The Manipulation Expert: You're Being Manipulated! Use Jealousy To Manipulate People! Robert Greene

You need this skill if there is someone in your life and you don't know if it is a snake or really your friend, approach it from an angle and surprise it and for a second you detect what we call, you must become aware. Of that, Robert Green is one of the best-selling authors in history, he is an internationally renowned

expert

in power strategies, he has been mentioned in songs by Jay-Z Kanye West, the godfather of seduction and the mastery of power, We have this idea that if I work really hard, I should be successful, but I kept noticing this blind spot that

people

had, they were terrible at dealing with

people

and if you're not careful and constantly misunderstand people, they could

manipulate

you and hurt you. , but if you follow the process that I explained to you.

It will be the best defense you can have in your life, you know all the tricks that people are playing on you, we have to learn to look behind people's masks,

being

a human

being

means lying, but you know what does not lie, the body language, eyes. It's a hard lie, a smile tells you hundreds of different things if you know how to read it, but the problem you have is that you think it's a natural ability. I'm a human being. I know how to read people, you don't, you're operating. in the dark, but I think everyone has that potential, so the first thing you do is be enemies, do we all have enemies?

Yes, they sabotage you, they hurt you and you don't want them in your life, and a common sign that a friend is there. It's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have five million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number I simply cannot fathom and is a Dream I could never have had: we started serious CO a little over three years ago and in my wildest expectations we could have already had 100,000 subscribers, so you can imagine how surprised I am that so many of you have chosen Tune into these conversations every week and spend some time with us, so thank you and I made a deal with you.

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Robert, you wrote a book about human nature in 2018 called The Laws of Human Nature, why did you write that book? Well, it is the fruit of many experiences that I have had, so I wrote the 48 laws of power and before that book. I was someone, I never had any power in life, I was kind of a failure, you know, I had been through so many different jobs and all of a sudden I write this book and people come to me for advice, it's a bit of a shock. , TRUE? and I started to notice a trend and the trend is that we live in this intense technological age where we have so much power at our fingertips and it's so easy to get attention and we have this idea that everything in life should be easy it's all about be okay if I put in a lot of effort I should be successful but I kept noticing this blind spot that people had, they were terrible at dealing with people, they were making all these mistakes, everyone wears a mask, you wear a mask I wear a mask when we're in the public sphere we don't say exactly what we think well, we are all a little strategic and if you are not careful you are constantly saying the wrong things you are constantly misunderstanding people, you are doing things in your job that you think are going to impress but they have the effect contrary and then something bad happens and you're confused and excited, it was like this circular atmosphere of pain around the world of people suffering because they don't know how to handle the people in their lives and because we're so virtual and so locked in our phones that We're getting worse and worse at reading other people and understanding them, you know? when I sit in front of you I can see your body language I can see your non-verbal expressions I can see all kinds of things I can deal with you as a human being but when I spend 95% of my time behind a screen you know and that's how I date the basic human skills of understanding, connection, empathy and reading, which are being irremediably degraded.

That's my long answer to why I wrote that book, if there's anyone listening who can relate to certain parts of what you just read. He said maybe it's a lack of their own self-awareness or maybe they have a kind of awareness of others. Is there a starting point to reverse? Is there perhaps a more important skill that we must master as the basis of that transformation? Yes, it's very simple is to get on your knees and realize that you're bad at dealing with people the problem you have is that you think it's a natural ability yes, I'm good at that, I just wing it, I understand what I'm doing I'm a human being I know how to read people Etc., you don't know, you are operating in the dark, you are groping, first realize that you need this skill and once you realize that the first thing you do is look inward , look at your own nature, look at the things I write about in the book about narcissism and irrationality and instead of looking for people around you who fit into those categories, look at yourself so that it all starts with your self- awareness that you are the best subject of human nature, so when I was writing this book it was quite painful, so I am writing a chapter on narcissism, one of the longest chapters in the book because it is a very important topic and I I say to myself.

Robert, you are quite a narcissist, you didn't think of yourself that way, but you have all these classic tendencies that you write about in the book, it was painful, but to come to understand narcissism and other people I had to do it. I somehow understand it in myself, so step number one is that I need this knowledge. Actually, I'm not very good at dealing with people. It has caused me problems. Go back and review the problems and mistakes you have made. The mistakes that I have also made. many, many times and then when you realize that you want this knowledge, then you start by looking inward, but if you think that it is not necessary, you are not, it is something interesting or maybe dabble in it.

It won't mean anything to you, you have to feel that pain that you've been through in life and it's kind of an ongoing pain, it's one that I still have even though I wrote the book in which I misread people and in the that without realizing it hurting them when it was not my intention to hurt them, you know, I feel it and I suffer from it, so the pain you feel and the emotions that this generates motivate you to understand other people better, what if you find? things in yourself like you said that you don't like you find narcissism in yourself you find darkness in yourself what should we do with it we should heal it solve it you should look at it you are meant to face it um I mean I have in the book a quote from the great writer Anton Czech from that people cannot begin to change themselves until they know who they are until they understand themselves well, then we all want to change, we all want We will be better with ourselves, but until we know who we are until we realize our flaws and weaknesses, then the main law of human nature, if I could sum it up, is that we don't like to look at ourselves, it's always the other person.

Those who have the problem are those who are aggressive or passive-aggressive, they are those who feel envy, they are those who are rational, but I am not, I am not a model of virtue, I am always moral, I am always good, I am always intelligent, etc., so the point is not to punish you and leave, damn it, I'm a horrible human being, we're all human, we come from the same source, we all have the same ancestors, do we all? the same defects in our brain, it's not that you're exceptional, it's not that you're the only person who doesn't have narcissism, who doesn't have self-absorption, so realizing that you're connected to all these people, they all have these defects and weaknesses.

It's actually not a bad thing, it's a good thing and then by examining yourself deeply, you can start to change some of these things, you know, it's like you. I don't say, oh damn, I'm a narcissist. I'm self-absorbed I think about myself a lot I love talking about myself, which is something I'm afraid I like to do well, the point is off, oh well, I'm just depressed, I can't do anything. do once I'm aware of it I can start to change it, but if I'm always repressing if I'm always thinking no, I'm fine, I don't have those problems so if you can't see them, how can you do it? change them how can you deal with them?

How can you become a better person? How can you change those qualities you don't want? One of the most important things in the laws of human nature is that you have patterns that you are compulsive about. of your character, these patterns that you see in your intimate relationships, you always fall in love with the wrong person or sometimes you fall in love with the wrong person, you see it in your work world. I make these mistakes. I get fired for this reason, etc., etc., and they are good patterns but we tend to repeat them over and over again and these are compulsive behaviors being aware of these patterns being aware of these things now you can begin to have the power to change them many people climb the mountain of awareness and they get I was thinking about people in my life who have climbed the mountain of awareness and in my own life hill things that I am aware of Darkness within me that I am aware of or challenges or patterns of the that I'm consciously taking the next step, so I think becoming aware is painful and then doing something about it is difficult, it's painful because there's a lot of cognitive dissonance associated with finding out that you're not who you want to be and then doing something about it. it requires breaking what seems like old neurological pathways in my brain, you know, triggering, you think about the habit cycle, how hard it is to break that.

I see it very differently I'm afraid, so I think it's actually worse when you're not aware of it. who you are when you walk through this world with all these false ideas about who you are you don't even know who you are you wear this mask you are not authentic you behave in the world as if you are someone else and you are not aware of it, but it causes you pain, it makes you suffer because you are not aware of the real person you are. You are not authentic and you are not accepting some of these dark things. qualities it is actually a very enlightening experience it can actually be euphoric you say I am an animal I am not this saint I am not this Paragon that I thought I was I am a flawed animal I can embrace that we are all like this and it is a good thing and to feel that you have this and you are accepting it.

I have a chapter on the dark side of human nature. Everyone has a dark side. I have it. You got it right. And see that dark side. which is something that you have been repressing since childhood and dealing with it and confronting it is actually one of the most wonderful experiences you can have in life because repressing all these things is what makes you miserable in life, but accepting it who you are and being aware of it is actually the liberating thing, you know where our Dark Side comes from what you talk about in chapter nine of the book, well I think it comes from childhood, so when you're a child, when you're three or four years old you are like this whole person I compare you to this round ball you have good qualities you have loving qualities you love your parents maybe you love your siblings maybe but you also have these other darker qualities these kinds of aggressive impulses sometimes you hit people sometimes you say unpleasant things true but you are a complete person it is natural it is who you are that is how you were born it is like a round ball and it is complete and then slowly year after year month after month you have to cut that dark side, that back part of you at school , they tell you to never show that part of yourself, your parents come, you have to be nice, you have to get along, we want to be proud of all of you. of those aggressive impulses that you have, all those feelings where you were, you felt envy of someone, whatever you wanted, you had what your brother or sister had, so they all go underground, right?

You force them to come down, you don't want to. deal with them. but they are still there because you are a human being those emotions don't leave you they just get pushed down and go to the back of your head that round ball is now cut off it is like the moon with a dark side and a front and when you are in public and you're at work or in a social situation, you're just showing people that bright, happy side, the good side, and you're doing your best to hide all that dark energy inside of you. from you and then suddenly, because you are not aware of it, it comes out in explosions.

The very typical thing is that you suddenly get angry and explode with an angry email or yell at someone, say something nasty and then look back. And you go where did that come from? Isn't that really me? I'm not like that. I feel embarrassed about it, butWhat you must realize is that it is part of your Shadow that is speaking. It's coming out. You are simply not aware of it. You are trying to control it. too much and I say the best thing to do in life is not to bring out this dark side and just throw it out there all over the world and be nasty and aggressive, that won't work, but you have to find ways to take that energy because That dark side It contains a lot of energy, a lot of power and I use it and channel it in ways that are productive, so I happen to be someone who has quite a bit of aggression.

I must admit that I am extremely competitive even in card games. I don't like losing, so I've channeled that into my books. I take all that energy and put it into making the best books I can on ambition, so if you're ambitious, channel that energy into becoming the best and winning. competition is a productive way to use that dark energy if you feel angry about a cause or something that bothers you about the world some injustices instead of complaining about it Etc you go out and do something you do something you get involved in a movement or whatever, You channel that energy into something productive, that's the way to deal with the dark side and you can't spend your whole life imagining that you're the saint because you're not.

You have these qualities in your book on War Strategies, the second war strategy that you write about is not fighting in the last war and when I read that what I understood was not to be rigid, do you know how you can dismantle the prison of the conventions that they have? lives there for that lawyer or for that person who works in the financial district, who is, you know, 47 and is a lawyer, is a stockbroker and is miserable, they have somehow been imprisoned by their own identity, which is like a set of ideas from the past and I'm really obsessed with how to get out of the way of our own identity so that we can live our fullest lives because even I know it exists and probably even you have created this. perception of who I am and I follow instructions every day yes, it is a trap that you cannot fall into, so one of the laws of power that I have I think is very important.

I think it's the law 25 or 26. I don't remember the number being recreate yourself, so the moment people start, um uh, you know who you are, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, I'm trapped by their perception of me and I always have to be like a little dog acting good for them and I don't want to fall into that trap.

You have to recreate yourself. You have to use your personality and who you are like clay. you're molding, you're like an AR artist and then you change yourself for each person who is different, so for me that means I don't write 48 Laws of Power, Part Two. Now I write a book that is not like the 48 Laws of Power. Not at all, for you it's about doing your podcast, but changing it or maybe you do a different podcast or maybe you start a different career, maybe you become a CEO or an entrepreneur in a different direction. I was recently on Andrew hu huberman's podcast, right? one of the most successful podcasts besides yours in the world and um, I don't want to sound like a brag, but the Mastery book helped him a lot because he was a professor, I think, at Stanford, I hope I got it right, everything was going well.

He was on the fast track in Neuroscience but he was miserable, he hated the politics, he hated everything you have to go through in the Academy and then he read the book and said: I don't know how old he was, he must have done it. He was in his early 30s and says: I don't want to do this, I want to change, I want to recreate myself, he decided to dedicate himself to podcasting to take all his knowledge about science and neuroscience and take it to a different medium, and that's how it is. that is extremely powerful because if he had stayed at the Academy he would have followed the path we are talking about.

Sounds a bit sexier than being in finance at 47 but being stuck in Academia when it doesn't suit you with all the nasty politics that goes on at universities etc, that's a path to misery if he doesn't fit in, so that you have to go through this process all the time and not let other people tell you who you are in the case of Andrew Huberman, who Going from being an academic to a podcaster is quite a feat because there are many forces trying to maintain our existing identity instead, a lot of people and, in a way, crossing the chasm overcomes all that force that says no, we want you to stay.

With us, Andrew, we want you to be an academic. Do you think you're a podcaster? You know that Force intrigues me a lot because everyone, no matter where they are now, is going to try to venture somewhere. otherwise it's a better place where they'll run into that, um, how do you fix that? What's that? How do we understand that Force that is trying to keep us down? It usually happens that when you become successful, people start giving you these identities like that. Define who you are and if you're okay with it, that's fine, you know if you're not, but I'm a big believer in listening to your own pain and listening to your own frustration, so that when you feel frustrated in life, to go through a process you have to look at it and you have to go what is the source of it normally the first thing you will do is blame other people you will blame the world you will blame your spouse your children have whatever and you don't really look at what it is that frustrates you and if you look at it deep enough and you say, I'm really frustrated because I'm not enjoying my job.

I'm making money. I go there every day and I go through the motions and I'm successful and people look up to me but I'm not happy, I'm frustrated, I'm upset, you have to lean into that pain that you have. to lean in, lean on what frustrates you and continue, I cannot continue like this for another 5 years because the mind and the body are linked, there is no difference, they are all, we are all one, we are all a unit, etc. when you start having these frustrations, these desires that don't exist, you are not acting on them, they create physical problems that you are not aware of, why suddenly your blood pressure is increasing, why suddenly your back has pain like What I'm having now, that's all. interconnected and when you are not doing something you are not committed to, your whole being goes out of control, everything is not working, you have to listen to it, you have to understand it and you have to go I want some joy and some excitement in my life I want a challenge it takes some courage because leaving a prestigious job at Stanford where you have money I don't know if you had a permanent position or not or maybe he knew it takes some courage because you're leaving something that that's what you know is a convention which is stable, etc., etc., but you have to go.

It's not worth the price. I am not who I am. I'm going to suffer for it. the path and you know, let's say you decided to go into podcasting and you failed, so be it, then you learn that and you're someone who is very smart, I would have figured out another way, another direction to go if my book was the 48 Laws of Power no. It had been a success. I don't know what would have happened to me, but hopefully I would have figured out another way to do it, you know, because I also had to abandon the career direction that I was going in, but you. you have to try you have to be able to try and you have to go say it yourself it's actually a big thing at 30 let's say go I need something new I need something completely different I need a new challenge I'm going to leave this.

I'm going to start something. You won't believe the energy that will suddenly surge in you. You will suddenly feel invigorated. You will suddenly feel young again. I'm not caught up in this. I can try something else. I'm so intrigued by two internal things that one of them goes back to the case of Andrew, who left Stanford and became a podcaster. Was it my brain? You said he's a smart guy. He would have found out if he had failed. The brain also said that it could always have come back and there is a real illusion. I think sometimes in most of our lives we don't realize that if we mess up and this, as I think Jeff Bezos calls it, it's probably a type two. decision where we can go back out the door, but it's this kind of illusion that we're really going to lose something great if we fail that prevents us from taking the first step and the other thing that made me curious is this idea that pain is a catalyst for change and do people need to get to that point in their lives where they are going?

I'm so sick of this to change can someone change before they get there? Unfortunately no, sometimes the bottom has to fall before you realize what you're doing. You really want and what you really know you need to achieve in life. I wish it weren't like this, but you feel like you are suffering and that you need a change and that if you continue this way, bad things will happen. It is the greatest motivator of all because if you are moderately dissatisfied with your job you will constantly be justifying yourself by saying: "it's okay, it will improve, I will get, there will be a new boss or I can".

Always move from this job to another similar company, you will justify it, you will never get out of it and the trap will just close in on you and you will never get out of it, it's those moments where, damn, I hate this. I can't go on, you know, I'm, I'm going to suicide, I'm going to depression, I'm going to drink, I'm hitting rock bottom, I don't like where I'm going, it doesn't have to be like this. It's so drastic. I know I'm exaggerating, but you have to feel some degree of pain and frustration to say that I need to make a major change in my life.

You know, the other thing I'm saying is in the same book that you were quoting in the As for Warfare, I have what's called the death field strategy, where you feel like he's going to do podcasts and if you go in with the attitude, well if I fail I'll just run back to Stanford, that's a recipe for failure in itself. the attitude is already half fast you're already half in it go to yourself I have to do it I'm cutting my ties at Stanford if this podcast doesn't work out I'm not coming back it gives you the energy the motivation I really want to make it successful, but if you always go for the half-life, going well, if I start this business and it fails, I will go back to live with my parents and I will do it and I will do it.

In this other job you are not going to put all your energy into it, you are not going to give it your all and it will probably fail. It's really, it's so true, he reminded me of something I was reading in one. from the psychology journals about a study they did with participants where they asked them to do a puzzle and offered them a delicious snack as a reward and then in a group they said, this is the only way you're going to get the snack if you do this puzzle. and then in the other group they said that by the way, the same snack is also available in the vending machine at the end of the hall and then the people in the second group where they had a plan B were less committed to doing the puzzle and spent less time trying to solve it. solve it and you did worse on the puzzle and it's this idea that a plan B actually psychologically distracts you from your plan.

Yes, we are animals, right, we have a certain nature, which is what I'm talking about in human nature. and our first ancestors to return to something. I was talking about our brilliance, the power of our species is that we are actually very weak physically compared to chimpanzees, cheetahs and lions etc., but we use our brain and feel the need to feel like we are going to die unless that we don't solve these problems correctly if we don't use our birs if we don't create tools if we don't work together as a team we're going to we're going to die we won't survive it's what makes us inventive it's what makes us creative it's almost like a barometric pressure me Like, that's the metaphor I like to use.

What is that when you feel that pressure inside you and it's very heavy? in a climate like this it is very heavy and thick You are motivated you feel it I have to get up in the morning I have to do this I have to achieve this when that pressure is gone and no You don't feel any pressure in your life, you can do anything and there are no consequences for You will only waste time, you will waste Years, you will waste months, you will never achieve anything, you give someone a deadline, right? accomplishing in two months what would take someone two years to do without a deadline is that need is that feeling that there's a sword on my back I have to do it makes you do things gives you the energy is get rich or die trying quote someone, yeah, you talk about that in Strate um, the book on war strategies, chapter four or strategy number four is about creating a sense of urgency and desperation, and when I was reading that I was thinking.

To be fair, I don't know any great leaders who aren't a little urgent and a little desperate, and even if they want that desperation to galvanize people, there's something about creating urgency and desperation in your life that's amazing Tailwind, is there a way practice in which you think the average person can create the required sense of urgency in their life to be able to get things done right? It's like a level here, so you need challenges in your life, that's what it is. what the death ground is all about, you are challenged, you better accept it if the challenge is too big ifYou're like I'm 24 years old and I've never written a book, but I'm going to write the best book ever.

You are going to fail because it is too far above you. You will never reach it. If it is too low. You will never have the energy. It is too easy. It won't motivate you. But there's a sweet spot I don't know, you just know, just draw it here, I know like here, where it's a challenge, it's above what you can do now, it's not so above that you can't do it. but it's enough of a challenge to say God. You better get your act together. You better gather your energy. You better know how to change my habits.

I have to get up earlier. I have to work harder. Not that I have to. get up at 4 and force myself and exercise Etc. I can get up at 6 6:30 an hour early and I will face this challenge that is a little above my level. It's a powerful way to motivate yourself. You need challenges. You need constant challenges in life or you are going to stagnate or you are going to stagnate, it is just the law of nature, you also talk about false purpose, yes what is false purpose and how do we know the difference? Your purpose in life is something you were born with is like your destiny this is what you were meant to achieve this was what you were meant to be what you were meant to do and we were going through we were talking about it in terms of your childhood Etc true, but we humans don't we are born with that purpose engraved in our heads we don't wake up when we are seven years old and we leave that is my purpose if it were that easy it would be that simple really but since we don't have any direction you know animals don't wake up in the morning if they aren't nocturnal and see what I'm going to do today I can go here I can hunt this animal I can hunt that animal I could eat this no they don't operate on instinct they don't have a purpose it's almost automatic it's almost okay we don't have it we have to find our purpose and why is it so deep and so important that if we don't find it through this authentic process I'm talking about we will find it somewhere else because we need a purpose in life, we need something to live for, what will that be, will it be drugs, will it be some kind of cult What will I have to join, will it be some kind of political organization? movement where I can get out all my anger and vent all my frustrations, you know it will be over and over again, it's something that has nothing to do with who you are personally, but it's something you can believe in and you can give. you have a sense of purpose but it's not really who you are it's like a drug it's drugging you into believing you have a purpose but it's not the true purpose you were born for that's what I mean by false purpose and when we find our purpose Yeah we are capable and lucky enough to find out, what is the variation and what is someone who has found their P purpose capable of versus someone who hasn't?

Do you think what's the difference in how they present themselves, how they deliver the results, they create the impact that they have when you find your purpose it's like everything falls into place. There's no need. You don't need to do almost anything. You will find what you need to find. Good things will come to you. I know it sounds. Woo Woo, I know it sounds mystical, but I definitely think it's right, so it's not like you have to try so hard, yes, you have to learn skills, yes, you have to try hard, yes, you have to work hard, etc, etc, but things just go that way. much smoother when you have it, so for example, one thing that happens when you have a sense of purpose and I hate it is something I feel, so I know my narcissism is coming to light again, I know what I don't want, that's you.

I don't know the power of that, you can't imagine how powerful it is, so people come to me all the time with Robert, we could make a lot of money doing this, we could try this, we could make a TV show out of it. 48 Laws of power let's do this let's do that let's make a game I'm not interested it's not my purpose no, I don't want it if I didn't have that radar I would be distributing myself in eight different places and You know that all my energy would be dispersed, I wouldn't have that focus and probably I would end up feeling pretty miserable because I would have lost my purpose, but when you have a sense of purpose it's like it doesn't exist.

I don't want to do that I don't want to do that I don't want to I want to do this Yes, it can be rigid, you have to be a little flexible, so if someone comes to me and says: Robert, what? about this I'm open to it, it sounds moderately interesting, okay, maybe I'll try it, you know, and open things like that, things like that I'll do in a month, I'll be recording, uh. a French version of the master class, you know, there's a French version of that, so you know, I'm not that rigid and I can only write books.

I can try other things because I see value in it and I'm interested in it, it's a challenge to be able to say no is very important and it's very empowering and that's what a purposeful SS will give you, among other things, there's a quote that says that something like distractions come disguised as opportunities and even to know what a distraction is, you must first understand what your goal is and what your purpose is or else it is impossible to distinguish between a distraction, Robert, come on, let's start a game or an opportunity, which sounds a lot more like that Mastermind thing and I think about this all the time, you know it more clearly.

I'm at the goal and what my purpose is, it's a lot easier to understand what a distraction is because they look when they come into my yeah, well the other thing I do is play for someone to come to me. They go, let's do a TV show about the 48 laws of power and believe me, I've been through that about 85 times, people get to be that and we've even tried it, but I'm telling you. I have worked in Hollywood. I have worked in television. before before I had my books I know the process I know how miserable it can be I know you have no power I am a writer now where I write books and I have all the power I have all the control you go into Hollywood I go to television or the movies 85 you know, another 800 people come together and everyone has their ideas and they change this thing that you have no power and there are meetings and meetings and meetings and talks, talks, talks, talks, I play and I go.

I don't want to fall into that trap. I don't want to spend a year having meeting after meeting after meeting hearing about this possibility of this producer changing him. I play it and say: no, I don't want to. Do it, can you do that when you're younger, like you're 21? No, no, it takes a lot of experience in life because when you're 21 everything looks great and exciting. Yes, I will, why not? Yeah. It'll be fun I'll meet some I'll meet some hot girls I'll do this and that cool you know, etc, you know, no, you don't have that radar, everything seems exciting and attractive. take the pain, I keep going back to the things you wasted time on and the things that failed, the things you didn't like, to teach you the ability to say no and save your energy for what you really love, it should be a young person . just say yes to everything, you know, the problem we have is that everything has to be this way or that way, it has to be black or white and it's not like that, it's something like in the middle, you can learn to dance in the life, right?

You don't have to go this way or that way, you can do both, so the best advice I give people is that your 20s are the best years of your life. In fact, I think 30 is, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that at 20 you are. young you probably look great you're healthy you know you have all these things going on for you I want you to have some fun and I want you to have adventures I don't want you to be 22 years old and go get a job at Goldman Sachs for the rest of your life Etc. .you need fun, you need adventure, you need some ease, you know you want some experiences, but it has to have some direction, it can't just be I'm going to write poetry.

I'm going to do rock and roll I'm going to learn chemistry I'm going to, you know, you know, you know, this, that, there's no connection between all these things, I just try everything for the sake of novelty, that's a recipe for not being successful because what you want to happen is you're 30, now you're past 20, it's usually a time of reckoning with where you're going. I'm not so young anymore. Know? getting older, well, I had fun, I had adventures, I'm ready for something serious and I learned some real life skills, for me personally, I learned how to write um or whatever you did.

Don't just go try 80 different things, you, you, you had four or five that you did, you experimented with everything now I know what I love, now I can follow that path and in Mastery I often tell the story to people from One of the Masters The one I interviewed was Paul Graham, who was the man who started Y Combinator. You've probably heard of Y Combinator. He was someone who entered AI when he was between 18 and 19 years old. He was at MIT, I think in the late 70s, when nobody even thought about it, well, he was a hacker because his father was a scientist who had computers in the 70s and he learned how to hack early on, so he continued the process of getting into the Academy of getting into computer programming programs, etc., and he was on a path like Huberman at MIT to become a professor and master it and he hated it, it was soul sucking, he didn't like politics , he didn't like to deal.

People didn't like the academy, so he quit and became a painter because he loved design and he loved images. He comes back to New York, he lives in a loft, he's painting, he's happy and all, but he doesn't make any money. Then he hears an ad on the radio for "I think maybe it was Netscape, one of the first Internet, you know, whatever you call it, and they say the future of computers is being able to buy and sell products on the Internet." he ends up creating the first, I think the prototype of all the things we have now.

Yahoo ended up buying it for around $5 million and then the rest is history. He spent his 20s trying something learning real skills. He went somewhere else learning something. that he loved it and then he's 30 and he combines the two together and it's a classic example because he gets bored very easily, so why is the combinator worth billions of dollars? He is very successful, he sells it and he gets into something else CU that he likes to write, etc., he is always there, he is a kind of prototype of a lot of what we are talking about.

We've talked a lot about self-awareness and self and all that kind of stuff. What about other people? You know, the only thing that seems to get in the way. All of our goals in life are other people, so if I want to be exceptional at understanding other people's human nature and using it to my advantage, where do I start? What are the types of foundations for being excellent at using other people's? Human nature is an advantage for me, that sounds very narcissistic and very, uh, horrible, but it is what the party is, since it is exactly people, as I said, the main mistake we make when dealing with other people and it is a common mistake that I.

What we also do is that we take appearances for reality, we take their masks for how they seem to us, for their courtesy, for their smiles, for saying oh, I loved you, etc., for reality and we have to learn to look behind the people masks. to learn what really happens behind them and we have to learn some basics about human nature. People like to believe that they are essentially good, you know, holy, virtuous, whatever you want to do it. People want to believe they are intelligent. You never want to feel like I'm not stupid, I'm smart and the other third thing is that they have willpower, they have control of their lives, they do things because they decided to do it to tell them. making people feel insecure about their intelligence, making them feel that they are not moral or that they are not good, making them feel that they do things not because they choose to, but because they were forced to do them or because they are not. self-conscious, they hate that they are going to hate you, they are going to resent you, they are going to resist you.

Knowing a few basics about people like this gives you the power to use them as leverage for persuasion. Okay, understand the envy in him. human world and in social networks Envy is simply like a nuclear bomb, our tendency to feel Envy has just exploded to compare ourselves with other people, you have to use that to gain power, there is great power in that, in an advertising sense marketing, virality, what to get other people interested in what other people do, that's how things sell themselves, if you try to tell people what they should buy instead of looking at what other people do.

I want to join that right knowing about these basic qualities. in human nature about how we like to compare ourselves, how we have certain opinions about ourselves, etc., it gives you all this power to take that human nature and use it for whatever purpose you want for good or unfortunately some people use it for bad. Do we have to lie to be successful? And I say this. because when reading some of your works I heard phrases like "you must keep your true intentions hidden in social situations" you say a lot about how to cover yourself up in various ways you talk about showing yourself as an actor that sometimes we need Present yourself as an actor in our lives, so to have true success, I know it's a bit difficult question, but do we have to lie?

See, being a human being means we lie the moment weYou open your mouth and speak. Basically you're not telling the truth. You know what doesn't lie. Corporal lenguage. Non-verbal communication. The way you smile. The look in your eyes. You can't lie about that. But three or four year old children are already learning to elaborate what they say. to mom or dad to get what they want they are very intelligent, they are very strategic, right, they know that if they say that exactly what they want they will not get it, they learn to complain and complain and put a certain tone in their voice and be an actor an animal social as we are actors in life overcome this idea of ​​feeling guilty that's why I'm so sick of us being actors we descended from chimpanzees chimpanzees are subit concepts actors read the literature that they know how to deceive incredibly well and they don't even have language to deceive , so we are actors the moment you go out into the public you don't tell people oh you're fat you're ugly your writing sucks d d d da I don't like what you're wearing you never do that you're an actor when you see your father you act in a certain way when you see a little boy you act a certain way when you see little kitten you have a certain tone in your voice when you deal with your boss the person who pays for your podcast I don't know if there is such a person where you act in a different way you are changing constantly like who you are and how you are Act One moment you're Robert Dairo, the next moment you're I don't know what other actor you are, but you're changing your roles depending on who you're dealing with.

I am so tired of people not recognizing this fact that we are all actors that we are constantly deceiving yes there are differences there are qualities of lying you know I understand that there is Donald Trump lying and there are the lies of the everyday white lies in the ones that I have to say certain things to get ahead Etc there are degrees I understand it and some lies can be very harmful and very counterproductive in the end but the moment you enter the world and the moment you open your mouth you are already in some way an Actor and you are already using forms of deception, why can't we be ourselves?

Because it would irritate people because it would be gr. You know, I don't know about you, but I appreciate the courtesy. I go somewhere and I know someone is being polite. I know they don't necessarily mean it, but it's nice, right, it's kind of smooth, it makes everything more or less smooth if people weren't polite, I'll rate it and like two pieces of metal are constantly hitting each other. It would be so annoying that you would want to commit suicide or you would want to kill people. You would become a killer, you know, social life depends on that kind of fluidity in those interactions, so we would need it to some extent if we were always telling people what we do.

I really thought our world would collapse tomorrow. What about showing our weakness? I have this quote of yours that says that if you are weak and ask for little, you will get little, but if you act strong by making firm and even outrageous demands, you will create the opposite impression - people will think that you are confident and that it must be based on something real, you will earn their respect which in turn will translate into real leverage, well it comes down to certain situations so I don't want you to apply that idea to everything in life and some people make the mistake when they read the 48 Laws of They can think well, I'm going to use that everywhere, no, it applies to certain situations, so let's say you're negotiating and I know I dealt with this myself.

I'm actually a pretty shy person by nature, but I've learned to cultivate the opposite, so if you're negotiating a price for what you want for your time for your services and you don't have a lot of confidence and you ask for a little that's what you're going to do. get because people aren't going to do it they're assuming that you're you're not really up to the task you say okay $20,000 is enough that's what they'll give you but if you raise your price high and say it in the right voice and believe in So, they're going to say wow, that person is confident and if they reject you, that's okay because someone else will give you that price if you set it. your own worth by what you believe about yourself if you think you're worthless if you're not very good at it other people pick up on it while you're talking I was thinking about Adam Newman from Wei's work and this conversation I overheard with him and the founder of SoftBank in the back of a taxi where Adam Newman asks for a billion and then the owner of SoftBank, this very eccentric Chinese and very rich Asian, you know what, Adam?

The only problem with you is that you're not ambitious enough and you write him a check, I think, for five or ten million dollars in the back of this taxi after about 12 minutes of being with him and I always thought about that and I thought , Jesus, what if I started asking? life for so much more If I simply multiplied all these emails I send and requests I make by 10, what would happen to my life over the course of 10 years? Well, yeah, you probably would have gotten a lot more than you did without asking. for that, um, yes, because we are creatures that, as I said before, we look at the appearances of things, look, it's a very, very easy metaphor, here you enter a social situation like a party and you approach someone who is a kind of nervous, insecure and anxious, and I'm not criticizing that because we all have insecurities, I have a lot of them too, but you approach someone like that and it makes you feel a little nervous and insecure, right?, and you're fumbling words and it's a little awkward, it happens the other way around, you approach another person and they are a little safe, they look you in the eyes, you know their voice is strong, their body language is strong, they connect with you, do you believe it?

It brings out that part of you that's like, you might feel intimidated, but it can also bring out your own kind of confidence. I remember being around 50 Cent, who is a very charismatic and confident person to the point of ridiculousness and it was very infectious. I felt like After being around him for a couple of hours, I was with him for several months, it rubbed off on me. We have this kind of viral contagious effects on people, so if you project strength and confidence, you know and understand that it's a little different for women. which is an interesting topic because sometimes projecting that for a woman can be detrimental because people will think that and it's a terrible quality for us that women are judged by a different standard where it will seem like they are one or something, so I understand that there are nuances here and that the game is different for women as it is for people of other ethnicities, you know, so it's not just one way or another, but to the extent that even for the woman you have this air of confidence, you believe in what you are doing, you believe that you are worth it, you project yourself to other people, you don't have to shout and scream, you don't have to demand 10 billion dollars, but if you feel confident if you feel that you are worth this amount of money, it will be projected onto other people's body language, yes, I want to talk about that, you know what you said before?

It's one of the things we can't lie about. Is there? anything you still look for today when you try to read someone's body language, there are certain cues, there are postures or well, you know you have to do it in reading non-verbal communication, it's a different form of intelligence, it's not algorithms , son is not a formula, it is human, it is emotional, it is empathetic, it is a reading without words, it is ATT, tuning into other people, so I tune into people's emotions, with the vibe they give off in a general sense , a Galt is one thing I like to do.

If I had to give it a word I would say anxious or I would have to say outgoing and extroverted or I would have to say impatient or whatever there is an energy that defines them it is one word and that word is not precise but there is a general feeling that I get from a person and then I'm always looking at specific details, it's not like I'm consciously sitting in my head going through a checklist, I just feel certain things and I feel like the eyes are like they're dead, they don't relate to me and you can't put that into words, but you know the feeling, so when someone looks at you but doesn't actually look at you, you know what it feels like, right?

MH and a lot of psychopaths, a lot of narcissists do that, so part of their face pretends to be interested in you, they look into your eyes, but they're not really looking at you, they're thinking about something else. Seeing in you what they can get out of you, they see you as an object, light eyes are hard to lie to, they tell you something now, very skilled actors, they can create some of these impressions, but there is one thing they can't fake. It's the tone of their voice and actors will tell you it's the hardest thing to consciously control, so a person's voice tells you a lot about their confidence levels it tells you a lot about your overall emotional tone about their character about who they are. it's very hard to fake and when he hesitates when it's like stuttering when it's not, you know you can feel something in people's voice and it's very hard to fake and then the smile, the smile tells you hundreds of different things If you know how to read it , there's the authentic smile that I'm not going to fake now, but well, it just lights up the whole face, you know, like if you really feel Joy, you can't, no, you can't forget. your eyes go up your cheeks go up everything connects well fake smiles you know yeah we've all seen the fake one just when the mouth goes up and the rest of the face doesn't bother Stephen I really like you You're really wonderful you know most of the time most smiles are fake but you can do it when you see the genuine smile and you think that's what caused the genuine smile you have to become aware of that and then the body language tells you a lot of things about what someone is like.

When they talk to you and you are standing at a party, is there a body that looks in another direction while they talk to you or that they look in that direction while they talk to you? that means they are not really interested in you, they are not really committed to you, also when you catch people by surprise and they don't have time to put on a fake smile. I often tell people to do this as if there is someone. in your office and you don't know if it's a snake or if it's really your friend, you suspect it could go in any direction, you approach them from the right angle and surprise them, you approach them, they go.

You look at yourself and for a second you detect what we call a microexpression of disdain and then they put on a smile. That microexpression that psychological scientists have studied lasts less than a second, much less than a second. You have to be able to read it, but it reveals if they really like you. or if they're totally fake, they can't fake it, so if you keep going, oh, hi Stephen, I love seeing you, they come, oh, they kind of fake it. then they try to act and you can get clues like that. There are so many ways to read body language.

It is such a fascinating topic. I could talk for hours about it. How important is it? You know you're talking about colleagues and team members. and earlier you said that people are contagious, how important do you think it is for the success of our lives? I paused because success means it's personal, it's professional to surround yourself with the right group of people and be intentional about it. which is very important, I have a chapter, excuse me, on the 48 laws of power over infection and I think it is an experience that many of us have had where you are close to someone who at first glance seems very interesting and they become in your friends, maybe they're very dramatic and they have all these stories to tell and they seem almost a little larger than life and you relate to them and then you become friends and then little by little, little by little, it becomes clear that They're kind of crazy, right, they're always talking about how this person screwed them over, how that person screwed them over, how this boyfriend or girlfriend was so horrible and so disgusting, and you start to realize that this is true or maybe it's there where the professional that they the problem, but now they're your friends and now you're emotionally attached to them and now they have room to play all these kinds of games with you and all their drama starts to infect you and it's like, damn, I want to get it. away from this person but I can't, they have infected you with their negative energy and it gets under your skin, so you have to avoid people like that.

You have to read before you get involved with them that they are a drama queen or a drama king. because there are so many men out there that have this quality, you have to see that they are, that they make themselves the victim of everyone else, but in reality they bring it on themselves, some people are really unlucky, bad things have happened to them. and it's not his fault. I'm never saying it's a misconception about that chapter that you should avoid everyone who is unlucky. There are people and many people out there whose circumstances have made them who you know.

What is happening is not your fault, but there are other people. You have to recognize that the bad things that happened to them are things that they caused because they have this infectious power. It comes from a deep insecurity. You don't want them in your life, being surrounded by insecure people. It will make you feel insecure to be around confident people who know what they are doing, who get their act together, who are trying to do things and achieve things because there are so many people who talk and talk and talk but never do anything. be surrounded by people who do things who do things who have made a business who have made this orthe other their objective because they will infect you with their positive energy Frenemies yes, we all have Frenemies and how we detect the enemies enemies, hopefully, not all of us have them, but in the laws of human nature and in several of my books I talk about the The phenomenon of envy, which is a very, very powerful human trait, has very ancient roots.

Roots, we know. In hunter-gatherer societies thousands of years ago, envy was a real problem and that is why they created all kinds of rituals to avoid envy, where the moment someone in a tribe received a gift, they had to give it to other members so that they would not face envy. because when facing Envy you could be killed for it, so you learned all these rituals and we have noticed that chimpanzees feel Envy. You give it to one of the top chimpanzees because they are a very hierarchical grape and also all the other chimpanzees are very eager. that grape too and they feel envy, etc., etc., so it's an extremely human emotion, but we don't realize that the people most likely to feel envy, first of all, we all feel envy, we all compare ourselves to others.

I feel it all the time right now. I envy Ryan Holiday because he's, you know, 30 years younger. He has sold so many books. You know he has all these cool things. I know what envy is like. Sorry, we all feel small degrees of Envy, but there are people, I call it Passive Envy but Active Envy means people act on it, do something to hurt you, sabotage you and somehow Enemy enemies are the classic scenario, so What someone who is envious of you ends up becoming friends with you and consciously may not even realize that they think well.

I would like them to like me, but unconsciously they feel envy. They think you have success that you don't necessarily deserve. That you have what they want. They become your friends and you love them. Etc Etc and then here you start to notice all kinds of behavior that is very ugly and that you did not expect because you are your friend, they start saying comments that bother you and that make you feel insecure, they take things away from you. You, they act in a hurtful way, but since they are your friends, your first instinct is to blame yourself, well, maybe it's my fault they did this, maybe I'm to blame for what they say, etc., etc. .

ET, so I think behind the frines phenomenon is this phenomenon of envy where the person secretly wants what you have and they are becoming your friends so they can hurt you and the best thing you can do is recognize that and a common sign of a friend of someone who is befriending you out of envy is that they are in a hurry to be your friend normally we like to take things a little slow we just don't let anyone into our lives we like to examine them a little beforehand right, no We trust everyone, but the person who is envious is like I love you, you're fantastic, I want to be your friend, we have to go out, let's go out to dinner the next night, they're in a hurry, that's a sign. that something else is happening because that is not natural.

What happens when friends become enemies? Because sometimes through the process of changing the US, yeah, you can inspire that envy, yeah, like your status changes, we've all had to deal with it, I've had to deal with it. with that you are also successful and you come from an environment where you were not as successful and your friends are still there and they envy you and they are not very nice to you and you know it is not good quality and I have understood quality I understand where it comes from and I have written about It's in human nature where we're all aware of this thing we call sha Freud Shan Freud means that you enjoy other people's pain, then you hear that a friend didn't get the job he wanted and you say, "Oh, I'm sorry, but in deep down you're happy, you know?" We all go through it, the opposite is mitfa, it is an expression found on a coin, which means you feel joy for other people.

I like to try to cultivate some of the higher qualities in life, so if something good happens to someone, the first thing I do is I may feel a pang of envy, but then I say, that's great for them. Actually, I'm very happy, I'm excited. I share your joy at what has happened, true, but it is not natural, so when someone you know and have known for a long time has been successful in life the first thing is that they did not deserve it they are like Che , your way of achieving it is okay, like we talked at the beginning, you face that ugly emotion yourself and say that's not what I want to be and you're going to make me feel the opposite I'm going to make me feel happy because your success is not natural and most people don't go through that and I know this personally from people I knew before I had any success in life are the ones who give me the least amount of praise for my books, first of all they never read them they are very sparing with what they say, they have a tight expression on their face.

While people I have never met in my life give me all kinds of praise, why is it that because they are envious they are angry? Are you threatening them because they look like you because they knew you and you are where? you're from where they were from so you're even more threatening, you're holding up a mirror to them in a way that makes them feel even more uncomfortable, well they won't feel that way so what people will go through. in that sense it is and that's how I think about it oh Robert sold himself he wrote a book that's evil that's unpleasant that manipulator I didn't think he was like that I thought he was a good person oh I don't like this book it's ugly they'll go through that process they will still be my friends because we have had years and years together it is very very common at least I know they do it with my books even though my later books are not Like the 48 Laws of Power, they still have in the essence that this type who used to be so sweet and kind with these nasty, evil manipulative Mellan books he sold what is the heart of the 48 Laws of Power that some people were triggered by what was what was the most triggering concept or the most controversial concept or the concept that people just had a superficial allergic reaction to the place without even reading it, they just didn't, yeah, they read the back of the book.

They read the names of the laws and say oh, that's ugly and many times they've had to deal with ugly people in their lives and that's when I see the real disgusted reaction, I get it, they had to do it. I deal with someone who is very manipulative and they find it disgusting, of course, when I have a rational discussion with them and calm their emotional reaction. I told him, look, if you had the 48 Laws of Power before this person

manipulate

d you, they would never have been made. able to manipulate you, that book is the best defense you could have in your life.

It's like a shield. Once you've read it, you know all the tricks people are playing on you, right? They know they're posing as a friend and acting like a spy, right, they're hiding their intentions, you know, etc, etc., they're showing you all these tricks, okay, but that's when they calm down and can say that, but Not all of us have the idea that we are not angels. the best intentions in life I'm writing a manual they think about how to manipulate how to deceive how to scam people it triggers people a lot Many people who have suffered in life who have had a lot of pain understand that there is irony in the book The Book, they don't read it the same way, they read it knowing that yes, this has happened to me, that's how people are.

I'm fine with that, I'm fine with that and I have to say, I don't know if this will turn out badly, but a lot of the readers who responded most positively to the 48 Laws of Power from the beginning were African-Americans, like 50 people in the hip business. hop, etc., they didn't. They have some illusion about human nature about how good we are because they have seen that side throughout their lives. 50 said that when he got into the record business he was surprised at how political people were, how manipulative they were, so they weren't having that same reaction, they weren't having the guilty reaction like, oh, I don't want to read about that, do you? why do we have to argue?

That's not it, it's not positive, it's not helpful, I think a lot of what it triggered. People, it's funny because I was talking to a CIA agent recently and at the end of our conversation he said something to me: "You know, one of the things I've learned from being in the CIA is that I don't believe in that anymore." Equality is possible and he said equality, equality, yes, because that's not the way the human world works and we all pretend that we want equality, we all pretend that we want everyone to be equal, but if you look at every game we play, yes We're politicians or we're business people or whatever, it's about hierarchies and power and getting ahead, even the pure nature of being a politician is campaigning to get to a position of objective power and I want to know what you think about that. .

Well, I mean there is some truth to this in the sense that there is something in our nature that is hierarchical and that has deep roots in us, but I believe in a form of equality and that is that everyone, from birth, has the possibility of following the path. those I talk about in Mastery for being great for fulfilling their Destiny for being the unique individual they are at birth, so everyone is born with a DNA that will never be replicated in the past or in the future, there is a uniqueness in each person. and there is a uniqueness in your parents, in your background, in your early years, and that uniqueness is a seed that if you cultivate it and use it and know your purpose and extract it to obtain power in Mastery I interviewed one of the teachers who I interviewed was a woman named Tempo Grandon who was born with severe autism at the age of two she was about to be admitted to a hospital for the rest of her life she was almost like in a walking coma for some reason they got her a teacher to teach her taught language and she started to emerge a little bit and then slowly blossomed and realized that it was something common for many autistic people that she had an incredible connection with animals. of autistic people has that he couldn't connect with people, they were so sneaky and deceitful that he didn't know how to deal with them, but the animals gave him a horse, a dog, a cow, he felt like he was one of them and he ended up following that path and becoming a high-level animal behavior scientist who was born with autism on the verge of being admitted to a hospital and achieved incredible success in life as a scientist.

I honestly believe it and I'm not pretending. Honestly, I believe that everyone has that potential, but the results are not equal, there is a lot of physical education, most people do not follow that path, but I believe that everyone has that potential, is that potential as objective greatness or is it our own subjective greatness. can become the best version of Steven or do you think that everyone could become great in the context that you know the best in the world like you know Steve Jobs or not, they are not, you do not have to be the best in the world , I mean, when Mastery came out we were, the New York Times wanted to do a story about my house in the home section, well, why, but it's okay, I never get advertising from the mainstream media, so it's okay.

I had to quickly upgrade my house because they were going to come with photo photographers and we hired a guy to do the tiles on my patio, which look like hell, and I told people this guy was a real Master, he was not So. making six figures, no one would ever write an article about him, he'll die and no one will ever know, but I could see in the quiet quality and how well he understood it and the care he put into it and how much he enjoyed it, you know? creating a beautiful effect with tiles that he was a master, you don't have to be the best ever, you don't have to be famous and successful there are degrees of this there are degrees of it some people are just good parents they are very sociable they are very empathetic and maybe They're not going to become extremely successful finance people, but they are very good at raising their children and they put a lot of effort and care into it, that's fantastic, you don't have to be famous, you don't have to be Steve Jobs, there are right levels. , but the feeling of this was what I was destined to achieve.

I achieve it and I follow it and I am happy with what I do. I feel fulfilled with my work and I can continue doing it. I take it seriously. It matters to me. I think anyone can have that level. power in your life I think I struggle with that, if I'm honest, yes on a personal level I struggle with enough is enough and I also think I've grown up in the generation where there are so many comparisons everywhere we look when you open our phones and Instagram that we always They make you believe that you haven't reached that point yet.

Now I've struggled with the idea that maybe that's a good thing because it drives you forward, it's that pressure that you described that creates that urgency, that desperation, so maybe I should never believe that I'm already there, but I also wonder if I'm going to postpone happiness for the future because I think it's behind some kind of achievement or job title or, you know, success in my life and you know, when I hear about that Tyler, I go to that person who was tying your um patio. I'm very jealous because they sound contempt with much less than what would make me contempt which is the correct answer is to be the happy Tyler who is tiling the patio or will it be the um impatient SteveJobs the one who strives to have the personal computer well it depends on who you are we are all individuals we all have our unique energies it is the fact that you get involved, you love it, you are emotionally connected to it that gives you a sense of satisfaction that you don't you're looking over your shoulder oh I could be doing this instead, I'm fine with that, I don't have to be the Steve Jobs who is continually dissatisfied with who has problems and who. you always have to have more.

I'm not against that either. I don't know why we have to be so critical if people follow the path and are in love with what they do and have a genuine connection to it. I'm not going to judge them because they're not famous or because they're not trying to be the greatest, the Michael Jordan of tying or whatever. Etc. I think it's okay and you're not happy. You want to crush it. You want to have the number one podcast, that's it. that's also okay, why can't we make you aware of that kind of diversity in our world?

Most importantly for both those types of people and people who have that type of insatiable sense of ambition, but also people who despise whatever they are doing in their lives, from what I had there, they both love what they are doing. and they both have those core components that you described earlier, like they both feel the challenge in their work. Still, and that challenge might be fine. I'm going to make a bigger yard today or I might be launching a billion dollar business for someone else tomorrow and it's really about those interesting components of a similar challenge that means purpose, yeah, yeah. because what you don't want is you don't want to be 50 and 60, she's facing death, you know, because your days are numbered, who knows how long you're going to live and you're going to go, damn it.

I could have done something with my life when I was a child I had these dreams I thought I was going to be very good at it and I never realized I went down these other paths I was lost I thought I was happy but but I never really fulfilled any of those dreams or fantasies of childhood. You know, it's a terrible, terrible feeling and I want people to avoid it, as long as it's something that appeals to you and it's connected to that child that you were, it's something that you love and that you can create these challenges for yourself is death a motivating for you well it certainly is now you know because my days are literally numbered you get to a certain age and you know you can literally count the numbers of days that could be left you and I almost died several years ago with my stroke we were so close to dying, you know I was driving my car and if my wife hadn't suddenly seen something, I wouldn't be talking to you here right now either, I would have crashed and died or had brain damage so bad I would be a vegetable, so I know about death.

I feel it in my body every day when I wake up. I do my morning meditation. I am a place where there is a practice that I have. my meditation where this could be my last thought I could die within 10 seconds what do I want in my head in those last few seconds do I want to have some small insignificant thought about someone who did this or said that or do I want to have something bigger in my head. I am constantly aware of my mortality and with the book I am writing it is always on my mind because, frankly, I am aware that I could die before finishing the book, so now I have 2 thirds written if I die tomorrow the book can be published and okay, I can live with that, but you know, I'm in a rush to finish it because I know it could happen at any moment, you know, and it almost did. for me, so I'm continually aware of it, but not in a bad way, in a sense, it gives meaning to my life, it makes me aware of how valuable each moment is and how things are that everyone I see in my life. window I see people doing things that I can no longer do and I think that they take everything for granted, they walk without realizing their mortality of how their body could decompose on any given day.

Now I'm aware of it, so I'm not going to be envious because my mind is on a different level. I am aware of the ephemeral nature of life and that makes everything beautiful to me. It makes me appreciate everything around me. I don't want to be too sacred. This is because it could come out that way because there is a dark side to it and definitely in my dreams and in my thoughts I have a lot of that Darkness, but I think that the awareness of death is something beautiful, beautiful, it is, it is, it is. makes everything intense and makes everything shine with that awareness if you were my age i just turned 31 wow you're a kid jesus christ man i hate you i was 31 i was the biggest loser that would be amazing if I could transplant that. the head-to-my-head awareness that you have of the life you've lived, but also of that stroke incident and the perspective on your mortality that it gave you and the ephemerality of life that it showed you, how do you think I would do it? ? live my life differently, how would you have lived your life differently when you were 31? uh you know, I make sure I never do that exercise because I believe in something called aor Fati, which means love your destiny, everything happened for a purpose.

I wouldn't have done anything differently if I had to go back because everything led me to the right things, so if I had been in a rush when I was 22 to be successful as a writer, I would never have been able to write the books. that I wrote everything would have gone awry who knows where it would have ended. I'm very, very happy that I don't regret anything, but if you're young, what often happens is that your life is the pattern of your life, if you think of it as a fabric, it's just like for you it's just like a third weave, for me it's like a third weave, so I can see all these patterns that you can't see in your life, but at your stage you know you tend to I think I have all this time ahead of me I'm very young I can do this I can travel here I can do this business and that business ET Etc.

You don't feel that sense of urgency. You don't realize that tomorrow you could get hit by a car, tomorrow you could suddenly be diagnosed with cancer. People are dying now in their 30s and 40s. Unfortunately I read that when you get older, a bad habit is that you start reading the obituary pages. I don't. I don't know why, um, and you start reading about people, a lot of people who are in their 40s and 50s are dying today for various reasons, it can happen and what it makes you say, "I have limited time." I wanted to accomplish this thing I've been putting off, okay, you wrote your book, maybe there's something else you've always wanted to do but never did and you're putting it off, it has a sense of urgency.

The feeling that your time is relatively short is a good thing, the other thing is that, like I said, it makes everything a little more intense, a little brighter, is the word I like to use, so I used to swim three days a week and I swam long distances and I loved it, it was my best therapy. I just loved getting out of my head and just being in the water, okay, but I never appreciated it until now that I can't do it, so I want you to appreciate it. go to the gym be healthy be able to do these things don't look at it like I take it for granted and it bothers me that young people take everything for granted they think I'm privileged because I have this penny of success when you're young you have all those privileges you have your health you have Other things that can be taken away from you Don't take for granted these things in your life that you have that aren't going to last forever Think in those terms and think about how intense everything around you becomes when you have that mindset.

One of the things that I think I worry about and take for granted is my romantic relationship with my partner and you know, hearing your story of being in that. car that day it's literally evident that your romantic partner can save your life, he did and um, yeah, you know we've been together for a while, I'm not going to say how many years because she doesn't like to hear that because um So you know that We have a deep and rich past and it's a wonderful thing and she saved my life and she saved someone's life, man, it really is important, it really means a lot of changes in things and in my book that I'm writing now.

I wrote a chapter about love, which is something I never wrote about, obviously, I wrote about seduction, etc., but I never wrote about love and I wrote about the incredible, sublime quality you can have when you allow yourself to go deeper. . and deeper and deeper into that falling process where you get rid of your ego, you get rid of your defenses, you get rid of all the resistance and you just let yourself fall, fall, fall, fall and you connect with someone on that level. deeper and deeper. like I say, it's a chapter about the sublime because it's a very sublime experience and the reason I wrote it is because I feel like people are missing out on it now because they don't want to be vulnerable, they don't want to. any pain and falling in love with another person and letting go of your defenses opens you up to pain and we just want, we don't want to experience that we want to be invulnerable and it's like cutting off all the richest experiences in life, etc.

I wrote that chapter addressing that and I said: let go of your defenses, let go of your resistance, let yourself go through that process of falling, let yourself feel what it feels like to have your ego dissolved in the presence of another person and worry more about them than about yourself. . Worry about yourself, you mentioned a second ago. Dark thoughts and dark dreams. We all have dark thoughts. Our dark thoughts are our own. How do you deal with dark thoughts? What are those dark thoughts you can share? Well, you know. in my dreams I'll be doing all kinds of weird things uh a lot of times there will be guilt like I really murdered that person are the police actually after me damn what's going to happen what's going to happen to my reputation? then I wake up, you know, then all that kind of stuff happens, but also doubts about me and the depression and about my whole life.

I've dealt with feelings of not being very worthy, like even doubting my success, doubting that my job works. Is it good to doubt that I deserve it? I had many periods in my life where I wasn't successful and, um, it was ingrained in me that I could do better. I could do better. I could do better. I'm not a good parent to myself. I was very hard on myself and many of my thoughts are dark. I'm still very hard on myself and it's like you know the other dark thoughts I have are that I can't do the things I used to be able to do if life is even worth living when you don't like to walk when you can't swim when you can't go out on a bike when you can't travel normally, right?

Really worth it? You know, maybe death wouldn't be so bad compared to that. I go through it and then I go through, yes, I talk myself out of it over and over again, but my dark thoughts are about myself and my doubts and the state of my body as it is right now something like this if I told you I had those same doubts about you know if it was if we were identical in every way and I said Robert, I have a lot of doubts about how I can' I don't go out on my bike I can't do the things I used to do I wonder if life is worth living and I asked you for advice I said I don't know what to do with the self-doubt I have about these books I've written and what would you say to me?

Well, I would say that there are many people that we talk about a lot in life, who in their own way say that they have achieved this and that and that they never have. anything, you have a book that you can be very proud of, that you can die tomorrow and it's like a moment that we will live forever and you have achieved this. You achieved this with your podcast, you have actually done things, so focus on that , focus on the fact that so many people never get out of bed and get to anything, so you've built things that you've accomplished, focus on that and then on your body, well, you know when you're dead, everything's gone.

Gone, who knows how much is on the other side, but just think about the madness of what it means to be alive and that's another chapter in my new book. The odds against you, Stephen, of ever being born are absolutely crazy and I describe those odds in the book and go from the first cells that, from when life formed a planet Earth to the evolution that led us to sit here, is amazing so to be alive is an incredibly amazing thing and you have to think about that and you have to think about just seeing the sky just being aware of it is an amazing thing so I often think about people who are suicidal there are a lot of people so in life particularly today and I know this because I went through that period most strongly in my late 30s as I contemplated the lack of success in my life, you know, and what kept me going was that I still believe that I could achieve something so Even in my darkest moments I managed to get out, but then I think about people who maybe don't have that energy and who are sinking into that hole and I know from my own experience that hearing someone tell you what life is like is incredibly A surprising fact not It will have no effect on them because it doesn't connect them emotionally and I often think how I could connect emotionally with them, how I could make it clear to them that there is something there worth preserving.

I don't have the answer here today, but I think about it all the time, how would I deal with someone who is suicidal and people write to me like that and we've had relatives in thosesituations before, so that's something. I think a lot about it being a difficult question to answer what you have to say to that person in that situation to make them believe in the sublime to make them believe that there is a life worth living. I wonder if that's what you maybe need. What you have to do is get them to take the first step to create evidence for themselves in some way, whatever that small first step is.

I think it's great. I think it's perfect. That's exactly what they have to do. They have to come to realization themselves and through some action that you ask them to do, which gives them a little faith in themselves, then the spiral can turn, so I think you're right, it has to come from them and it has Getting over something that everyone really talks about isn't going to help them. What that is is something I'd like to think about and it depends on the individual, but I think that's the way to do it. Are you writing this book at the time called the Sublime Right?

Are you writing that book because of the situation that you found yourself in? after having Str and going through that journey of saying why life is worth living and pursuing it? search for the sublime that we all have inherently good to be honest about 20 years ago I had the idea for the book I read a book on the subject and I got excited because they were explaining it as it is a kind of experience that is very difficult to verbalize, that is more beyond what we normally experience and I got really excited about the idea and I planned to write that book and then after the war, that was going to be my fourth book and my agent was getting ready to sell it. and then I got hooked on 50 Cent and I did that book instead and I put it on the back burner and then Mastery came up and I got hooked under that and all of a sudden, it kind of fell to the side and then, first, in human nature . the entire last chapter of 50 Cent's book is about the Sublime, it's about death and what 15 and facing it, then the last chapter on human nature is about the sublime, it's about death and mortality and the irony is that two and a half months later when I finished that chapter of the book, I almost died, but what I had originally planned was to go to the goby desert and walk through the goby desert.

I was going to swim with Wales, you know, literally, Wales in New Zealand. I was going to go to Tierra del Fuo, I was going to have all these sublime experiences and write about them and now I can't do any of that right, all I can do is sit in my little room at home at my desk. and I write the book, it's all in my head, the book is much better for it, so it has changed. I can't go to the GOI desert. I can't swim well or I'll drown. I can't go to Tiara Del fuo.

I can only sit in my office, watch the birds, read the books I'm reading, and write the book with other people in mind and what's going on in the world, their lives, and my limitations. Ironically, the book has gotten better because I had to go through this experience but almost dying it was ringing bells in my head okay it's time to write that book you're not putting it off any longer and it has forced you to find the sublime in everyday life. obviously I mean, I'm writing a chapter right now on what I call deont, which is an ancient Greek concept that we're all born with as a Guardian Spirit, right, I know it sounds very mystical, but a lot of contemporary psychologists have done it.

Written about the phenomena of the day, the idea that you have a second self, a kind of higher self that somehow guides you and has a lot to do with some of the things we've talked about, purpose, etc., and I have to think about it. I have to think about it in terms of my own life. I have to think if there is something else inside me that is communicating to me. What does that mean? How does that connect to other ideas about the Universe? I can read books about it. It's a very, very exciting process that keeps me alive right now, and then, you know, I write a chapter about animals and what's sublime about interspecies communication and now I can look at my cat.

I don't look at my cat or not. I looked at birds the same way I did before I wrote that chapter, so that is changing me and elevating me out of the type of people who have strokes, we all have to go through terrible illnesses, unfortunately all of us, to unless we die from an accident. cancer, etc. Strokes, the first thing that happens is a terrible depression, suddenly losing your body and what you can do, so this has kept me out of that depression. I should say that you said that all your books have focused on different themes and that is very much the case, sometimes there are three lines between the different books, but they are all very focused on a variety of different themes, if there is a message that Gather all your work, if this were your last day.

On Earth, what would be the message you would want to leave the world with? Wow, that's a very good question. Many of my books have to do with the reality of our life and what not, not with what we want to believe, not with our false ideas about it, not our illusions, etc., but how life really is, this is the human animal, this is how they behave, this is what will seduce them, this will was what will discourage them, this is how strategies will give us what we want. you want in life, this is how you can master your subject, not what people tell you about the teacher, where you can take a drug, where you can make your way to mastery, this is the truth, this is reality, so every book, the end line is like this it really is the world is not ugly it is not beautiful it just is and it is great to just relate to the world as it is to see things as they are it is liberating and in some ways it is a beautiful thing just connect with reality and not be within your desires about why people can't be more like this why can't someone tell me this why can't they give me this why can't I be successful blah blah blah blah, get rid of your illusions and just looking at what life is like, I guess that would be the complete line of all my books.

Do you see life as some kind of game? Is that a healthier way to look at life as a game where we need to learn the rules and then play the game versus fighting against the injustice of the rules of the game, yes it's all a game definitely there was a great man from the left named Saul Alinsky who wrote a book called Rules. For the radicals, he was a union organizing strategist and he hated today's world with all its virtual signs and everything he said, if you want to change life, if you believe there is injustice, you have to be a strategist, it is war. you have to organize yourself, you have to understand the rules that will lead to real change in this world and every time you get into the realm of rules and strategy it's like a game, you know, and yeah, I think I believe in people with all his moralistic ideas. who think that just because they think something is right they will get what they want they are just living in it fools you have to strategize if you don't you are just lying you are just pretending that you are just virtue signaling you want people to see you as a holy shit if you're not willing to get your hands dirty and get organized and say I've got to take this A B C D I've got to figure out the process to get there, then y'all What we're doing is just playing a game of appearances instead of the actual game of making the things in life, what's the opposite of that strategy you're talking about?

So I'm trying to figure out what the average person is who currently doesn't do it. strategizing in your life, what are you doing right? You already know everyone. I guess you could say that everyone has a strategy, but their strategies are extremely ineffective. Their strategies are full of illusions, so human beings have to strategize because they wake up in the morning and leave. I have to prepare breakfast, you have to strategize how you are going to cook, what you are going to prepare, what you are going to do during the day and what you are going to wear.

You know he's human, he's human. The nature of it is just that people do it very, very badly and they do it badly because they are very emotional. Now I'm not against emotions and emotions play a very important role and I'm writing a lot about it in my new book, but the ability to do things you have to be in control of your emotions you have to take a step back and you have you leave I'm not going to react this person is pressuring me he's saying these things my natural tendency is to react get me to back away and bite no, I'm going to take a step back and I'm going to go, what will make them shut up, what will make them get out of me life, what will make me get rid of them, what will I defeat them if they are an adversary, okay, I made that decision not to react to get excited, now I have to think that if I do this, they are going to react this way, but If I surprise them with this angle, they won't know what to do and then they will react in a different way and I will be in control of the situation.

I make a strategy. I go through a process of playing possibilities here and that is being a strategist. The opposite is a book that I wanted to write after seduction, which is a book about human stupidity, not being strategic is being stupid and PE, stupid and stupid people create more damage in this life than anyone else with their bad strategies, their bad wars bad things that lead people to their bad politics, etc., so that's the opposite of strategic stupidity. I also heard there that the emotionally driven type of emotion does not allow you to have effective strategies because you will get trapped. in itself, you will get personal things, personal things and yes, and things that probably don't matter, that ability to improve yourself, although I think we all want to master that.

I would love to master the ability to excel in all situations at all times. well you can when you're younger it's harder because because you have your hormones you have all that energy you have all that adrenaline it's harder getting older it gets a little easier do you have an A system that you use just to get away from the excitement sometimes Well, I'm not always good at that, so I've learned not to react emotionally when people say something that I think is going to be triggering. I just don't do anything, I go into my zen mode. oh, it's just life, it's just words, it's just words, it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean anything to me, I'm neutral, it doesn't affect me, I'm in my Citadel, goodbye, it's okay, it's okay if I get angry and write that email. which I still do.

I don't send it. I put it in my scratch box. I look at it weekly. What was I thinking? I'm glad you didn't send it. You know that you delay your reactions, but above all I have trained myself and I must say that my meditation practice has helped me not to react when people say things that are so annoying that they bother me. I'm just saying it's them, it's not me, they're another human being, they have a bad idea. I don't care, it's not my bad idea, it's their life, as you know, you're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company and last month I had the opportunity to sit down with Kristen Holmes, she's VP of Performance at woop . and I learned a lot from our conversation about circadian rhythms and things like sleep studies show that for every 45 minutes of sleep debt you accumulate, your ability to make decisions will decrease by up to 10% and when you sleep chronically poorly I'll only be a fraction of the person the fraction of the boss partner friend manager that you can be, that's why I'm obsessed with whoop, which not only tracks you but trains you on how to sleep better so you can give your best in everything you choose to do if You're not convinced that you can try whoop 30 days completely risk-free and with no commitment just by joining.

CEO of whoop.com joining. CEO of woop.com and tell me how it goes, if you don't like it, no obligation, join. The CEO of woop.com earlier mentioned the opposite of strategy with stupidity, so let's talk politics. It's a really interesting time in politics right now. I'm really obsessed with us, politics in particular, because here it's more like a reality show than um. in the UK it's pretty boring, it's very boring there, I have to admit this year Trump is running for re-election against Biden, the country seems to be very divided for a number of different reasons, I feel like I don't know, I just feel like it's more divided than never.

I feel like the left has moved further to the left than ever to the point where I struggled to resonate with that side and still don't resonate with the right so I feel a little stuck, what? Do you think about everything that's going on and how your type of work works based on what's going on and everything else? Well, we all have prejudices and, um, I come more from the liberal side, from the left side, uh, I was actually rather extreme when I was younger, so I have that prejudice, um, so I'm not really going to be objective, so Let's put that aside, you know, I have my emotional reactions triggered by what I see, but um, I'm very worried. about the general Spirit, the general Zeitgeist, so I worked as um, I know this is going to sound like I'm going on a tangent, but bear with me, I was on the board of directors of a publicly traded company, American Apparel, and they brought me in over there. because I was friends with the CEO, but he thought of me as a strategist because he loved the 48 Laws of Power and I started to see Ed that theyThings were going downhill and in a way I was clear what the problem was.

Our demographic was basically young women between 18 and 24 years old. It's a very difficult demographic to deal with because their tastes change very quickly, they're very viral, etc., so what worked at first with American Apparel suddenly became a cliché. true and it wasn't going to translate well to a new generation that ended up being Generation Z, so I had the idea that we needed to have these Retreats, these annual things where we step away from the day-to-day business. and we think about the brand where we are going how we are going to adapt we are not going to change it but we are going to adapt etc etc I presented it to the CEO no, we don't need anyah what I came What ended was that the reason why the companies are such awfully big companies, why they suck, why they never succeed, why they are so fucking annoying, it's because they're always dealing with the quarterly report, at least for publicly traded companies, right?

They have a long-term view because they can't afford it, they have to deal with what Wall Street is going to say about that quarterly report and you know what investors are, how they're going to react to sit there and take a step. Go back and think where you will be in a year or two, we may not even exist in a year or two so forget it, well politics is the same, you have to win the elections you face every two years. Every four years you don't have the luxury of thinking about the bigger picture and that's what we're suffering from right now because if you look at the political situation in America, no one has loyalty to anything, so in my time, when I grew up. you were a democrat, you were a republican and you had some kind of roots and you believed in that because well, the democratic party was for the working class, we were for the unions, we were for the common guy, the little guy, the mentality of FDR, even to a certain extent spot.

Kennedy and Johnson, the Republicans, we were for big business, for lower taxes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you had a sense of connection to that, now people have no connection. with no party in particular, which is fine, no, no. but what that means is that it's so volatile that someone will vote for Obama, then they'll vote for Trump, then they'll vote for Biden, and then they'll vote for Trump again and there are a lot of people in that situation who don't have roots. They are not connected to anything and it is not the fault of the people, it is the fault of our politics.

They are not creating a sense of what it means to be an American. What is it? Can you tell us a story? A myth about what it means to be American. in 2024 that will connect us and give us a sense of what is beautiful about our country because there are beautiful things in it, it is possible, it is very possible to create that kind of vision if you can step back and think about the long term, okay, Maybe it's hard to do that for America, but what does it mean for the damn Democratic Party? What does it mean to be a democrat?

What does it mean to be now? Being a Republican simply means being a lapdog for Donald. Trump must believe everything he does, but the Democrats have their own problems, their own problems, don't they? You cannot have a party that is against everything. What are you for? I often tell people that I'm sick of hearing what you hate. I'm sick of hearing what you're against, I'm sick of hearing what you complain about, tell me what you want, tell me what you're for, tell me your vision of what a great country would be like, but they can't. I can't do that because they're just in this bubble of what I hate, what I'm against, what I'm trying to protect, etc., so there has to be a politician who emerges at some point who has a vision that doesn't be the same. only a demagogue who is not just a charismatic who takes care of himself can connect the dots who can say this is what it means to be in this party this is our vision this is what connects this is the glue yeah, they're going to be small separate parts, okay, but we are the party of the working class, right, we are the party that is going to protect people, protect them, make their lives easier or we are the party of business, etc., etc.

I don't mind. what it is, but it creates a vision, a sense of who you are, of what connects, hitting people in the heart, in their, you see that Trump is successful because he has a visceral emotional effect on people and he is very good at That, Democrats cannot learn. which is always a long list of let's do a b c d and e let's hit the numbers let's reduce inflation let's create this many jobs Etc., it's all in the head it's not here, you have to create, you have to connect viscerally emotionally with people, you have to create a myth that connects people even within their small scattered niches and it is possible because believing it is impossible goes against the grain of History, someone will do it. emerges, I could be dead when it happens, who will go through that some process, because otherwise everything will fall apart, Robert, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, oh, I don't remember , no, I did not do it. get ready, okay, I'm sure, I'm sure you'll come up with something about the sublime, maybe I don't know, we'll see.

The question for you is fine and you can't say anything if you could change one. thing from your last 10 years what would it be and why good, I would have done it, I would have avoided my stroke, I would have realized that I was burning myself out writing the law of human nature, I would have taken it slower, I would have done it. I realized that my body has limits and I would have been kinder to myself and not gotten UC. That book was very stressful and very difficult. I would have taken it slower. I would have gone at a different pace and wouldn't have done it.

I've had my stroke and would be much happier. Do you think you could have prevented your stoke? Yeah, definitely, I mean, it was a weird set of circumstances, but the stress of writing about human nature got me down and then I already had high blood pressure and then I took a trip to New York where I forgot my blood pressure medication and then I was walking in a park and a wasp stung me here and 5 days later this whole area became swollen and red. I was itchy, I couldn't stand it, I went to the doctor and they basically put me on a steroid that sent my blood pressure through the roof and then when I had the stroke my blood clot was exactly where the wasp sting was on my neck, like this that if I hadn't worn out if I hadn't forgotten my blood pressure medication if I hadn't if that doctor hadn't prescribed me that nasty pronono if I had been more careful like that I probably wouldn't have done it I had a stroke, can you forgive? that sequence of events and the people involved?

If I have to do it. I forgave the wasp. You know, maybe that wasp died because of me, because I don't know if wasps die when they sting you. To the bees, but I forgave you. the WASP um, I passed by that place where the wasp stung me and I gave it my little prayer and said, I'm sorry for your little life, etc., and yes, I've forgiven it, uh, I'm over it. and I've made peace with that, you know what was meant to happen, amorti, it was my destiny and it probably happened for a good reason.

I mean, right now I'm contradicting my answer to that person's question, but that's how life was. because the way I think about it is that I was a little reckless with what I thought I could do and probably if I hadn't had my stroke something worse probably would have happened to me because I didn't realize my physical limits. I probably would have and that's why I'm alive. I have my brain and I'm writing the next book, so it happened for a reason if that bee wasn't there that day. It wasn't that day and I say this because I've been reading some books recently about how throughout human history these little events like Nagasaki where they dropped the bombs and all these little events with a cloud that flew over a butterfly effect all the time. little things about the butterfly effect is there anything about how these small, seemingly insignificant events can have massive consequences?

You're going to make me cry because what if there was a little wind and the wasp wasn't? Come right in my way, yes I know it's horrible, but is there something CU? That's the nature of the world we live in, where little things that we can't predict can determine our lives in enormous ways, can influence our lives in enormous ways. There is something? What can we do about it? No, there's nothing you can do about it, you know, it's Ryan's vacation, we'll talk to you about it, what you can do is the Stoic philosophy, it's how you react mentally, you can't. change the physical circumstances but you can change how you think about it and how you react, Robert, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom, and I'm very, very excited about your next book because if it's anything like your previous books, it's really something. which is worth the wait and nice to listen to, thank you before you start recording, you told me about the process you've been through.

You spent four years writing this next book, Sublime, so far it's been four and a half and it will be another. year and a half, so it will be six years in total, yes, in abundance. It's incredibly inspiring to me. Keep this in mind Stephen, I can't write, so he used to write fast and I can't go. take a walk to clear my head so everything isn't like double takes like it's one and a half times too many I have to write things by hand I have to edit by hand I have to dictate on the computer I have to edit with On the one hand , I have to clear my mind without walking, so everything takes one and a half times longer.

It probably would have been like a four or five year book, but like you said about your cycle, when you tone things down sometimes you enjoy it more. and you make better things, yes, I think you're right and probably slower cooking will make a better book. I can't wait, I hope everyone has your existing books because they are all, as everyone has witnessed today, they are all based on enduring, challenging but important wisdom, each one of them and I think we need more challenging wisdom in our society in these days, well, thank you very much, thank you very much, Robert, you are a real hero, you are welcome, thank you very much.

Very good, thanks stev, thanks for inviting me back, oh.