Post Office Scandal: The Full Story (So Far)

It was the most widespread miscarriage of justice in UK hi

story

. 700 hard-working administrators and

post

masters were prosecuted for theft, fraud and false accounting from the late 1990s to 2015, but the problem was not the workers, but rather unreliable accounting software, the

office

's computer system.

post

office

spent an arm. and one leg is defective the first episode of an ITV drama telling the

story

aired last night Alan Bates was one of the postal workers affected, he refused to back down, took the post office to court on behalf of 555 plaintiffs and won, but many We still haven't seen any compensation each year, the government says we will pay them before the end of the year last year.

The minister said we will pay them in December this year Well that has not happened, the government says it has made funds available. to ensure victims receive compensation and the post office says it is doing everything it can to deliver that compensation and write up past mistakes lawyers representing victims say police should now investigate office bosses of couriers for perverting the course of justice a public investigation The

scandal

continues. Well, the real M debates join us now from North Wales. Good morning to you Alan, it's great talking to you on the show this morning. We were never actually charged with any criminal offense, but you were actually one of them. the first people to realize that something terrible was going wrong because their numbers didn't add up and they wouldn't accept that it was their responsibility, could they just tell us about what they discovered that then caused the unjust fall of so many? from your colleagues at the post office uh good morning um good morning I think realistically it all started for me a couple of weeks after the system went live and I suddenly discovered I was £6,000 short on the system and I couldn't get it, I couldn't get any help at all, but after doing hundreds and hundreds of prints or it felt like hundreds of prints and spending hours and hours going through them, I suddenly discovered that there were a ton of duplicate transactions. which had made up the majority of that money that once I found it I reversed them but put all my concerns in writing to the post office but they never responded on those points.

I guess it's understandable that a big organization like the Post Office would be defensive of their shiny new system to begin with, which is what it seems like to most people who watched the documentary last night and who know the story of Anyway, they were persistently denying it when it became very clear to anyone with a logical line of thought that it was the system that was wrong and suddenly hundreds and hundreds of teachers and postmasters couldn't have been corrupted overnight. They could not accept that the problem was in the system, which motivated them to deny it.

Do you think that? I have always said it is arrogance and ignorance. I really don't think they had the technical expertise to implement a big program like that and it was a big program and it should have been really good and it should have moved the post office forward, but I think it was probably the cheapest price they could get and they really know that they should have listened to the sub postmasters who used the system daily, but their arrogance that the system was correct was the main failure. Alan, what did you think when thousands of people said they had the same problem and hundreds of them 700 were prosecuted between 1999 and 2015 for something you knew wasn't their fault?

It's great to know that it's not someone's fault to prove that it isn't. It's someone's fault and I mean the post office, you know, year after year they rejected our accusations not only from us but also from the MPS who supported us all this time and it wasn't until we took them to the Judiciary where they didn't had control, you know, things really started to change and we managed to expose the truth, albeit at enormous cost to ourselves, but it wasn't just that they didn't understand their own system, as you've said quite succinctly, there they move .

From there to lying to you, uh, they set up this hotline for people who have problems, they could call to ask for supposed advice and they told hundreds of you that you were the only person who had a problem and they lied to you, oh. Very true, and it wasn't until we started meeting, as you probably saw in last night's drama, that we realized there were many others involved, given the suffering it imposed on hundreds and hundreds of people like you. much less the fear that this will happen to people who in the end were not prosecuted, seems extraordinary to many people.

I don't think we've seen any prosecution of anyone at the post office for what happened, because there's talk of incompetence, but I think most people would say that in the end it was evil, oh yeah, I wouldn't disagree with you on that. I mean, there certainly came a point in everything that, when it felt like they felt revenge, they were there to prove a point that They had the money, they had the muscle, they had the power and we, the little underdogs, Masters, couldn't do it. nothing. I mean, we've been looking at recent private proceedings and I think many of the group would like to see a number. of the real culprit in all of this being brought to book, um, but yeah, I've recently started to notice that the legal inquiry is now looking into the prosecutions themselves, so I think we'll wait and see what they do in the first instance, but rest assured that We will pursue them if the authorities do not do so, it is considered the U's biggest miscarriage of justice in this country.

The drama forces him to be played brilliantly by actor Toby Jones. I mean, you know. I can't tell the difference between you, I'm sure you can, but I wonder if having such a high profile and the public reaction galvanizes the campaign and could lead to further action, possibly such as you suggesting prosecutions or ultimately payment. of compensation you have to come back tomorrow now the compensation or the so-called compensation is what the government calls it is a compensation it is actually the financial compensation that is owed to these people it is money that is actually owed to them compensation if you stub your toe foot against a stick out of the pavement or something, but I mean, nobody deserves this and some people have been waiting over 20 years to try to get this back and the big problem at the moment seems to be the bureaucracy involved in the scheme that is working and We need to get moving, we really want to, I mean people have been suffering for too long, why is the system so complicated?

Horizon um, I'm really sorry, I was referring to the compensation system, it seems to be working on three different levels, why is it so complex? Well, there are actually three different schemes and they came about when they were needed rather than being designed to have three different SE schemes from the beginning. The scheme I am involved in is actually for the original 500 and who brought the court case against the post office. There is another plan that is for um, if you like the historical deficiencies that other subpostmasters have had and there is a third plan that is for those who had convictions and have had them overturned and seeking their financial compensation, but as far as our plan is concerned , the original, what they call Glo group, the group litigation plan, uh, I mean, it's been 20 months since it started and I don't think there isn't one, oh no.

Li, there are a handful of what they call the low hanging fruit that have gotten their money, but the majority certainly aren't even close to even getting offers yet, so it's just crazy, but I think it's held up in the system and I know the governments seem to say it's the lawyers who are delaying this, but it's not the plaintiff lawyers, it's the government lawyers who are delaying this. And this is, you know, this is for things that started in 1999, so when the prosecution started, your campaign started. In 2009, I now know many people who watch the Drama and see you as the real My debates this morning will wonder why this man has not been knighted for his services to Justice.

Actually, they offered you an honor, weren't you on the previous list? or the year before last, why did you reject it? Yes you're right. They offered me an obbe, eh, I mean, but I've always said that it's not just about me, it's about the whole group, but as far as I'm concerned, I could do it. I didn't accept it, I mean it would have been a slap in the face to the rest of the group because Paula, a long-serving chief executive at the Post Office, had been awarded a CBE for her services to the Post Office, well what service has she had? ?

She actually did it, she caused devastation to an important British institution that was at the heart of the community, she ruined thousands of lives over the years, what the hell has she done to deserve it? It should be taken away and removed now, you are an extraordinary individual and what you have achieved is absolutely extraordinary. I just want to ask you this after watching the first episode of the drama last night when you galvanized yourself and embarked on this campaign against this extremely recalcitrant giant, the post office, did you always always trust yourself? and your wife that in the end you would prevail that you would not win well.

I mean, we didn't start with a major campaign, we started as a small group of us seeing what we could do and it just grew. Over the years we took it to the next level day after day and it has been the worst unpaid job I have had in 20 years, but you just have to keep going and see the suffering. that happened to so many people and it's not something you can give up, no, I know there were suicides associated with the

scandal

and 60 people died waiting for justice or compensation. I mean, it's taken a devastating toll.

Alan Bates, it is a privilege to know you. Thank you very much indeed and are you enjoying the television drama? Yes, I guess what I want to say is that the actor has done a wonderful job and has really portrayed very well a lot of the suffering that people have gone through. The biggest mistake of justice. in the history of Britain, the unfair prosecution of hundreds of postal workers, yes, and it's on the front page of the mirror this morning why there's still no justice, it's in the Sun today and the Post Office scandal discredits the belief that only private companies can be rotten. with an editorial too and in the mail is a photograph of Alan Bates, the humble hero who shamed the Post Office and we speak to former deputy postmaster Alan Bates, whose successful legal battle was turned into an ITV drama Mr Bates Versus The post office that was operating all this week, told us that even though they were promised a refund after more than 20 years, most of the victims have still not received money, there are a handful of what they call the hanging fruit you have received your money. but most are certainly not even close to having even received offers yet.

It's crazy, but I think it's delayed in the system and I know governments seem to say it's the lawyers who are delaying it, but it's not the plaintiff's lawyers, it's the government's lawyers. lawyers who are holding up well with this. I am very pleased to say that we are now joined by the Minister responsible for the Post Office these days Kevin Hollen. Hello, Mr. Holl. Nice to meet you and join us. I mean to quote two of Church's aphorisms with this. We should not take action today, what are you going to do to speed up the number one clearing process?

I could not agree more. The key is to get the EP money to the people who deserve it. compensation that we are doing, it is not correct to say that no one has received a single cent; every person affected by this scandal has received at least one provisional payment; Not many of the approximately 2,000 people of the original 2,417 people in the original compensation plan have been

full

y compensated and have accepted offers or have all had offers, so the offers are coming. We have to make sure those offers are fair and reasonable and put people back to where they would have been if this hadn't happened when you see it going. over and over again and I know Mr.

Bates is watching this interview, what would he say to you? He is demanding that you take action now. I speak to Alan Bakes regularly. I spoke to him at the end of December about this. We have set a deadline of August 7 to deliver this plan, that is what we want to do, we have extended that deadline in case there are some people who still need to be compensated, but of the around three and a half thousand people who have been affected by the scandal, Most have been compensated, we want to go further, we want to go faster, so, according to our briefing notes, it says that progress has been made in the payments made to the 500 pioneer postmasters that led to the post office to court and exposed the Horizon scandal. has paid 27 million in 475 Clements, this includes 11 complete and final agreements and another 10 complete and final agreements have been acceptedfinals, bringing the total number of accepted

full

and final agreements to 21.

There are three different cohorts out of 500 in that particular. There are three different cohorts, three different schemes, I get that, but let's focus on that, well, the original one in the Horizon deficit scheme. I said 200 people out of 2,417 people have been fully compensated and accepted offers. Offers have now been made for the other schemes. Wait, wait, there is a difference between accepting offers and receiving offers, so you are talking because there are three different schemes, there are three different schemes, so you are talking about the Horizon deficit scheme, which is about trying to correct the financial circumstances of those who they lost money and in many cases tens of thousands of pounds because of this, it is a mistake, how many full and final settlements in that scheme have there been I'm not talking about office, I'm talking about agreement The Horizon short Force 2000 scheme around 2000 of the 2417 80% of the people who have been made offers have accepted those offers of course working on the other 400 trying to reach hundreds of people who did not have a complete and final agreement in that particular, they did not accept the offers made to them, all schemes have independent panels with experts on those panels etc. the group litigation order scheme and this is Mr Bates' scheme versus the Post Office scheme and of that only 21 full and final settlements, so again hundreds of people have not yet received full compensation.

We're talking about a scandal that started in 1999, yes you got it. To understand the process that occurred here, those people were originally compensated through the court case. I was one of the back benches who stood up in Parliament and said this is not enough £20,000 per person who went through that claim because the majority of the claim is 507 million. was absorbed by legal fees or about £40 million in legal fees. I was one of the people along with Kevin Jones and other MPs who said we need to get a new compensation scheme for people who took legal action as well as other people. everyone understands why what I think a lot of people are hearing are a lot of explanations for why the money hasn't been paid, but no, for example, Grant Shap said the money will be paid at the end of last year, December 2022, at 23 23 now we are in January 2024 and we still hear well that the deadlines had to be extended because it is very complicated and there are many reasons why we cannot simply pay them the money that we want to make and that we want to pay them as quickly as possible in one of the schemes, another scheme, as well as the conviction overturning scheme that we have created and that we have brought, wait.

I'm going to interrupt you here because what you are doing and what you have done so far is giving us an explanation of the status quo and you have defended your position and tried to explain what you have done so far, the fact is that money must be paid now. My initial question to you was what are you doing? We are going to do to speed up the process and you have not responded, do you have any ideas to speed up the process? Of course we have committed that any body that has submitted a full claim will get an offer made on that claim for 40 days within 40 working days, that is a new commitment, we are still making a commitment to try to complete these schemes for August 7, but what you see in that documentary and that and that drama that ITV has put together and I applaud their efforts to do it because this scandal needs to come to light and not least, in addition to compensation, people need to be held accountable.

You are responsible for it, but what we saw in that dramatization is that these situations are highly complex. complicated, every different claim is different, so when you come forward and file your claim for not only financial loss but also personal loss for the impact on your mental health, your physical health, the loss of your home, your divorce, all those claims must be compiled. by the lawyers and then having to hesitate on the other side, it shouldn't be, it's complex. I have dealt with several of you. I set a deadline now in August. We want to deliver it before August 7.

We will hold you to that, please say that when you receive a claim you will process it and pay it within 40 days. We make an offer based on that claim within 40 days and of course it has to be an offer that the person feels is a reasonable offer totally agree yes over 700 postal workers were unfairly prosecuted. I can not believe this. How many of them have been cancelled? 93 of them have been canceled and we want more people to come forward. We cannot force. people to come forward, we have written to those people, so the post office wrote to those people, uh, um, the people in charge of overturning convictions, they wrote to other people, the CCRC, so we want those people come forward, but we cannot force them.

One of the things that came out of the drama is that people no longer trust the system, they don't trust the system, we want them to come forward, what we implement now is for those people to overturn their convictions, all they have to do. It shows up, you don't even have to file a claim. This is again a new initiative given by this government to say that you do not need to file a claim. We can award you a lump sum of £600,000. You can take the money and walk away without having to prove your claim this whole thing started with a useless computer system ended with blatant lies The top executives at the post office and their agents lied and lied and lied, lied to the MPS, lied to the House of Commons and Lied most importantly of all to complainants, for example, complainants asking for help were told they were the only people who had a problem, there were hundreds who had a problem, they were specifically lied to and deceived , which has led to the assumption that there were going to be prosecutions, criminal prosecutions, does that absolutely support if there is evidence there that people are guilty of a crime, who at the post office, whatever the level, I mean , the evidence is there, it's not me or probably you either, who should judge?

What the police should pursue whether there is a prosecution or not, that is a separate part of our system. I would appreciate it and I also think you know there are other things. Paul Ofel holds a CBE for service to the Post Office. I think the matter should be examined by Mr. B who accepted the offer now. Well, if I have to say: If I were Paul de Anels, I would seriously consider the fact that, ultimately, you bear responsibility for what happened here or the CEO. If I were Paul de anels, I would seriously consider returning it voluntarily right now.

In a sense, in a sense, this drama embarrasses government ministers because this has brought the issue of the post office scandal to the fore and is a 25e. scandal even though the prime minister said on Sunday to Laura Hburg, you know this is a thing of the past, back in the '90s, well, good morning, Susan, I mean, let's make it clear that we have been doing a lot over time on this. The issue fully recognizes that this is a huge miscarriage of justice that has caused enormous pain to a huge number of people and that we have to correct it.

For example, we have already paid £138 million in compensation to 2,700 people, but we recognize we need to go further, which is why yesterday in the House of Commons, Post Office Minister Kevin Holling Rate announced that an independent panel to have independent oversight of those payments. That's why Justice Secretary Alex Chalk. He is currently having discussions with senior people in the justice system to look at ways in which we can further expedite appeals against convictions, the vast majority of which, of course, we are absolutely certain are inappropriate. get them overturned as soon as possible which is your favorite method of doing this, but there seem to be three alternatives.

Which has? Do you have a favorite method? Yes, I don't think so, Richard, good morning, I don't think so. It is right for me to start thinking about what path I think we should take because these are sensitive matters that it is right for the Justice Secretary, Alex Chalk, to look at very closely and closely, working with senior judges and so on. But the priority here and what I am absolutely convinced we will see now is a very quick and rapid move to ensure that the government does absolutely everything it can to make sure that we get to those situations where too many people have got it wrong. condemned with all the terrible consequences that come with it, not just financially but also in terms of people's reputations, their standing in their communities, the effect on mental health, all those things that demand swift action and that is why we are taking those steps and what about the cost of compensation, we were discussing this.

I don't know if you heard this part of the discussion two or three minutes ago. It is we, the taxpayers, who will pay this compensation. Why should it be us? Why not? Whether it's this multi-billion-dollar-profit Mak's Fujitsu company that's at the center of the scandal, well, in yesterday's statement, Kevin Holling Rate made it very clear on this point that it won't necessarily be the taxpayer here who takes the tad. We now have an independent investigation underway that the government organized that will reach its conclusions and begin to determine answers to important questions such as, for example, what is the culpability of Fujitsu, which is the company that, as we know, was responsible. for this particular system, and drawing the conclusions from that, government ministers will have to make decisions about who should pay, but I don't think there is any working assumption at the moment that this is necessarily going to be just the taxpayer, is it?

Can I ask you to talk about yourself? you know this needs to be done quickly and quickly and it's delicate and those discussions are ongoing your government has been in place since 2010 and this miscarriage of justice continued until 2015 at what point did a minister look? these convictions because we have to point out that the government is the sole shareholder of the post office, you effectively run the post office, you are responsible for it, hundreds and hundreds of these people, innocent people were being prosecuted on the basis of David Davis. A colleague of yours told a single lie.

How come the government didn't notice that you were asleep on duty? investigation into SN uh wi Williams, who is a very distinguished former High Court judge, to the bottom of exactly what happened, so we have acknowledged that it continued to happen while you were in government for a number of years, yes, but, but We have also As I said, we have already made, for example1, compensation payments worth £138 million to 2,700 people, so it is not that we have suddenly arrived at this issue; We are talking about 13 years of government, three of which or a number actually. Five years during which these prosecutions continued.

I ask again why the ministers in charge of the post office when you first came to government didn't go and wait a minute, there are hundreds of people prosecuted here, 700 people can't. and those are the ones who are condemned, not all of them can be criminals, what is happening here? Well, you are rightly asking important and fundamental questions, and there are many others, and that is why we have created the investigation so that the job of the investigation is to get to the bottom of exactly those questions who knew what when what action was taken what action was not taken who is responsible eh, we have discussed the issue of, for example, Fujitsu's role in all of this, we need to get to the bottom of that, but we have to do it in the detailed and forensic way that an investigation takes carry out their work and that is why we have public consultations and it is a statute investigation, which I do not understand and I think many viewers won.

I don't understand if there is a minister for the post office, is there? You do not know? You say you established an investigation and we know you established an investigation. You're doing a really important job, but there was a minister responsible for the Post Office at the point you came into government and he's been in government since 2010 and, as I say, those prosecutions were going on at the time, are you? Why didn't the Post Office Minister say when he came to government, my God, what is happening here because people are saying that there is a miscarriage of justice, they are saying that they were unjustly convicted and yet these convictions and these prosecutions still favor continue those ministers have questions to answer, so the Susanna inquiry is the vehicle that will answer those questions and I and there will be In the meantime, there is a lot of speculation about the answer to that question and many others, but I think the reason we have A legal inquiry is a serious investigation led by a distinguished judge who looks at all these issues in great detail and we will get the answers.

But I don't think it's unreasonable.historic deficit scheme where people will get a minimum of £75,000 and that would be the same for group litigation orders, now obviously there will be some cases where people will want more than that and that is absolutely their right and there is a independent process to make sure that they can ensure that those complaints are resolved appropriately with such clarity. The Horizon scandal arose because of a computer glitch we were talking about earlier and it certainly feels like the answer to what his forensic accountants have presented as a claim this has not been based simply on an idea of ​​what he feels that deserves this has been forensically studied to make sure every penny is accounted for and can be justified computers just said no again so whatever you are saying with the government compensation plans they are failing why not just turn to these sub-masters and sub-post-masters who have already suffered enough and say: "you know what we're going to see in this"? and we will make sure you get the money you deserve, that is exactly what we are doing Ben, that is just one scenario, although it has changed and it is one sixth of what you submitted as a claim, that is not what you.

Doing so is cruel and yes there is a process to follow if people believe they are entitled to it as it absolutely could be more than the 75,000 in his case this was the group litigation order I believe he is. part of them won millions of pounds in compensation turned out to be 20,000 each the majority law not exactly because yes exactly exactly that because the cost was at the cost of the litigation, so that is something that the government is correcting at the moment Obviously there is a process to follow to check that we arrive at the correct number.

I am confident that we will do it and we will make sure we do it. If these processes don't work, we will change them again because we absolutely know why Al B. I have to go back and fight this one more time after everything they have already been through. Why should he and his attorneys and his forensic accountants match every penny he asks for in compensation? Why shouldn't that be handed over? Why should he? I have to fight back again. Look, you're right and we need to make sure these processes are as easy as possible for the administrators and email managers who have been through so much.

I know Kevin Holling, who is the brilliant Business Minister who has been fighting. by the way, for compensation for postmasters for many, many years, long before the brilliant drama was shown on ITV and he will make sure that people get what they deserve in a timely manner when they deserve it and we are taking extreme measures in government to make sure that happens, so you acknowledge this morning that one-sixth of what you asked for is not what Mr. Bates deserves. I have to let the processes happen and move forward, but we have recognized as a government that things are not happening and he Yes, we have recognized as a government that the processes have not developed as quickly as they should, that people have not received the level of compensation that they deserve and that is absolutely what we are fixing, but I am sorry that this happened yesterday.

This didn't happen years ago. This has happened since everyone saw the scandal on TV and since the Prime Minister said everyone will be fairly compensated. This happened yesterday afternoon at one minute to 5. Are you not doing this in a fair or timely manner? I acknowledge that I totally understand what you are saying. What I would say to you, Suzanna, is that we can't make things happen overnight in government, particularly with the post office, we have to pass emergency legislation, by the way. It's never really been done before other than we have some precedents that go back to the war, uh, which is what we're doing and it can't happen right away to say this overnight, this hasn't happened. been overnight for some of these people.

It's been going on for over 20 years. I mean the reality of this and the fight that Alan Bates and all those sub postmasters have had has not happened overnight, he lodged the claim after Susanna's PM said they would. be compensated fairly as this is clearly not happening they are clearly not being compensated fairly as I said Ben there are several things going on there is the Horizon investigation that is happening right now which is established a few years ago. there's the annulment sentencing scheme where people get £600,000 as a minimum and can get more as a result of that, we're passing legislation to make sure people get that more quickly.

There are two other plans where we have increased the amount people receive. getting a minimum as a result of these schemes is something that can be analyzed further as part of an investigation, so we are doing a lot here. I absolutely commit to you that we will continue to look at this and see if we are getting okay, but we are making a huge effort, we are making a historic effort to make sure that these injustices that are completely horrible are rectified as much as we can, it's not about see if you're doing it right, you clearly are. misunderstanding it, I mean that's simple, you can see when it's the laughable sixth Croland, yes I understand I think this will be at least £775,000 um, there's obviously more that he feels is owed in this case and that he has to leave.

We're going through a process now to get through that and like I said, Kevin will keep this all under review. Have you added up how much lawyers earn in all this? obviously there are a lot of lawyers involved on all sides of this um I imagine it's going to be a pretty large number, although it certainly will be, and it would be interesting if we could figure out the bill so far, because I imagine if you split that up among the deputy directors from the post office, they may have gotten something resembling fair compensation, we'll take a look at those figures if you can, if you can get them, and also from Fujitsu, what are you going to ask Fujitsu to add to the compensation bill?

There is currently an investigation underway that will look into the role Fujitsu played in this. It is absolutely right that we let that investigation take place and we understand where the responsibility for this lies and then the government will follow up on all investigations. recommendation The Post Office is still chasing subpostmasters for thousands of pounds due to ongoing failures with that Horizon it system. It's just amazing, isn't it to think it's still happening with Deputy Postmaster Jacqueline Franklin? The scandal is now in its second generation. After her mother Lillian's final years were marred by repeated unexplained deficits, we'll talk to her in a moment, but since Lillian died in 2019, Jacqueline says she has repaid thousands of pounds, adding another complex layer to the scandal of 2017.

The Horizon system was upgraded well two years later Landmark versus Post Office baiting rule found the software contained glitches and errors B added that the system was now robust after the upgrade Five years in Sub sub postmasters They claim they are still being haunted by mysterious deficiencies and Jacn joins us from his post office in Warick this morning here in the studio we have Nick Wallace, the author of The Great Post Office Scandal, who consulted on the ITV drama Mr Bates versus the post office. We'll ask Nick about the broader context, in a second. but first of all, welcome Jacqueline to the program.

Thank you very much for coming and speaking with us today. Your mother, Lillian, you were telling us. She ran the post office for over 40 years and when she suddenly passed away when she was 70, you took over, but in the final period of her public service at that post office in, you know, where you grew up , she was facing these terrible worries and concerns about the accounts not adding up and having to use her own money to make up for the shortcomings, what was that like for you and her and how do you feel looking back on what happened in those last years for her?

They said it was human error and she thought mistakes were being made. for them, so we spent ours taking out the paperwork, going through the paperwork, going through all the paperwork, going through all the cash because she was convinced that something had gone wrong with something they had done, so she spent many, many hours with the monthly bills trying to figure it out. where things went taking the paperwork home looking at the next day um she was worried that she was putting in so much money that she ended up um with the post office um being so substituted for her salary and living off her pension because uh she just thought it was something that they had done and when she passed away in 2019, I think she was 76, did she have any idea that so many other people were in the same situation as her, did she understand it or feel it? alone, she was aware of the system shorthand that was happening with a prosecution, she decided not to show up because she was worried about having to go to court, we explained to her that someone would represent her, but at that age, um, she didn't fully understand that she wouldn't be the one going to court.

She was very sorry, so she rejected it because I know she had motor neurone disease, didn't she, she was terminally ill. illness and in the last years of her life she was still trying to figure all this out and having to go through something so terrible must have been horrible for her because we were going back and forth to the doctors at the hospital trying to get a diagnosis uh for the illness she she was losing weight um she felt very very sick but she kept it hidden people were congratulating her on the weight loss um and she was trying to continue because that was her belief that you didn't take time off CL didn't close because she was afraid of closing , he didn't even close when it snowed because he thought he had to be here because that's what he always understood with the contract.

He didn't realize, I'm sorry, Jacqulyn, I think what will be shocking to our viewers, you know, because we've all seen the TV show and we think this must be something from the past and something that your mom had to deal with. , but you've still been dealing with deficiencies that are unexplainable, we're still dealing with issues with the Horizon computer system over the last few years, it's still happening now, that's right, it's still happening, the other day there were three receipts that went out alone while Clark was serving and that has happened three times recently. um and you're trying to serve with a screen that suddenly turns off and it's like what happened um you know we don't know and then you're trying to log back in, get the transaction receipt and marry paperwork to try to see if was done uh on one occasion we definitely found out that there was no record of the transaction so they looked at it remotely and they also couldn't see that the transaction had taken place so what about the post? office, so when you're pointing this out and saying that there are these deficiencies, but obviously they don't, you know they're nothing that you can say has happened because you think about what happened in the Beyond that, they would be understanding and understanding to the regard.

They have changed their attitude towards the help desk. They are a little more helpful, but I get emails saying the issue is resolved. They closed the case when in fact we. I've had cases that still need to be reviewed and I got on the phone the other day and discussed something because they closed it and it clearly wasn't right, well let's get to Nick now, I mean Nick this is shocking. Know? We've all seen the drama, we've seen the documentaries, you know what's going on and it's been a national scandal. How is this still happening now that people like Jacqueline have to put money into their pockets to make up for these shortfalls, Horizon has been updated as you say since 2017, but that doesn't mean it's foolproof, robust, it doesn't mean foolproof, the 2019 Judgment said that Horizon is yet to contain bugs, errors and defects that have the potential to cause problems with branch accounts, that is clearly what is happening, the problem that the post office has since the introduction of the Horizon it system, no has been able to distinguish between fraud and error, and still can't, and the sub The postmaster is in a really difficult position where they are contractually responsible for their branch accounts but not in control of them.

Horizon has control of the post office at Fujitsu, so now they don't have control of their own accounts. has changed and you hear from the top that the post office is changing the way they approach things, but unless some postmaster starts talking about the problems they are having, gets representation and puts pressure on the post office and say "look at it according to this ruling, this great ruling of 2019, you know, you have to show that these errorsthey are my responsibility and if the post office can't do it I should cancel them, but the problem they have about them is that the post office can eliminate the position of sub postmaster from anyone they choose, which is why many of them are just compensating for deficits.

How many more do you think there could be like Jacqueline, who have just made up the deficits and who find themselves in deficits on a regular basis? Well, there are thousands of sub-post offices and the horizon system touches them all. This is a complex and expanding ecosystem. This network is going to have errors within it, so we could be talking about hundreds. We know that there are three that have worked. The album, apart from Jacqueline, in the last few weeks I filmed with a chat called Steve Phillips in South Wales, who basically had a £4,000 discrepancy and went to the post office and said, look, this has nothing to do with it. see with me and finally the publication.

The office canceled it, but that was because it had strong backing and strong representation, so just to understand Nick, just to be a little clear about this, what you're saying is that now, unless the post office can prove their fraud, then the carelessness, negligence or error on the postmasters, then it is not the fault of the post um Master and they should not invest their money to compensate for the short drops at all, but the problem is that you have this asymmetry of power, the post office has all the letters you have. Legal Firepower has the debt recovery department, so postmasters are on their own, working 19 to a dozen, often for very little money, they don't have the time to get the representation and legal support they need to fight this.

There is a real problem here, but what about the challenge for the government? I mean, the government has suddenly stepped in and said we are going to pay compensation, but shouldn't the government also be saying that, as a major shareholder of the post office, you have to change the way you do this, right? Are there any changes the government could ask the post office to make that would improve things now? Yes, but the problem is that the money is disappearing. network and no one knows where it goes, it could be fraud, it could be employee theft, it could be organized crime gangs stealing the ATMs, it could be a computer error, they can't get to the bottom of this, but they rely on the sub postmasters to have losses rack up within their accounts without proof that it is definitely their fault is wrong yes on an ongoing basis ok thank you very much Jacqueline just briefly for you.

I mean, you know this must have been horrible for you, how would you sum up the impact this has had? in your life if mom's life has changed, so much that you know that living on the pension later in life and thinking that she has to continue until the end was horrible to see, for me it was a case that the day she died , I took Above and with the mentality of the post office was that you just carried on regardless, um, so I haven't had any free time to cry or anything, we just carried on, um and the relationship with the office needs to be reset, the relationship with the office needs to be reset. of post offices and the postmasters and us.

We definitely need more money for what we are doing, we just don't get paid enough to live on, basically, thanks to Jacqueline, we will make it clear that this still needs to be reset to Government Minister Tom Tuanh from HQ when I speak to him . One hour and thanks to you for sharing his story and also to Nick Wallace for his brilliant campaign journalism over many years bringing this to light and helping to put together the ITV documentary. It is his courage that has made this difference. A Post Office spokesperson told us that the current version of the Horizon system introduced as of 2017 has proven to be robust compared to comparable systems, but they say we are not at all complacent about that and continue to work with our postmasters to identify e invest. in improvements Current mailmasters who have concerns about the current Horizon system are encouraged to bring them to our attention so we can assist them.