Post Office inquiry: ex-Fujitsu boss grilled over failure to notice system errors

Or you completely failed in your leadership or staff and below you completely failed to tell him what was going on. Which answer would you prefer? Your

failure

or the

failure

of your staff. This document is dated October 2, 2009. It is written by Gath Jenkins um and titled. Horizon Data Integrity, okay, it's a document that we know you're familiar with as you've dealt with it, as the

inquiry

asked you to look at it and you refer to it on page 13, paragraph 36 of your statement, okay, okay, now this document. had a circulation list that included Susie Kirkham. You mentioned a couple of times that she is someone who when you took on your role, brought to your attention the fact that there were issues that were ongoing in the press regarding CLS on the Integrity of the Horizon

system

okay, that's okay. well and we also know that it is a document that is shared between Fujitsu and the

post

office

.

Right now, this document, um, I'll summarize it nowhere in this document is a mention of software.

errors

,

errors

or defects, it just says things like you turn the

system

off and on again, what happens is very technical in that sense, okay, it doesn't deal with software problems or errors, did you

notice

that when Please read this document after it has been reported to you, so sir, you are right. I only saw this in preparation for the consultation. It appears to be a fairly technical document describing how integrity is ensured in Horizon Online, but I didn't do it. another memory in addition to that, of course, believe me, it does not refer to software errors, now your previous work has been in relation to your systems, do you agree some time ago, but that is what you have done in the past now a big scale?

Systems like Verizon have software bugs, don't they do it right? And in relation to the Horizon system, the restless ones that operated a four-tier line of service, part of those tiers had to do with fixing software bugs, issuing patches that notified the

post

office

. of those mistakes as you went along, do you agree? I agree, right? So why do you think this report from Mr. Jenkins doesn't mention errors? I have no idea, Mr. scene. I think that would be a question for Mr. Jenkins. Okay, let's go to the mismatch error document please, the familiar documents for this query p o l288 38 and can we go to the bottom of page three of that document?

Can we take a look? Thanks, solution. Can we just refer to that? Please now. Look, here it says that there are three possible solutions to apply to the affected branches and then the recommendation is to move forward with solution two. This is now a joint meeting, as you pointed out to Mr Blake, between the post office and Fitsu. Okay, yeah. It is not, as an example, a note from a meeting in a pub after a few drinks. Well, a meeting between two big organisations, one a global brand and the other a well-known UK brand, so let's take a look. in the solutions Solution one alter the figure of the uh Horizon Branch on the counter to show the discrepancy.

V Jitsu would have to manually write an input value to the local branch account. Impact when the branch completes the next trading period they would have a discrepancy which they would have to take into account the risk, this has significant data integrity concerns and could lead to moderation issues with the branch system and could raise questions about how the discrepancy was caused. This solution could have moral implications of the post office changing branch data without informing the branch, okay so we can see what is being said here, let's put it quite crudely, if you don't mind this basically says that one of the possible solutions could be let's settle the branch accounts without telling the branch, I post the master and see if he can get away with it now is that what he expects Fujitsu staff members to even consider this as a option, no, it is not, and try the other way around.

Are you a bit surprised that the post office considers this as a possible option in relation to arranging a branch account for one of their sub postmasters, I would give the same answer, yes, let's move further down the page please, at end of page two, I think it's impact, now let's take a quick look at the impact section, so this is the impact of this branch now the mismatch error that we all know. I described it in previous questions to other witnesses as a submarine error. What I mean by this is that it can affect the branch accounts and it doesn't seem to be obvious to the sub. postmaster or administrator its impact the branch appears to have balanced while in reality they could have a loss or a profit our accounting systems will not be in sync with what is recorded in the branch if it is widely known it could cause a loss of confidence in the Horizon branch system, so this is not good news, do you agree?

I agree, fine and then goes on to say the potential impact on ongoing legal cases where branches are disputing the integrity of horizon data now, given what we know about this document which appears to include a possible solution that, unless If I am very wrong, it would lead to a conspiracy to obtain fake accounts between two large organizations. What this means is that if this gets out, it will ruin legal cases where the branches are properly located. saying that there is a problem with the system, it is better that we not tell you, in other words, that is what has been considered between two important and well-known brands, how did that happen?

Mr. Tate under his direction. I have no idea, Mr. Steam, but it's not what I would expect either. organization to work and Mr. Blake has been asking him question after question and he has been saying well what happened what happened why were matters not taken care of in his office why did he not realize what was happening under his leadership now there is Two responses to this: either you completely failed in your leadership or staff and, underneath, you completely failed to say what was going on. Which response would you prefer your failure or the failure of your staff?

I don't think it's a question of which one I would prefer which one it was. I think from the documents that were given to me, I was reassured by the same people about Horizon, at least some of the same people who were involved in relation to the mismatch error and what was happening, and I think. Fu I Fujitsu Executives and postal executives thank you, thank you, Mr. Blake, yes, it is.