Speaking Freely: Tom Smothers

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speaking

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a weekly conversation about free expression in America I'm Ken Paulson today we're joined by a man who's an inventive comedy with The Smothers Brothers made us laugh and made us think we're delighted to welcome Tom Smothers, it's great to have You, I Can, I enjoyed reading your bio, stating that you were once a big fan of George Gobel.

I saw George Gobel not being 15 years old on the Ed Sullivan Show and I was like, God, look, that's pretty good. I would like to do that. I remember the first routine I saw was losing his bowling ball and explaining it to the police. He reported the theft. They are lost in it. They said to describe it. He said well, it's round, black and with. three holes in it, they said well they made the holes at the top and bottom because well it just went on and on without any real joke and I was like I'd just like to do that and before I knew it I wanted to be a pro I thought it was a monadic monologue and that's what I said, he stands up and gives things, so here's my first impression and Berle Eyes was my first musical import where it seemed sort of neat and between the two. and George Gobel, you know, he played a guitar, he had a very big guitar originally, they took his guitar, we didn't know it, a lot of people didn't know it, but no, it was pretty good now, you and your brother Dickie essentially started as a duo of folklore singing, we start at the top.

At school we sang pop music, the first song we sang was Shaboom and we were watching something. Smith the redhead says some songs and then the Kingston Trio and the Weavers came and one said oh man that's really good, we started singing folk music and they had a story and we started. I started listening to everyone, Judy Collins, and all these people were singing songs. I just picked them up and played with them a bit, then we met as satirists. Where was the television show going? The Common Era continued in 1966-67, so 67 68 69 two and a half seasons, the first interesting season had some problems here, but I said I'd like to have a show that at least had something to make you think and Mason Williams was my kind. as a mentor, I advised him, but he was my conscience in the sense that we looked at sketches and they were empty when we tried to put something in them that would translate into another superior, smarter one, not just a Red Skelton Show that I liked, but with With a little reflection, can you talk a little about the relationship of a sensor with a television program?

They call them program practices and standards that were put in place to eliminate profanity and stuff like that, they and they saw it, but when we started reflecting on what was going on in Vietnam and stuff like that and we threw these pins at them. They didn't have, they didn't know how to handle that because it didn't come up there. Their prevalence of what this thumb war was is bad. for children and all other living beings and I said it's a communist front organization or something they didn't know, so this was 30 years ago. It is my opinion now, in time, when I hear today's freedom of speech in the First Amendment. around like an old rag and waved like a banner to allow anything to be said without any content.

In my mind that is absolutely abused when you talk about M&Ms, yet we say they are rock groups and I see Jack Valenti get up and defend Sony for their violent television games and their gratuitous sex and violence and they say that the freedom of expression receives judgment what this is about. I'm out for the real reason of free speech questioning the government and Jack LaLanne didn't say a word in In fact, we couldn't even get a lawyer to defend us, we had to go to the ACLU the first time I came into contact with them .

I think they are going to hit me, but they were there for us and to take our case to court. Nowadays, I mean every lawyer in the world wouldn't love to have those cases, just like now and everyone is looking to make money from these things, but back then we were alone. I think a lot of people would be surprised at some of the instances that you've faced putting that show together and some of the battles and I guess the words were mind-blowing, that would be something that would make the censors uneasy at At that time mm-hmm, well, Pete Seeger we had him and since we were folk musicians we respected him, I never had any idea that until just before we brought him on the show he was blacklisted because he had no political awareness at the time.

There were 17 or 18 years when Pete Seeger didn't appear anywhere because they believed he was a communist and couldn't appear on network television. Did you break that law? Jim, I'll just invite him. You invited him. Did you have to go to? someone at CBS you know I had creative control look and I asked my guests to say what they would like to sing said I like to sing wait waist deep in the big money answer okay go ahead he's saying the song that the show practices can you I can't do that and that's a song that involves soldiers marching into a river and the fool says March on and let's assume that in 1942 it was a drill training, but it was actually a parallel to the Vietnam War that went up to the waist.

Deeper into this and he wrote the song and it was taken away from him and I made a big fuss about it, it got a lot of press attention and we invited him back and told him what Mr. Seeger would like to sing he said, boy, Stephen , should be my guest and he sang it again, this time they left it because things were changing the point of view, we more or less reflected that counterculture at the time and everyone that was on the show was basically 30 or younger, Mason. Williams was very ethically supportive of me, so my concern now about the First Amendment is this abuse of it.

I don't know if I remember that they invited me to support the first mm-hmm. I said I don't know. I don't know about that because I see I said see that guy what his athlete Howard Stern is First Amendment First Amendment is mostly an oculus I mean, people have said wouldn't you like to have your TV show now? Tommy

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what you could say whatever you want look what's going on I said well that's not exactly true it's that there's an illusion of narcissistic language of focus on the crotch sexuality but not much political satire or dissent in primetime everything's late if Dennis You and Miller have Bill Maher and you have Saturday Night Live and some of these shows, but they're all on the sidelines, there's nothing in prime time, I mean, I think with the last show that said, hey, we don't believe that politics Americans are bad and in Central America or bad in Southeast Asia we do not agree with that, but we did it in an interesting way, political satire is not done in prime time, there are sub-taboo topics that were never discussed, there the program practices. stop happening in the early days of broadcasting, did you see Saturday Night Live's mock debate series, the blood and weeds, yeah that's pretty close, oh it's cool to talk, yeah well let me challenge you a little about your feeling that the First Amendment maybe the mistake applies today when you think about an aspect of your show called Tea with Goldie mm-hmm no, it's not really a political message that obviously hints at the pleasure of drugs, yeah, you know that you wouldn't want to be censored for that, even though it wasn't really an averted attack on the government no, why was it because that lady would apply the First Amendment to protect jokes about illicit drug use, you know what I you have there, quite interesting, uh, it could be that you had some extraordinarily powerful moments in the TV show that never appeared and I'm talking specifically about Harry Belafonte singing a song, don't stop the carnival with new words with new words and then an interesting set , can you talk a little about that?

We had him on the last season of The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour and every year he got a little more irritable, the disagreements became more intense and I became more politicized, I became more of an advocate than I should have been in retrospect, but we had to Belafonte in and he and he wrote a nice piece with the collection of his Calypso songs against the backdrop of the Democratic national convention in Chicago in 1968, so it was incredibly violent. All these things happened while he was singing these songs. in a satirical way and they said Tom, we told you no, you can't have violence on television, so they took it out and put in a cat, a paid commercial ad for Richard Nixon's race for the why would you?

Of course, he wasn't a very easygoing guy, he was pretty well off, he had a pretty good temper and he had fits all the time. They seemed to be effective, if there were early signs in that program that you were going to have problems. Or did it evolve? Did you become more aggressive as time went on? I became more aggressive as the war escalated and we watched Kent State and we watched the protests taking place. We in turn were simply reflecting that, we were not seeing it. and it was not premeditated or it was a fairly spontaneous reflection.

We went back to 1988 and did some shows for CBS and about the sixth show in these one-hour specials, one of the CBS guys said let's pick it up. It got a little controversial and it got a little more edgy, so I said yes, and Dicky, Dick, was doing a presentation and I came out in a bunny suit showing just my face with his big ears and a pink bunny suit, only he is doing that. you're doing it says I'm protesting our policies in Central America, so when a bunny suit doesn't make any sense, neither does our policy in Central America, that seems stupid, he did it, but he said those are policies that will get that biceps, we should get out of Central America, so the big laugh is very funny, so that was the best essay, guys, well, now you have to say it there, but it's up to our elected officials to get us out of Then I said, "Okay, so it was even more fun." They were going to do it right, so you should know that that kind of entertainment is still not seen where most people see it and you aggravated at least two presidents, LBJ, in your Nixon.

I love that and there was clearly a sense that you had power. Do you feel like you influenced policy? Did you influence people? In some small way are you helping to change the world? I think it's a modest way somewhere along the line. Don't know. the farm was to see what other power was obviously influencing because we had it, we got kicked off the air, so people were saying boy, you were, you were, but you were ahead of your time. I said well, if we had a preview of our time, no one to pay attention to us, we arrived just in time, that's when you understand that it was a very powerful move to take us out of the air at that moment, shoot, so it's nice for everyone to the people , we get a lot of residual respect from the people inside.

Your 40's and 50's who said that although you are a breath of fresh air for us, we watch you and it's a nice feeling at the time we were doing it, of course, I had no idea, I just took, I've kept better records, No. Think about a magazine because I get asked about this more than anything else. I kept getting these interviews about John Lennon or interviews, but I said we want to do something on vh1 about the WHO and about Steve Martin and Mama Cass and they come to me. What am I supposed Toria, the information I said sounds exactly like George W, so I understand they are not suppositories?

I'm a deposit you mentioned, yes you mentioned John Lennon, you were there at the end of the bed and you were part of playing the guitar, it's a chance, he corrected me, you know, you have to say there were very few people sitting there and we need to know that we are in the thing I was in Montreal with me at Beddin for Peace, it was 1969 1979 and they invited me. to show up on the corner and they were in bed and on the way there and up, Timothy Leary, a group of radical people were there and I was singing a song, Tom, here's another guitar and inside playing that, oh , we're saying it's so an s' and he starts saying knots, he plans to plan D or some simple chords, so I moved on to the next inversions in fourths playing in the other version, I decreased a little bit passing fourths, this is, oh, for , play it exactly how I'm playing it, don't play what I said, I thought I was showing him all my good stuff, you just repeat exactly double the guitar, that's what I wanted, okay, so you sang and the whole video and I now understand that you will not receive royalties for that. interpretation no, it doesn't matter, were you surprised that a song that was so overtly political whether sung by the Beatle or not didn't become such a big selling record and was actually an anthem?

It was a beautiful song when So Simple felt like that in the room. I had a feeling, yeah, I felt like it was going to be that kind of song. One of the predominant themes of this show is that the artistsThey often use their work to make a statement. to make a difference and one of the notable things about her show was the number of people she had who did just that and one time Joan Baez showed up and wanted to dedicate a song to her husband that to most people would seem like something quite inaccurate, but that also disturbed the sensors, she said Harris was her name and I dedicated it to my husband, who resisted the draft being frank and is going to prison for it and they eliminate the reason mm-hmm I'm dead again like my husband going to prison and it was very disturbing and that's when the pressure started, that was in 1969, it's hard for people to remember that they're old enough to remember it.

The most divisive time on earth that I remember, maybe since the Civil War, in terms of differences of opinion, it was or were you a long hair, short hair, a hawk or a dove, you loved it or you left it, there was no room for no type. of equivocation on this and Joan Baez, oh my gosh, she's done so many good things and I only had a TV show with my brother at the time, which reflects that we've never made the effort of some of the people that we were. Reflecting on it, I actually intended to do the marches and then stuff the envelopes and do all the real stuff, but Joan was one of them and then Seeger was one of them.

There were a lot of people and we had the great song The Buffalo. Springfield, something's happening, you know, great songs, there's great stuff, great music, you had some seminal moments, but I'm concerned and it bothers me in the same way that the Second Amendment is expanded to the point where I care, but the First Amendment as it is and I don't hear anything said that would offend you, but what is the alternative to saying that these are words that cannot be used well? I don't think we should test the First Amendment when it says nothing other than help me with this because I've had this conversation with several people who are also Steve Allen and he was probably very adamant about it.

Steve Allen was extraordinary about how the culture had gone and it's brilliant, it's good, all the marbles go to but how can we protect ourselves against a kind of generational push? And I also have the impression that what we did was not that shocking or that egregious and what they are doing today is shocking and appalling. The arrest of Chuck D of Public Enemy was in that president last week and he said that my relationship with Public Enemy was not dangerous, but things today I need to protect my children again. I'm sure there were people who saw you as public enemy number one in '68 and '69, well there's a classic quote from a woman The Daily News says if this were it, she hates the Smothers Brothers, if this were a totalitarian country, they would take you out and shoot you, it was close in this country how do we protect ourselves against that, how do I mean, clearly we have a lot, well, maybe it's done, it's done, now we're sitting here intellectualizing and philosophizing about the First Amendment and we're dealing with the rights of M&Ms and Tommys and the arts going to the limit while this country is about what it's about and we're sitting here in this little glass room arguing about the rights of bad speech instead of their protection, the right of Nazis to march in so-and-so and seal protecting every little piece of urine.

Shit that comes up and here I am a little more sincere, yeah, and then we have these things that come out of the First Amendment which was the right not to restrict freedoms before the government to be able to criticize, that was a concept that we didn't hear any criticism . If I could talk about a final chapter about the young people and the television show because I think a lot of people overlook the direct correlation between the First Amendment and the government and in the event that you get fired from CBS, I want to say that it is a remarkable story and that the show is profitable, the ratings are good and suddenly we have a new president, Richard Nixon, and within six weeks you are off the air and controversy is building around a show that will air on Week Santa, one of the most cited reasons for The CBS Objection was the sermon that David Steinberg was going to give, but what was less reported is that you took the opportunity on this show to mock a senator, the story, yes, who was the one who was holding hearings on television content and, doing nothing, just a few weeks.

Before he was fired, CBS's Frank Stanton took a very firm stance, telling Senator Pat Pastore: We're not going to send our programming to this industry organization for preselection; that was a proposal that the issue is always that the government doesn't We don't want to censor you so we don't want to have to censor you so please censor yourself and CBS took a very strong position on the First Amendment and then like that you went, well, also took a position and turn around. We had all our pre-screening programs for each of the affiliates, but we have some of these Nixon tapes and that was very powerful.

The government is different. It's a different dynamic. Now the media versus the government is reversed, but then it was them. when Nixon said I want those guys gone, they're gone now Humphrey would have been leftist, we've been there, that's how things happen and you think you think Richard Nixon had something or was doing, oh absolutely, what would it be like? that message? There's a memo coming from the White House, you know, they wouldn't send it home, but that's okay, William Paley, dr. Stanton and mr. Annenberg, the one with the TV guide, but somewhat biting in The Smothers Brothers.

I mean, this not just suddenly, they just synchronized, it was an organized and organized saying, they were both wanted by the ambassador at the court of st. . James and I believe that dr. Annenberg understood it, but William Paley wanted it too, this mother's brother, just a small fish, I mean, it doesn't mean anything in the big picture and that's true, and this country always allows dissent if it's not to dissent, phul if not to influence as well. a lot, that is a sign of our concession that we have freedom, there is a lot of freedom in this country, but in the name of the United States we are doing so much damage and there is no one, there is nothing to say, no, oh, say what.

Would you fight on a show now when that's the time most record labels would get paid? People would come and give him cash. I could earn bribes and we're doing anything that would be a business, a lot of Saturn business. I want to export this. and who controls what and it just seems like there's no hope and they're just getting so people out there don't know how what can we do anyway, you see these in the last election, you see the money that both parties put in and and you're thinking. well, and that's the first amendment, excuse me, money is the first amendment, freedom of speech would be if everyone had the same amount of money to spend in this election, but until that's the case, it's certainly the Supreme Court the one that says that money is a free expression now, if I were really smart, I could make up a joke.

I'm not. None of this stuff makes its way into your current act, not much, unless it does something right, the reasoner shows that you too we had writers writing all the time, we had a team of 24 writers and they worked on sketches, they worked on concepts and Wow, you had writers and he had legendary people working for you and who in turn shaped the face of comedy for at least another decade. maybe two, yes certainly Steve Martin was a major player mm-hmm, who else wrote for you? Rob Reiner oh, he was a radical too, he was like, come on Tom, let's get passionate here, so it's pretty funny.

Steve Martin is I'm not a social political animal I guess they looked at me and said no I don't want to do that and I look at Bill Maher. I said it, so Bill, relax, don't just be observant, it's clear you continue to feel very strongly about the issues. and being socially conscious is a big part of who you are, we are also seeing a generation that is less politically connected, less politically passionate, a younger generation that is coming, what are your hopes for that generation? Oh man, people have to watch the show, I mean. I am very bright and I still think that there will be a presidential candidate or some party that will intervene.

I think there's a lot in this country of an innate sense of justice, fair play, we love the underdog. that's the nature of our society, the way we have revolutionary things and someone is going to play that because it's sitting there waiting and at some point promoting it played it for a second and it has all the things and Nader tamps a little bit didn't have the thing , but someone will play this and it will be amazing. I mean, I hope this knock on wood becomes fair and true and honest and equitable, and there are people in this country and I think most people feel that. way and have not been connected to the correct nozzle on the real fire hydrant.

I've always enjoyed your comedy today. I deeply appreciate your candor, thank you for joining us, thank you Tommy

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, our guest has been Tom smothers. I'm Ken Paulson. We'll be back next week with another conversation from Free Expression the Arts in America. I hope you can join us to talk

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