Martin Brundle: Racing With Senna And Schumacher | F1 Beyond The Grid Podcast

tour carts and that kind of stuff, but um, and you get on and you're just, you're young, you're stupid, you don't know anything, you really think you know, um and you're like, yeah, you get on and Well, I'm used to winning. , so I can win again in a Formula One cast, so you show up with that kind of attitude and then you find out it's quite difficult how different Formula 1 cars were from then to today, oh my goodness. They were so analog, I mean, they were so angry at the formula strikers, basically, right? They just have a lot of power and I think that's why we underestimated the cars back then in a way that they had big, sticky tires.

And you had a lot of fuel, that was the difference between the Junior races and the form one, the amount of fuel when you were sitting on the

grid

, the relative weight of the cars, I mean, very light back then compared to how they are now, But I think you do too. It was very easy to get to them. I mean, I remember a test day at Silverstone in a McLaren with Eron Stefan and I and we all got it straight away, actually, but because that's a small part of history you could go in and make them talk, make them work, make them go. fast, but it was everything else and you needed it because there was a lot less data back then, we didn't have any sensors in the car.

I didn't even have a button on the steering wheel at all and then we took one for a drink um and finally one for a radio because Ken Ken used to come and plug into the car when he or my engineer Morris Phip did it. plug it into the car to talk to you, there was no boat or radio let alone any kind of sensor, telemetry or data, so the experience counted for a lot more than it should, so going for a spin was easy, but yeah, being consistent was the difficult thing because the responsibility was on you, yeah, and such a long race and such a heavy car, um, and you, and that's why people like Nikki Louer, you know who was on the

grid

, obviously, and um the more experienced drivers, Alan and people like that, they had. the kind of knowledge that you know you couldn't there, there was no such thing as a setup before you, there was a feel before you went to the race and then you worked on the springs, the dampers, the anti-roll bars and something like that.

I set up the car in a very analog methodical mechanical way, so with all the data and all the simulation tools that young drivers have today, would you say it's easier for a rookie in 2024? No I dont think so. I think the cars. they're really complex um and the idea of ​​driving around Monaco changing things on the steering wheel like they do I can't understand it uh just like they wouldn't be able to understand 3,000 gear changes during the race, you know? and you're coming out at the end of the Monaco Grand Prix with blood coming out of the palm of your hands because you've been changing gears and if you missed one and you know you damaged a dog ring in the first 10 laps 50 laps later that gear will be It would have completely exhausted you, so it was a different challenge, but the skills have changed, but the best drivers still make the best use of what is available to them, as they always did when it surprised you. olle bman, for example, in Saudi Arabia, so I think now the drivers are very well prepared mentally, physically, nutritionally, on the engineering side with the simulators, so it was very impressive that he kept his head in terms of just doing for the car to work.

I'm not that surprised, but when he had Lando and Lewis chase him in the second phase of the race and kept him off the wall and kept his head intact, that's what impresses me because they're just very well prepared and they know that They are very mature in comparison. I mean, they got into Formula 1 at 24 and I felt pretty young at the time. So doing that when you're 17 or 18, like we saw with Kimmy. do or or Max or whatever, I find it incredible that the pressures off the track today are greater than in their time, they do a lot more media and a lot more marketing and sponsorship work than we used to do, so I think When we're not at the track, they're a lot busier than ever on a Grand Prix weekend and I was traveling to the races with journalists, you know?

Can you imagine that now you barely have time? I don't have access to them as a journalist, you know, traveling to races, whatever, but I think it's just that the challenges have changed and they've adapted to it, but having someone you know working with you coaching you and, um, someone . grab your crash helmet when you get out of the car and sort it out uh and all the things they have now, the support they have is incredible, I mean I remember where it was in '94 at McLaren my first race at McLaren in Brazil, which is the accident that It almost killed me when Yoser Stappen and Eddie Eddie Irvine got together and their car rolled over and hit my head and luckily some of its wheel well hit the roll bar with the McLaren.

Otherwise, I wouldn't do it. I won't be sitting here talking to you now um and my head was hit like a bowling ball basically um I got out of the car I collapsed I couldn't get the attention of the Marshall CU they were busy looking at the track they showed up after about 15 minutes after returning to the pits, interrogate me and fly home, I mean, we didn't have a support system, uh, and that, so what was that 30 years ago, so now they have a lot more help and a lot more advice and people around them to help them. to prepare better, which is how it should be, it's much more professional and do you think there is more strength in depth today than there was 30 years ago, 40 years ago in terms of uh yeah, in terms of the number of drivers, you mean that? ?

They are credibly eligible to be at absolutely peak performance and there is that pressure tapping on your shoulder. I mean, look at Logan Sergeant, for example, in Melbourne, he gets benched. I mean, you've already talked about the drive, but how hard is it for a young man in your position to defend yourself from what happened last month, you know what you have to move forward, you're privileged to be a driver, there's a queue behind you, there's no point in reflecting I'm not talking about Logan at all, I'm talking in general, um, you know, poor me, you go in and take the wheels off and that's good and in 1984, something similar happened to Aton Senna, was benched for the Italian Grand Prix after a contract dispute with Tomman, yes, when he returned to Nurburging, he actually caused an accident in turn one that took out four cars, including K.

Rosburg and those things, so I was eager to prove something, but I guess that's the other side. That's because there was that Mercedes celebrity race and he won it ahead of Nicki, so Senna was a guy who just got along and personified, I guess, everything you say about how your attitude was going to be in the cup. Aton. being world champion, right? At some point, sooner or later, there was no doubt about it, but I think so, I think in those days the drivers were maybe more dominant in a team, you know, when I think about it . on the grid I faced Nelson PK Alan Prost Nikki stronger Ki rosberg um renie aru Patrick tomay Jack lafi and these were tough, tough people they were, they were kind of global icons without social media, right? but they were from a different school, if you like, in terms of how they got to F1 and how they stayed there, they were, I think they were stronger characters to a certain extent because they had to be.

I mean, let's talk briefly about Senna. This year is the 30th anniversary. The sphere in Las Vegas on May 1st was Senna's helmet, so you know, the legend lives on. You miss him? I do it because you wonder where he would be now, right? I mean, obviously he would have won more world championships if we hadn't lost him in Mayday 94, a race that I was in his car for, actually we didn't. He was in the McLaren that he vacated to go to Williams, but um. One wonders if he would have already been president of Brazil or how far he could have gone because he was that kind of man.

You know he wasn't going to just retire from motorsports and right? I know, do something else, he was, he was on his way to even greater greatness. I think so, but from a personal point of view, what do you miss about Eron Sen? Do you know that he was so long ago and that I received so many blows to the head? I once used Eron in a Formula 3 car. I wore the role of him on my head on my shoulder at Alton Park, but I think so. I miss them. I hadn't really thought about that until you.

I just asked that and the same with Michael Schumacker. I feel sorry for them because they missed the positive side of his greatness. Yes, do you feel an element of guilt that you survived and they didn't? No, not at all, because you talked to war veterans. and they will talk about that guilt for having survived if their companions and friends did not do it, but you do not feel that no, I do not do it because it was not, it was not voluntary, it was leaving the trenches in the war or whatever, it was something obligatory. in that sense, so you drive a

racing

car because you want to, no one forces you to do it because you want the privilege, the pleasure, the excitement, the glory, um, so no, you know like I said before that

racing

drivers are quite selfish people and um no, I, I think there was even the opposite of that, I think there's even one that I don't have rhythm, you know, there and you know, I mean, I don't want to.

Be freaking out because I'm not freaking out about it at all, um, but you know, the stories of a driver who died in the era that I'm talking about, before my time, maybe in the '60s and '70s, and the boss The team had so many phone calls, you know? For drivers who wanted to get in the car where a driver just died, it's a competitive environment and I and I think you become desensitized to all that, otherwise how can you do it if you're scared? of dying or getting hurt or someone gets hurt and you think I don't like that you're in the wrong business, well you're in a very privileged position because you were Michael Schumacker's teammate at Benetton and you went crazy with it. and Center in Formula 3 tested McLaren, of course, at the end of '83 with him.

What is it about those two that stood out? Were there any common traits? U so sen and Schumer so sen was a man driven by his heart, he had a God-given talent. for grip and speed and understanding how a car works underneath it, I've really seen that. I stood on the side of the track in the '60s and saw Jim Clark, um, who is a man, I imagine he had that kind of gift too. I think Max Stappen has that gift of understanding grip when you see it in the rain or whatever, of just understanding where the grip is and how and other drivers too.

Lewis, I think he's another driver, but I don't want to get into that list, because it's a separate conversation, but Eron had a talent that was something very special, a kind of incredible feeling. Michael was taken out of his head, uh, completely and was a little more methodical, I don't think he was. He had the raw speed of Eton or even Mah, to tell you the truth, but Michael was very intelligent in and out of the car and I think that's where he made the difference, he galvanized the whole team around him, he got all the right people. . pointing in the right direction for him and he won his championships and and Michael was so smart and he just did it in a different way and what was the most devastating talent for me and I think if you ask any driver or any sport person, they will tend to come close to their own era because that's what they know best, so, for me, the greatest driver of all time was him and Senna, um, I, he, he had, he had this gift, this talent, I mentioned it and I saw it .

He raced against him for 11 years, in F3 and F1, and what have you, but he was quite a complex individual, so the most complete driver was Michael, what do we mean when we talk about talent? Bruno Senna told me something recently about ET and when he said he had incredible depth perception and I actually thought it was interesting in China just a couple of weeks ago where they had a basketball net when you walked into the paddock and a lot of the Drivers were throwing and receiving. hoops from a long time ago and I was thinking, God, it's the deep perception that good people have that Bruno Senna was referring to, what do you think talent means?

I think it's when it's really easy for you that it's um, you believe. it's normal and everyone else thinks it's extraordinary in terms of and yeah, we've done those tests where the lights come at you and you have to press a button when you know and we always did some kind of reaction test or whatever. I mean, I think F1 drivers end up being pretty good at that kind of thing because yes, they have some kind of eye coordination, but you also see it in other sports, don't you know the center forward who just can't? stop SC from scoring goals or always in the right place just the little dull touches on the ball or whatever and I think if it's easy for you then you can't understand why everyone else can't do it uh just, you know a Sixth sense is just natural and you know, when you start a Grand Prix and you go into the first corner you can't think about anything, there's no time, you can't think, oh, he's doing that, so he better do this or that. to be.

Do you live by your wit and your talent, but when you compete, would you observe theprevious race starts at that track to see where the advantage might be or was it purely reactionary? I think yes, yes, if you try to plan a start you will always fail, basically you have to react to your start, all the people around you, especially back in the day when someone could miss a turn off the grid or something like that , you know you too could get stuck or spin your wheels. A lot of it is like that, I think if you ever think, you have a general idea of ​​what you know, a goal, but in terms of a strategic plan, you will fail every time.

Can we briefly talk about the technical aspect and how? That's changed in the last 40 years, I mean, what were people's attitudes in 1984? Did teams respect the rules back then like they do today? Well, not us. I mean the FIA, I think they do an impressive job of policing F1 when you see Joe B's list at the end of a Grand Prix of what has been verified, you know, an hour or two later, it's exceptional, we didn't have that, I think. there was a little more imagination in that you knew how you could get around the rules and you know there's no doubt about it, you read that they always read the rules twice, once to see what they said and the second time to see how to get it. around them and they still do it today of course, but it's much more controlled than ever, so I think you know the teams are now, but the cars are so complex, it frustrates me a little bit as a commentator because Can anyone do what seems like a big overtake and you find out that the other driver was harvesting or was cutting or had some kind of problem with the cable or whatever, that kind of voodoo, you can't work on it.

I say it's a lot more digital now than it was in analog cars decades ago, but yes, people were creative, no doubt about it back in the day when teams were pushing the rules, but no, there's cheating going on. . The sport was, I don't think it was ever attractive or to be applauded in any way. I just think there was more scope to do that and you know, we know we know when cars used to be pushed onto the road. Bridge, you know this is before my time, but the mechanics have lead balls in their pockets and we're rolling down the exhaust pipes into the Cosworth and um, well, Martin, so I think you know where I'm going with this.

Because if you look at the record books, uh, I don't think your first season in Formula One counts. I think it's been a little scratched, right? Yes. I wasn't in Formula One, so at home. I have three huge chrome screws where they put my foot in my leg and they look immaculate, they actually look fantastic 40 years later and I have the Detroit Trophy and the screws are next to the Detroit trophy because Yes Yes, I don't exist in '84 , so I was lying on a bed on Harley Street with both legs up. I was there for a month with both legs up in some kind of stirrup while it was being fixed and I got a call from Barry.

Gil, a journalist, told how you got to my room and said: Hello friend, can you tell me? Do you know any comments on how Trell got it? um, you know, he was kicked out of the championship. I didn't know anything about it and Ken hadn't done it. I didn't have time to tell myself that so Tio worked so we were the only team without a turbo engine so we were 400 horsepower short in qualifying and probably 200 in the race so we were always at the back of the grip . but we had a really agile car. The tur team worked.

I mean, Ken had to do something about it and it was fine. You can weigh a car at the start of a race. You know, before the start of a race, you can use it. at the end of a race you can't use it during a race. So we had a very light car and then, and I didn't, I was so green that I didn't understand what was happening with five laps to go, he pulled. I went in and they, you know, this torpedo went into the side of the car that included water and lead shot and I came out of the pits and I remember telling Ken one time very early in the season, I'm literally on I.

I was still selling cars during the first races of the season. I was going home from a GR PRI straight to my dad's dealership to sell some Toyota CUs. He had all the money he needed. I had to do that and, uh, talk green, but. I was like Ken, why do we have to go in? Well, the water injection ran out of water. Can't we put a tank bigger than CU? It was really inconvenient to go in with five laps to go. Anyway, then it became clear. What was happening? It's interesting that he didn't tell you, but they didn't kick us out for that.

They didn't fire us for that. Ken wouldn't sign a document for anything to do with turbos in the future. and I needed unanimity back then, uh, for whatever Ken wouldn't do it, he was a tough old guy and so the only way to accomplish this was through what they wanted to do because Ken didn't have a Turbo Charge engine, so it wouldn't. I didn't sign, it was to get him out of the championship so I wasn't eligible to sign so we got kicked out for having a trace of fuel in a water tank, an auxiliary fuel tank and we didn't even fill the main tank at CU.

We had a Cosworth dfy we didn't need full fuel we didn't need a full tank of fuel to go racing but they fired us because of the auxiliary fuel tanks not because of the torpedo oh because the general feeling is that every day at school you know that just but Isn't it crazy that it's a crazy story? but isn't it crazy that Adrian knew he was getting into Formula 1 at this time when all this was happening? Yes, they talk about the experience that man has, but he is on and off the court, isn't that true at all?

Yeah, I mean, and I hear everyone I know has pushed the limits of the regulations during that time and I'm sure Adrian knew you some flexible front fins or whatever, but um, yeah, Adrian and the indie. car I also mean what he achieved there, he is an extraordinary individual that is more important Adrian Nei or the driver uh Adrian Nei, so if you have a Grand Prix, you would sign it before, yes, because then I can get the drivers I want, so there are two. The people you have to have if I brought the Brundle GP and those were Max Fappen and Adrian Nei.

Red Bull has them both, but they just lost one. Will they lose the other? He will do well, yes, do you think? Nee. to be continued I think he will I think he's a competitive animal um he's a friend of mine and uh you know Adrian is a great director man and um but I think he'll get a little bored yeah so I think that's where I mean to when. Do you think Rory Burn still has a contract with Ferrari at 80 years old based in Thailand or somewhere diving? Yeah, um, Adrian will want to do it.

I mean, the 2026 regulations have Adrian written all over them in terms of performance, you know the complex active aerodynamics. whatever, but that's not to downplay all the other people, Pierre you go and you know there are a lot of very smart people around and I and in a way, today I mean the first Grand Prix I did, there were 12 people in the call sheet, including Ken. and Nora Trell and the two drivers, that meant there were eight people driving two Formula 1 cars and I think Mercedes just announced their results. They had 13, just under 13,100 people on the team, so you know there's a lot of people around. and it's wrong to say that one person can make a difference, but I guarantee you that along the way he just hinted at a couple of things and came up with some ideas that made a difference, it's that little magic dust that it is, yeah. just the experience and the knowledge and the kind of feeling for what you need, so I would be surprised if in the future I didn't have some kind of affiliation, um, with a Formula One team.

I would be surprised, actually, red team well, so the teams that, um, you have to have a lot of money and a lot of resources, otherwise there is no point in having Adrien new, you can do it if you feel him in office but you don't have the assets around him and the funds to use his ideas , then it doesn't make sense, especially since he won't be cheap, so yeah, all the teams will be like now, now we are very happy, as we are, thank you very much, because they might not catch him and B because I don't want to bother the team that they already have in place, um, but yeah, clearly Mercedes, Aston Martin, McLaren Ferrari will look and try to get it somehow because it's a double-edged sword, because if you can get it.

Adrian's experience and skills, then you have him and someone else doesn't, so I will try like crazy, if not it should be Martin. I loved having you on the show again, just to catch up. about your experiences in 1984 Formula 1 today. Do you have confidence in Formula 1 in the medium and long term? Do you think the sport is in a good place? I think so, it's amazing to just show up in traffic and try to get a hotel room. or a flight or whatever um it's bigger and better than ever and I've been around for about 41 years and I find the global knowledge of F1 quite extraordinary um I would like to see more variation in winning in the winners of course you would know and more changes on the front absolutely over the decades we've always had a dominant team or driver um um and I look at it in a different way uh it's me.

I'm very happy to see Max do what he's doing and see it myself, uh, and stand by the track or comment on it or whatever, but yeah, of course, I would like someone to come up and challenge him every weekend, um, but in general. Speaking, looking at how many countries won a Grand Prix, looking at the media, it's really fascinating right now. And you know, to be honest, I thought the Netflix thing and opening up social media seemed like a bad move. because I had Burnie in front of me at the time, you know, he controls, he controls the message, he controls the income and all that kind of stuff, but it just exploded, it's not like that and you really feel it here in America too, yeah. and then yeah, but even in the European races you know a lot of fans from North and South America come up to you and they're in Hungary or Barcelona or whatever watching the Grand Prix so it's I really expanded it um in terms of um It's a kind of global consciousness.

It's po. It's popularity. Can we continue like this? Well, time will tell, we sure will Martin, thank you very much for your time, thank you.