Should climate change activists be applauded or arrested? | Question Time - BBC

On tonight's panel, Grant Shapps, the government's transport secretary, former minister and chairman of the Conservative Party during David Cameron's government, a Labor MP for almost 10 years, former shadow secretary for energy and

climate

change

listen Andy Rupert Reid, professor of philosophy at the University of East Anglia, former Green Party candidate and now spokesperson for

climate

change

activists

, Extinction Rebellion, journalist and breakfast radio presenter Julia Hartley Brewer and businessman and guest dragon on Dragons Den Fiona fetus from the BBC, many welcomes to our panel, to our audience here and of course to you at home who are joining the conversation. you can discuss in the usual way hashtag leave zqt on facebook on instagram and on twitter we would like to hear what you have to say so let's listen to our first

question

tonight, which is from sally knight,

should

we applaud the climate change

activists

or arrest them to Lisa and well, I really support what has happened in the last few weeks and I don't say that lightly but the reason I say it is because I have been a member of parliament for almost 10 years and during that

time

I have seen how this It is an issue, the most important issue of our

time

, that is always left aside because there is always something that is supposedly more important, always something that is supposedly more pressing and I think that without those young people who go out and do climate strike without the protests that we have seen on the streets, this issue simply would not be on the agenda, but what really matters now is what happens next, because now there is the possibility of building a really broad coalition that maintains that pressure.

We need to keep the pressure up because we're not even on track to meet our Net Zero goal by 2050. The reason for this is the Department of Transportation subsidies, where we're actually going backwards in terms of emissions, not forward, and I guess we're only. I would say to the protesters, many of whom are really fans so far, that you have to take the people with you on this journey; There is no point in telling people in towns like Wigan to get out of their cars when our trains and buses have been at a standstill for the last two years.

This has to be a positive agenda about creating clean energy jobs in cities like the mines. Jobs that were lost when the mines closed many years ago. about warmer homes. about better futures for our young people and about a better environment and if we make common cause with the people who are trying to improve the daily lives of ordinary people in this country, I believe this is a battle that we will win, we will start to take action and we will build a better Britain in the process well, I think the argument is undeniable, although I think there is a coup across the pond, it is denied that it ever happened, but we will leave that aside for the moment because it is not very important here tonight, but the reality is that the argument is It's undeniable that the method is ridiculous because I just came back from my company conference two days ago, with 500 colleagues there and I have to tell you that climate change was the number one

question

one that we had to discuss at that conference, we had so many things to discuss. our business, everyone is paying attention to the environment, sustainability, climate change, what our business is doing and in fact they even voted that a tree is now planned every year for every colleague we hire and we already have more than 4,000 trees for this year and they're saying they'd rather spend that money outside of our bonus fund, that's how important it is, so we don't need people to get glue, stick it to someone else's money and sit there for two days. preventing them from going to work. preventing you from going to the hospital preventing you from going about your normal daily life where you work to put food on the table for your children, a roof over your heads and live a normal life that is simply not acceptable, you are kidnapped.

I think it's really interesting. Lisa, you use the word protester because I deliberately asked the question activist, which suggests that I absolutely support the cause and it is absolutely right that this is highlighted and that the government around the world takes notice, but I agree with Theo that the methods I don't really do. I don't applaud at all and I think for normal people who are just trying to go to work and do the right thing, it's really deplorable and I think there are better ways to grab the headlines, so what do you think when you hear that because you take people?

With you well, I think the first thing I

should

say is if there are better methods, honestly, I'm all ears because I've been in this game for a long time. I have been working in non-governmental organizations in the Green Party for many years. years knocking on doors, etc., and you know none of that worked well at the beginning of this year, we're still on the same trajectory toward disaster that we've been on for the last 20 years, but then what happens in April, we had a extinction rebellion and the first A flash of beginning to change we managed to push the issue up the agenda when a thousand of us brave souls and it's thanks to them, you know, it's thanks to those 2,000 people.

Now of the hours, let me finish this point, skiing, it is thanks to those. 2,000 people who have been

arrested

, yes, I am privileged to be here on this panel tonight, otherwise I wouldn't be here, yes, but look, what I want to acknowledge is that there is a reason why the story has not been

arrested

. It worked until recently and the reason is that the problem seems too remote, so yes, after April, a lot more people said we agree that climate change is an emergency, but it still feels too remote, people don't It feels like an emergency, so you know those of you who are thinking?

Is it really as bad as they say? I understand where you're coming from. I understand that I tried for 20 years with the old methods and the old story and it doesn't work, so here is my message. At night we are changing, we are changing in terms of our methods, non-violent civil disobedience, the same as for the suffragettes, for Martin Luther King, Gandhi and many others besides, and we are changing with the message, so my message to This night, forget about the year 2050, forget about sea level rise, forget about polar bears and penguins, even though they are precious and beautiful, this is about us now, it is about the fact that last summer the crops in this country were failing because they were baked in the fields.

It's about the vulnerability of our food supply, it's not even about our children or grandchildren anymore, it's about the intense vulnerability of our entire society to this catastrophe that is already looming over us, which is why today we are in the London City Airport showing some of that vulnerability that's why we need to be there until that message comes through and it starts to really change, okay, a little bit, obviously, we all know the environment is a big problem. I myself follow a plant-based diet for that reason, but it's interesting that you talk about the methods to me, a lot of people in the dance industry, you probably know it wrong and you don't know anything, you may be slandering a whole group of people. people, although I think it's the wrong kind of people who are posting this message. there's a real argument, you know, for the environment and it's painting a completely wrong picture and, like Theo said, it's stopping people from going to work, it's causing problems for normal people and it shouldn't be like that, it should be a problem that we all adopt and we all change or regular lifestyles and I think you know when you see these people dancing in the street it's not a protest, it's just a picnic and I think it's very important that we make this an issue appropriate and let's not make it look stupid on the front.

Do you want to say something? I'm concerned that some of the younger people will see this and think it's an appropriate thing for them to potentially do and get a criminal record and then they may damage their future job prospects by having a criminal record, which then means certain job opportunities are not available to them. , the men with glasses, an individual named Greta Thumb Burg, we know we would understand this, she actually left with a lot of support and around the world, and whether you like her attitude or not, she really finished. that while what we have now is that our activists in London were actually alienating people against them, I think starting to destroy the argument, they should be very careful with the woman in the yellow sweater here.

I was going to reference an article by George Man Bo in a few days ago, you talked about the need to refer to this as perhaps an extermination event rather than an extinction event because that's too passive and I wondered what what the panel thought about that and if you support the action that is being eliminated, it seems. a minute, oh, yes, yes, with a big I think it's sad that they are arrested instead of

applauded

. I think it's a waste of police time. I absolutely see it. I think we should address environmental issues and move towards clean renewable fuels. our waste in our oceans and taking care of our planet, but there is nothing in the science, nothing in any of the IPCC reports, easy reports that suggest that we are heading towards a catastrophe, a crisis, a mass extermination or anything that you think that This is scaremongering. of the worst kind, well the UN says we have 12 years to limit global temperatures to 1.5 degrees and urgent and unprecedented changes are needed.

Well we know what it says is if we really want to try to avoid 1.5 degrees, we have it, but there is a two-thirds chance that we can do it if we address those problems, but there won't necessarily be a catastrophe if we don't, so the Earth has been hotter than that, but the key question is what we need to do to achieve that, what the Extinction Rebels are doing and what they want, which is very, very different from what other climate activists have discussed. over the years, is that global net zero carbon emissions by 2025 can't be achieved by getting rid of diesel cars or maybe people have a little extra tax on their flights to New York on holiday we're talking about getting rid all cars all buses all trains all central heating all flights having state meat rationing this is what it will actually entail it is impossible to achieve that goal otherwise it is about taking us back to the pre-industrial era .

Now we are constantly told that this is a terrible thing. Industrialization has been a terrible thing. Industrialization. The Industrial Revolution is the greatest thing that has happened to humanity. It is delivered longer and healthier. Happier, more fulfilling lives for billions of people more than anything else our planet has achieved. The best time to be alive is now, apart from tomorrow. Whatever the problems related to climate change, they will be solved through technological innovation by markets and governments. yes, by coming together and through a sensible debate based on facts, what we have with extinction rebellion, I'm afraid is not a sensible debate based on science or facts, it is for all intents and purposes a kind of religious squeeze and death . sect and I, for one, think it's absolute madness, but people are listening, but their demands, look, I apologize to the young man for not having a nose ring and I apologize for not being part of any sect. .

In fact, I take a lot of my advice from the United Nations IPCC, which repeatedly says in its most recent report that to limit global overheating to 1.5 degrees, which is considered the danger threshold, we need rapid, far-reaching changes. and unprecedented in all aspects of society and why are we behind it is so late where is the action? Where is the action towards that goal? Today those famous eco-extremists the International Monetary Fund said this the risk of a catastrophic and irreversible disaster is increasing, implying potentially infinite costs of absolute climate change, including human extinction now, if that is not a license for the kind of things we are saying and doing I'm not sure what was mentioned.

I have the privilege of non grata for Berg and asked him publicly when he was here in April to support our first rebellion. your view of Greta what is your view of Extinction Rebellion Greta and her answer was very simple, she said that I support her unconditionally and at the end of the day this is not about whether or not you have sympathy towards Extinction Rebellion , we. We don't really matter, okay, what matters is whether we manage to draw attention to the problem and whether we manage to finally start taking the action we need to stop ourselves from driving ourselves off a cliff, that's what it's all about, but Rupert doesn't, doesn't it?

Do you understand that you are acting like Nantes? You are distancing people from the great cause we all believe in. We're talking about it now. I just explained the cause and I'm actually getting a good amount of applause. Here, so I think it's fine, as Lisa rightly pointed out when they did thehe asks at the beginning. My department, the Department of Transportation, is actually responsible for a lot of the CO2. Here is what there is no doubt, we have to control it. I have no doubt about this: 27% of CO2 comes from transport and 90% comes from vehicles and there are some really easy things we can do that go, for example, towards the electrification of roads with electric cars and so.

It would be a very important first step. I have an electric car. It's fantastic. These are practical steps we can take, but here's what I don't understand. We are living in the country, the industrialized nation that has done the most to advance. decarbonize faster than any other country in the world that has legislated to get to Net Zero, so instead of stopping people from getting to work and stopping people from attending hospital appointments, going to a country that doesn't is doing any of these things and protest there. I totally agree with what you just said, they are absolutely right and instead of making it difficult for other people, why don't they protest peacefully and protest outside the investor compound where they are doing nothing at all.

The woman in the red sweater knocked. Today I was in London and at Charing Cross and there was a whole line of people with things like LED makeup and dressed in green and red walking silently through the station and I assumed they were extinction rebellion because they were all in Chagas they quit their jobs yeah, I applaud the sentiment behind this, however it is alienating many people and I personally believe there is a climate problem. I think we all have to do something. However, it was necessary for me that the person who had the greatest impact on me was Sir David Attenborough on the blue planet when he majestically and respectfully said the amount. of plastic that is in the ocean and that whales and other creatures are swallowing and for me that had a big impact and made me think that we all need to come together to do something small, did it allow you to change your behavior, yes it did, me It made me take things seriously because for him to record that and keep saying it, it made me pay attention and my nephew is six years old and he watches the blue planet, I don't know what will have an impact on him and he is the future for us.

I find it really incredible that you can sit there and say: let's look at the countries, let's take some responsibility here in the UK. At least I believe what you said about public transportation in the north. areas is very true and what I would like to see is some accountability from the government around private car ownership and taxing something that we know is incredibly dangerous and investing that money into public transportation specifically in the regions of the north where London is consistently known to be overfunded and then Northern regions left with private car ownership is a necessity.

The Extension Rebellion protesters stopped me today and as a result I was late to pick up my son from school and he was crying his eyes out desperately upset that I wasn't there. when you hoped it would be, but in 20 years you won't remember that what you will remember is that if we don't act now on this emergency, we can face a little bit of disruption now if it has the effect of taking action really a little bit of disruption It has nothing to do with it, you anticipate that it will last the whole fortnight and then what happens after that, well if it lasts a whole fortnight, that depends on how many audience members come and join me after tonight and take the barricades in particular.

In terms of the things that were just said, a couple of key points to answer the NetZero goal that the government has legislated for big things that would not have happened without us, that were outside the window of political possibility before the April rebellion. It moved forward and our rebellion changed the numbers, changed the numbers completely in terms of how important people thought the issues were. What if this is a fact? This is heterosexuals only. People look at the polls before and after the rebellion. After the rebellion, people suddenly start saying that the environment is a problem. an issue more important than immigration, more important in the economy, the first thing that has happened in this country, that is up to us now in terms of the numbers that you gave to these grants about how well this country is doing, you know, the first demand of extinction rebellion is I'm telling the truth and I would like you to start saying what number is where you claim that we are doing better than all the other countries, yes, carbonization is faster than any other.

These gas and greenhouse gas emissions figures are very comforting. Quickly exclude those figures, all the air and sea travel figures, and for the whole pile, excuse me, it does change it because we actually fly a lot more in this country than people in other countries. States, no, not even in Europe, so when you get the numbers right when you tell the truth, we are not doing well at all, our carbon emissions have barely decreased since 1990, those are the facts and I wish it were true, that is the truth. I'm eating this. I would really like you to look into it and I see why she would start telling the choppers here now in terms of what's going on with other countries and say, "Oh, why don't you go protest in China, whatever our rebellion is?" What is it globally?" what we started here is being exported around the world, a great British export, it is completely peaceful, completely non-violent and, as one lady rightly said, it is disturbing, but you want to see real disruption, bad harvests, right, children who don't know if they are going to have a future at all this is absolute nonsense this is Malthus taking crack this is what has been predicted this type of nihilist the world is going to end the IPCC is not predicting any of that there is nothing in the science nothing in the It doesn't document anything in any of the IPCC reports that predicts any of that, what is the way that they are using their tactics and, again, there is no extinction rebellion, you have what you call demands and those lawsuits you are trying to move forward through harassment you have the option to show up at the polls you have to cheat talk about the suffragettes and the civil rights movement in the United States women did not have the vote and black people did not have the vote in the United States either because That I had to resort to that kind of action.

You had the polls last time, around what are the European elections in PR, where the Green Party is not affected by the absolute majority system. He obtained eleven point eight percent of the votes. the vote is a massive increase in the last general election by one point six percent, so it just showed that you can persuade but you want to persuade people at the polls you want to have your Julia so hi Jeff, I make a new standard for the ballot boxes that saves you I'm done time - you're just intimidating people through our option it's just that's what it is just no sorry it's not it's not bullying pointing out to people that this is actually an international crisis that needs to be addressed Much more seriously, it is no good for Grant to sit here and say: look, look at all the brilliant things we are doing when his government is the one that cut investment in solar energy, that effectively banned new wind farms and that subsidized diesel , which is what feels dirty. of everyone and his party, who is one of those in the monitoring, would reduce our time in favor of giving people the right to decide which strikes are worth it for fracking.

It's downright democratic if you're going to impose fracking in your area, but look, let me tell you. This is for you too, it's not just about the environment as it is absolutely critical, it's about Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, saying very, very clearly that climate change and our failure to tackle it is the greatest threat to the planet. financial system these are people's pensions these are people's life savings this is people's livelihood silence if you don't care about the future Yes I remember this but this is it when it is what is the evidence about it at least I found out that there are people in this room and people listening at home, who started or even very many, if you continue to pretend, in this area and what are the economic and political costs of different different forms of action to address the problem, We just yelled, well, just Don't worry about the kids if you don't agree with me, the last word, okay, gentlemen, they said we should move faster on the automobile issue, and by the way, we had already said we would end with the sale of gasoline and diesel cars by 2040, before anything else. from extinction rebellion action last week I talked about looking into bringing forward until 2035 knights here talking about the northern railway and we're putting in a huge multi-million dollar package to build a lot more I don't think this should be like this.

I don't think this should be a political issue as we across Parliament have agreed to vote for this, but Lisa, I have to pick up on your solar claim because 99 per cent of all solar capacity in this country has been built since then. The government was in power so your fact is just wrong and Rupert, sorry, just finish, wants us to base it on facts. We are following the facts of the Committee on Climate Change, so the Committee on Climate Change is now the one in the Committee on Climate change is telling you that in reality you will be very far off the pace and let your adaptation efforts look like the your father's army In other words, when we have a country, a lot when we have a country that, for example, last year and you won.

Let's not let these facts come to light for some reason last year low carbon energy production accounted for more than 53% of our total production as a nation. If I listen to you, I think we were getting nowhere while, in fact, this economy is decarbonizing, as I said before. Instead of disrupting people's lives, there are protests in countries where carbon emissions really need to be reduced at a much faster pace, where they have no plan in place.