MICHELLE OBAMA Opens Up On Her 8 Years In The White House: "We Know Too Much."

There's a chance you

know

too

much

. You've been married to the president of the United States, who

know

s everything about everything in the world. Sometimes you're just the phenomenally successful author. Please welcome a former first lady of these United States. , Michelle Obama, I love people. looking at Barack and I as #couplegoals no no there are some broken things that happen in even the best of marriages what keeps you up at night before jumping into this episode? I would like to invite you to join this community to listen to more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier and more healed.

All I want you to do is click the Subscribe button. I love your support. It's amazing to see all your comments and we're just getting started. Can't. wait to take this journey with you thank you so

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for subscribing it means a lot to me the number one health and wellness podcast J shett J shett the one and only Jett Michelle thank you so much for joining me on purpose, this is a great honor, I'm so grateful to have you here. I'm delighted to be here. I'm a fan. Oh, that's right, that means more to me than you know.

Thank you very much and I'll dive right into what's best. part of being you, I've never thought about that, that's a great question, I think my family, my friends, I think one of the things that Barack and I always talk about is that we're proud of the fact that we've kept our community, you know, the people that we've known our whole lives are still part of that community that keeps us solid and keeps us whole and grounded, it's easy to lose our minds on this journey that we've been on and I think what keeps us focused is that we've had some solid people in our lives and we strive to cultivate those relationships and learn to be intentional with them and I think that's probably one of the most interesting things is that you know I have this big kitchen table full of people who keep me focused and honest, yes, what is the longest friendship there is outside of family?

What

years

would you say is the longest friendship? I mean, my goodness, childhood friendships. I still have, um, I've ordered. of friends collected throughout every part of my life, you know, I have one or two, I have friends from high school that I keep in touch with, friends from college, friends from law school, you know , so you gather people along um and I've had a lot of people that just hung in there before we were the Obamas, yeah, how does that work? I feel like there are so many people who are on their journey and so many of us aren't on it.

We take steps forward because we are afraid of what our friends will think, some of us get carried away with success and ego and pride go to your head and then you push people away, sometimes it is envy and jealousy of everyone the others who did not accompany you. the journey, how do you navigate a multi-level friendship when everyone is going through so much? What are the types of key milestones for maintaining that kitchen table? You know, I talk about this journey like climbing Mount Everest, you don't even begin to, it's just that I've ever done it.

By the way, I've done it, but what I've heard about climbing Mount Everest is that you start at base camp and then you get to these peaks along the way and everyone starts the trip ready, you know, they think I'm going to make it. You get to the top and then you start the climb and some people are ready for it and some people aren't, and it's amazing that throughout the climb you learn who is really ready and there are people who just emotionally and physically can't go all the way. you run out of oxygen, you know they weren't in a condition to climb and one of the hardest things is when you find out that, I mean, do you stop, do you turn back because there was a member that wasn't ready or not?

You keep going up and you leave them where they are and we find that that has been the pattern. Wow, there are people that have been, were built to climb like us and some aren't, and I think Talk to young people about this too because when you're a kid that comes from nothing, um and I won't say that I come from nothing but Barack or that I come from wealth, connections, fame or fortune, so we have a hodgepodge of people. in our lives and one of the most difficult things is discovering that a dear friend was not ready for the climb and to move forward we tell young people that sometimes you have to leave them there because you can't carry people.

When you try to get to the top, it slows you down, but, you know, survivors have regrets that come with that and I know that many times when I talk to children and I see them high up, I see in them they have that struggle because they have reached a point. where they've left the people they love behind and they're struggling to figure out how to maintain those connections and it becomes difficult and exhausting, you know, kids, for example, who got the opportunity to go to college when half their family he doesn't eat well and they have a student loan and they need to use that loan to pay for their books, but they are trying to send money home to pay the electric bill. and I tell those kids if they want to make it they have to make some tough decisions about what to do with their life or they won't be able to climb on their own and then everyone will lose and then everyone will lose and I think that's how we had to look at it, we were lucky From having so many people who were ready for the climb, they had to adapt, they had to go back and do some exercise, but for the most part they did it.

We've made it, but for the people who couldn't, we had to leave them behind and keep climbing and if once we got to the top, if we could go back and pick up some others, we definitely did, it's one of the biggest challenges. Uh, when you're following a life that's drastically different from the one you came from, is there such a thing as a graceful ending? Well, it depends on who is doing the ending well. Yes, sometimes you know. Sometimes I say there is such a thing. like the slow ghost you know where you just let relationships take their natural course, friendships and relationships tell you when they are ready, yes that is very true and you have to listen to it, you learn as you get older.

I know sometimes you hang on too long, you let some you know be mean, uh Juju, you hang around too long and as you grow up you can recognize it. I have always approached life and friendships and try to tell my daughters that this is also about staying open. stay open to the possibility of people I never wanted, my daughters, and I never wanted to feel so high that I would shut down and be suspicious, you know, not wanting to let new people in, right? And that becomes very difficult when you're the president and the first lady, you know, you could, you know, close your life so much, because everyone might want something from you, but I always felt like that's a loss, you know, because if you close everyone , then you miss out on some gems we've tried to be. open up and find ways to let new people into our lives and develop new relationships and what I tell my children is to trust their instincts because they will know when to let people out, but keep the openness wide open, let get in on people, but when they show you who they are, let them out quickly and as you grow, you'll know it's like, that's not like this isn't working so let's cut it off quick, but stay open and naturally you're going to make mistakes. . naturally you will get hurt, naturally you will not read everyone perfectly, it is true that that will happen, but it is better to be aware, write down the lesson, but be open in the first place because being closed is worse. take advantage of the goodness, the possibility, the opportunity, the new right and I never want to miss the new.

I'd rather keep giving people the benefit of the doubt, bring them in and let them let me down, it's like I can deal. with disappointment I can be I can I can get over the pain but I don't want to lose the chance of someone special coming wow that is the biggest compensation so powerful and it has proven to be the right approach you know we just met Some wonderful people along this trip and God, if I had closed myself off to that, oh, I think about the friendships, the influences that I wouldn't have had, so I want my daughters to stay open, you know, I want them to be open.

People, yes. I had a mentor in London probably about 10

years

ago and he came up with this set of questions that give you your personality type and there are a lot of tests like this, but his was really interesting and very aligned with your way of thinking, and he also had guys where we would block and he would call this CS C, he said. The more closed, the more specific and the more controlling you are, the less you will be able to connect, grow, evolve, learn and he always said while you say the The more open, random and understanding you are, the more likely you will be able to invite people into your life at different times. and I love hearing that because I like, yeah, it was yeah, that change from closed OH Closed selective and controlling to open random and understanding, he was saying, you never know, you might have a random interaction with someone, it might be the biggest lesson. beautiful of your life and I also felt like you know when you're the president of the United States and the first lady you have to do it. be open, you have to be open to all possibilities, you can't live in your Fortress and rule the people correctly and I think we benefited from the fact that we had to figure out how to be normal people in the White House because we had kids in school and so we couldn't just become White House people, we had to get to know that community and go to parent-teacher conferences and make friends with other parents because we wanted our kids' lives to be normal, but that It kind of kept me connected with people and what they were really feeling and what their challenges were and that keeps me open and empathetic with people because I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my castle looking at everyone else, so I found that particularly necessary. .

Absolutely yes, that is the best thing, the beautiful thing, what has been the worst or the most difficult part of being you. I think it's the other side of the coin, when you're on top of Mount Everest, it can be isolating and dystopian. in a way, you know, I think one of the most important things that we've learned to appreciate in this role, and I say this to young people, especially young people who think they want fame, you know, is like, do you know what it is? clinging to something that you have no idea about or your parents pushing you towards this is that when you become famous and well known you lose your anonymity, that's a hard thing to lose.

Sur Price Right cost is a huge Fair Price, the natural thing every day. to sit and be able to sit in the world and observe it and not be observed, right. I mean, wow, that's a really interesting way to put it, yeah, yeah, just sitting in a park and watching the world happen without anyone pulling you out of it, right? just walking through a park or standing in line at the supermarket and listening to the life we ​​don't have, you know we don't have spontaneity in the same way and that's a hard thing to lose, now here's what, fortunately, we lost. we lost it at 40.

I just think about the kids who try not knowing that you are about to lose something really valuable that you want, you try hard to lose it and you are only 18 20 no I don't want to lose your anonymity, you don't want to trade it for anything in the world because once you lose it you lose much more. We've adapted well because we're adults, so yes, I can figure out how to do it. a movement go out for a walk visit a friend but I have to call like 12 people and I have to think about the movements and security has to be aligned we can't do the ordinary things in life, you know, go to a movie o I joked with covid when people asked when we were all in quarantine how it felt and I was like, well, it was kind of easy for us because we've lived in quarantine for a decade, so you learn to live in this. smaller footprint, but it's a difficult thing that I don't think people think about when they think about power and fame and it has some downsides, yeah, and what do people want most from you and because I love the idea of What you were saying about being open is that that mentality is so special.

I guess when you're open and then you said you can get through that pain, what's the pain that you typically have to get through or, more commonly, that you've had? well maybe pain is too strong a word um again because we're older it's just the loss of a part of yourself you know? I mean, people always ask me I was in Chicago the other day and every time I go back to Chicago people say, Do you miss Chicago? I miss the Chicago we knew before we were here. Wow, it's powerful. Yes, Chicago is no longer available to us.

Yes. You know how we love him that way. And that's a loss is a pain it's personal no, that's life but it's still a loss you know my husband loves New York and it was interesting, he thought for a second because he's been more isolated than me MH, he thought for a minute When we leave the White House, we're going to live in New York and I said, man, you can't live in New York and he can't access the wonderful city of New York the way he remembered when he was 20 because guess what? we can't do we can't walk down the street we can't get on the subway not necessarilyWe can walk through Central Park without a big plan, you know the things that make New York, New York, we can't access it, that's the part I don't know, the people part, the connection with people part, I never get tired of that because I'm open, so it's not the right thing to do, it's just the way you want to live your life, especially when you're open, right?

You want to be open, you want to be in the midst of people and we've lost that. absolutely. I think the beautiful thing about this book is The Light We Bear and Become is the one that shows us how many trials, challenges, setbacks that you have had to overcome and that you have gone through in your life with such elegance, tact, you know, with such determination and impulse, and I'm intrigued. that after having overcome so many things like you said climbing Mount Everest using that as our analogy, what keeps you up at night now or what is your biggest fear now, after having overcome so much, has less to do with me ? personally and more to do with the world we live in, there is such a thing as not knowing too much M and when you've been married to the president of the United States, who knows everything about everything in the world, sometimes you just want to know too much, Right, it's like I don't know, I don't want to know what was in that folder that you just received that made you shut up, you know, I don't want to know why security stopped you.

I mean, it could be any variety of things that appear on the leader of the Free World's desk, so I know a lot about what's going on and what keeps me awake are the things I know, the war in the region on too many occasions. regions, what AI is going to do for us, the environment, you know, are we moving fast enough? what are we doing regarding education? Are people going to vote and why don't people vote? Are we too glued to our phones? things that keep me awake because you have no control over them and you wonder where the people are where we are in this you know where our hearts are what's going to happen in the next election I'm terrified of what could happen because our leaders matter who we select , who speaks for us, who holds up that intimidated pulpit, affects us in ways that sometimes I think people take for granted, you know, the fact that people think that the government and you know is that it actually does something and I .

I'm like, oh my God, the government does everything for us and we can't take this democracy for granted and sometimes I worry that we do. Those are the things that keep me awake. What habits have you developed? Because I think people may not have access. the news that you do, but I think people can definitely relate yes, yes to what you're saying, absolutely J. I'm just watching all the news on my phone. I am connected to the television. I hear things from friends and family. I think a lot of people can relate to you saying I feel like I know too many rules.

You spoke to yourself. It's not just a news update. It's a folder. It's the person calling. It's a private meeting. Whatever it is, you're in one. sense, it is even more extreme because you are very aware of the real reality, unlike a news channel which is part of reality, yes, one of the most important practices is to deliberately turn it off for a moment or more than a moment, and I recommend to you that I think our phones are kind of a normal human equivalent to what I just described we are too connected all the time we read too much we are absorbing too much we are constantly being fed by images and that has become the norm and that is us, we have been commercialized, that's great, that's what we should want, but our brains we are not, we are not that sophisticated a species, yes, we have not evolved enough to be able to absorb so much information constantly. and our children are certainly not prepared to handle it.

I think that plays a huge role in the higher rates of depression and suicide among young people. They have to let their brains rest from the noise, even though you know we're all trying. to fix everything, everyone needs a break, so I'm very deliberate in knowing that I can't take all that in and we're getting it in such a misinterpreted way, right? We have confirmation. bias, we're only reading what we already believe and I know I have to be very deliberate about it, you know, understanding that a lot of the information I get isn't even complete, I filter it out, you know, and then I develop habits that shut down my brain.

He started to think carefully. I wrote In The Light about knitting, you know, which is a habit I developed. I developed a hobby that I developed during quarantine and that's because it makes you so present and that's why it engages you, turns off your brain and allows your hands to do the movement to take control and that way I discovered that it's meditative, right , and that's what meditation is, it's calming your noisy mind and some of us can't connect with meditation, but I think we need it. I think biologically we need it. closing that part of ourselves to rest and I discover that knitting is exercise, that is, learning something physical turns off my mind.

I mean, I've started playing tennis and there's nothing that turns off my mind and then running after it. a green ball and trying to figure out move your feet hit the ball keep going it's like yeah um that closes my mind for the hour or 90 minutes that I'm doing that I don't worry you know I'm breathing I'm outside I'm letting the sun hit the face. I am those habits and routines of creating something well and we do it less and less. It's like everything is in the mind, everything is technology, but I think we need it.

Something that I love about knitting is that in the end I have made something that you know is simply satisfying in a very different way than problem solving or analysis, yes, of course, building, creating, painting, drawing, arranging, putting something real in the world. that came from your own hands yes, something small, you know, that's why I talk about the power of the small in the light that we carry because many times our brains are trying to make the big solution and that's when we feel desperate and tired. because most of us don't have the power to fix anything on a large scale, but we can focus on the little things we have control over.

You know, making a sweater for your daughter. Help mentor a child in your neighborhood. Love the children you bring. going into the world and making sure they have everything they need, that's where the change happens and when I do those types of activities I meditate on that power, that little power, which is the satisfaction of hitting a stupid ball over a net, yeah, You know, and getting a good swing is like it makes the day better because I hit the ball well or finished a scarf. I love it, no, you're absolutely right and I'm so glad you're using the word close and this switch to analog I remember it at one point and I think everyone can relate to this you wake up with your phone I'd be brushing my teeth I'm in my phone I'm having breakfast I'm on my phone you know just your phone is now tied to your hand in every activity you do throughout the day, so your brain never shuts off and the interesting thing is that we all know that our phones need a reset, they need an update, they need a software update or whatever be and I think I saw somewhere that the human brain today has to process like 74 gigabytes of information per day, yeah, per day and I was thinking I remember when your phone You don't know that it's a lot and when you think about it this is a completely new technology, you know, when we got to the White House we could have blackberries, right, wow, yeah, social media didn't exist, all of that came up in the eight years that we were in the White House and it just went off like a rocket, we don't evolve that fast, you know, humans, it takes us generations to evolve, we haven't adapted to these new media, we haven't adapted biologically to MH, so we don't It's no wonder we do it. we're stressed, yeah, no wonder we're full of anxiety, no wonder our kids are struggling, you know, because we have a new technology and we've just taken it on the Hook Line in Sinker, we're not.

I even wonder how much you know the more, the more true, I think we need to be very aware of this new device, yeah, and we need to be aware of our kids because they don't have any filters, they're just going to be flipping through this stuff, you know? his mind never sleeps and as parents of my generation we know so little about it that we don't even know how to control it. It's like cigarettes. Is it good for us? I mean, at one point we all smoked until we realized this isn't really good for us, right?

I think we have to be careful with this new thing we are enjoying. Yes, an article from a few years ago said exactly that today we absorb it in one day. in 24 hours the same amount of tragedy that we would experience in our entire lives 25 years ago today we absorbed what we would experience in our entire lives in one day and it felt real and that's why people panic more, I mean, Barack, my husband is a fact based guy, he's a science guy, sometimes it's not popular nowadays to have a president who believes in facts and science and all that, but he's one of those people and he always says you know statistically speaking , especially when young people complain about where we are. today it says that if you look at history and statistics, if you chose any time in human history to be born MH, you would want to be born now M, the war on crime, those rates are the lowest, but no one feels that people are feel more. unsure why because they're feeding them images of every crime that happens anywhere and everywhere, and when we were little, you'd listen to the local news, you know, it's like there's a fire or that kid, you know him and you know. now we're getting everything not just from our community but from around the world things that have always been happening that we just didn't know about it yeah, now we know too much yeah and we're interpreting that to mean that things are horrible, we went through world wars, depressions and famines, this is not new, it's just that we know everything, it's one way of looking at it, yes, absolutely, and I think you're right because there is incomplete information.

I like the incomplete word you said. appreciate that kind of subtle point incomplete information then you have opinions then you have feelings and emotions and then there is much more information at each level you have the physical information the emotional information the mental information of course the physical experience of it and and and it may be, it may be too much, Hey, it's very interesting. You use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest because I recently went to see a comedy show and I'm trying to remember the comedian's name, so I'll have to find it. later and I put it in there but he was literally describing he was saying relationships are like climbing Mount Everest and what he said was he started camp B B and he said you and your partner are ready you're ready to go.

They're guiding you and then at one point you're like, oh, we're cold, but it's okay, we'll stay warm, we'll be fine and then he's like, you get to the first stop and you're like, oh yeah, like you just did it. Did you pack their gloves? Did you pack the gloves and then your partner says oh no, I forgot the gloves and you say oh okay, okay, we'll keep our hands warm, then you go up a little bit more and then they? It was like now he's gotten to a point where it's really cold and you're like, Why did you forget those gloves?

As you know, it's something like that. Come on, why are you forgetting those gloves? Then you get to the next stop and your partner tells you: you pack the sandwiches well and then you look at them like you don't know where they are anyway, and that's why you talk about this so much in your work in your book as if relationships are challenging, were difficult, I think you've been together for over 30 years 311 31 years congratulations October yes, okay, amazing 31 years, congratulations, that's amazing and very inspiring in many ways, my wife and I have been together for 10 years and that counts, counts and we can definitely see the unforeseen and seen challenges that come with being together for long periods of time, my wife and I in 2016 both changed jobs, so we got married, changed jobs and moved country so we moved from London to New York that year we both quit our jobs in London I could work here my wife couldn't at the time because of her visa and we started a new life and obviously we moved home and we're away of our families and that year fortunately brought us closer, but it was a very big challenge. tough year because I've heard those are some of the hardest things you can do, the only thing we didn't do was have a child, that's right, you covered all the tough Bas, other than the president and the first lady.

I think that requires everything. But when you're going through all of these challenges that you've talked about many times before, has there ever been a time when you've said or done things and then thought, I wish I hadn't done that? I wish I had done that. I'm not saying what in my marriage, of course, yesterday I was right, I love it, how, how, how, becauseThey've been together for 31 years, how do you rectify something like that when you know, because there's a difference between being spiteful or being spiteful. silly but like when you really feel like I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have said that, how do you approach something you know that's the practice of relationships right after 31 years, yeah we still do it but you know better quick and then you apologize, you know, you learn to say the bad thing, right, and that takes a second, right, you know, that's why I talk about relationships in the light I talk about marriage because I think number one most people don't talk about about it like our parents you didn't talk about your marriage you didn't talk about your feelings you didn't talk about your parents I didn't tell you about the challenges we faced, so why don't we share the whole experience?

Because what happens is that not knowing, you hit some tough times in your relationship, natural and understandable, and you want to quit and it's like oh no no no no no no that's not worthy of quitting that's just that's the nature of things you know that's why I joked it's like oh you're mad at your partner you're mad for a year and you think the marriage is over, no, no, you're going to have decades of I don't know if I like you, you know, because during the span of a 30 year marriage, yes, you improvise enough arguments and you have a decade right, and that's how it works. but you don't quit, you learn from it and that's what it means to be in a relationship, it's the choice to figure it out so you don't quit when it gets tough, so yeah, I said something I didn't mean well year year five we could have had feelings hurt and it would have taken us days to rectify it you are 30 it's like ah there she goes again or there he goes again I know when to talk to him about it and when because we have practiced it We have made many mistakes, we have made mistakes and after 31 years we are getting better at it and it gets better and better.

You know, look, if you lived with your roommate for 30 years, you'd hate him. at some point but it wouldn't be something defining you have friendships if they last a long time you are going to have some fights why do we put so much pressure on marriage so that it is not difficult it is the most difficult thing by nature What you have ever done is try to build a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes, who has a totally different temperament and you're like having other people with them, you know you bring other lives and other personalities to the mix and then life happens, of course, it's going to be difficult, You know, but I wouldn't trade my marriage for the world with all the ups and downs with all the running for president stuff.

I thought, what are you doing? I mean, talk about it being a big transition, yes, in our lives, but the good has outweighed it and if we hadn't stuck it out we would have missed out on all the good and that's what I tell young people: first of all, choose good. Pick someone you respect and like, start there right and then remember that that's what it is and then understand that that's what it's going to be like and you're going to have deep flaws and you're going to make a lot of mistakes, right? but in the end you can look that person in the eyes and say that you are still the person that I like, love and respect and we can work this out yeah so I share it mhh because I don't want people to look at me. and Barack likes # couple goals and he doesn't know that no, no, there are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages and you use that term quitting is something that you yourself defined what you saw as worthy of quitting smoking and what Did you see that is not worth quitting, that is a good question, look, I think there are some objective things that are worth quitting, like Criminal, of course, abuse, but hey, that's me, You know there are some people who love through a lot of things, so I think that has to be individual, but if I were talking to my daughters I wouldn't want them to stay in a marriage that made them feel oppressed and was overall negative for who they were. .

I think there are reasons to move away from marital friendship. everything works, a lot of things, so yes, I have a clear list of non-negotiables, but to each his own, yes, absolutely, and I think it is very important that everyone who is listening or seeing that idea knows to have our own renunciation. A decent definition is a huge necessity because it can be very difficult to find clarity when you go very deep into something. A practice I love to do with many of my clients and even the people I work with online. I ask everyone to write. write down the needs that they have in their life and then write down the people who filled those needs and it could be themselves too, some of them and then some of them are their friends, their mom, their dad and of course in their book, We noticed that your mother's wisdom is like the Buddha in your life when you say that you see different people, what are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to fill and then you realize that they actually needed to be filled by other people , Oh that's good. question um, I write about that, the fact that we are two very independent, ambitious, intelligent, complex people, you know, as individuals, you know, we are dynamic, you know, I'm not saying that as an ego trip, but no, I know what . you mean you're constantly changing that's exactly right and I learned it took me a while to learn you know there's no way we can be everything to each other we have different interests different goals there was a stage in my marriage where I thought that's what a couple was supposed to be, you know, you should call me all the time, we should talk all the time, we should be each other's best friends all the time, our marriage got better when I got better at it because I think he already had that.

Independence, this notion of I love you, not even if I don't talk to you today, that to me is like I don't need it, I felt like I needed more of that, but as I got older, it became more. mature clearer about my own goals I realized that I you know he can't be responsible for my happiness I have to be responsible for it I have to define it for myself I have to learn how to achieve it my husband is definitely part of it but he It's not him I can't put him at the center of my happiness that freed me to let him be him and let me be me so I have friends who give me things that my husband doesn't give me. girlfriends one distinction we have is that I'm a talker, when I sit down with my girlfriends we can talk for days, I mean literally for days, we can take a lunch break, but we can talk, you know, my husband is not him, him.

I can talk, but he's coming to a friendship session, you know, at 9:00 in the morning. I have a friend who stays with me and he says: What are you talking about? Like, well, we're just now with our kids and we're going to talk about each of them separately for about an hour, right, he's like me, he couldn't do that, right, he can't be that to me, but I have very good friends, mostly, who tell me that you know we will do it. We dissect life to the point of bitterness, we'll sound everything about each song and he says: I think I'm done, yeah, I said, well, you can finish because I have it and we just started, let's do it.

I have 12 more hours left and it's very beautiful to hear that because I think that, especially when we are young, we think that that person has to be all that and from the beginning and will become that, there is the other fallacy. oh well I know who they could be and who they could become, how much of that did you feel like you had to disconnect and detach yourself from what this person could be for you, obviously not in the world, I had to disconnect from everything? those beliefs, right, and every couple is different, I discovered that I know people who are each other's best friends, they like to travel together, they walk and hold hands, and I have friends who have relationships where they talk every hour.

I say, is that you? Talking to him again nothing changed, you know, it's up to each individual to define that for themselves, that's the key word, yes, for Barack and I, and I think we should be clear about that because the other thing is that when we hold on internally to an expectation of with the other person we don't even share it, so now we are angry because you haven't even fulfilled something. I didn't even tell you I need it. You know that takes time and work, that's why marriage is difficult, right? You will have a tendency to live in your head and live the image of what you want them to be and you haven't even communicated that to them.

That's just a small fraction of the challenge of marriage and friendship, and all of it is difficult. It takes time but it's worth it, yes I think those controls are the hardest. I know there are four checks that I try to keep a good habit with my wife that has really helped me. One of them is every day I'll ask you what your highlight was today or what you learned today something something positive something like what's the best thing that happened to you today I want to know because it's so easy for us to be so busy in our days We don't see each other at all the day, we don't talk all day and the days can also pass like that because we are also traveling.

Then every week I try to ask him: How can I help you, how can I help you this week? Is there anything coming? What I just need to be aware of is sometimes just information and that gives me the opportunity to also tell you that I have a very stressful week ahead of me, I just know that I may not be in my best shape this week. I just let you know, every month, I'm, you know, talking to her and trying to tell her what your big focus is for this month, like you know what the big thing is that you're working on and then every year it's easy, as you know. what's your goal this year, a resolution or whatever, and I find that those questions and sometimes every quarter I'll ask a question, what's the hardest, but it's like is this relationship going in the direction that you want and if It is not like this.

What are you willing to do and what am I willing to do to get it back on track? Because I often find that if you don't talk about that deep intimacy, you just go down different paths and that's why 5 years later. you say, well, I don't know you anymore, yes, yes, and that seems like being in close contact to me, but one of the most important things that I read that I wanted to try with you was that the Gman Institute talked about how the number one skill. o Relationship habit and they looked at couples who had stayed together the longest and discovered that it wasn't date nights, it wasn't vacations, it wasn't any of this, it was learning to fight, it was knowing how to deal. with conflicts and most couples, obviously we are all fine, we never fight or we are never going to fight, but it is inevitable, so I came up with these three fighting styles and I wanted to know, how do you see yourself and how Do you see President Obama? he would see it himself, so here the three fighting styles are a ventor, which means I want to fix it and solve it right now.

You like to let off steam. You're really trying to fix it and figure it out. The second is that you are a Hider. I need time and space to think about it, I just want to spend time alone and then the third one is the Exploder, where it's like I want my emotions to be heard and felt and seen before we take some time or before we figure it out. . Are you OK? Then I changed. At the beginning of our relationships he was more of an Exploder. Wow, I think he's always been a fixer in the vent, yeah, fixer, yeah, so I'd be explosive and then I'd want to hide. like he wants to explode, let me have my emotions and then give me a moment, yeah right, and he's like, we have to fix this, we have to, you know, close this, we have to do it.

I'll figure it out, let's talk about this. through um and I love that about him, especially as a man, you know he's someone who's not afraid to express his emotions, he's smart and that's why he knows me, so he doesn't let me pretend like nothing's wrong because he knows that I . I know there's something you're a little off about and um, but I've had to learn that blowing up at a repairman doesn't make you feel good, right? You just know that he feels good to me, yeah, but he doesn't feel good to me. He's right, but he's learned that, like Hider, I need a little more time.

If I'm blowing up, I can't be rational enough to talk about your fix and you, if you want to fix it, then I have to be. in a rational place, so let me hide for a minute so I can get to a place to fix it. Yeah, I think that's been the trajectory of our ranking in learning how to argue, but I like them, I like them, but he's been pretty consistent, yeah. He's consistently the fixer, you know, and he's also much more emotionally balanced than I am. um, we're just different people in that way and he's learned not to be too afraid of explosiveness, yeah, it's like he doesn't mean it.

I'm just saying it right now because I need to say it, yeah right, and that awareness that you're showing is so powerful to witness because you realize that he's not as serious as I'm making him out to be, it's important. that's right, it's important and I need to make note of it, but I don't need to deal with it in this, you know it very well and it's maturing, we all say, well, say what's on your mind, you know, say it like it is and it is. Like yeah, that tends to be who I am, but as you get older you realize that yeah, that's your heart, but your head tells you that you want to be heard M and you have to think about who you're talking to and what you're up to. go is because thatIt will dictate how you have to communicate with them, so when you are young you just want them to listen to you.

Yes, as you grow up, you have a goal, you want to achieve something and being heard the way you say it may not get you to your goal. If I. I mean, to me, that's the crux of what's right to go high. I mean, going high is being strategic. If you are really trying to make a change, you have to think about whether your approach will allow the change to happen. You know that going high means that "You're thinking about a broader point outside of your own anger or pain, you're thinking about where I'm trying to get to and how I'm doing it with this group that I'm trying to move, that passion has matured and turned into purpose." and young people.

They often just want to act with passion, yes, of course, but passion doesn't always solve anything and I have learned that in my relationship you know that my passion is meaningless if my husband can't hear it, do you know if I have? hurt their feelings in the process, well, what's that isn't the point? You know, so I have to mature my passion. You know, I have to mature it as a mother. I have to be very careful as a mother with the words that I say. I say, "I can." I don't just say what's on my mind, I can, I have to think about how I say it to which child, because they're both different and they both need to be raised differently, so going high is for me. the mature way of living. true, it is a mature way of conveying the message, it does not mean that how you feel is not relevant, true, it is true, it is real and true, but that is something you have to face when dealing with outsiders, Whether it's your husband or your kids or your friends your passion has to take the weight of what's going to work with this person what's going to work with this group of people to me that's what it means to go high yeah how great definition, I think you're the best person to have this conversation with.

I love how you explain the need for that, and in fact, I don't think I've ever heard it explained that way before. I really appreciate it because I think we've currently confused being authentic and being strategic. we were saying is when you share how you feel you are being authentic, but it may not be received, heard or seen authentically because it was not perceived strategically, but sometimes today we perceive strategy as manipulation or as a technique instead of o sell yourself or sell yourself well, explain that to me because I think how we perceive that we have put authenticity on a pedestal, which is not bad, but we have put strategy as something that you know how to avoid well and maybe strategy is too strategic or difficult a word , but you could replace it with empathy, you know?

If you have connectivity, it's like who am I trying to move and where are they in this right and when are you the president of the United States? America or the first lady, you have a great platform. I've always felt like I have a responsibility to put my feelings aside and think about where you are. Why are you so angry? Where does your hate come from? Because yes, I can get mad at you. I hate, I can get mad because you know you just said something racist or you brought me down or you misjudged me, but if I'm trying to fix the relationship, I have to understand what you're going through, where did you do it? that perception comes from what your history is that put you in this spirit of hate because that's going to dictate how we can even begin to have the conversation.

I don't lose my authenticity in that because I know who I'm right, but I have to make space to understand who you are that's strategy or empathy, but for me effective communication, especially if you're a leader, if you have the power, requires a step back, Yes, of course, and I think that's what it means to reach high, and you're right. I think that today we have supplanted that consideration because my feelings count, my voice has to be heard, and that is why I believe that we have to learn to listen to people at all times, we have to give people a space to be.

You hear it outside of anger, right, because that's where all that comes from, when people can't mature their response it's because they don't have a voice, it's like if I don't have a voice in a normal conversation, then I'll do you. Listen to me, yes, okay, young people feel that way, absolutely right, oppressed people feel that way, people who have nothing to do with it and feel that way, that's why I think it's strategic to give everyone a piece of something to make them feel seen and heard, I think that reduces anger and explosiveness because people can guarantee that they are being seen, they will be heard, they don't have to shout, they don't have to destroy something, they don't have to break it. because they own it and we just lose sight of that % these days in our policies and our perspectives, you can't exclude people, you know, I speak out when I think about kids in communities that don't invest enough in their anger. his lack of like none of this belongs to me, so why should I protect him?

Why wouldn't I tear down your

house

or rob you or try to take your car because I don't own any of this? This country is not mine, they don't see me well. I think we do better with the kids if they feel like I have a chance here. This place is investing in me, so I'm invested in it. We do it with children in the city center. but we know that we don't talk about education, we don't talk about what we are giving them or if they have music or Joy or sports or activities, we just want them to have nothing and then be fine with it, but they are going to fight to be heard if they go to fight to be seen but they are not going to do it rationally because they do not have a strategic place and they do not feel a part of this is so true so true when you try to reach high when you try to have this vision of I want to understand your story I want to enter into your way of thinking and recognizing why you have evolved in this direction or this particular path, if anything, what is it that still offends you?

Injustice uh ego greed is offensive racism ignorance is offensive and I've always been that child I don't like injustice I don't like bullies but I have to think about how I deliver messages that are still beautiful even in my pain, my anger and my disappointment, so that those emotions are there, MH, but I have to think about where, where do I let that out, yeah, in a safe space and that's what my kitchen table is okay. I still have those emotions, but in my voice facing the public I have to be responsible, correct, strategic and reflective about what is going to move the needle, what is going to add value, my emotional well-being is taken care of at the kitchen table .

I can't suffocate them. feelings, but I can't represent them in the town square, yes, CU. I'm just going to add fuel to the fire and that doesn't help if we're trying to move the needle and that doesn't make you inauthentic. Don't believe it because those feelings are still mine and if you ask me I will tell you why I am angry but I am not going to continue with that and in the middle of the message I will make it clear what I represent and what I do not represent but the tone and tenor of the message matters we can't just say what's the first thing that comes to mind we can't that's not authenticity to me that's childish and we see childish leadership right before us, what it looks like and what it feels like when someone is just vile and vulgar and cynical. in a leadership position, it doesn't filter down, well, you know, you just get more of it, I think we're obligated to do that. model for those of us who have a platform because it resonates and I want to resonate well I want to resonate reason and compassion and empathy and that is more important than my feelings because of my feelings I can take care of those that is uh that is a master class in the communication, that's really hearing that from you with so much empathy, but the energy is so empowering for everyone listening and watching because I think we've come at it from the other side today I think my personal feelings are not mine, but overall how We feel, my personal feelings have become more important than moving, supporting, serving, caring and getting to where we need to go and that's because we have suppressed those feelings, that's why that happened, it's not like that.

It happened because people are mean or insensitive. It happened because people feel like they haven't been heard. Going back to your point, this is why we need to give space. We need to let this emerge. How early did you start to recognize this for yourself? life like where do you remember like the first time before the White House? Well, actually you were like that, it worked like that, it made sense and I still felt good because I had my kitchen table, is there something that comes to mind and I go to Childhood? I don't think I knew any of this when I was little, but I think I did learn it in the Trail campaign, it was a product of one of the most difficult moments I had in the Trail campaign, but one of the best growing.

Moments and I write about this in light of when I was accused of not loving my country because of some phrases I said. I first learned that when you have a public forum, especially in these times, you are like competing. people will distort you whenever they can and if they distort your words, your truth, even your personality, which I felt people tried to do with me, they tried to turn us into others like the first black blacks by accusing my husband of being a terrorist and not having born in this country, to accuse me of being an angry black woman and you know the labels that can easily be put on others, people who are different, are right to make people afraid of us, that is a strategy that is used over and over again and again they were playing me and it got me to the point where I was almost ready to stop campaigning, but then I thought I had to be more strategic than them about how I deliver my message.

I have to be authentic, but I also have to be careful not to be mischaracterized. I have to be smarter than them. That doesn't mean I'm quitting MH, but I had to regroup for a minute and really evaluate how I'm going to regain control over my narrative. and communicating in a broad way, that allows me to be heard, especially as a black woman. Yes, being critical, being authentic or passionate, right, was a learning curve for me. I mean, I think my feelings about the importance of communication were always there, yeah. my belief in how important it is for stories to connect us was there, I learned it in life, but I learned to do it on the public stage.

I learned the tricks and traps in my first campaign, yes, and those lessons stay with me. yeah, thanks for that example, that example definitely connects, it reminded me of probably one of my favorite words from Martin Luther King where he said that people who love peace need to learn to organize, just like those who love war for those . of us who love love and we love peace and we love compassion empathy if we are not organized about it if we are not strategic about it if we are not thoughtful about it that is true, it will not have the impact that we all need It is to have Michelle , we, you've been so kind and generous with your time, we end each episode with a bottom five, these are the top five, which I always ruin because I'm too interested and curious, they usually responded in one word. to one sentence at most, but I know I'm going to screw it up, so okay, so the first question I have to ask you, Michelle, is what's the best advice you've ever heard or received? from my wife's mom, come home, we like you here to explain that it was like my parents always taught me that the world won't always like you, but you can't count on the world to like you, you come home to please, you go. out there to get your education to make a living, you will never necessarily find people who see you, love you or like you, you get it right, that's been advice that stuck, oh that's beautiful, thank you, that's so powerful .

I know a lot of people who need to hear that right now. Second question: What is the worst advice you have ever heard or received? Don't know. Don't know. The worst advice stays with me. Let it go, brother, this is not the worst, true, but it goes back to what we were saying before. You know he's like when you walk into the White House, you have to be careful. F No new friends, right, that's not who he is, it's you. I know that was a short way of saying: be careful. I think staying open. MH was more important in this phase of our lives than being closed.

I'm glad we stayed open. I am glad too. Question number three, you said that. the White House doesn't change you reveals more of who you are Yes, what did it reveal to you about yourself that I'm quite strategic, intelligent and resilient? The White House tests you in ways you never anticipated and the fact that we came out as a family as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters, it was us MH, our values, our compassion, our intelligence, our strategy that helped us get ahead. You know, I'm very proud of my husband for the way he ran the The way his administration worked, the team we built, we're very proud of everyone.

He may have diverted me from the question, but it's beautiful. I think that's because of who we are and I know I can see it in your eyes now and feel it. from your words as if it were like that it must be difficult like knowing that you know it can't always be like that in In a sense, it's almost great that you were able to leave, but there's also a feeling of oh, but that was great. I mean, bars are different.for people in life and I have learned that this is what happens with being other.

MH, you learn to be excellent all the time because you can't be less than other people. Can other people be impeached multiple times and still run for office? M black man, can't you just learn to be good and in the end you benefit from that extra resilience, you know you might get angry about it, but it also makes you more equipped, right, but it's still not fair, yeah, definitely, Question number four, we have two more left. Question number four, obviously you have already started living. and she will leave it in Legacy for the work she has done if she could describe what she would like that Legacy to read if anyone read it or listened to it, what it would say, what it would say, that she helped more young people feel. seen CU I start with young people because with one word we can change the life of a child, we can lift them up, but that same wrong word can crush them forever and those are the pillars of our Humanity, how we treat all our children.

True, I hope my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for young people. A fifth and final question we ask all the guests who have ever been on the show. It is more appropriate for guests like you, but if you could create a law in the world. that everyone had to follow what would be, everyone should have a home to live in, food, eat, a job, go to an educational period, there would be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world, now there could be levels of that, you know, we would do it. We don't live in a world where so few have so much and so many have nothing mhm and that law would create some kind of equity.

We have this trickle-down approach, right, that's the basis of a capitalist economy, right, but that's not happening, yeah, it's not trickle-down. Law would require it anyway if we are not leaking voluntarily then we need to be forced to leak how do we create that La? I'm on how do we get that mandatory drip? No, we so badly need to do it. I need that. What is blocking that? What is stopping you? I think fear does, I mean, I write about fear because I think fear is the source of so many things because I think people who have a lot are afraid of not having enough and it's not rational, right? but we also fear each other and that's why it's hard to give something to the people you think you should fear because you can't connect with them we're all human we're very similar I don't care what color your skin is or how we pray or who we love we're all the same thing that prevents us from seeing that is fear right I don't know you you are different so I have to be afraid of you and I can't I have to make sure you don't come to my space and then we live in a culture where people with power prefer fear to obtain more power .

I want all of you to be afraid of each other MH and then I can come in and rule it well I think. fear is at the root of it, Michelle. I deeply appreciate your time, your energy, your presence, the eloquence, but also the deep energy that you bring to conversations like these and I'm definitely grateful for the light that you carry and I'm very deeply grateful. For sharing it on purpose and I hope this is the first of many conversations together, so again, thank you very much, we will talk again, absolutely thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr.

Daniel. Aan on how to change your life by changing your brain if we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or curse of scanning over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers and their brains. they are very damaged sh