Putin's 'shock' as Russian money set to fund his downfall in Ukraine | Bill Browder

When I was in Russia in the 1990s, Putin and his oligarchs ruled the roost, they went around the world buying influence, aggressively suing anyone who challenged or exposed them and looked like they owned the world and in a certain way because they behaved in a certain way. so arrogant and aggressive and they were wasting their

money

so much, um uh, a lot of people agreed, including Lon, to a large extent, so it's been a complete

shock

and surprise for me to see. how the world has changed how the tide has changed and how the world finally woke up after the invasion, the full-scale invasion of Ukraine and said, "This guy is a monster, we have to do something about this" and suddenly we froze to the Russians. government

money

and we have frozen the oligarchs' money and I think it is surprising that we reacted as strongly as we did unexpectedly.

I never thought that would happen. I think Putin never thought that would happen. Putin thought we would always be, you know. These highly corrupt Westerners who would say they know, condemn it and then continue taking the Russian money. I think it has been a big surprise to him that he is no longer welcome in London and that the Germans are no longer buying Russian gas. and he's kind of hanging out in Moscow in a lot of different ways. Hello and welcome to Frontline Radio with me K jao and today we are catching up with financial and political activist Bill Browder, he is the founder and CEO of Hermitage Capital Management and was the largest foreign investor in Russia until 2005, when he was banned from entering the country for exposing corruption.

He is now campaigning to impose sanctions against corrupt individuals linked to Putin's regime and to free political activists imprisoned by him. Bill Browder welcome back to the frontline thank you for your time you were at the Munich security conference when the death of imprisoned Russian opposition politician Alexa Naali was announced and your wife Julia was also there can you just describe how you found out and the impact that it got? If I was there, I was having, I was there, I was having a meeting regarding another political prisoner, Vladimir Karam Murza, who is also serving time in a Siberian prison for opposing Putin's regime, and in the middle of the meeting, my phone rang.

They called people all over the world to tell me that Lexi Nalni had been murdered and it was a huge

shock

, I mean, just a tectonic shock, uh, and then, like um, the news spread at the Munich security conference, which It is a very closed event. The space and the people very, very close to each other. It became kind of the main theme of the conference and you didn't even need to mention it to know that that was what everyone was talking and thinking about. it was right there, and then of course a few hours later um in the main plenary room um there was Julia navala um Alexis's widow um who gave this incredibly moving and devastating speech about the murder of her husband and um she kind of felt like Ground Zero when it came to this whole shocking murder, how well did you know it?

He had been a friend and ally for over 15 years. We began to work together very actively after the murder of my lawyer in Russia. Sergey Magnitsky Sergey had been murdered after uncovering a massive government corruption scheme and then I started a campaign to get justice for Sergey and one of the first people to join my campaign for justice and help was Alexi Nalni and at the time , Alexi was kind of uh um who was just starting to be known in Russia for his anti-corruption work, he had a blog, um, he was using all the different experiments and all the different types of social media and he started airing all the information. that we had found out about the murder of Sergey Magn and we started producing these very short videos about the various people involved in the conspiracy to kill Sergey and he started putting those videos on his blog, which got millions of downloads and following that , he was attacked by the same people and they sued him and they went after him in a number of different ways and often in a situation like that, anyone who helps you and gets attacked, then you know, back off, but he doesn't.

He didn't back down at all, he didn't feel intimidated and, you know, doing that has always found a place in my heart for his, for, you know what he did and, um, and we've remained friends and allies throughout. . years, as we have both been from our different points of view fighting against Putin and he was also a big participant in supporting the magnitsky ACT, which is a piece of legislation to freeze the assets of Putin and his cronies, so has been a really important part of our campaign in my life and and um, I am genuinely and totally devastated by the fact that he has been murdered, I mean, it's just terrible and you know, for that and many other reasons, this is obviously and you mentioned before, I'm so sorry if you're lost because it's obviously very painful for you and the parallels and the irony of this is just horrible, um, his death has inevitably focused attention on your friend, who I mentioned before who you said you were speaking at the Munich conference of Vladimir Kosza, who is in a high security prison in Siberia accused of treason, he likes naal um, he was dedicated and mag magnitsky was dedicated to exposing corruption and had also been highly critical of war, how is it not good, so Vladimir caram morza had worked with me for many years to get the magnitsky acts passed around the world, at that current count we are in 35 countries and for that work, he is truly and absolutely despised . by Putin and his henchmen and in retaliation for his work in Magnitsky ACT they tried to kill Vladimir with poison in 2015 he went into a coma as soon as he survived uh they didn't try to kill him again with poison in 2017 again as soon as he survived he suffers very deeply from the consequences of those poisonings and then, at the beginning of the war in 2022, in March, he returned to Russia to protest the war he participated in 60 M on a CNN and called Putin a war criminal and a murderer and um like 12 hours later he was arrested and how they hate him They both gave him the longest sentence of any political prisoner in Russia 25 years then they sent him to Siberia like they did with Nalni and put him in solitary confinement in Siberia where he is right now he is not in good shape he is suffering the effects side effects of those poisons um he suffers from something called polyneuropathy which means he can't feel his extremities his feet are numb um uh most doctors who know his condition and know His situation don't think he can survive two years let alone 25 years in this prison and the most worrying thing is that now Putin killed the most prominent political prisoner.

The next most prominent is Vladimir and um, and what makes his situation particularly unique. and relevant to us here in the UK is that Vladimir is a British citizen, he came to this country as a teenager, went to Cambridge University and of course returned to Russia as an opposition politician, but this country has a responsibility and a duty that you do everything possible to try to save his life not only because he is a citizen but because he is an important political prisoner who could potentially be the type of person or the person who could pick up the pieces when Putin finally collapses and no longer is already up and running where it is now reported that the British foreign secretary is trying to advance his case the case for his release what is going well for him for two years I was doing everything I could to get a meeting for his wife, the wife of Vladimir? and Vladimir's mother um with the foreign secretary and all the previous foreign secretaries did not want to meet with him.

I found them fortunately when Lord Cameron came he understood the significance of this case so last week he met with um. uh, Vladimir's wife, Yvenia, and her mother Elena, and as you said, he promised to do everything he can and, um, I think he will do everything he can. Now there is a big problem, which is that the United Kingdom does not have a policy. of not being involved in prisoner exchanges and that is the way we are finally going to get him out of prison, so I had to go on my own to other countries that have prisoners and this is what I did at the Munich security conference I met with 12 foreign ministers from 12 different countries and said, "If we can identify Russian prisoners in your countries, they could be exchanged for Vladimir and other vulnerable political prisoners.

Would you be willing and interested in doing that?" everyone said yes, so it's a very unpleasant and complicated situation because the British government has a policy of not dealing with hostage exchanges and prisoner exchanges. I have to work on this at Hawk. Not as a government official, but simply as a friend and defender of Vladimir H. How confident are you because you are working tirelessly that he will be released from prison and that he will not suffer the terrible fate that we saw with Alexi Nali? I'm not sure at all. I am absolutely terrified. I think Vladimir Camura will probably die unless there is urgent intervention to save his life and we have now seen that Putin has no qualms about killing high profile political prisoners and we already know that Vladimir is suffering deeply in solitary confinement in a Siberian prison and I think we have to put aside all the niceties of previous policies and use every tool possible, including prisoner exchange, to get them out because if we don't, they will die. so there isn't much hope that Britain can help at all with the prisoner exchange idea.

Another thing that is very close to his heart and something he has spoken about many times before is the desire to conspire to put pressure on President Putin by confiscating the Russian Central Bank's approximately $300

bill

ion of frozen assets abroad and allocating them to Ukraine Lord Cameron has been talking about it in the House of Lords in London and he is proposing this idea because there have been a lot of concerns raised about the legality of this internationally and what is holding it back and also the political concerns about it are deterring other countries wanting to put their money in US dollars for fear that they could one day be confiscated if it happens with Russia is suggesting that the frozen assets could be given to Ukraine in the form of a syndicated loan or bonds that could be recovered at a future date when Russia make repairs.

What do you think of that idea? Do you think it's possible? First of all, a couple of hours ago I was testifying before the Estonian Parliament because they are considering a law to confiscate the assets of the Russian government and on that call I was with several experts, including Professor Larry Tribe. who is one of the world's leading legal experts on this matter and I would definitely say there is a legal path forward to do this and I would say there is also a very strong political path forward to do this and the only thing to do is What I would oppose in terms of the current proposal that the Foreign Secretary is making is that we don't need to do these complicated bond and loan machinations to Ukraine, we should just confiscate Russian money, plain and simple.

I think we are negotiating with ourselves here and Putin understands one thing more than anything, which is the value of money and he killed Alexi naly, invaded Ukraine, killed many, many, many Ukrainian civilians and soldiers. I think so. It would be a pretty clear message to him: if you do all these terrible things, we will take your money and, besides, you know where the budget in the UK came from yesterday, you know there will be. There really is a lot of pressure on government

fund

ing. um, you know, we should take that money instead of charging British taxpayers.

Putin should pay for it before us and I think the majority of taxpayers around the world would feel the same way, it seems to me that all these machinations and complications should be put aside and that the US, the UK, the EU and others allies should confiscate that money and the tool, the legal means are there and give that money to Ukraine. for its defense and reconstruction is the absolutely right thing from a moral point of view, it is the right thing financially and it is the right thing politically and I think that, whoever is arguing against, those arguments are absolutely all the arguments. can easily be rejected when faced with any kind of scrutiny, so if there was a way to go ahead with what you want and what you propose there, and Russia loses that money, what effect will that have? um uh, this will have no effect on international confidence in the financial system, which is one of the big fears and apprehensions that opponents of this plan have. um Christine Lagard, the president of the European Central Bank says, oh people, won't it?

Well, you don't understand the euro anymore, you obviously don't understand international finance because basically the US and the UK, and the EU, they do this together, there are no options, for people who want to have currency, it's not like could have Iranian reals or Argentine pesos and hope that their money is safe, these are thewhat they call reserve currencies. The reserve currencies are there because they are very liquid reserves of value and that does not change. The only thing that changes is that if you are a government, an evil government like Putin's government, and you aggressively and unjustifiably invade and destroy a neighboring country, then their money does not it's safe, but otherwise it's perfectly safe and I don't think anyone would do it.

I'm going to doubt it and that's the main argument why people don't want to go ahead with this and that argument is totally invalid. There has been something of a Landmark legal case in the UK against Kem. He has been punished for not doing so. pay legal costs awarded to yukus shareholders um this is the former oil giant that was seized by the chrem in 2003 the court ruling allows the sale of

russian

owned real estate in london to cover those costs could this be the beginning It is a sign that one day President Putin can and will be held accountable, it is the main legal obstacle that has been overcome in this case and sets a very important precedent: Putin has been hiding behind what is called sovereign immunity. saying that if an asset belongs to the state of Russia, that asset is protected by sovereign immunity in the same way that an embassy would be protected and what the yukos, uh, what the judge said in the yukos case is that, um, that Russia The Russian government is not protected by sovereign immunity that their claim is valid and they can take that money from the Russian government and if that continues to be true, which I think it will, then you can extrapolate from that and say that all

fund

s from Russia.

Russian government money is not protected by sovereign immunity and Ukraine and other victims of Russia can file claims and I think that's a very important thing and hopefully as the legal process continues that's what will be decided and then the only and main argument. What Putin is hiding behind, of course, I hope there is an appeal against that ruling, but we will see what happens with that, but do you think there will come a time when they will take away the fortune of President Putin and his cronies? far uh, when you were in Russia in the late 90s and early 2000s, when that wealth was being accumulated, did you ever think that the situation we face today would be possible?

Well, it's, no, no, I couldn't have imagined it. a world when I was in Russia in the 1990s um Putin and his oligarchs ruled the roost, they went around the world buying influence um aggressively suing anyone who challenged them or exposed them and looked like they owned the world and in a way because they behaved such an arrogant and aggressive way and they were wasting their money so much, um uh, a lot of people agreed, even in London, big time, so it's been a complete shock and surprise to see how the world has changed, how it has turned the tide and how the world finally woke up after the invasion, the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and said, "This guy is a monster," we have to do something about this and all of a sudden, we freeze the government money Russian and we have frozen the money of the oligarchs and I think it is surprising that we have reacted as strongly as we did.

I never thought that would happen. I think Putin never thought that would happen. Putin thought we always would. Do you know these highly corrupt Westerners who would say they know, condemn it, and then continue taking the Russian money? I think it has been a big surprise to him that he is no longer welcome in London and the Germans are no longer welcome. buying Russian gas and it's kind of hanging in Moscow in many different ways. It's been almost three weeks since Alexa Navali died. What have you been doing during that time and how has his death changed your work and goals?

Two things, one is that I think there should be really serious consequences for her murder, so far there haven't been. I think one way to tie all these points together is that his assassination should be the catalyst that accelerates the confiscation of the $300

bill

ion Russian Central Bank Reserves and I think the West should tell Putin that they should call it navali law, the confiscate those assets and tell Putin, you know you killed Alexi Nali, that just cost you $300 billion. would be an appropriate and appropriate response to that murder um and then the other thing that has changed in my job in the last three weeks is the urgency to get Vladimir keram morza out of prison with Alexi naly dead next Vladimir and we need to get him out bill um I know your time is very valuable thank you very much uh for talking to us today um it's been good to hear your thoughts you've been watching Frontline for times radio with me Kate chabo if you want to support us You can subscribe now or listen to Times Radio or go to Times.co. uk.

My thanks to our producer Louis SES and you for watching, goodbye for now.