there is no free press in China, so you can't have headlines about the Uyghurs?

No, it's because there are 55 national minorities. In China and the Uyghur population is a total of nine to ten million. I think in Xinjiang yes, zero point zero point seven percent, but the world doesn't work with percentages if you lock up a million. the world doesn't pay attention one point four billion people need to be fed they need to be locked down I have two million million people in Xinjiang who should be concerned to hear that a million of their fellow Chinese men and women have been blocked if it's true, sure, how do we establish if it's true or not?

Why don't you let people come in to check and count? Then we will know for sure. I think people have visited, no, been on some kind of supervised trips with Chinese. monitors to select camps where they have not been able to see everything in fact Reuters went on a trip last year they took them around they allowed them to meet some people and the people sang if you are happy and you know it applaud and the Chinese government monitors remained in the room all the time and no one was allowed to talk to anyone. Well, you know, Charles, there are people who have been in those camps and who have come out of those camps and are now refugees in the US, in Kazakhstan, and they have testified about hooding, shackling, torture, sleep deprivation, humiliation. sexual, famine, this is what comes out of people who have been in those camps in Xinjiang, if it is true then they are certainly very bad, this is not my area of ​​expertise and I am not.

I am involved in politics and have never been to Xinjiang. I am more concerned about the economic aspect. Well, let me bring in Victor Gao, who is a well-known Chinese political commentator. Even Chinese government officials have admitted that these camps exist there. They are people locked up for re-education, in quotes, but in the most horrible conditions and we are talking about a million people, Victor, how can you justify that the people who move are our brothers and sisters? I have many friends among legal people among Muslims in China they are a minority, most of them are great Chinese citizens, that's for sure, however, among Muslims there are extremists, there are terrorists and there are separatists, separatists who want to divide Xinjiang from China in China under the Chinese. law, anyone who tries to separate any part of Chinese territory outside of China is committing a crime, we must be fully aware of this legal issue, we cannot tolerate anyone denying that they have been caught up in international terrorism, no one denies it, I wonder why no. lock them up why lock up a million people first of all together in Xinjiang there are less than 10 million legal people if you are really serious to believe that there are a million people among the wiggles who are locked in the so-called caps? this is completely invented how many people are locked up I don't know you can't say it's not a million if you don't have an alternative number there are several things one is the definition of a million or less than a billion that's one What happens is that the other is locked up, well, they are not there of their own free will.

No? There are people in Xinjiang who are undergoing training or retraining for educational purposes. There are people for educational purposes. Kairat Sama Khan, who was one of the people. who managed to get out of a camp says we were forced to sing political songs and study chinese communist party speeches we were forced to sing long live xi jinping before they gave us food many of us have tried to commit suicide allow I want to say one thing for sure , no one in China is saying "long live Xi Jinping", so whatever report you are citing is false to begin with, this is what I don't understand.

Victor, UN Amnesty International, human rights, surveillance, US State Department, miscellaneous, uh, China. Experts, human rights activists have come up with this figure of one million based on satellite photographs and people who have come out and talked about it. You're saying it's not a million. I'm asking very simply, how many are there? I think we need. to simply differentiate the realities on the ground vs falsifying the claims so uga refugees have spoken of being tortured in the camps they are just making it up according to you i think many of these claims are falsified and you are friend of weaker people, okay, andreas fuller, what do you think of victor's answer and charles' answers so far?

I think you know that what charles and victor said is indefensible and let me explain to many people who support the chinese communist party, cultural difference has to be dealt with through homogenization and assimilation, but let me give a human face to these people. There is a pop singer who is famous for a song in which he encourages young people to study hard to do physical exercise and, to be Curtis, he is not a terrorist victor or a second example, there is another gentleman, he was a very promising footballer because he traveled abroad, he was considered a potential terrorist, he is in a camp, he is not a terrorist and last but not least, and it is very important, the peace activist Ilham Toti, a very respected person.

He has always argued that the Chinese, predominantly Han, should get along with the weaker and vice versa. He was locked up for life for this kind of moderate defense on behalf of his own people, so I would say that these three individuals should be released immediately. Millions of weak and Kazakhs must be freed immediately. There is no justification for causing so much harm to them and their families. They should be able to live in peace and free from fear. Victor, what is your response to that? And Charles, you wanted to come in. I know how many Wiggle wrestlers are fighting, it's definitely not five thousand millionaire people, so why not those five thousand people?

A legal fighter fighting in Syria has about three or four people in his family fighting together. How do 5,000 fighters go to Syria? Come on, Charles every The country has had problems with the fighters leaving for Syria. France has suffered many more terrorist attacks than China. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. He didn't lock up a million Muslims in France. Five thousand and how they got there. There is a similar support group in France Charles and the French have not locked up a million people they have a problem the French say they have a problem radicalization they have put a state of emergency but they have not arrested a million people but not even the French have said it you can't name your son Muhammad you can't have children entering mosques government employees can't fast during Ramadan you can't grow up quote abnormally long that's what Beijing has banned we make people do that's false What if children are not allowed? go to mosques that is totally false why it is false how do you know it is false because I have seen the photos of them from the posters there are photos I have a neighbor next door immediate neighbor uh who is Muslim and who goes to the mosque with their children in Beijing , yeah, he's not in a hut, I'm not, on the one hand you say don't ask me, I don't know anything about this, but then you jump up and say it's all fake, Stephen, let me ask you.

This is what you're hearing Charles Victor say. This is propaganda. What do we know? What does the evidence you have seen suggest to you? That can be corroborated about what is happening on the ground in a place like Xinjiang. What we do notice about the political situation. The system is that the Chinese Communist Party has the monopoly on truth and the monopoly on history in China, therefore what they say must be true by definition and what anyone else has to say that does not coincide with what What the party says is forced news. That's what we're dealing with when we talk about one-tenth of an identifiable minority in the country of origin being identified and put in camps.

How would our friends here feel if a tenth of the native population of Shanghai or Beijing lived in camps? Charles Do you want to answer that I have never thought about that question? Okay, but he just raised it. I just don't see it. I don't see it happening. I don't see it being physically possible to dedicate this excessive amount of time. something that many, including myself, don't think is sincere is that I think the negative propaganda on your part meta this is what I don't understand, on the one hand you say I don't know anything about this, on the other hand you say I think it's false , you can't have it both ways Charles, if you don't know anything about it, maybe you shouldn't accuse other people of making things up and you and Victor say it's all fake news, maybe there's some fake news in there.

Well, in that sense, we are going to leave the discussion, we are going to take a break, we will return in the second part of the confrontation with Charles Liu with our panel of experts, which we are going to hear from. our patient audience here at oxford union we are going to talk about the chinese economic

miracle

and much more welcome face to face on al jazeera my guest today is charles liu the financial entrepreneur and formal advisor to the chinese government without a doubt the chinese economy It has been a success story in many ways.

Record growth. Millions of people were lifted out of poverty. I don't think anyone is asking that, but, as you know, there are of course serious concerns about the sustainability of the Chinese economic miracle. How long will it last? Finally, the job market has become much more difficult. Exports and imports have slowed. Chinese stock indices I think lost almost a quarter of their value last year. Even the trade war with the United States seems to be taking its toll. Are we witnessing the beginning of the end? Of the Chinese economic miracle, I remember a 1998 book written by a prominent economist called The Coming Collapse of the Chinese Economy and that's 1998, yes, 2019.

About 20 years ago, there has been a lot of discussion about the coming collapse of the Chinese economy and the imminent collapse of the Chinese economy. collapse of the Chinese financial system the imminent collapse of Chinese productivity I fear so far it has proven to be more durable the Chinese economy is transforming from cheap labor manufacturing for Fortune 500 companies to a domestic market and domestic consumption significantly significant now 6.5 percent is okay, I would tell my co-investors that even four percent is pretty good because the base is much larger now, okay, one thing that has been a consistent trend in China that has been getting worse and worse in recent decades is inequality. that seems to be out of control in your country there were 89 new Chinese billionaires in 2018 alone, that is, almost two new billionaires a week, while tens of millions of people still live in poverty, why does a self-proclaimed communist society produce so many billionaires and So much income inequality, well, I think it's the value of creation in society as a whole.

Deng Xiaoping said that some people get rich first in terms of development. Milton Friedman said something similar. I think the capitalists also say the same thing, to be honest, it exactly trickles down into the economy. now it's the Chinese it's a Chinese socialist way it's okay, is it a trickle or is it something much more significant according to a recent study by the European think tank quotes Brugel the large and persistent income gap is partly the fault of taxes and transfers China system and quote very generous personal income tax reliefs and exemptions that favor high-income earners.

You are a high-income individual, aren't you, Charles? How have you benefited from this tax system while other Chinese have not? There are two aspects of these new tax laws that were just implemented that are supposed to be much fairer. Secondly, it is very, very difficult to have a transforming society that is changing so rapidly and to have a tax system that fits every stage of life. Development if you look at China in the 80s and early 90s, it was basically cheap manufacturing and then it moved on to something else and yet today article one of the Chinese constitution still says that the People's Republic of China is a socialist state run by the working class.

That's just a completely false description of China today. You are not run by the working class and you are not really a social class. Yes, we are certainly not socialism in Norway and in Finland and Sweden we prefer to look at whathappens. the economy and whether people's livelihoods have improved or not, well let's talk about some of the rich Chinese and what they are doing by the huron group, a highly respected research company that did a survey among high net worth people net in china, rich millionaires, etc. and found that nearly half of wealthy Chinese are planning to move out of China to protect their fortunes and get a better education for their children.

Many Chinese billionaires, millionaires, as you know, I mean, keep talking about the West. West. Many rich people in your country are obsessed with the West. They buy houses in the West. They send their children to school in the West. They buy Western art at ridiculous prices. How is that part of the investment? I also buy things in the West. one in six and wanted to move due to the political environment in China one in five said they wanted to protect their assets three quarters said they wanted their children to have a better education not a great vote of confidence in China from its people richer Okay, I also have investments all over the world, that doesn't mean I'll move out of China.

The number you should look at is the number of students returning to China after being educated in the west, of course, with China's smearing of China. In the United States, many Chinese students are being expelled from American schools. I understand how billionaire businessmen can send their children abroad to study. How do you explain that the president of China, with an official salary of 22,000 a year, pays for the trip of his only daughter? Harvard, how do you explain all these top officials in the political bureau who made $22,000,000 a year and sent their children to some of the most expensive schools?

Private schools and universities, how do they pay for that if you only base it on scores? from sat? Eighty percent of the UC system's population will be Asian. It turns out that they are better students and get scholarships. Xi Jinping's daughter also got a scholarship to go. I don't know about Harvard, I suppose he could have done it because you know that his family, according to a Bloomberg study, are multimillionaires. His brother-in-law's name appeared in the Panama newspapers. The Chinese political elite is plagued by corruption. As you well know, and that's something that's been addressed for the last four years, what does that say about your model that the Chinese government has detained two million people?

Communist party officials have been disciplined for corruption in recent years, thank goodness. They have been detained and what happens to the president and the politburo? It seems like he only arrests people who are not in his inner circle. People he likes never seem to get arrested. It isn't true. Can you name an ally of the president that he has gained? recently who is an ally who is there no politburo members who have been charged well let's ask our panel andreas fulder is here china expert at the asia research institute at the university of nottingham in the uk you have advised the German and European authorities on engagement in China, you shake your head when Charles talks about corruption.

What if there is a problem in China? Is it being addressed well? First of all, of course, it is very opaque. It's a dangerous topic to talk about. However, we know from Wikileaks and one. from the US State Department cables that the Politburo standing committee is basically a cabal of business empires and that these individual members control entire industries, then what was alleged is that, for example, the securities now imprisoned are jo young tells that he basically controlled the oil. industry and, for example, the case of former prime minister Wendy Abao, his wife apparently really liked diamonds, so now she would control the precious gems sector.

If you think about dividing the economic pie this way, then you think this Amazon founder is the richest. man in the world I think it becomes a rather fanciful idea because these members of the permanent political committee probably and their families are much richer than any individual outside of china victor gao is with us expert in chinese international politics vice president of the center for china and globalization in former Beijing interpreter for the late President Deng Xiaoping, how do you explain to someone who has been around some of these people that you have been in their presence where they get all their money if they make 22 thousand dollars a year, first The place for record corruption in China is deeply rooted, secondly, as an institution and as a policy, the Chinese government, the Chinese party and the Chinese people cannot tolerate corruption, so whatever it takes to eliminate corruption and eliminate We will do it to corrupt officials and this is exactly the same.

Charles mentioned that the Chinese system is being particularly ruthless over the last five or six years in pursuing these corruption cases. Chinese overseas wealth has doubled between 2012 and 2018. Yes, it seems they are getting away with offshoring all their assets, let me add. Another point, however, in the last 20 or 30 years, the price of property in China in almost all cities has increased significantly, so the majority of urban citizens of China, to say the least, government officials government can afford to send their children to the best schools in the west, especially the Chinese system of relatives who raise funds to support the prominent member in China, with Andreas' point that the wife of the former Prime Minister minister controls the diamond industry from different politburo members who control different sectors of the economy, how? is that that is socialism with chinese characteristics, that is exactly what we were talking about before the members of the pali office stopped by these things, i mean, the thing is that there was a report from the people's bank of china in 2011 and discovered that since the 1990s, 18,000 party officials, managers of state-owned enterprises such as large state-owned enterprises, etc., had fled the country and taken with them a whopping 120 billion US dollars, if we think about that guy of theft and looting of state assets if they had been invested. let's say in the chinese education system or in the chinese health system that would have alleviated a lot more poverty let me bring in uh steve sang who has been waiting patiently hong kong born british political scientist currently director of the china institute at the school of oriental culture and African Studies in London How bad is the inequality problem in China right now?

Could any of our distinguished guests from China tell us what the Genie coefficient is in China? This is the measure of inequality. That is the measure of inequality. I studied China my entire career. I confess that I cannot tell you because that figure is not available, because the Chinese government does not want it to be available, perhaps the party has corrected them, but if the party has the information it is top secret, it is completely classified, we cannot do it. Know what's winning in China. Many people are not very happy to compare their wealth with that of their neighbors.

However, one thing is true among the majority of Chinese people: if that person compares his own situation with that of 10 years ago, 20 years ago. or 40 years ago everyone was better off, that's the megatrend we need to stay focused on the big changes that are happening to everyone in the Chinese people and that means that every Chinese is a major problem, you can't just ignore it and just I want to finish, Steve makes this point about where this wealth comes from and how they use it to spend abroad. This corruption problem is basically systemic and the Chinese government under Xi Jinping has done a lot to deal with corruption.

You cited the two million. general figure there is also a different set of figures the so called figure of the tiger the tigers are basically vice ministers and about the high ranking leaders in the Chinese government according to Western academic calculations we estimate that around just under 200 tigers have been shot down by the media Chinese state companies give him figures close to 700. Among the 200 or 700 figures, name three who are people who have previously worked with President Xi and why it is so difficult to name even one, Charles, do you want to name someone you don't know? ?

We know who they are, we know they're 200 and 700, but you know you can tell who they are, but how do you identify who's in which camp? We can see his career, the party is very good with its professional structures, who has worked. with president xi when he was in fujian paul, your position is that the people around trinity have not been locked up for corruption. That's Steve's position. Can you discuss that? Do you have a person? I don't have an opinion on that. Alright. here, come on, I want to go back to something you said when you said that uh uh, the amount of wealth that came out of China in the last 10 years or something between 2012 and 2018 has doubled.

I think GDP has also doubled. of Chinese billionaires taking advantage of tax havens I wonder how that's okay in a supposedly socialist country eh, whether you're defining socialist you know maybe how socialism is defined I think socialist is just a slogan okay, it's actually the Chinese way to do things, I'm glad we agree, it's just a slogan for the Chinese, okay, let's go to the audience that has been waiting very patiently, uh, raise your hands, wait for a microphone to arrive, let's go with Madam, thank you very much. I have not been able to talk to my family since early 2017.

Like many thousands of oilmen living abroad, and my question to you, Mr. Liu, are you really bothered or worried that the country you made your home after to renounce your Taiwanese citizenship? It is criminalizing all people and implementing policies that top lawmakers and jurists at major Western news organizations have described as crimes against humanity. Thanks, first of all, I have weaker friends. If it is valid that there are things that are not done correctly, of course, it is not good. Of course it's not good before you said it was propaganda from me when you hear these stories, do you realize it's probably not better to just dismiss everything as propaganda?

I use propaganda because you are your abrasive and aggressive way of approaching it, okay, I'm sorry, that's how it was. It's not about the substance, you just don't like my style, it's okay, I can live with that, the substance is no, she's telling you what's going on, she can't talk to her family, I'm just asking this lady, I do not do it. I know, okay, I don't know, the victims want to jump up and leave, Victor, no, because of this exceptional lady. I would say that if you are a wego, I would treat you like a brother or sister the same way I would treat most people among the group. lay people secondly, if I can give you some advice, I would say several things, if any of your brothers and sisters and relatives are members of the communist party in China, then, as a matter of party discipline, they are not allowed to go to a mosque if they want it that way. go to a mosque okay, quit the communist party of china so that the china government has discipline if you are a member of the communist party of china don't go to a mosque go to the buddhists temple country don't go before me Go back to the audience, I need to ask you for a follow-up on this.

There are now reports that the Chinese government has not really denied that the communist party you speak of is sending Han Chinese to live in Uighur homes to watch them 24/7 while they eat, drink, pray, It is fake news and there is no problem believing in Islam. I have many Islamic friends. It's okay, you have weaker friends. You have Muslim friends. I understand. No. However, do you have people living in your house? against their will because many Uighurs do it at the moment, however, if someone in China misuses Islam as a pretext to separate Xinjiang from China, that is a crime.

Are there people living in houses in Xinjiang right now in the name of the communist party? I don't know, I've never been inside a legal friend's family, unfortunately, many members of the Chinese Communist Party have. Let's go back to the hearing. Let's take the lady with the green scarf to the back. Yes, you said it was 5,000 people. Syria and the fighting and my question is how did you allow them to go to Syria to fight with such a strict barrier every 100 meters, there is a checkpoint and although people cannot go from one city to another city and there is such strict surveillance ?

How did you allow them to go to the victor of Syria? Do you want to answer that question? Most of these fighters moving now in Syria and previously and currently in Afghanistan have clandestinely left China, so that action itself is a violation of Chinese law again. There are smuggling activities bringing beggars from China through Myanmar to Malaysia, for example, so this is a problem not only for China but also for China's neighboring countries. Andrés Fulder, you are here in China. I just want to know your opinion onthis argument about terrorism. In his opinion, it is a credible argument.

Well, you yourself pointed out that all countries have to deal with extremism. The question is how to do that. I think it is necessary to create this mono um, a racial nation where ethnic difference is not tolerated. The cultural difference. is not tolerated and where religious activity is not tolerated, I think this is due to lack of a better word, a rabbit hole that the Chinese coin party has entered, which I am not quite sure how they can get out of. , where the exit ramp actually is. It's because you want to keep a million weaklings in these camps forever or for the next five years or when you'll release them.

I need to get back to the hearing, but very briefly, Victor, how long will these fields be open? I disagree with the premise of your question. More mosques are currently being built than probably any other religious establishment in China. Okay, back to the hearing. This lady here in the black shirt in the second row in China still has a bad social relationship. The safety net and labor rights and working conditions of the working poor remain a problem in China. I want to ask how these conditions can be improved. Charles. There is a deficit in the social security fund.

There is no doubt one way it has been achieved. What has been addressed has been the allocation of ten percent of the shares of state-owned companies, many of which are listed in New York, Hong Kong or China, and allocating that amount to the social security fund is not the problem that came up again. This idea of ​​the slogan of socialism or not at the beginning of the program you were telling me oh India I wish we could spend what we spend on defence, but is that really something to brag about when you spend, I think, five per cent of your GDP on health and two percent? percent on education, which is less than what Sudan spends on health and education as a proportion that is quite shameful for a country of its size, absolutely its wealth is called socialism, I think abandoning the poor, I think it is healthy, I think health education spending should be more in terms of, right?

It has increased significantly, but why is it so low in a country that claims to care about the working class? I could spend more, sure, let's answer a few more questions from the lady in the audience in the red shirt my question is: do you think the rise of populism and the economic slowdown in the West is possibly a threat to China? Population rise, ultimately, in a political sense, is a threat to the entire world because what we have in terms of the United States, for example, and even Europe are a challenge to the rise of Asia in general, not it's China, because ifLook at the 280 components for your iPhone 270, something that is made in Asia and assembled in China and its efficiency increases due to the size of the market, so this increase in populism in trying to move the supply chain from Asia to the United States is a Threat: it is a threat to the entire world, not just China, because this supply chain in this market has been very beneficial to the entire world.

This is how the West, including the United States and Europe, has been able to obtain products with lower and cheaper

cost

s of living. Okay, come on gentlemen who were waiting with the hat. I lost contact with my old families since the beginning of 2017. And recently I found out that my brothers and them are in the so-called concentration camps and I don't know if they are still alive or not. and secondly, I don't know if my mother is okay and why I can't communicate with them and also why they didn't allow my mother or my relatives to communicate with me and why my mother must suffer for not seeing or hearing anyone. her children, okay, that's my question, that's the statement.

I have no idea about this. Let me turn it into a question. When you hear those stories, aren't you worried as a citizen of China about what might be happening in your country? Yes I am and when you return to China you are going to do anything about it, I will find out more about it, okay, let's go, let's go back to the hearing, I said at the end, um, personally, do you think that the Chinese notion of being human? The rights are fundamentally different, and if so, how would you define China's human rights policy? Well, good question, I think there are cultural differences.

In terms of human rights, for example, cultural differences and specific circumstances, there were many complaints about the violation of human rights. force one family per child, but if that policy was not implemented, China would now have over two billion people to feed and educate them, so there are concrete circumstances and very pragmatic issues that need to be addressed, okay, gentlemen, the beard, I said yes, yes Do you want to get up and take the microphone? Do you think it is good practice for the Chinese government to have full control over the information its citizens see online?

Do you sneak a peek at the rest of the internet when you're in the UK? No, I don't, I don't have any problems because I don't take sneaky peaks at things that don't interest me. Well, in terms of your question, should the Chinese government control the flow of information decisions? I think uh. There should be some measure of control, even in the United States, total control in China, which should be reduced, it should be reduced, would you like to see it reduced in China, yes, do you think it will be like that in some cases, has it been?

Okay, let me ask you if we're out of time, but I don't want to ask you this. You were born in Taiwan in a capitalist society. You moved to the United States when you were a child. You studied at New York University in Princeton. You worked at the UN, but. In 1975 I believe you gave up your Taiwanese passport and your American green card to become a citizen of the People's Republic, which caused you to give up all those freedoms and move to China. I felt quite oppressed in the United States. Okay, I participated with Martin Luther. king in the civil rights march in 1968 wow and uh against the war in Vietnam and I got one of my fellow students at Princeton beaten to death by rednecks just because he was Chinese and you thought China was the place to go for get more, no, no.

I just thought if they don't want a Chinese, I'll just be Chinese and you'll participate in the mlk civil rights protests of 1968. Do you think those protests could ever happen in China? I was actually surprised how it took America 200 years. address the issue of black people sitting in the back of buses, so China is behind schedule, those protests may happen, but not at this time. Well, I hope China doesn't have to. Protests are allowed for these things to be addressed at this time. This is the point I want to make, you can't protest in China, no way, that's what you're avoiding them, no, no, there's a lot of protests in terms of even when the stock market crashed, you know people was protesting, Charles Liu, we'll have to do it. leave it there thank you so much for joining me on the show thank you to our audience here at Oxford Union thank you to our panel thank you for watching thank you charles liu you