Master the Art of Influence + Communication (Become MAGNETIC) | Charles Duhigg

So if we know that loneliness is deadly, is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, and we know that we need to have connections with people, how do we form connections? A Blitzer Prize-winning journalist, best-selling author of The Power of Habit and Smarter, Faster, Better, Please. welcome Charles, do it 2013 Power of Habit comes out and that's the same year I won the Pitzer Award for this work I was doing at the New York Times and it was definitely the hardest and maybe one of the worst years of my life. I couldn't pay myself enough to go back to that year and Rel.

I had won the lottery twice and the only future was downhill. Super communicators tend to ask 10 to 20 times more questions than the average person, but I'm not sorry. In an interrogation there are questions that are so quick that we do not register them as questions, but what they do is once again demonstrate that we want to connect. Vulnerability tends to be the strongest expression we can make if someone says. something vulnerable we can't help but hear it how can these principles really help end the loneliness epidemic we are seeing in the US but also in the world?

It's a fantastic question and probably the most important one to think about properly. Right now, welcome back everyone to the school of green. Very excited. Our guest, we have the inspiring Charles Dueg in the house, who is a Pter Award-winning reporter and author of the #1 New York Times bestseller, The Power of Habit, which has already sold almost 10 units. million copies and author of the new super communicator book how to unlock the secret language of connection. I'm so excited you're here and I wanted to start with a quote before we dive in. Well, I saw this quote about the current loneliness epidemic. is happening in the world, but specifically in the US and this was from I think the surgeon general said that lack of social connection poses a significant risk to individual health and longevity, loneliness and social isolation increase the risk of premature death by 26% and 29%, respectively.

More generally, a lack of social connection can increase the risk of premature death, as much as smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day. Poor or insufficient social connection is associated with an increased risk of disease, including a 29% increased risk of heart disease and a 32% increased risk of heart disease. Additionally, stroke risk is associated with an increased risk of anxiety, depression, and dementia. I want to start by asking you to reflect on that. I'm curious how can the principles and the super connectors, the super communicators, how can these principles really help end disease. The loneliness epidemic we're seeing in the US, but also the world, is a fantastic question and probably the most important question to think about right now.

So this study called "Now They Call It" was done. The Harvard Study of Adult Happiness, you probably know it, the longest longitudinal study ever done that started over a hundred years ago, it was actually called the Grant Study at first because a guy named Grant gave money to start it and they began to follow everything. These people were originally just students at Harvard, but then they were people living in tenements in Boston, and when they all got married and had kids, they started following them and they had this hypothesis, these hypotheses, and what they wanted to find out is what's the correlation with the future.

Success, happiness and, most importantly, longevity, health, and they had these hypotheses again. This is like the 1910s and 1920s. They were like, you know, if you have a two-parent family, you're probably going to live longer than if you have one parent. family, if you go to Harvard, you're probably going to live longer than if you didn't go to Harvard and they studied all these things, you know what, how, what careers people have, what they eat and they finally found there. There was only one overwhelming thing that determined whether people were happy and lived much longer than average.

How many connections they had with other people, especially when they were 45 years old. So there's nothing magical about 45 except that they would look at 45-year-olds and find that if you had twice as many friends, you like people that you're actually involved with in a similar relationship, a meaningful relationship, a meaningful relationship, yeah You have twice as many people in your life, on average, you will live up to it. 20 years long, wow, and by the way, you will end up being more financially successful, so the question is okay, so if we know that loneliness kills, it is equal to smoking 15 cigarettes a day and we know that we need to have Connections with people How do we form connections?

And part of it, as you know, we were talking about sports. You are an athlete. Part of it is that you can go and do things with people. They can be together in a team, but the number one way. That we create relationships that we create connections is through conversation, yes, and the interesting thing is that it is not necessary to have a conversation every day. One of my closest friends is a guy I talk to every six or S weeks, but every time we talk. I have a real discussion and I feel as close to this person as any person on Earth, yes, then the question

become

s correct, so what is it?

We are living in this golden age of understanding

communication

due to advances in neuroimaging and data analysis. and now we know what has to happen in a conversation for people to feel close to each other and that is the answer to the loneliness epidemic: empowering people, but why do people struggle so much? I guess building relationships is that they don't have the

communication

skills it's that they don't have the courage to communicate it's that they are afraid of rejection or shame or not being liked or liked by someone why are so many people isolating themselves you think more than ever I think there are two things first Well you know the internet has made it easier as now you can stay at home whereas before it was more boring yes that's part of it but I think the other thing is exactly what You just said, that people don't.

I don't know what the first step is, right, it used to be that you were in a public school in America and they taught you how to have conversations, there was a class, Debate Club, Debate Club, at home, right, they sent the young women to finish schools where you basically learn to be a conversationalist. I'm not saying we should go back to those days, but it was something that people saw as a virtue: teaching social skills, that's exactly right, we only teach social skills unless parents like you were talking before we started. creating those environments and exercises and experiments or games for your kids to show up in public at a restaurant or ask someone for a favor or you know, just show up, yeah, yeah, and it's and like that, the thing is, I think most people who are are scared and anxious and unsure and the answer is that no one is actually born a super Communicator, right?

What is a super Communicator? The easiest way to say it is the person you call when you're having a bad day and you know they'll make you feel better. And for me it's a guy named Greg. I call him on the phone and I know he will make me feel better. He would like to make me feel. I heard it's going to make me happy, another guy named Donan, uhhuh, and you have someone like that when I'm sure Matt's okay, Matt's right exactly and like that for you. Matt is a super communicator and Matt is probably a super communicator to other people. and you are a super communicator to other people, that is not an innate trait, it is not like Matt was born under a different star or had any special charisma, it is likely that Matt has learned to communicate many times by not communicating or many times by feeling left out and paying attention to how other people behave and just noticing what's going on a little bit more.

What we know is that anyone can

become

a super communicator because it is just a set of skills that any of us can learn. In the same way we can learn to read, but as a society we haven't said that it is an important skill set for a while and I think with the emergence of the Surgeon General and others, we are starting to say this well. This is fundamental, is there a difference between supercommunicators and superconnectors? So I think there are some people the answer is yes, depending on what you mean by super connector, sometimes there are super connectors that are kind of like super surface level right transactional like or transactional or you just know everyone and you're like, I need a favor and they say: oh, this guy can help you now that's said when we communicate and this is one of the things we've learned over the last 10 years, you and I having this conversation right now, we're not totally aware of This, but our pupils are dilating at the same rate, our breathing patterns are actually starting to match each other, the most important thing is that I could see inside your brain and you could see inside.

Mine, what you would see is our brain waves start to match each other. This is what communication is. I have a feeling or an idea. I describe it to you and you experience that feeling or that idea to some extent and it actually reflects in your brain. literally neuroscience, neurochemicals, you feel what you're feeling, that's exactly what's called neural entrainment and it's really the core of communication, so when that happens and again evolution is hardwired this into our brain, when we're deeply swept away, we feel closer to we feel connected, we feel connected, so you might be a super connector because Matt is a super connector because he's very good at making you feel like you're crazy, very interesting, but the reason why that he can do it is through through communication through communication yes, that's interesting and you probably know it, the better you can learn to communicate and someone feels bored with your communication, yes, the stronger the connection will be and the stronger the ability to create together or to make things happen together too, oh absolutely and the more superficial the communication I'm assuming or the less alignment you have with each other, the more unlikely you are to create something unique, special or powerful to achieve that's exactly, so let's talk about what supercommunicators like when I'm talking to Mt, let me ask you a couple of questions about Mt and is it like a friend who lives here?

Yes, yes, okay, okay. Co, the best friend in the company, yes, we played college football together. Yeah, so when you talk to Matt, does he laugh? you laugh a lot together you laugh a lot we play a lot I play with him more you know I'm more of a joker but yes, he laughs with me yes, but he's the funniest guy like you're like who's going to be a comedian, he's not the funniest guy funny, right, he's the middle child, so he always learns to navigate both sides, you know, okay, so here's another question. I'm sure if you ask him, ask him, he gives you good advice. advice, but if you said: is your friend the coolest? is the guy who likes knows a lot about it knows a lot about everything a little about a lot true true but he's probably not the smartest person I know, but he's the most rational person I know, what's the key and my guess is, and tell me if I'm wrong.

I bet you if you saw them talk, you'd see Matt doing you and you doing him. is that when you say something to Matt, he shows you that he's hurt you, he proves that you're sure he has and there's something called an understanding loop which is actually like a formalized way of doing it, um understanding loop understanding loop means That means looping to understand has these three steps and Par is particularly useful if we're in a conversation where we're in conflict with each other, so they teach it in the Harvard negotiation program and in law schools and What you do is If you want to show someone that you are listening to them, which is essential if you have a conflict, first of all ask a question and there are specific types of questions that are powerful that we can talk about.

Number two is repeating what that person said in your own words, not exactly what he said, but how you interpreted it, how he heard you, what I heard you say, and then step number three, which is the one we always forget. . If you got that right, interesting now I'm guessing and tell me if I'm wrong, if I was looking at you and Matt, would you say something to Matt something meaningful and Matt it's like you know him man I totally hear you because it sounds like you're feeling down and it's been a tough day and you need, you need to get over this.

Did I understand correctly? Does he do things like that? Yeah, I mean, I guess when you're that close you don't need to know that you did exactly right you get it right now you're so in sync that if he didn't do right I'd say no, that's not how I feel, that's exactly true, I would correct them because we have that kind of relationship, but that makes sense and I think that's what a lot of therapists do too.that we get a good interview, so I will follow your rules well and many times what happens at the beginning of a conversation, even without us recognizing that we are doing it, is that we perform experiments correctly.

I could say something casual. to you and then I pay attention to you, right? You laugh? I could interrupt you and me and if you say how don't you do that again, I will notice it well and what you have to remember is that I don't think what you did was a mistake, that it wasn't even a failure because the objective of a conversation in the The beginning is to work out those rules, experiment with it, and if there are some, and if everyone, like my wife, is a scientist, if every experiment is a success, you're a terrible scientist, right?

You want to do experiments that fail and succeed. , that's when you're learning and the fact that this guy told you that means he actually told you something about how he communicates, he likes it, yeah, and you know that as an interviewer. I don't know if you do this when I'm also researching or interviewing people for myself. I like to tell people when they ask me about interviews or castings. This is my eleventh year doing this program. It will probably be the 11th anniversary when this episode comes out. I always tell people. that the pre-show is the show where we talk for 10 minutes before turning on the camera, yes, it really greatly determines the success or failure of the episode or the energy or the flow is based on the connection when someone walks in the door. the experience and the environment that you create for them, whether it's you or the real environment, your ability to see them, yes, before you continue, and if they feel heard and seen, yes, that's the right spectacle and vulnerability% and I think there is another idea.

That's really central to the book and it's central to what we've learned over the last decade, which is called emotional reciprocity. When I show you something vulnerable, you must show me that you have heard it, but if you share it. something vulnerable in return we will feel closer we really can't not even we can it's like Hardware we can't not feel closer so one person shares something vulnerable and the other at least doesn't show empathy even if she doesn't. I don't share anything vulnerable about them, but if they show any kind of good, then showing empathy is a form of vulnerability, so if you say you know my dad passed away and I'm like oh man, I totally understand that my aunt died 12 years ago. makes it true no that's not empathy that's not empathy that's not I'm trying to steal your thunder I'm not trying to share it but if you said you know my dad passed away and I was like oh man I like it I know how hard it is to say I'm sorry a lot and I have struggled with it.

I'm sure you are if you want to speak well of it. That's all I need to reciprocate that vulnerability and tell you that I welcome your vulnerability. I am trustworthy and, more importantly, I am willing to go there with you. That's when all of a sudden we know the rule, we know the rules of this conversation, we know and and when we were talking before the show and you. I know I asked about Martha and I asked about your life and you're very open and you're very calm with your vulnerability and just hearing that tells me the rules, right, you can be open, yes, it's This is a conversation where we can be honest and we can be MH honest and real and once you have that, you are absolutely right, the rest of the conversation is much easier, absolutely yes, many are the first interactions you have with someone of your type. of experimenting so that you can understand the rules of silent negotiation, what the rules of this dialogue will be, yes, speaking of honesty and challenging conversations, how can a super communicator who might be avoiding difficult conversations with someone who, as a friend or company ? colleague or her partner your intimate partner how can a super communicator?

I guess navigating conflict, disagreement, or challenging conversations is creating a win-win situation is a great ask, right? and there's a couple of chapters on it and it's kind of the biggest questions um and this is particularly in the last two years there's a chapter on um the history of what happened at Netflix because there was a Netflix executive a couple of years ago. years ago in a meeting he used the word n ​​um and very calmly and rightly so, the rest of the company said this is totally unacceptable, but in reality he was threatening to break up the company because he was a popular executive, some people said, look, no He said it as an insult, he was using it as an example and other people. they said this is unacceptable, you can't like that he has to leave, yes, yes, and it took them four months to fire him, but at that time the company was on the brink of the Civil War and therefore the culture was not .

Well, the C, yeah, the culture was just tearing them down, tearing them down, so they hired this woman, Rene Meers, who is an incredible woman to come in and the first thing she did was say, "Okay, look, instead of avoid conversations about race, come on." have conversations about race, but this is how we're going to do it, we're going to start every conversation by acknowledging that this is going to be awkward and by the way, I'm going to make a mistake you're going to make a mistake we're going to say things that don't really come out as We intended, it's going to be hard and number two, everyone at this table deserves to be at this table, so you just know, obviously, someone who is black belongs at this. table, but if you are white you also have a racial experience and because we need to hear that experience, you can testify, you can witness what your life has been like as an expert and everyone at the table has the same right to talk about theirs. experiences and that worked at Netflix, I mean, it actually worked very well, it brought the company back together now, when that difficult conversation that you're having with an intimate partner or with a business partner where there's some conflict, think about how different that is. okay if you sit down and say something serious that I want to talk about let me recognize that this is going to be awkward and I'm GNA I say I'm GNA I say some things that I like, they're not going to make themselves sound dumber than I mean, yeah , and I'm just going to apologize in advance and the goal here is to really understand where you're coming from because you belong at this table as much as I do, yeah, there's like there's three things that happen, one is courage and vulnerability, it's like hey , I want to have a challenging conversation with you, so it's like you're being vulnerable and brave, maybe talking about something challenging, uh, the second thing is really.

Saying that I'm going to be difficult and that I'm going to make some mistakes. I may not say it all, so I say sorry, which is also vulnerability, and then I guess the third thing is that I really want us to come. to a good place in the end I want this challenging conversation to be beneficial for everyone. I think Chris Voss talks about a similar concept around the former FBI negotiator in his book. I think he never splits the difference between what he likes and what he likes best. negotiating something challenging is saying it's going to be a difficult conversation, yeah you're not going to like it, starting with something related to telling it like it is like AOS or avoiding the challenge is at least setting an expectation and people would do it.

I kind of know what the expectation is going to be, it's like when a doctor says it's not going to hurt much, but then they pinch you and you're like, oh, that was really painful, right, it's like, uh, I did a um, I had to do like an implant surgery like with a false tooth, right, oh wow, and because I had my teeth removed when I was younger and I had these teeth put in in the last few years and I asked the doctor, wow, how painful is it going to be? be this and he says it's going to hurt, he says it's not going to be comfortable, he says there's going to be pain, instead, I really wanted them to say, yeah, it's not going to be that bad, you're going to be okay, He says, it's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be painful and I was like ah this, I don't like knowing the anticipation of pain, but when the pain was happening it wasn't that bad, yeah, it was painful, but I met the expectations because he he communicated. clearly exactly and that made me trust him more, made me feel more confident because I knew what to expect and when you talk about this like having this uh, I guess the directness of hey, this is going to be a difficult conversation for me.

Maybe for you, but I want us to win at the end of this, that's totally key and I mean, you know, in the last five years there's been a lot of conversations about racial entitlement and the difference between coming in and saying I want to acknowledge. UPF says that you, as a black woman, have had very different experiences than I have as a white man and I want to really understand you instead of having a conversation about the race that we have been forced to have and where we never acknowledge who we really are When we're talking about race, the first conversation goes much better and the same goes for gender, religion or politics, as you know when you sit with your crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving table, if you tell them like I do, we have one difference. of opinion, but I really want to understand where you are coming from, it changes the whole dialogue.

Yes, when you were doing the research for supercommunicators, what caught your attention the most? You were doing well and it was. a confirmation of what you were doing or something you realized oh, I've had this all wrong and a lot of people are doing it wrong and if we started doing more of this there would be a lot more harmony in relationships. Think that the most important thing is two things, the first is to listen and interact with people's emotional conversation, so think about how often you are at work and you talk to someone and ask them how their weekend was and they said they were like, oh man, my son graduated and I was so proud of him or, actually, it was a tough weekend, like for me, some things just came up and our instinct is often to go straight to the practice, I'm sorry to hear it. that's like, let's talk about next year's budget, okay, let's get to work, but if you just take a moment and meet that person and say like, oh, tell me about your son, I can't wait, tell me. tell me what it's like you say how I'm sorry, it was like a tough weekend, I've definitely had tough weekends, if you want, if you ever want to talk to me about it, I'm here for you. that having that emotional conversation, allowing yourself to acknowledge it and say this is actually an important part of communication and I think it's been super powerful, really yeah, just because I think in 2017 I was at the New York Times and they made me a manager, right?

How was it? I thought I'd be great at it. I thought, you know, I have an MBA. I've had bosses before, yes, and I was good at the logistics part. He was a terrible manager. It was so bad. because because of the communication part and generally what it boils down to you're a writer you're an award-winning journalist who's an expert at this, believe me, I like it, it took me by surprise too and, time and time again, what happened was someone would come and I would basically say, I want to talk to you about something emotional and I would treat it as something else, you would go straight to the practical or something social or like problem solving, yeah, and if I had just slowed down and said Okay, look, just Tell me how you feel.

I just want to understand how you feel and listen to it. It would have changed everything. I would have been a better manager, so that's the first thing that's really shaped how. I communicate, the second thing is that the human superpower is proper communication, the reason we survive as a species is because we can communicate the reason we have thrived and we have instincts about how to communicate and the other thing I have learned is to Being a super communicator means learning some things, learning tools or skills, but the goal of those tools or skills is really just to remind us what our instincts are, ah, because our instincts are actually very good, yeah, and when we make a mistake usually it's because we don't listen to our instincts we don't listen to our instincts yeah, yeah, instead, we're like, well, you know, I'm supposed to behave this way.

I'm supposed to be a macho or I'm supposed to behave this way. be that's great, yes, we talked about loops to understand, we've talked about deep questions, we talked about the three different types of conversation, yes, I'm curious how to have a conversation that turns into a lot of opportunities for you, what? is there any way to do it? Learn from your work in this book that people might say that if I started doing this, I would unlock a level of abundance. Financial abundance, better opportunities for me. Is there a certain style of conversation? I should have a way of listening that unlocks abundance, is there anything of yours?

Yeah, so let me ask you a question because I know this podcast started with you looking for mentors, right when you were coming out trying to learn, yeah, so when you approach someone before you're known. You're like a young guy, you're approaching these people as very successful people, what do you do to make them take the time to tell you their insight? You mentioned something in this book that I think you're going to do.To doreference here in a second, it's about really creating a relationship with different things from the past or whatever, so originally I would communicate with people through Linkedin, this is in 20078 and nine for my other business that I had and I would reach out to them, leaders in sort of a local community in Columbus, Ohio, CEOs and executives, and I would email people originally and just say, Hey, I'm inspired by what you've done.

Can you help me with any kind of advice? ation yes and I wouldn't give any answer maybe a couple of things like hey I don't have time for you or not right now and then I started experiencing other things and I started really researching the person I was going to message and email. e-mails and on LinkedIn you could see where they went to school, different clubs and associations they are part of. Hobbies, interests, also different connections that they had with you in second and third grade, so I started saying well, let me try to find different things that we have in common and in the first sentence of two, I would say you know, hey, Charles, I see that We both live in New York City, you know, whatever it is, there's some common ground.

I see that we and nine million other people are both, uh, you know. They are both authors. I have written a book and I see that you like to run half marathons and I ran my first marathon last year. Whatever it is, I would try to find three levels in common, yes, and when I started doing it. that it was almost like every single person was responding to me and everyone was giving me a time to meet on the phone in person or whatever I asked they would give me time now based on that conversation about time and how I presented myself and my gen being genuine and asking the right questions that determined what was going to happen next, but it got my foot in the door to at least have a conversation creating that level of common interest from shared past experiences and the better I dug in. and understanding based on a profile and able to communicate our shared interests, more people wanted to connect with me so this is what I hear you say and tell me if I'm understanding right because if you email me and say: We both live in New York .

We both run marathons. I would say it is more direct to what we say. It's more direct. Let's say you know. I see you're in a softball league. I played softball. Actually, it is not like that. There's no reason I'm necessarily going to respond to your email because we both love softball. That's true. What you're really saying is that I'm showing you that I want to connect. I'm doing a Ure. I'm not just falling. I sent you an email because you're a famous person, right? I said 30 of them today. In fact, I spend some time doing what is known as a connection bid.

So one of the things that super communicators do is make these offers like many times without us realizing it when I asked if Matt laughed a lot, one of the things we know is that super communicators laugh a lot more. I saw that in your book too, yeah, but they don't laugh in response to things that are It's funny, uhhuh, they laugh just because they want to show you that they want to connect in interesting ways and when you laugh, you're showing that you want to connect. I think you did some research there or something, it was like I could.

I don't remember what that percentage is, but most people just laugh, not because there's anything funny. 80% of the time we laugh not in response to humor, but to show another person that we want to connect with them and when they laugh, they show us that. that we want to connect the other thing about super communicators and I love that you mentioned that when you met with them you asked the right questions. Super communicators tend to ask 10 to 20 times more questions than the average person, but that's not the case. It doesn't feel like an interrogation because a lot of the questions are things like oh, that's interesting, tell me about that, yeah, tell me more, yeah, tell me more, like, how did that work?, yeah, yeah, what did you think about that? , why, why, why did you do that. like why did you do that there are questions that are so quick that we don't register them as questions but what they are doing is again they are showing that we want to connect showing interest showing interest showing listening showing showing that I'm opening up For me, there's something about vulnerability, that vulnerability tends to be the strongest expression we can make if someone says something vulnerable, we can't help but hear it.

Wow, right, all reality shows are based on this principle, like our brains are programmed so that when we see vulnerability we have to stop and listen wow and when you say to someone I see we both love softball and I like it, right? Can I have a couple of minutes? you are exposing a vulnerability and they listen to it in an interesting way and it makes you seem trustworthy. So that's what I would say is what creates abundance is making those offers to make that first offer and laughing at someone's joke to show them that you want to connect to ask them. a deep question to say that you know I understand that you probably don't want to talk to someone like me, but I've done a little research on you and I find you very interesting, can I just ask you a couple of questions, right, that vulnerability, that authenticity, We heard that, yeah, I understand that you're probably the busiest person, you probably don't have time for someone like me, right, but I'd love to be able to ask you two or three questions. absolutely and by the way you're probably going to say no, but you know that just and by the way we both went to this high school like by the way it's something it's something by the way the fact that we both went to that High school doesn't mean anything, but the The fact that I looked up what high school you went to shows that I really want to connect and it's fascinating.

I don't know if you say: where did you go to college? Yale Yale, yeah, I don't know if anyone came up to you and said, I don't know, 24, who just graduated from Yale, who wrote in the Yale newspaper and they came up to you and said, "You know, I know that you". You probably don't have time right now because you have all this stuff going on, but I'd love to have five minutes of your time. We probably both went to Yale. You're probably more likely to respond to that person. that someone at Harvard who said the same thing, right, and it's not just because of the association, but because they sought me out, they know enough about me to know that we have something in common, the fact that they went to Yale.

I haven't been to Yale in 20 years, right, it doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter, it's not part of my identity, but the fact that they did the research to find out where I went to college, so if they went to Harvard and said or if they went to the University of New Mexico and said I saw you went to Yale and I've always admired Yale and I was wondering if I could ask you a couple of questions, literally someone did. this three days ago and I spoke on the phone with them and I told them: don't become a journalist as if the industry is disappearing, but that's how it is and it doesn't matter as much what you say as what's behind what you say the message I'm sending in the same way that when I ask you a question and you answer me vulnerably and then I reciprocate that vulnerability, we are making an offer to each other, yes, and we are seeing whether that offer is accepted or not is correct and asking advice from Someone is not an offer saying that I researched you and I admire you, can you?

I just ask you a question that is an offer that is interesting. I'm curious about this Tri. I met you 10 years ago. your life really changed in some ways with Power of Habit, right, yeah, like putting yourself on a map in a different way, you had a successful professional career, but it wasn't as big a platform as when that book came out, right, no. It was transformative. What is it like to be a super communicator before success comes? When you're trying to figure out life or your career or develop your skills and talents versus the boom.

I want number one. New York Times Piller Award winner three years on the times list 10 million copies of the book like boom, an explosion of this world YOUR ESS what is the difference between being a super Communicator after and before so I think what happened I will say so in 2013 Power of Habit comes out and that's the same year that I won the pzer award for this piece that I was doing at the New York Times about Apple it had nothing to do with habits um and it was definitely the hardest year and such maybe one of the worst. of my life really how is that possible and the reason is because it went to my head and I stopped listening to my instincts as if they were simply blocking me from getting to that.

I like what I found was like when people start telling you how smart you are, at some point you start believing them and that's always the road to ruin. Fortunately, I have a wife who told me how stupid I was, that helped a lot, but it was really It was a challenging time and I think what happened is that it made you more successful than ever, you had more money, more fame and all that was brilliant. I feel very lucky to have had that. I feel very lucky that this happened and it was the lowest moment for you, like, you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that year and relive it, it was so hard that I felt, I felt like every chance I got, I felt like I was at the top of what I had.

I won the lottery and twice yes twice twice and yes me and the only future was downhill and by the way if I don't keep winning the lottery it's my fault because as I am I'm a fool like me I wasted this opportunity and then I got so into it in my head that I actually stopped being a super communicator to be honest, I just talked a lot more than I listened because everyone wanted your advice or thought you had all the answers or whatever, yeah or because they were giving me money to get on. to the stage and since no one ever says that your idea is not a good idea when you are standing on that stage, it is when you are in a newsroom or when you are with your friends or when you are with your spouse, they are the ones who think it is a dumb idea, like you're not thinking clearly and very very so the reason I wrote super communicators was because I had these experiences. where I felt like I was a professional communicator and I was doing something wrong and I actually wrote one night and I sat down and wrote down over the past year all the places that I felt like I hadn't been able to communicate, like it was a fight. with my wife we ​​could have avoided a manager at work and not doing a good job not doing well for my team my team um my kids come to me and like you know they clearly want to connect and I'm stuck on like some article I'm writing or something too busy or whatever, yeah, and it's not like I'm a monster, like I'm not doing this all the time, but the way I looked at it, there was like once every two weeks, once every three weeks.

It was something and I thought to myself, if I'm so smart, why do I feel this way? So the way you started the book was by calling in experts and just saying I have a friend who is bad at communication, right? true but I would say it sounds like you know this is a fight I had with my wife they explained to me what I did wrong and that's when they started saying there's actually a science behind this you can learn this science like you can improve. Given this, a big part of recovering from that success was learning to listen to these instincts again, wow, they were there, that success had become harder to hear even though the words you just shared there, recovering from the success, there are so many people who want to be successful they want to make more money they want their work or their message to be a bestseller they want to be recognized for their work their efforts they want to win awards they want more followers but when you get those things initially I had to recover from them It was the most challenging year of your life Yes, what is it about fame, money and success?

You wish everyone knew. You know and many people. I mean, you've talked about this eloquently. Tim Ferris has written. This the problem is that when you're chasing something and the chase is glorious, the chase is pure, it feels so good like you know what to do every morning, when you wake up, you start to think that the goal is the thing at the end of the day. Hunt instead of the chase itself like you were so focused I was so focused on winning such a powerful prize like I wanted it so bad and the disappointment was, I mean, I love that I won it, I feel like it's a real honor, but once it disappeared as a North Star, I thought: what do I write about now for the New York Times?

So I think what happens is there was a big emotional hangover for you, like how long did it last? The joy lasts when you won. F surprise, I don't know, 30 or 40 minutes, really, yeah, because then I started stressing about what I'm going to say in the speech. I have to think about this guy, how can I navigate, like, yeah. "Because that's what people like. Everyone who listens, they listen because they want to be better, not because they want to be the best once you're the best. That's less fun than improving yourself, right. I want say, frankly, them".

We are already the best of all thoserumors that this vaccine can harm children. You know, it would be fine for older people, but for my kids, I'm really worried. Then you can say it again. You are an expert in you and I am an expert in me, you can say that I hear perfectly what you say. I also have children. I am very concerned about the safety of my children. What's hard for me is that I see kids coming in every day that are unvaccinated and sick and I can't help them well and that's really like it's hard for me to see that now I'm not telling you that you're wrong. to tell you that you are stupid I am not telling you that you don't know what you are talking about I am telling you my experience because we have something in common we both care about our children it is good and the incredible thing is that I I have spoken to dozens of doctors who have had Taught how to do motivational interviewing.

They say that over and over again what happens is that person starts the conversation by saying, "I'm against vaccines. I'm never going to get vaccinated. They feel heard." They feel that the doctors listened to what they said, they reaffirmed what they said, they shared their own experiences, and in the end they say, you know, I'm willing to try, I trust you, so I'm willing to try. the vaccine and this motivational interviewing technique. There have been a lot of experiments in politics about using this technique and what they found is that around the marage game it was kind of a platform that was used to try to study this more effective way of getting someone to support gay marriage who said that doesn't support gay marriage is to ask him what he thinks about marriage, don't argue with him, don't disagree and then say, you know, I think marriage is really important too and I have a friend James who is gay and loves his boyfriend and What do you think we should do to make them experience how marriage is really important?

You and I like we both like to say what do you think we should do help me in help me Understand where you're coming from, that's actually what worked overwhelmingly, it worked, it was actually like a 6% change in the voter. , in the people who are dragged, which in politics is not changed. 6% of minds about anything wow and it was because they didn't argue, they just heard say you're wrong, you're right or whatever, they just said what's the best solution, how can we make this work or and we both like it. , we both think of this as we both think that marriage is very important and that I love this guy, James, and you know, maybe you know someone who is gay and you like him if he came to you and said: I love this person and I want to show my love for them and like you just told me how important marriage is, how do we give them that, yeah, and suddenly it's like we're on the same side of the table, we're, you agree with something. , Yes, we are. solve this question together interesting instead of disagreeing with each other true what they say like marriage conflict or relationship conflict it's never you versus the person it's the two of you versus the problem that's exactly right it's being addressed well this the problem is this as we can? solve the problem together, yes, no, you did this, I or I did this or whatever, here's the thing, let's find a solution and when we are in conflict, particularly in a marriage, we have this instinct to try to control the things because, like us, you feel that conflict is scary, right, you want to control it and the easiest thing to do is try to control the other person as if you were wrong.

You should believe this if you say I'm going to leave the room, but what researchers have found is that the way you say we're going to focus on the problem is that instead of trying to control each other, we try to control things together, like controlling when this discussion happens, instead of doing it at 2:00 in the morning, yeah. when they are both ex aused, yes, let's wait until 10: a. m., when we like to have some time or try to control the boundaries of the fight, like instead of where are we going to spend New Year's and your mother-in-law. -The law drives me crazy and we don't have enough money as if you two sat down and said "okay", what we are going to talk about is where we are going to spend the New Year, not about mothers, not about money, how we control the limits From this discussion together you are suddenly on the same side of the table and you may not agree with each other right away, but you feel like you are working together.

That is absolutely powerful. This is something inspiring. I want people to get the book Supercommunicators. how to unlock the secret language of connection I truly believe that the power of the quality of our lives is related to the quality of our relationships and the quality of our relationships is directly related to what you are talking about in this book, which is how to communicate more eloquently, more intentionally and more easily with other people and really understanding where people are coming from, so if you want to have a better quality of life, make sure you get this book and understand this process and again, this is a powerful thing. . especially now, when the loneliness epidemic is at an all-time high in the US, yes, and it's something we really need to think about over the next decade of life.

Are we going to become more alone? Are we going to have fewer skills and tools? for communication, what effect will that have on our health, our opportunities, our lack of abundance, our security, all these different things? Learning to communicate will be the difference between having a miserable life with your friends and family, being in conflict or having a beautiful life. Yes, based on your ability to learn these skills, so I'm very grateful that you decided to make these your last few years of curiosity and diving into this and I want to give you credit, Charles, for continuing to seek wisdom when you don't have it. you've made a lot of money you've won all the awards you've been at the top of every list you've sold almost 10 million copies of your books uh you don't have to keep being curious and keep adding value to people who have done a lot so I want to thank you for taking your time to create and create information that can help us all.

Oh, thanks for posting this and I want people to get a copy of this. book, how else can we support you at this time? Where should we go to follow you or connect well with you? And let me start by saying thank you, thank you for having such an amazing conversation with me, thank you for being like that. honest and vulnerable and real and authentic um if people want to follow me yeah luckily my last name is doig I'm like the only Charles doig on Earth if you Google me you'll find my website you'll find the the most important books on my website and um In fact, in the endnotes of the book are my email address and every person who sends me an email, every reader who sends me an email, I read and respond to their email, no way, yes, yes, until Now there are more than 28,000, holy cow. and the reason is because you have to live what you preach right, like someone would take the time to send me a note that they have invested time and energy in you.

You owe that debt of honor, spending like four hours a day. day just responding to people, it's, it's, it's, you let them develop, so I just spend a Saturday like going through them and reading them, but I'm Charles

charles

.com, if anyone wants to reach out, I will. I definitely see your email and would love to hear people's stories about how they communicate, how what they found helped them be super communicators when they needed to. I love it, so they can follow you, receive the book by email. You, um, you're not, you're on social media a little bit, but you're not there too much, right?

Yes, not as much as it should. I see you are sailing and I see you traveling, we both were. in Japan last year I think you were, oh yeah, were you in the same place? Were you in Japan at the same time? I saw you with the Arches. I didn't post my photos, but I saw your photos there. I thought it's cool, um, very. Great for people to be able to do that. How else can we support and serve you? Honestly, the best thing you can do is if you read the book or have heard an idea that you think is powerful, share that idea with someone else.

I mean, earlier we were talking about if I can, if I can change one or two people, if I can make one or two people better communicators, it's relatively modest, but if we all make one or two people better communicators, that epidemic of loneliness will disappear. I'm absolutely right if there are thousands of people saying, I'm willing to have a difficult conversation with you. I want a model for you. How to do this. I have a friend. They have spoken to me in six months and it seems. It's awkward to call them, but I'm going to do it because they may feel alone right now.

That's the real gift that I think anyone can give to me and themselves in the world is to just reach out and try. and communicate, that's great, that's great. I asked you this the last time we had a conversation, but it was a while ago. This is a question I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three truths. It's such a hypothetical scenario that you can live as long as you want. live but it is your last stand Earth you have created everything you want to create personally professionally Hobbies you do everything from this moment until that day but you have to turn off the lights and go to the next place and for whatever reason in hypothetical question, you have to take all your I work with you so that no one has access to this book, no books, articles, interviews, it's all over, yes, it's hypothetical, but you can leave behind three lessons that you know are true from all your life experience, everything that I've learned what those three truths would be for you that you would leave behind, so I think the first one that immediately comes to mind is that the more you invest in your spouse and your children or any relationship, that's the closest relationships.

Whatever you have, every ounce of that investment will be worth it and it will pay back to you about 10 times over and there are so many times, especially when we're chasing success, that we don't invest in the people around us and whatever. that reward is that you get whatever that money is that you get, it's nice, it's liberating, but it's not as nice as a wife who loves you or kids who enjoy spending time with you or a husband who thinks about the world. you or just having a great friend that you can call anytime that's beautiful, so that's number one, number two, I don't think I've ever heard that, oh really, that's, I don't think, I don't think.

I remember hearing about investing in people like that and how you'll pay back on your investments, so that's really cool, and number two, I think it always pays to bet on yourself, as you know from when I went to business school. I graduated with my MBA and decided to become a journalist and I was the lowest paid member of my class for the next four years, like if I went to Harvard Business School, everyone wanted to make a ton of money. I was making, I think $40,000 my first year after I had like 90 thousand dollars in student loans, but the thing is, I thought, "I'm going to bet on myself, I think I can figure out how to make a career in this and all the that I know." you know who did it, they did it because they bet on themselves, not because they bet on the safe path, not because they bet on the wisdom of the masses, it's because they bet on themselves, so bet on yourself, and then the third is that.

As soon as you get something, you don't really enjoy it until you start giving it away, like when I found out that I was lucky enough to make some money with the power of habit and I tried to donate to charities and I gave it a try. To support my friends and I have never felt as rich in my life as when I give a check to someone who needs it. Otherwise, having a lot of money is great because it frees you up, but it can also be a little stressful. right, you're like managing all this stuff by spending too much tax I was like man, this is the richest I've ever felt in my entire life, so I think that's true not just with money, it's true with

influence

and kindness, but as soon as you find something, that's when Give it away you say oh this is something I really have wow that's cool those are great lessons man I love that so what are yours?

I like it? Which are? Do they change? They've definitely evolved over time, but I would. I say my three truths right now would be to live in gratitude, yes, and really have perspective on life and look at the beauty and gratitude of things that are happening as opposed to the negative sides of things, live in gratitude always it makes me feel. better, it always puts me in a state of gratitude and when you appreciate something, you tend to appreciate and value it even emotionally, so living gratitude would be number one. Number two would be to make your health a high daily focus, physical, emotional and spiritual health.

Yeah, um, when you're sick, all you care about is being healthy,You know? And it's like there's no other problem that matters in the world when you're sick, except that, when you're healthy, you can have a lot of problems but it's like when you're sick you have a problem, yeah, getting healthy again, so stay healthy because I think that will enrich your vision of life, your relationships, everything that you will be able to move more easily in the world and have more energy and the third would be living in service, you know, this is really living in service in a relationship, being a great listener, great communicator, I think it's a service, yeah, I remember when I was starting out after football and I started meeting with these. type of mentors I didn't know what value I could add to people I didn't have skills I didn't have money I didn't have talent I thought, "They're getting to know me, but what can I do for them?" Yes, and I started to realize that asking them the right questions that they could reflect on and remember stories and share them was a great service to them.

Yes, it opened them up, it excited them, it's like they felt like they were empowering me by teaching me how to be myself. adding service to that and therefore developing deeper relationships and thus living in service to the people around you is what I would say is my third truth. Those are really beautiful gratitude and service. I'm going to totally steal them. I like yours though. I like your last question for you, Charles, what is your definition of greatness? Honestly, my definition of greatness is that when the day comes that we die, people show up and say, you know what, I really liked meeting these people, this person that my father died for.

Six years ago and I went to the funeral and all these people showed up, so many people and they just said, I like it, your dad brought some joy to my life. He's great and he did a lot of other things, right, but like me, I don't know what could be better than when you're no longer there for people to be like, I'm so glad I met that person wow, that's great, yeah that's greatness yeah Charles thanks man I appreciate it thanks so depending on In my daily interactions I can get so caught up in my world that I can't practice and like when we started traveling right after the pandemic, I'm getting ready to go to the hotel.

I have not improved the hotel. while and I almost really convinced myself