Mothers accused of killing their four babies | 60 Minutes Australia

Is there a more hated woman in Australia than Kathleen? She has phobia for 10 years, one by one, she killed all

four

of her

babies

. Her crimes are so inconceivable that it is still difficult to understand how and why she did it until you consider that it may be that Kathleen Fahlberg was wrong. She

accused

that she has always maintained her innocence and tomorrow a judicial investigation that reviews her conviction begins, could lead to her freedom after 15 years in prison in the hope that it is true. Is Carol Mouthy more than anyone else? She knows what Kathleen endured because incredibly she was also

accused

of murdering

four

of her

babies

, the two cases are remarkably similar right down to the expert witnesses called to determine the truth, but while Kathleen was convicted as Australia's worst serial killer , the case against Carol was dismissed.

Carol Massey is accused but never convicted of

killing

her four babies. While this mother believes she deserves overwhelming sympathy for her loss, she is instead dogged by suspicions that she killed all four murders in five years. This is the first time Carol has spoken publicly about the sudden deaths of her children sitting here in front of you today. someone who has suffered unimaginable pain and loss or I'm sitting across from a deeply disturbed person who is capable of doing the most monstrous things by committing murder four times. Who am I sitting across from someone who is dealing with an unimaginable amount of pain?

I will do anything for My babies, the center of this tragedy is the question of what to believe. A medical expert says it's homicide. I do not have any doubt. So you're saying Carroll Matthew got away with it. Yes I think so. Another expert says there is no evidence. of foul play I think it would be too simple to suggest that just because there have been a series of deaths we can use that evidence and that evidence alone to say that someone is guilty of serial murder, four deaths in one family were enough to convict New The woman from South Wales, Kathleen, has a phobia, but is not close enough to condemn Carol Mathy.

Surprisingly similar cases, even the same experts, but one woman walks free and the other is sent to jail. Now Carol has given up her anonymity by joining forces with phobia supporters to help free Kathleen, a woman. she fears that she has been falsely accused and unjustly convicted; It is worrying that in one place the sentence can be handed down that keeps someone in prison technically for 30 years and then in Carol's case and in the end it did not even go to trial because the judge I did not say myself that no, we will not accept the findings from Jacob and Shania's experts on Chloe and Joshua.

It's a terrible list of deaths between 1998 and 2003. Carol had and lost four babies, so he was always happy and his smile gave no indication of what was to come. Jacob was the first to die at 7 months. how did it go? We found him one morning, yes, he wasn't breathing. Two years later, nine-week-old Chloe was found dead in her crib. The forensic pathologist said that both she and Jacob. suffered sudden infant death syndrome known as SIDS two years after Joshua at three months stopped breathing at the time it was thought his death was caused by a blood infection we were actually shopping at the time and returned to the car and we picked him up from the stroller and he wasn't breathing less than a year later Shanaya was found dead in her bed she was almost three and a half karemera exactly what I was thinking but I think the main thing is that it can't happen too much again older for Seed pathologists couldn't say what caused Shanna's death for her lost little siblings in five years was shocking and it's still extraordinarily weird looking at the photos of her children here it's like an album of grief this: my baby is still a even though they are no longer there.

You will always remain my babies, no matter what happens and you cannot forget anything. The children's section of any cemetery is the saddest part. It is heartbreaking to think about mourning a dead child. It is inconceivable to lose him for more than five years. Buried Carole. two sons and two daughters, says she welcomed her children's autopsies and wanted answers about why

their

lives ended so prematurely, but it was Shania's unexplained death that finally raised questions for police and launched a murder investigation if you have an object like a pillow. or a cushion or something, then you might not see any signs at all, leading forensic pathologist dr.

David Ransom is deputy director of the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine based at Melvin Mortuary. It was here that he performed the autopsy on three-and-a-half-year-old Shania. What determined the cause of her death? This man determined that I could not find the cause. death raised suspicions in itself, it doesn't raise suspicions, it just added to the overall question of why her children had died and we were looking for concrete evidence that would let us know that there was something more than a natural process to be able to give them to the children. investigators something to start investigating and we just couldn't find, even though there was no evidence of foul play on any of the four children, the police were still convinced that they had been murdered by

their

mother Carol to prove their case, they looked for the opinion. like other interstate and international experts, including American pathologist dr.

Janice Pavan, as far as I'm concerned, there is no condition that we know of that can cause children to die without any evidence. Her opinion of Carol Methi was damning. In my opinion, it was clearly consistent with silicon or asphyxiation. Would you accept that? there is no evidence of that I don't disagree that there is no evidence of suffocation because it is well known that a baby can be suffocated without a trace when trying to determine the innocence or guilt of a parent accused of murdering their baby. The challenge for investigators is the lack of concrete physical evidence of what actually caused that baby's death, whether the baby died of natural causes or was deliberately asphyxiated.

The evidence is the same. Generally there are none. There are no brands. Nothing that distinguishes between SIDS and homicide. There is no forensic evidence, there will always be lingering doubts. I think what we have faced in babies is that they often do not show at autopsy significant degrees of the natural cause of death that might have been present, nor do their tiny bodies bear the marks of murder if they have been asphyxiated. I don't know how you would hold a mother responsible for

killing

all of her babies by suffocating her if you required evidence that you know would never be there, so it is, in essence, the perfect solution. crime, you have committed the perfect crime and I don't know why anyone would want to murder her children, especially since you tried to suffocate Jacob?

No, you killed Chloe, no, you suffocated Joshua in the parking lot, no, in the back of your car. Again Carole, did you do something to hurt Shinai? But armed with the opinion of three medical experts, police arrested Carol in 2005 and charged her with the murder of all of her dead babies. I was able to arrest him. It just came out of nowhere. What was that moment like? It's scary, but I mean, what does the mind say? If you haven't done anything, do you think this will continue for some time? Do you think this is going to clear up pretty quickly?

Look well, well, they will ask you. me and then I'll be home that night but that night always in Joe Carroll was remanded for two months the charges against him came at the same time as New South Wales mother Kathleen phobic lost her appeal she had also been charged with kill her four babies and, like Carol, was the damning opinion of dr. Janice operon that was fundamental to the police case against her. Do I think Kathleen Big or Carol Massey killed her children? Yes, I don't have any questions. In the case of phobic Kathleen, the jury agreed and she was sent to prison for 30 years.

The parallels to Carol's case were striking, which had her terrified. What was your biggest fear? They won't let you out. You've been in that situation for the rest of my life. I was innocent, how do you do that? Yes, I had nothing to hide. People who came would call me Kitty Killer. damning evidence. Please say they could hear you choking your son. Payne's Carroll as a murderer. What was the status of your marriage? Were you trying to get his? attention, but the investigation is completely screwed in all the cases where one would fit the criteria of a staged crime how it goes on in 60

minutes

, then is jalawla a sad or happy place for you, a little happy and sad to the same time because This is where I had my babies and where they spent their time.

His time here was too short at five years. Carol Mathy lost 4 babies. That number alone for a family's children was enough to make them guilty of murder in the eyes of many. What was the community's reaction after the death of your children? People called me Kitty Killer and yeah, just names like that, I heard a lot, which made me not want to go out and I just protected myself from everyone and stayed home. Carol was. Not only is he guilty in the court of public opinion, but in pediatric circles, so many unexplained child deaths confirmed a common belief: the saying was that once a death is a tragedy it is also suspicious and a third time it is murder until proven On the contrary, at Carol's pre-trial hearing, the prosecution relied. on the evidence of three key experts, including American forensic pathologist Dr.

Janice Hoeven said the fourth death in Carol's family cast serious suspicion on the deaths of the other three, even though none of those deaths had raised red flags to the pathologists who performed the original autopsies, including Dr. David Ransom simply found no signs of murder. The question here is: do you give the benefit of the doubt to an imaginary disease or do you make the case that there is a condition that no one has ever seen, except in these really suspicious cases where no one has ever seen a sign or symptom of illness and only the

mothers

are present when they die, if that is not enough combined with the rest of the information that was available in the investigation, then the absence of any evidence does not provide you have the right to follow another path than you have no evidence, even if it happens four times in one family, simply because you don't know what you don't know about the case against Carol.

Not only was it based on medical evidence, prosecutors alleged that Carol's children were ultimately murdered as part of an escalating campaign of attention-seeking behavior to save her difficult marriage to Steven, police said many things that were not true, such as what I did. these to get my husband's attention what was the state of your marriage um it was okay it wasn't exactly the perfect marriage but who sees these days you were trying to get his attention and get his affection no you were trying to keep him in the marriage no , you were trying to seek attention for some other reason No, police say Carol's first attempt to get her husband back came in 1998, four months before the first death in the family, a mysterious fire started in one of the bedrooms of the children when you were the only adult in the house at the time Carol made it out safely with her children, did you start the fire?

No, no, I didn't and I don't have any harder reason to shoot. Why would I want to burn my house down? I don't know unless you were trying to hurt someone or unless again you're trying to get attention, what other explanation could there be for how it was turned on or who turned it on? I have no idea, all I know is that your children and I managed to make it, but aspects of children's lives deaths continue to baffle Carol. She had already lost two babies when Joshua stopped breathing. They were shopping. Joshua was sleeping in his stroller. and even though they provided him with a sleep apnea monitor it wasn't hooked up to him and it wasn't until we got back to the car and I put your anger in the car and went to leave Joshua outside he was all limp and blue around mouth, so she screamed while Carole waited for an ambulance, she says she also didn't start CPR on her lifeless son in the back of her car.

Neither she nor the paramedics could save him. Can I ask why Joshua wasn't connected to his monitor at that time? He used to beep a lot at random times and just start beeping, so I never thought he would need it. Using it in the stroller I'm just going shopping. How do you feel about that decision now? I regret not using it, but then I think that because of how it used to sound all the time, it would have gone off at the right time, it's hard. Saying that you believe Carole Methi suffocated Joshua in the supermarket parking lot of all the cases in which one would fit the criteria for a staged crime, how she set up to fake Shanaya's death, is still just as confusing.

The day before After dying, Shanaya fell off a coffee table. Carole called the ambulance and told the operator that her daughter had stopped breathing and she was unconscious, but the operator says she thought she could hear moaning.background. The suggestion is that those sounds were coming from Shanaya, police say. Listening to that first call you made to the ambulance service when Shinai fell off the table, they could hear the child in the background, what they are saying is that they heard you choking your son. That wasn't true, what could they hear? If that's not what you heard I don't know I don't know I know you remember the TV was on she was crying you weren't in the process of suffocating your son when you called no when the ambulance arrived Shania had regained consciousness and seemed healthy, both of them.

Carol was advised to take the three-and-a-half-year-old girl to the doctor for a check-up, but the next morning her mother found her dead again. Carol, did you do something to hurt Shania? smother her with a pillow did you smother her in any other way for dr. rescue no matter how bad, the circumstantial case came up against Carol, they couldn't find evidence that she or anyone murdered the babies, if you start with nothing, if you start with the finding of an autopsy, that is, I don't have a medical answer for what what happened, then you turn to information that may be unreliable perhaps something someone else said someone else's inference someone else's interpretation of the circumstances can be an incredibly dangerous thing and that is why it agreed that the Supreme Court of Victoria in 2007 murder trial had ended before the judge began during much of the medical evidence of the star witnesses who ruled his conclusions about foul play were not supported by facts the case against Carol Murphy was dropped and she walked free to be charged of such a crime, did you feel at that moment that you had been released on a technicality or not? you think they believed that justice had been done, yes I was glad to have a good legal team and a judge who saw that most of the police case was based on assumptions and that medical experts can be wrong and generally, Proof of that is that one mother walks free and the others are still in jail, so today you still believe that caffeine phobia is a serial killer, but can Carole help save Kathleen?

If I can help in any way, I'm happy to help this one next. in 60

minutes

of that last day when they told you that you don't have to come back here, this will not go to trial. You were thinking? That you were feeling a sense of relief because we didn't have to go back? I must feel incredibly relieved October 24, 2007 and Carol Mathy walks free. Charges of murdering her four babies were sensationally dropped. It was always overwhelming and I guess I was glad it was over, but I still don't know. It hasn't sunk in yet, the judge found that there was no evidence that Carol was a serial killer, but for many the suspicion against her lingered.

People interpreted that smile of yours as someone who thought she had gotten away with it, that she had fooled everyone, I guess. It was just a relief to not have to go back to court every day and it's all over and we can go home and cry and try to move on with our lives. The case against Carol Nathan Victoria collapsed when the judge refused to allow evidence from key prosecution medical witnesses who found her suffocation assumptions were not based in fact, but it was a very different story in New South Wales. the testimony of the same experts, including dr.

Young Janice OTT was heavily relied upon to help convict the phobic Kathleen sentenced in 2003 to 30 years in prison for killing her four babies, a sentence her close friend Tracy Chapman still cannot accept. I think they made a big mistake, but I also know it anyway. there are forces that would like to keep her behind bars because no one wants to admit that someone made the wrong decision fifteen years ago it was the findings of experts that helped put Kathleen behind bars tomorrow after intense public and legal pressure those findings will be put under microscope as a New investigation begins into Kathleen's conviction I know it's not going to be easy, but knowing that we've just done the impossible isn't surprising in itself, she's nervous, it's just scary, you know, they're scared, definitely , she knows the odds are stacked. against her, I guess it's almost a battle between David and Goliath.

Actually, Kathleen and Carol's mass phobia cases are eerily and tragically similar, as Carol Kathleen lost four babies, two boys and two girls, and like Carol Mathy, it was not until the death of Kathleen's fourth. girl Laura that suspicion was raised by the pathologist dr. Alan Kaler that all the children had been deliberately suffocated by their mother when Laura died, she was between 18 and 20 months old, so that is too old for that death to be called sudden infant death syndrome and so a murder investigation began in two year series. You killed him. Did you kill more without physical evidence?

Her children had been suffocated. It was Kathleen's disturbing diaries that the police and prosecutors considered the smoking gun in the case, but all Sara wanted was for her to shut up, and one day she did. The diaries reveal a tortured mind and I would be very surprised if there were not millions of

mothers

who think like this, clinical psychologist Dr. Shamila Beds examined Kathleen Fall Begs' entries in 2013. She told me that, in her opinion, even Kathleen's darkest writings were not enough to condemn her. She is a pretty good-natured baby. Thank God she has saved her from the fate of her brothers.

I think she was warned when she writes about her moods that make her think and do terrible things. Don't think that's an admission. She never said anywhere in the diary that she had murderous rage. She never felt hatred for those children unless there was an explicit confession that I had suffocated the children. with a pillow it is not a confession yes, I would have an angry thought but it was never hurting him from the pathologist point of view based on my experience in my deep work with children who have been injured and killed this case is a homicide series, so today you still think phobic Kathleen is a serial killer.

Yes I believe it. Kathleen should never have been charged and put on trial originally. I think it is a great injustice that must be rectified. Why should she never have been charged? There is no evidence of social justice. Attorney Michael Naught has exhaustively researched the entire large case, written and academic report on how a controversial and now debunked theory permeated the evidence of the cases based on Meadows Catch Death. Theory: a death in the cot is a tragedy, two suspects, three murders and it has been proven to be totally true. erroneous and without any basis, it is not scientific and the case is based on the so-called theory of sudden death was a saying made famous by this man, the British professor Roy Meadow, it was thanks to his theory that several mothers were sent to prison in the United Kingdom.

In the years leading up to Kathleen's trial, it seemed absolutely extraordinary that parents could be so brutal or so cruel to their own children, but a fundamental statistical error in Meadows' law ended up discrediting the theory and overturning multiple murder convictions. Sally's nightmare is over because the Court of Appeal decided that she had been wrongly convicted of killing her two children in the UK alone. Four grieving mothers falsely accused and wrongfully convicted walked free. Finally today justice has been done and my innocence has been proven, but in Australia the same erroneous argument was being applied. used against Kathleen for the great dr.

Op Haven relied on Roy Meadows law in a pretrial hearing arguing that the chance of four unexplained child deaths from natural causes in a family was one in a billion. How does he respond to criticism that he poisoned the waters of the Kathleen phobic trial? I don't know how I could make that criticism refer to the fact that you stated that there was less than a 1 in 1 billion chance that 4 deaths in a family could be attributed to SIDS, that was incorrect. I was quoting earlier literature Roy Meadow I would never say that now, but it wouldn't change my diagnosis.

No, I would just say it would be incredibly rare, but I wouldn't put a number on it. The consequences of using these theories are: putting innocent people in jail and that in our society is abhorrent how great the risk is that phobic Kathleen is one of those innocent people who are in jail. I think there is a high risk. I think there is a high risk that she will be totally innocent if she comes out if she is young. the child is suffocated, very rarely is there evidence of that, normally it would be seen, expert evidence is not accrued, so until there is evidence that that child was murdered, it remains speculative, not what Kathleen's jury did not listen at the time of the phobia.

In the trial there were at least eight such cases around the world and his words from prison should never have happened maybe together our voices can help change those birds then in 60 minutes ask ourselves every day what happened practically Not a day goes by without No wonder what happened to two women accused of the same heinous crimes, one is free, the other behind bars, guilt-ridden or otherwise, both are imprisoned by the pain of their mother and the lasting suspicion of a community of being accused of murdering those children to be seen in that light. That to you is very disturbing and you constantly question yourself and why couldn't they have done more to try to find out and try to stop it if they had found something?

Could they have avoided it? It is extraordinary the parallel circumstances and yet the drastically different outcomes Carroll Massey's court case was dropped for lack of evidence, but incredibly similar evidence led to Kathleen phobic being found guilty of three counts of murder and one of manslaughter. Lawyer Michael does not believe, just as it was for Carol, there are so many reasonable doubts in In the big case, she should never have been convicted, everything indicates that she was a good mother and the problem that arises with these types of cases is that there is no evidence, there is no forensic evidence, there is no DNA evidence, there is no video evidence, there is a denial of the charges. and all we ultimately have is speculation on the part of the doctors and consequently the police, and we know that speculation is simply not good enough.

Kathleen has a phobia, does she deserve the benefit of the doubt? Yes, everyone does it, definitely, as we learn from my case, medical experts can achieve it. She makes mistakes and makes mistakes. Do you believe in the Carroll Murphy case that there were enough doubts? Oh, no, oh, I don't think there was any doubt, but the judge in the Mathy case highly doubted Dr. Janice up has testimony that he wouldn't allow to be heard, he said that the conclusions of three of the Crown's forensic pathologists were not They were based on facts. Do you find it frustrating that your conclusions remain speculative due to lack of evidence?

Well, it depends on what you mean by proof, as you said yourself, if a small child is suffocated, very rarely is there evidence of that, so until there is proof that that child was murdered, it remains speculative, does it? No? I agree with you if all you have is the physical body of a suffocated baby you would normally see nothing even when it is a confessed asphyxiation so either you get a confession or you can sequentially murder your babies and not have any justice for those little girls lives oh you didn't suffocate them right that's that's the whole point here kathleen phobic sentenced to 30 years in jail is a harsh reminder to carol of where she could be today how close do you think you are to going to jail or being declared guilty if you consider that those experts who were ready to testify against him still believe today that he is guilty as the judge said in his report, they based everything on assumptions and not on facts and that just proves that they cannot just make things up and their theory of losing in more than three children is Murder is a mistake.

The investigation reviewing Kathleen Fahlberg's conviction, which begins tomorrow, will focus on medical evidence, specifically the occurrence of three or more deaths in a family due to natural causes. At the time of the phobic trial there had been at least eight cases of this type. to the world that medical experts told the jury they had never heard of such a tragedy for phobics, her close friend Tracy Chapman, that the omission was a terrible injustice. I think it's important to understand that this happens, the notion of four babies dying in her care. in an inexplicable and unexpected way it's almost too big to comprehend it's too big to accept how horrible it is unacceptable as you say and the sad thing for me is that people shoot first ask questions later and there are medical reasons for this why they just don't yet I know enough Tracy believes in Carol Mathy Australia has its own unique opportunity to understand the complex and unknown medical forces at work in cases of multiple infant deaths, but more personally, Carol offers Kathleen something that no one else can fully understand: loss what he said no one knows what he feels the way Carol Mathy feels withthe pain the pain for Kath is more to say that someone else has gone through this is not as unusual as it seems and this lady knows very well how much pain someone feels that awaits Phil for the children if the special investigation goes its way Kathleen can have a new trial or even have their convictions overturned.

What I can do is publicly stand up and support her and say, "I've got you, I hope she doesn't need you." to catch her if she falls, has there ever been a crack in your belief in Kathleen for burgers, your support for her no, there are no fault lines, it is at this critical moment for Kathleen Fahlberg, Carol Mathy has introduced herself for the first time as a mother who was also accused of killing her four babies, unlike Kathleen, the medical case against her collapsed, she could very well be innocent and the medical experts are wrong, the police are wrong, these are the words that Kathleen Fahlberg has wanted to listen for a long time, but it is only now that Carol has emerged from the seclusion she chose in 2007, when the case against her was dropped on Kathleen's behalf.

Tracey meets Carol for the first time. She happened. How do we get the tape? You just left and didn't resurface, so we've actually never been able to track down here. I am so grateful this is happening if I can help in any way. Tracy comes with words of gratitude from phobic Kathleen. I guess this is her way of touching base and saying that she would really like to connect. with you because you are someone who has been with us, you don't know it, but you have been with us for a long time, so if this is her way of telling you that from inside the prison, Kathleen offers Carol her support, you suffered the feeling . trapped imprisoned at times im sure of that and it shows the determination to keep fighting to be persecuted like we were and still AM this should never have beenhappened maybe together our voices can help change that thank you very much sincerely Kathleen with a smiling face when you lose There's not just one thing you miss most, it's everything you think about, what they would be like now and what they would be doing and yes.

You wonder what that will look like while Carol Mathy has her freedom, what she will never have are her children, it is a void she feels every day, a loss that will accompany her for the rest of her life. when you go through so much pain. I expect sympathy when you are loving and understanding, yes, but then you expect to be left alone to cry and everyone deals with grief differently, so we will have iron ways, but it never stops, it doesn't get easier. Hi, I'm Tara Brown. Thanks for watching to stay up to date with the latest news from 60 Minutes Australia, make sure you subscribe to our channel.

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