One on One - Wole Soyinka

Hello and welcome as you become the first African to receive the Nobel Prize in Literature, you gained the international recognition necessary to validate your role as a social and political watchdog in your country this week in a meeting with writer, critic and poet Wallace Ainka, Born into an extended family. As an activist, he soon discovered the importance and impact of taking a stand, but W Shena's early years saw some of Nigeria's most turbulent times as he struggled with a series of oppressive leaders in the post-colonial British independence state. Guided by his politically active parents and a family that combined modern Christian and traditional Nigerian beliefs and values, the young shinka benefited from Western and Eastern influences and was educated in the arts in Nigeria and Britain.

Upon graduating from university, he had already produced award-winning literature and theater and received public praise and began to add his voice of political dissent against corrupt leadership in Africa, particularly in Nigeria, in 1986 he received the Nobel Prize in Literature, becoming the first black African to receive the honor, although Shinka points out that the Algerian author of the 1957 Nobel Prize, Albert Kamu, was also African, although he remained a formidable voice. On African issues, Trinka says the time has come for the younger generations to take the lead and give the troubled continent the chance it deserves. It's great to spend some time with you.

Thank you. A pleasure. I know you say with good humor that perhaps your role has been important. Diminished, you don't have much to do now in Nigerian politics and society and maybe it's time for the younger Lions to come to Raw, but do you see someone who has really taken on the mantle of what you've been doing for almost half a century? Century, well, they approached it exactly the same way. I mean, one thing I tell young people is that they have to define their own methodology and approach to the problems of Nigeria, even when I formed the political party. which, by the way, backfired on me because I realized they weren't willing to let me go and I kept saying, listen, it's you, this is your party, it's yours, but no, no, no, no, they wanted to. to run for election, they wanted me to come and I campaigned for them and they wanted to put my picture on posters and I said they can't do that, I'm retiring, but I think you really started that political party and we talked at that time more to make a point clear that to really be a serious Contender, wasn't it for me to be a serious contender?

No, no, I was never serious or unserious. I was never a contender, but frankly I was distressed by recycling old, worn-out material with very well-cured, very rich material. The same old thieves, rogues, who were a kind of vicious circle, came into office to steal money that was then used to put them back in office, or they are substitutes, clones and this spiral continued forever and the young people come to say you know, come on to me and tell me what we do about it and um, so I said, okay, there's a kind of movement that we can turn into a party, let's do it and you have it, so what motivates you, what drives you, what is your passion today in day.

I've wondered about that quite often, you know because, by the way, I said for myself several benchmarks for retirement, one was 49. I remember, actually, yeah, you can laugh, but I'm there. Actually, seriously, I thought I could retire completely at 49 and I spend my time completely writing, lecturing on things like that, but you know, when your environment is dirty and dirty, whether morally or physically or whatever, so I have the kind of temperament that makes it impossible for me to function in what I really want to do. And so part of being involved in politics is really if you like a selfish cleansing of my environment so that I can do what I really want to do, it's all very personal over the years, you've directed your fury towards sort of politics and culture of black Africa. failures, why do you think the continent has followed that path for so long?

Well, there are multiple reasons, firstly, in many African countries the colonial peers did not leave earlier, that is, before they left, they left substitutes behind and, usually, those substitutes were the most backward, the most feudal in thinking. , the most reactionary and of course once there they were not willing to let it go and that has been the history of many of the colonial um former colonial nations uh on the African continent, the problem of solving it means that these The people of these young people, when they make a breakthrough, they don't start from scratch, they start from less, they have to clean up the old Brigade and, of course, they are very, very tenacious, very tenacious and very powerful, so it's a spiral of bad leadership, is it?

Has Africa not managed to redefine itself in the first decade of the 21st century? Moving away from what we call the three dimensional picture of death, disease and disaster, there have been some encouraging examples, for example, Tanzania under ineri that is one even though Tanzania is one of the poorest and was in one of the poorer countries uh in shows what could be done even with minimal resources uh you have the example of course of the man I call the Avatar, Nelson Mandela, then you have young people like Sankara, for example, who know before he was killed , then you have Not So Glamorous, quote unquote, success stories like Ghana, which got rid of dictatorship and really hasn't just been pushing. the cause of democracy in its own way, but it is actually renewing its economy, so there have been examples here and there and of course in terms of social improvement, tackling diseases, there has been a lot of commitment, yes, no It's all gloomy now.

I want to take you back to your birth in Nigeria, in the town of abauto uh in the oun region of western Nigeria, still ruled by the British at that time, and I wonder if you know what through your young eyes you saw of the place. Well, at that time I saw the front line first hand, the front line nationalists and, if you like radicals, I was lucky, for example, to have been quite close to my uncle, the Reverend A Ramti, and his wife , Bar Umum Kti, who led the women's charge. against a corrupt and very oppressive monarch and I actually ousted him from the throne and at that age I was very small so I was a very useful messenger to move between the legs of people and the police etc. and deliver messages. my mother was involved in that she was a lieutenant, if you like her, Mrs.

Scoy, so I started teething, my political teeth quite early. I enjoyed it, I liked it, but the most important thing is that I heard and understood what the problems were from a very At a very young age I was able to discern in life the political good from the political bad now your family was quite prominent in the region and of course , your father was the director of the Samuel aod A school and you called him sa and something like that. jokingly essay mhm yes yes I actually thought it was an essay, you know, because her friends come over and S essay essay essay and because I was always writing essays at school and it's stuck and your mother Grace, why did you nickname her the wild Christian?

She was a wild believer, she was really a wild believer, she was the kind of person that her Christianity ruled everything if she was pouring, I'll tell you this, if she was pouring oil from a cup into a bottle and this is a image. I've never forgotten it uh and she had pretty steady hands but she did slip a little and spill a little oil to say oh my sins are many uh God is angry with me can you imagine it's a matter of pouring oil from a bowl into a bottle, that was the kind of person she was, so I found her Christianity on the wild side and that's why I call her a wild Christian and of course she was also wild when it came to discipline, she beat me up, you know?

She was a bit of a difficult child and of course she was also the activist in your family. Yes, she was. You know, I took her sometimes. You mentioned this topic that she was very Christian, but you had that interesting mix of indigenous Christian and Yuba religious beliefs that were mixed in your family, how do you think that shaped your view of faith? um, I wouldn't say he mixed that much with my immediate parents, but with my grandparents, my grandfather was an absolute orisha person and when he converted, when he converted, he never gave up his um, his true you know, or he was a good Christian. , he even had a Christian title, etc., but he never abandoned the previous gods and what I saw as a child with my imagination uh that lent itself a lot to merging images what I saw was that uh the saints seemed to me the same as the masquerades and this is the way I related to both Christianity and traditional religion in other words, I had an eclectic vision. uh close up on the freaks when he was a kid and the eclectic family members, you're uh's cousin, afrob's father also beat fakti and I wonder what kind of relationship, if any of you ever developed with him, oh Yes, I was studying in England. at the same time as me, he was a younger brother and, on my first appearance on the British stage, when I had a night per appearance, I mean my work, when I had a half-act night in an act and then the first half it was poetry, the reading actually took him to a company with his saxophone to come read, and that was the first time the boy was on a theater stage and that was also my debut, if you like, on a bridge theater stage and we were quite, we did a lot of U stuff, he with his music, me with my theater and at one point we shared, we called it Commonwealth, we had a big ramble, kind of uh, it was an apartment and everyone went in there, I can't remember how we paid the rent, we shared everything that existed, you know, our friends brought food and, oh, it was a wonderful period, he was also an activist, he was quite active and, in addition, he became an activist much later during this period.

I'm talking about the late 50s and early 60s, for example, the guy was into music, nothing more, he didn't believe in any politics, he thought it was a waste of time, he didn't understand what it was about and he had his uh saturi. When he came to the United States, I met a woman activist of his and that's when F began to change. You had most of your secondary and secondary education in Nigeria and you were actually a very good student, won literature prizes etc. You were thinking about what you would do as a kind of career, well, like all young people, I went through several pH phases.

I was going to be a sailor, I was going to be a pilot, um and then my parents wanted me to go. I was a lawyer and I didn't really care, I rather liked to argue, so it all seemed natural. So I didn't really have the notion of being a full-time writer, which I'm not to this day, by the way, I still have to teach for a living, but at least be a professional writer, so I was going to do a little bit of everything and I never decided until I came to England and started reading a lot more and meeting writers and then developing my Writing ironically, you had some material broadcast on Nigerian radio stations before you left for England, didn't you?

Yes, I am honored to have written the first radio play for the young Nigerian Broadcasting Service. I would hate to see that play today. but anyway, but I was broadcasting, I remember it very well and then I went to university in England in 1954, you were there to study English literature, how did you adapt to that moving from Nigeria to England? Oh, with the greatest ease, the only thing. I never adapted to the cold, it was the cold uh outside of that um it was from student life to student life and uh once I found out that white people didn't have Tales or Hooves I got along pretty well, you know well, now some of the work that you wrote while you were studying england your first major piece actually in 1958, the swamp dwellers and shortly after that you had the lion and the jewel, it was actually broadcast in nigeria while you were in the uk, that's right, yes there is one. um um Mr.

Jeffrey Axworthy was in the English Department of um at the U of I and he came and somehow he got the play and the next thing I knew he sent it to um uh it was performed at the university but during that time also He sent stories to the radio station in Nigeria. I kept my contact with them, but I think it was indisputable who took the work from there for my memory and in fact, before returning to Nigeria, you had a The brief marriage also did not work out with a University student yes yes yes yes no no It didn't work, but in 1960 in Nigeria and uh and you were studying theater, I think then I was African I was researching traditional dramatic forms and I was touring all over the place.

In the late 1960s, it was a very turbulent time in Nigeria and, uh, you were a respected figure and you were starting to get involved with some of the issues that were going on and you got caught up. in the midst of the bfist region effort and briefly declaring to separate, tell me what happened because you ended up going from a mediator to becoming someone who was considered a traitor and a troublemaker well, there was a coup, let's begin. From there, very quickly there was a coup d'état, the coup was justifiably described as, to some extent, unilateral, in other words, the result of it was that the appearance pitted a part of the nation againstagainst another, so there was a retaliation killing very, very killing three waves, at which point the EOs were justifiably considered outcasts from the rest of the nation and no longer felt like they belonged, which is why, in my opinion, the beant They were absolutely right to have been successful at that stage and I went across to see them and persuade them not to succeed if you know if it was only possible to join forces with progressives from other parts of the nation to form what we call a third force to resist both the government in power as well as Ba's extreme nationalists who did not sit well with the federal government.

On the other hand, they accused me of buying weapons for bfra. All of that, you know, is nonsense, which is why I was incarcerated during that time in prison. Hey, you wrote some of your most famous works too. I guess they didn't give you writing paper or pens. and from utensils to instruments to be able to write, so you actually ended up writing on toilet paper, including the man who died, yes, yes, everything was done to break my mind, keeping me in complete isolation, deprived of writing materials, reading material, uh. but I managed to make some ink and a pen and of course toilet paper and then they supplied me with cigarettes and I also wrote, you know, those things, the paper that was inside they didn't realize the huge volume of toilet. role that you were going through well, I think they must have thought that I had diarrhea and sympathized in 1986 the Nobel committee uh recognized you as a man who, from a broad cultural perspective and with poetic nuances, models the drama of existence and awarded you the Nobel.

The award in literature makes him the first African to receive that award, why does he think it took him so long for the rest of the world to recognize this talent in Africa? I don't know, because there was already enough literature coming out of Africa, so it's not. as if you don't deserve it, writers, why do you have to ask those gray men from the Literary Academy of the University of the Nobel institution. You dedicated your Nobel Prize to Nelson Mandela, who was imprisoned at the time and spoke out against the The racist speech you made in the past must address his present is in some ways credited with building such a global public emotion that it ultimately led to the serious fall of apartatism through the release of Nelson Mandela in 1992 is that case, do you think it created that kind of momentum? uh no, no, it was just part of I don't think that in itself did it, but I think from conversation discussions and so on, I think that's the case. played its small part in galvanizing world opinion at least.

I like to think so. I think that along with the numerous praises, of course, you faced criticism from time to time, one of them is that you write and communicate in English and sometimes you are too much of a Europhile, how do you address those critics well? I always tell them that I was colonized in English, the language that the common language of about 300 languages ​​in Nigeria happens to be the colonial language. English, the language for me is just a tool. just a tool, it's a means of communication, nothing more, and you can also restore that tool, even to those to whom it belongs correctly, so I've never had any anger about it, the important thing for me is to be able to communicate the way I be more convenient the language of C in Nigeria and C have been part of my adult life, you know, and the adult life of most Nigerians, the language of the coup is English, the language of the markets is the type of broken English English with a touch English use it as you want, but I also write in Eura, you know, little poems, my songs, etc.

I also write in euro. Your writings, of course, have been so frank that you have stood your ground and that, of course, has gotten you going. You are in danger so many times you were sentenced to death in absentia. You've had to know, you live in exile and I wonder when, when, you know, people have thought that maybe the Nobel Prize would give you some kind of protection. I know. You yourself were quoted as saying: uh, some people think the Nobel Prize makes you bulletproof. I never had that illusion. Do you still feel like there is some kind of threat to you? uh oh yeah yeah uh but it's a manageable threat for you.

For example, I know that in recent times there has been a very harsh repression against religious fundamentalists. I mean, you must have read about all the killings that are happening in Nigeria as we speak now and as an intellectual, someone you at least know who. It has a historical meaning. I have always considered it my duty to trace this phenomenon back to its original cause and bring forth the causes to push people's faces into the mess they have created, whether thoughtlessly or through hegemonic thinking through political traps. opportunism I have observed the growth of extremism, you know, a really brutal kind in Nigeria.

I mean, I grew up in the lovely religious atmosphere of a uh Harmony of Believers and then grew old in the reversal of what I should. It will be when that harmonized existence should be strengthened all the time as people become more sophisticated globally and see what is happening and the opposite, and that is why I have said things that you know directly and I know that there are certain areas, I mean, who have threatened them. I've said it, I know them, I'm not worried about them at all, but I have to continue, you know, informing, you know, and educating and reminding people because people like to forget that in 1994 you became Goodwill Ambassador of UNESCO, in fact to promote Africa. culture uh human rights freedom of expression media and communication how much have you been able to use that position? um, it's first of all, it's not a very formal thing, it's a question of where you can do what you can and evolve UNESCO I have been able to draw UNESCO's attention to a number of cultural events that have been overlooked.

The educational program, for example, in which I participated, is an integral part of a single normal activity. The only difference is. that you can do it with the support of UNESCO once you contact them, they listen to you of course, you have spent so many years away from Nigeria in exile, you know you are under threat etc., how much do you know that is broken? I suppose how much your connection with your Homeland has made you suffer. Well, my problem, in fact, is that I have never failed at home, anywhere except at home, so I took Nigeria with me, much to the distress of my family.

I have never felt a break if the expression I used when I was forced into exile was that I was simply on a political sabbatical and will eventually return home, and I have returned. since then and uh, I don't think I've missed a beat in reintegrating physically, it's not that you feel like there's been any price to pay, you know, for taking a stand, you know, the fact that you have death threats, the fact that you have Exile. Has the price been too high? Yes, that takes its toll in many ways. You become Enad, but at the same time you learn to maximize your periods of um of rest, of creativity, you know, you create, you develop an experience totally. new pace of work, you know, that's one of the first things you do and I think the biggest price has been not being able to do what you want to do when you want to do it and how you want to do it. do it, uh, the number of times, for example, when I would rather be in my uh Studio Workshop, as I call it, in Nigeria, working there instead of in the United States, uh, racking up frequent flying miles, you know, it's just useful for my children. create a foundation for them frequent family uh Quad Frequent Family Foundation F things like that um so there are things that bother you But in the end you survive what goals and objectives have you set for yourself for the next few years um I have a job and I'm things that I'm working on it, yeah I have someone, Target Golden Target is really being able to completely retreat and just look at the rest of the world, well, you say you want to be buried in a cactus patch in your house, yeah, uh, but I wonder what kind of Legacy you have would you like to leave behind?

How would you like people to remember you? Oh no, that's a problem for those I leave behind, they will decide what kind of legacy I left behind, no, I don't bother with that, no. not that they extract wherever they want well shka thank you very much what a pleasure your mother welcome thank you