Live Taping of “The Axe Files” with Jon Stewart, hosted by David Axelrod

Hello. Welcome to this

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recording of "The Ax Files" with Jon Stewart. I have the privilege of introducing you to this event today, a task that necessarily involves introducing you to someone you already know. You know Jon Stuart. You know that as a political satirist and comedian, Stewart has influenced macro-level changes in our political culture. One example is the explosion of satirical programming from Daily Show alumni. You already know that Jon Stewart's precision and focus produces more low-key changes like taking "Crossfire" off the air and passing the Zadroga bill. I'm sure you're also aware of some really microscopic permutations in our shared world that Jon Stewart has affected.

One of those microscopic changes is that Jon Stewart took me to UChicago. I wrote my application essay comparing Jon to Shakespeare's Fool in both his ability to speak truth to power and his position as a performer and voice of reason for the audience. That comparison may not make much sense to anyone who hasn't spent every summer at Shakespeare camp, thanks Mom and Dad, but I think we all know how Jon Stewart made us feel when we watched him skewer the news. We felt smart when we understood the jokes. We felt understood when Jon articulated the things we had been thinking.

We feel catharsis. That's why it's strange for me to be here today and introduce you to Jon Stewart. Do you know him. He has been an integral part not only of our internal

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s, but also of the way our entire media sphere has grown and changed over the last decade. I can tell you unequivocally that I would not be where I am today without Jon Stewart. Do you know him. And guess what. You're about to meet him. Without further ado, let me introduce you to Institute of Politics founder and "Ax Files" host David Axelrod in conversation with the man who didn't need this introduction, Jon Stewart.

And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN, Ax Files with host David Axelrod. Now you can say: This is how Jews meet all the time. When people aren't paying attention, we sneak into churches and just chat. By the way, that theme song was actually John D. Rockefeller's original theme song. So... Yeah, you have to be a rich old man to have your own theme. So, Jon, do I have to ask you where you've been? Me? Yes. There is a lot going on here. I've been in line. I got in the front row.

Have you ever told yourself that this was some kind of big joke from heaven for you, that you announced your retirement from The Daily Show and I see that when you did it you said that it didn't look like there was going to be anything wildly different this election year . You had done four others. How does that work for you now? I mean, I think we talk about it like it's something incredibly different. But really, how different is it really? I mean the media, as always, focuses on the wrong things and abdicates responsibility for the overall percolation of toxicity.

You have huge amounts of money flowing into crazy people who are funneling the population of years past. So I don't... you know. If you took Sarah Palin's head and stuck it on Donald Trump's body, would it make more sense? Probably not. Although I think it seems a little strange. I don't know if it would seem weirder. Yes, on that point you once said: I guess there are bad actors in society. It is inherent in politicians to be false. I guess the monkeys are going to throw shit. I get angrier at people who don't go, bad monkey, or...

Wait, did I say that? --that create a distraction that allows it to continue unabated. How responsible is the media to Donald Trump? Oh, listen. I don't necessarily think that a full court press on its veracity would necessarily change it. I mean, he didn't... he was voted for. But I do think that, overall, it's the conclusion of years of... it makes sense if you look at it through the prism of radio. I like to drive. And then I listen to radio programs. And they are taking your country away from you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. As far as I can tell, the conservative side or the right side feels like they own America.

They are the administrators of the United States. They are your ancestors. Exactly. Republicans and conservatives love America. They just hate 50% of the people who live there. So, overall, isn't part of your concern that that 50% percent, or whatever percentage, is becoming a larger... we're becoming a much more diverse country? Sure. So, yes, no nativism. Look, this is not like it is inherent only to this country as well. Globalization has created this strange regression around the world. You see many countries retreating to nativism, to that kind of reality... In fact, there are characters similar to Trump all over Europe and in different countries.

Yes. Yes. He is. He's very similar to, I don't know if he ever saw "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." He is very similar. But no, in a way it is a natural reaction to fear. Now, if that fear is stoked daily at an incredibly high level, and it isn't, we really need to do something about this country, we are facing some difficult problems. You are ruled by a tyrant. He is going to take away your rights. We are falling. There are rapists and murderers on the border who come to kill you. If that's what you've been fed and that's what you're accepting, Donald Trump makes more sense than anyone because he's doing so well, let's build... the Visigoths are at the door.

Let's build a damn wall and not allow... makes a lot of sense. What wouldn't make sense is for the general republican leadership to go there and there be Visigoths on the wall. They are here to kill you. Let's try not to pass a new budget resolution. That's it...his rhetoric has never matched his action. Donald Trump is saying, oh, that's your rhetoric? So, yeah, let's build a wall. There is a strange paradox in both their message and their attacks: on the one hand, they say that the dictator is invading and threatening. On the other hand, his criticism of the president is that he is irresponsible.

And it's hard to be an irresponsible dictator... Are you suggesting... unless you're Groucho Marx in Duck Soup? Are you suggesting, sir, that there may be a slight cognitive dissonance? Is that what you're suggesting because I won't sit here? Some... And let them tell you. Look, I don't even know if Donald Trump is eligible to be president. And that is not a question of birth. That... I don't know. Look, I'm not a constitutional scholar, so I can't necessarily say that: Are you eligible to run if you're a man baby? Or a man baby? Look, I don't know.

I don't know, and I repeat, I'm not here to be politically incorrect, if you call them "baby man" Americans, but he is a baby man. He has the physical countenance of a man and the temperament and hands of a baby. So having all this together, I mean, for God's sake. I should be... So I have a history with that man. And so, in an effort to reveal everything, we make fun of him. And I think we refer to it as a boiled ham with a wig or something like that. Who knows. And then he tweeted at me because, as you know, great leaders...tweet. --tweets late at night.

In fact, I remember Lincoln's tweets at Gettysburg after his speech. That's why the speech was so short. I had to do it in 240 words. Well, after the Gettysburg address he tweeted, emancipate this son of a bitch. This is what Donald Trump tweeted to Jon Liebowitz. He thought he was going to use my birth name. Is your name. My birth name is Liebowitz. Jon Stuart Liebowitz, Jonathan Stuart Liebowitz is my full name. He was going to tweet that and then he tweeted: be proud of your heritage. Don't run away from who you are. By the way, it is overrated.

Or something like that. Incisor. It was very incisive. And then we thought, well, geez. Let's answer. So we responded on Twitter with Donald Trump's real name, which I don't know if you know is FuckFace Von Clownstick. And... The research they have to do in that program is incredible. Yes. We have people. LexisNexis will tell you. That's why we wanted to know why he was running away from Von Clownstick's inheritance. And we got into this big fight. And this... Did he sue you? He tends to sue people for things like that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if baby man can be president.

Character is destiny. And he is the thinnest skinned individual. And look, you've been surrounded by politicians. You know they have thin skin. You know President Obama for all the qualities about him that you love and get angry about. And I have certainly endured... --irritated, I would say. Sometimes I have borne the brunt of that. Yes. I have heard. Yes. But I don't know if he has, and they keep saying, which I think is a wonderful thing, don't worry. When he is president he will be totally mature. Well, he says being presidential is easy. And he will do it at the right time.

But what does that say about your electorate if what you're telling them is, look, the only way I can win this part of the race is to be an unrepentant narcissistic asshole because that's what my voters like? But once I have to appeal to everyone, I'll be fine. Yes. But the fact is that if you look at all these exit polls from primary after primary, the big number that he dominates is that he tells it like it is. He says things that other politicians are not willing to say. And you talked before about people who are scared by these changes in the economy that have left them without the kind of future they thought they would have.

And they are eating it. Right, but that, again... and this gets to the point. Authenticity is what they say. However, this gets to the point of the press versus the campaign. And what we see in the press is that they cover the campaign but they don't cover the veracity or... so, the exit polls say that this is what people think? So someone from the press has to come out and say: wow! People must be idiots. Because it's not okay to think that. You know, it's not okay to be nostalgic for Mad Men society and think that ignorance is a virtue.

And they have twisted this so that their ignorant pronouncements are somehow a sign of great character. It's like where I grew up when people were like, hey, don't be disrespectful. I'm not saying your mother is a whore, I'm saying... and you're like, I think that's what you're saying. The difference is that he would simply say that your mother is a whore. Good. But when he says that people are very nervous. Look, here's what's so surprising about this. So the idea of ​​political correctness is that everyone is very sensitive. Just get over it. Why should African Americans be so sensitive to police shootings?

Why do they have to be so sensitive to the years of systemic racism that create economic disparity? Come on. I am not a slave owner. Donald Trump couldn't stand us making a joke about him. In Vanity Fair, Graydon Carter made a joke about Donald Trump's hands 25 years ago. He still isn't over it. And his hands are no bigger. So Muslims... not true, by the way. In fact he had a peel... Finger extensions? Trump International. And if you see them now they say Trump in gold letters. But the idea is that Muslims...hey, all he says is that they are evil and shouldn't be allowed in this country.

He's just telling it like it is. But God forbid you say happy holidays in December, he's a fucking war. So who exactly is the sensitive one here? We're just talking about what the trigger points are. And to me, trigger points seem to be, on the one hand, based on a certain reality of life that only those who have no experience or empathy towards what those people are going through have. And the other seems to be clinging to a social paradigm that simply no longer exists and probably never existed. When was America great? What is this time you speak of? 81 to 82?

What are we talking about? And who took your country from you? Yes. Whose country is it? Whose is it? Yes. Resume the discussion with the founders. Continue with the Age of Reason. That's, you know, all men are created equal. That ruined everything. Yeah. The other thing that I think people who are joining him would say... I mean, I think part of it is based on pure racism and nativism and all that. But there's also the fact that the economy, as you mentioned, globalization and technology have made many jobs obsolete that didn't require a college education. Because these kids are going to do great.

No, I don't know anything about that. Well, there are... I'm not that impressed with them. There are three or four that are not going to do very well and you already know who you are. They may do very well or they may not. But... but I want to say that my point is this: we haven't paid enough attention as a country to how to guide this change and make opportunities more widely available. I think education is a part of it. He's not talking about that. But that's really the debate we should be having in this country: what are we going to do with this great revolutionary change that has left many people behind.

Correct, but there is a situation in the government that makes it very difficult. If government is... the fallacy of this whole thing, and maybe it's a holdover from the Marshall Plan and everything else and nostalgia for the World War II era, is that the United States can really control things in a orderly matter. This idea that we can somehow control: we live in a postcolonial world. We no longer have a borderwestern. As if it were just reality. And globalization is not a matter of (American politics cannot do it). That box has been opened. And the problem with globalization is not that the United States has not managed it.

It's what American companies would prefer: money travels, people don't. So if they can send money to places where they can hire 100 people to work 12 hours a day for $2 versus 10 people who only work eight hours a day for $15 an hour what are they going to do? So this has nothing to do with it... It's the argument Trump has been making. But here's the real political incorrectness if you really want to be honest. The problems in this country are not due to Mexicans and Muslims. And if you somehow want to confront what's really going on, the problem in this country is that there is a party in America whose sole purpose is to freeze the government and not solve any of the problems associated with it.

They have a big game where the government sucks and can't get the job done. And then they can sit as an impediment to that government and point to its destruction as proof of their thesis. It is a great tautology. And whatever everyone says about Democrats, maybe they are irresponsible, maybe they focus too much on identity politics, or they are not fiscally responsible, at least they try. Yeah, well, I'm not going to debate you on that. Did you know? You are not the same without the mustache. I know. But thank God you removed your facial hair so we can still carry the torch there.

I apreciate it. I want to talk a little bit about Hillary Clinton. WHO? Before we do it, before we do it, obviously... you haven't lost your edge. You haven't lost your passion. Have you been restless watching all this without having the platform you had? Obviously you can create a new one and I want to ask you if you are about to create a new one. No I'm not. I'm not worried because what I gained by leaving the program in perspective is that when you are in that soup it is very difficult not to start thinking that the world works with that currency.

There are only two cities that I know of that are so arrogant. And that's in DC and Los Angeles where they really believe-- and we saw it again with Larry Wilmore-- At the White House Correspondents' Dinner-- --at the White House Correspondents' Dinner-- I want to ask you about your reaction. . Larry Wilmore attended the White House Correspondents' Dinner and everyone went crazy. Oh my god, it's over. With what? He has finished. He is not running for anything. It has not finished. They will never ask you again. I don't think he gives a shit. Good. Know. And when you look at the post-show analysis, it was all based on whether he had helped himself or not.

How some in the room had read it and no way... A little narcissistic there. --but not just narcissistic, but in no way an examination of the foundation of what he was saying, which is that you are an incredibly corrupt and blinded symbiotic terrarium. Yeah, I don't understand why that message wasn't well received. Here's the thing. Not well received, not received. Yes. Not noticed. They didn't notice it. What they noticed was that, well, he didn't laugh much. It really failed. Yeah, well, that's the strange thing about the White House Correspondent's Dinner because there's some kind of strange symbiosis between Hollywood and Washington.

And their similar communities. That's why actors come to Washington and love to mingle with politicians. Politicians love to mingle with actors. And there is a narcissism in those two communities that is very similar. You made dinner once, right? In '97? I did it right after Imus. And Imus made a famous joke, I guess, about Clinton's leanings. And again they said: For diplomacy? Yes. For reading mainly. I have to look... obviously we're in a church. I can only go so far. Or actually, you know what, I'm outside their jurisdiction so I can say whatever I want. He'd be ready to strike me down with lightning and say that's not his house anyway.

I think the problem is that the system is incentivized in all the wrong directions. And right now the system is incentivized in the same way that a crack dealer is, which can cause tremendous damage. But as long as people buy crack, everything will be fine on their block. And I really think it's that corrosive and corrupt. When network presidents say Trump is good for business. When the main Fox News host has to go to Trump's hotel to get him to stop being mean to her and now he says she's great because they had a détente.

That's fucked up. I don't know how you describe it: There are network bosses who have said that Donald Trump is great for business. Well, why would you kill something that's great for business? Why would you even say what it was? I asked you at the beginning, you were very dismissive about what the role of the media has been. But what you're suggesting is that there is... that they have a pecuniary interest in the Trump story. Correct. I think what I was responding to about the role of the media is whether they can figure it out on their own.

But look, broadcast journalism was ahead in the Nixon-Kennedy debate. You know, that's when the television medium... That was a while ago. --she entered. Good. I was there. You were there. We were pages. --came into force. Basically, Kennedy understood a somewhat rudimentary thought: he should probably wear makeup. And Nixon said, "I look great." Then he came out and everyone thought he had hepatitis and that was the end of his campaign. Since then, an entire industry has emerged on how to manipulate and skew that medium for the benefit of politicians and the powerful. And the industry, rather than somehow creating a counterweight to that, has been subsumed by it.

And now it is a symbiosis. The media is no longer predator and prey, which I think the relationship should be, but rather a drag that is simply stuck underneath waiting for crumbs to fall from the shark. Even though they do... I mean, yesterday I saw Trump with George Stephanopoulos who was trying to investigate. I don't know if he saw the program, but he was probing him about his various proposals. And Trump said... he said you know his tax plan would be a windfall for the rich. And Trump said, well, it is now. But once we negotiate it will no longer be.

And basically lose his entire position. So, but they don't challenge it, they just... No. But you're talking about singular anecdotal moments. You're talking about floating logs in a torrent. You know, the relentlessness of the cycle requires an equal counterbalance. A counterbalance does not mean that you occasionally push back to a small extent while the water passes by you on all sides. I think Fox has an advantage. Who understood that to take charge of the cycle you have to be relentless. You need to perpetuate your point of view and your propaganda in the same way that people consume it, which is constantly and automatically reinforced over and over again.

Which seems to be... Unless you have something pushing you with the same force, you won't have any balance. Well, the interesting thing about this election is that you said it's not much different. Trump has basically adopted that tactic. I mean, it's relentless. He is omnipresent. He's out there all the time. He just learned to... he's just practicing judo against them. What works for 24 hour networks? What is it incentivized for? He's incentivized by...this is what he'd like to be incentivized for: clarity. What are you incentivized for? Conflict. The voices that are amplified are the most conflictive, the most extreme.

Those are the guys who get the airtime. So if they're incentivized for conflict, Trump isn't playing this like everyone keeps talking about how he's awesome. He is not. This is the first season of Survivor. This is Reality Show 101. I'm going to be a huge idiot at the beginning of the show to get all this attention. And then once I get to the final tip, I'll reveal it. What's the boy's name? Johnny Fairplay. This is Johnny Fairplay. He's the guy who said, oh, my grandmother died. And don't expel me. And finally, when he got to the final tribal council, that's what he's playing.

What... tell me about Hillary Clinton as his opponent and what... I've never run against her, so... What would you say about her if you were doing your show right now? What I think about Hillary Clinton is that I imagine she is a very brilliant woman without the courage of her convictions because I'm not even sure what her convictions are. So I would suggest that when I see her campaign... when I see her campaign it reminds me, and again I'm throwing out references that mean absolutely nothing to anyone, so I'll continue to do that. Reminds me of Magic Johnson's talk show.

And I won't say anything else. You had that thought too, huh? If you ever watch Magic Johnson's talk, Magic Johnson was a lovely person. But he wasn't a talk show host. And when you watched his show, you could almost see the advice Arsenio gave him in real time. Then he would sit down and we would leave, my first guest tonight, oh, Arsenio said that enthusiasm is something he sells. My first guest tonight is Cher, everyone. But it never seemed authentic and real to her personality. It looked like she was wearing a suit designed by someone else to make someone else be someone else.

And that doesn't mean she isn't preferable to Donald Trump because right now I would vote for Mr. T over Donald Trump. But I think she will be in big trouble if she doesn't find a way. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there isn't a real person underneath. I don't know. Did you work...did you dabble on the government side when you were advocating for the Zadroga Act for 9/11 survivors? Did you work with her on that when she was a senator from New York? No. So I never... I worked with Kirsten Gillibrand. I see. So she was already out of the Senate.

She's great. Kirsten Gillibrand is great. So by then Hilary was already out of the Senate. You must have had it in your program. Yes. And how was that? Really cool. Look. There are politicians who are proving her inauthenticity long enough to appear authentic. And then there are politicians who express their lack of authenticity... it's like when you want to play games on your computer... if you have a Mac and you want to play a Microsoft game on it... Yes. --and there's that weird lag . Yes. That's Hilary Clinton. That is a big problem. There's like a seven second delay.

And all the words come out in a perfectly politically calibrated phrase. Good. Now what gives me hope is that there is a delay, which means that she is somehow fighting something. I've seen politicians who don't have that delay and express their inauthenticity in real time. And that's when you realize that you are a sociopath. That is an encouraging message. By the way, as far as uplifting messages go, I have never in my life experienced what I experienced on my one day lobbying in Washington, D.C. And let me say, however I painted it on the show, it's much worse. than you can imagine.

It's a cesspool. There are good people trying to survive inside the lava. But it's a fucking horror show. No disrespect. No. There's... Just the fact that you're at the Institute of Politics where we try to encourage young people to go out into public... Can I say this? Get into it and don't get on top of it. Never... I was there with the firefighters who had spent a year in the smoking remains of the World Trade Center. The guy I was with, Ray Pfeifer, had a titanium rod in his leg that was breaking due to metastatic cancer spreading through it that he contracted from being in the pile.

We had the scientific evidence with us. You cannot imagine the lack of respect, the lack of compassion that was shown towards this man and this cause by people in higher positions. It was... I'll never recover from it. This is my theory because I can't sit in front of 1,000 young people and not say this. You have to... if you turn around and walk away from this and just convey all of that to the people you're talking about, you'll get what you get. And it seems to me that there is a certain obligation to go in and try to change it.

So you say go in there and don't be fooled... Yes. --but we need it. We need that. This is the most public-spirited group. When I say don't get angry, I don't mean don't get involved. I mean take proper precautions. Wear a hazmat suit. Bring your ideals. Every time I speak, and we used to do this every year, we would bring in the press secretaries from the entire Senate and all the people from the House of Representatives who wanted to come in. And they were like, so what can my candidate do to make a successful appearance on your show?

And I would say that he or she could speak his or her mind on issues relating to the United States. And they say is there any other way to do it? But they would say, but what do I tell them? What works best? When people say what they believe. What's that? And honestly, since I know you think I'm being hyperbolic, I recognize that you don't understand this. I am not. They are as unaware of their own machinations as you can imagine. And I'm not even saying it's malevolence. This is how the game is played. I guess it's survival.

It's a sect. But you must have met people from '99 to last year doing the show. You must have come across people who did it, who were dismantling and... Sure. No, I must have. Do you want a few seconds to think about that? If you wait.There are people that what you would get there is the same thing you would get in the news industry, which is, people will take you aside and say, yeah, man. Stinks. You're absolutely right. It's terrible down here. Yeah, you'd just go, mmm. But you know, I don't want to sit here as some kind of defender of a system that is seriously broken.

Good. But there are people who do make a difference. Every day. You mentioned Kirsten Gillibrand. And there are others who actually go there and try. The amount of energy you have to expend. I'll just accept the 9/11 bill. This is as obvious as it gets. This is a horde of zombies that would stop eating brains and leave, yeah those guys should get medical attention. That makes sense. So run out and find a horde of zombies. So these guys for nine years had to travel with cancer, mesothelioma, low lung function and heart failure. Nine years of incessant lobbying to move this organization.

And it was only through their lobbying efforts and some measure of public shaming that they gave in in the most condescending way to finally relent. If it takes that effort to do something so easy, it's a system that must be... it's perpetuating itself in a way that's dangerous right now at this point. Know. But I saw, you know I saw, and you were there doing your thing, I saw people vote for the Affordable Care Act who lost their jobs. People who voted for a limit on trade to try to do something about climate change lost their positions.

And we should, and there are some who didn't, but we should at least recognize that there are people who are willing to do it. I always say that Pro

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in Courage was a slim volume for a reason. It's not the norm. But it's something that we should... I guess what I'm saying is why in God's name should that be courage? In what world are you taking a political stance and trying to change legislation that should be? And, by the way, what behooves those who believe that government can make a difference in people's lives is to try to make it more efficient.

And I think that's where Democrats fail enormously. In your world, if one believes that government can make a difference in people's lives, then make the bureaucracy work more efficiently. Make the regulations that are strangling small businesses, don't just open the Fed window to 0% for corporations. Force them at some level to give at least a percentage of that to small business loans. I mean, and I understand that they're trying, but... and you, your boss and I had a big argument about this, but the VA. If an executive order can be made to kill a US citizen from above with a missile, how can an executive order not be made to re-evaluate the DOD and VA system so as not to spend a billion dollars trying to obtain two computer programs? talk to each other when three of these idiots could probably do it for $500?

Do not wash. And on some level (and then I'll blame the Democrats), the door is open to a moron like Donald Trump. Because Democrats haven't done enough to show people that a government that can be effective for the people can be efficient for the people. And if you can't do that, then you've lost the right to make that change and someone will come and demagogue you. Yes. And that's what happens. I don't know, John, if the people who follow Trump follow him because of his efficiency. I think there are other elements. There's others. I don't disagree with you.

I have always said this. That we will be committed to ends and not means. And if the means don't work, then change them, you know. I think challenging the government is something Democrats should do. But on the other hand... Let me ask you a question. Is government too big to manage? That is a very good question. And I think what happens is that we have a country of 330 million people, so the government is going to be big. What I think happens is that bureaucracy is built on top of bureaucracy and embedded on top of itself. And especially in the age of technology, there is an opportunity to do things better and more creatively.

And I think the government should... Can you think? But let me say this. Let me say a few words about this because I think before we get too cynical about it. This is not cynicism. Don't confuse... No, but let me... Don't confuse this with cynicism. If you talk to one of the 20 million people who have health care today who didn't, you will see that they have a fairly positive view of the government. You know, if you talk to people who have a Pell Grant or if you talk to people who are finally, after all these centuries, enjoying all their rights, American gays and lesbians, etc., they feel positively that the government has been at least his side. in recent years.

So I think it's a little too general to say that there is nothing, that no progress has been made. No. No one had... I would definitely agree with you if that was what he would have said. But that's not what I said. OK. What I said was... to back up, let me say this. Can you imagine how disconcerting it is for someone who talks about government efficiency to talk to the man who basically helped get Barack Obama elected and you are a powerful guy who has basically been part of the group that has been in charge of the government for Eight years to say, yeah, you know, bureaucracy is bureaucracy.

What are you going to do? And you say, I don't know. Here's the thing, John. Government... Yes. The system we have and you wrote the definitive book on the United States Constitution, so I know you know that. The government we have is difficult to move. We moved a lot in Obama's first two years as president. The year 2010 arrived and there was a huge tsunami. And we've had a situation where there's a gridlock... not a gridlock, but a very divided Congress. And the system is designed in such a way that it makes it very difficult to do things under it.

No doubt. So, you know, I would have liked us to have come to power and not have a massive economic crisis and some other things, I would have liked to focus on this project, which is how the government is rationalized. for the 21st century. There are these projects underway within the government, but it is very difficult to reverse them. Good. But all I'm saying is if people can see that his re-election effort is incredibly nimble, and honestly, I still get emails from real people like Barack Obama sometimes on TV. I don't know how they discovered it.

But if you're... By the way, you're behind in your donations. If you are so agile at campaigning, why are we so good at campaigning and so bad at governance? Because campaigns... because campaigns are not as complicated or as challenging as government campaigns, because you have complete control over your campaigns. Let me tell you something: When we make a decision in our campaign, I don't have to go and ask Congress to confirm it. OK. We could just move. And then campaigns are not government. You cannot act in the same way that executive action is used, you cannot use it against bureaucracy.

No, you can. And so it has been done. And there have been different ways. Are you happy with what you did in that sense? I am convinced that if there had not been the resistance we had in Congress, we could have done more. There is no doubt about that. Am I happy with... So we agree? Yes. We agree except for this point which is... Yes. By the way, this is how Jews make love. This is, just so you know, like him and I when we're done with this, this is like eating latkes on top of a top with like...

We're missing... where's the corned beef? The only thing missing is a guy to the right of Genghis Khan who could just walk in and leave, Israel has the right to defend itself! so I'm just pointing it out for those of you who are getting nervous. This is how we communicate. We had a guy like that standing here a few months ago. But no, I have to say: I don't go to school here, so I don't know what that means. No no. It's too easy to compare campaigns to government. The reason I don't think it's easy is this: And again I think that's part of how easy it is to say they're two different systems.

Well, we are at a point in our government where if extraordinary measures can be taken to solve a crisis like the bank bailout, then extraordinary measures can be taken to solve a crisis like crumbling infrastructure and bureaucratic nightmares. John, you can't buy an executive order to fix crumbling infrastructure. Money is needed to repair crumbling infrastructure. Good, but you can fix... You need a Congress that is willing to work with you to fix the crumbling infrastructure. You can solve some of the problems in hiring. You can fix that. If you can do it. And some of that has been done.

And that's my point. But the point is that it cannot be solved by contracting insufficient financing for infrastructure. I don't understand. It is a battle that has been going on for years. But listen, we only have a couple of minutes left. I just want to ask you, I know you hate... Sagittarius. You stray... no, this was like you were a tree. Yes. You deflect the questions onto yourself. I have two. And one is that when you were a kid in Jersey you couldn't have imagined... Wait, wait. Wait a second. Thanks for that. That was the right amount of applause for New Jersey.

Wait, when you said when you were growing up in New Jersey and I literally just heard this. As you would do if someone made a putt in the master. But you couldn't imagine that you would be giving your opinion and that the world would cling to your words about politics on the social scene. I mean this wasn't... you couldn't... this wasn't the goal of your life. This is important because I think children, some children, are taught to believe that they need to have a life plan. You didn't have a life plan to become who you are now.

I did. Well, you took a circuitous route to get there. I grew up in a laboratory, a comedy laboratory. I mean, I think I see your point about protecting his innocence and his enthusiasm. Please don't misunderstand. Criticism is out of love and despair. No, I totally understand. It is not cynicism and defeatism. In fact, I am not a pessimist in any way because this country has proven to be resilient based on the fact that its foundation is the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment. And that will be what helps us move forward. We have faced darker times than these.

We have not made it. Much darker. And they have. These guys are going to make a difference. I think one of the things that is changing in this country is that young people are more tolerant, more aware, they feel more rooted in the world and not just in their own lives. I think these guys are going to change things. But you're getting sidetracked again because you're not talking about yourself. Then I'm going to give up. I'm not going to give up on the whole Jon Stewart story because we don't have time for it. But it will be in...

You're missing out. But he will be in a nearby bookstore. But I have to ask you about how to move forward. Yes. Because HBO has been suggested. Maybe you would participate in these elections. I'm not going to be on television anymore. The goal of getting older... Are you going to participate in the next six months? Are we going to see Jon Stewart in a more visible way? I feel like I'm committed now. I mean, the one thing I also want to make clear to people is that when you're not on TV, you're still alive. And you are still engaged with the world.

And maybe now I feel more engaged with the world in a real way than I ever did sitting on television interviewing politicians and convincing them. Do you have any creative projects planned between now and November that have to do with the election, whether online? I mean, we're working on technology in animation to try to do cool little things and if we can figure it out, it'll go viral. I don't... I repeat, I like to do what you think is good. And if you get 50 likes, great. If you get 500 likes, your life exists outside of TV, likes, and Instagram.

Engage the world. The reason I was talking about bureaucracy is... my wife, who is much nicer than me, you would love her. She's... we're starting this sanctuary for farm animals. So we had to go before a local agricultural board in Monmouth County. The epitome of true American civic engagement: the civic society. The work that these people did, they were all farmers, the board is made up of 10 farmers, the work that they did to preserve and maintain agricultural life and what they do, their way of life was inspiring. If you want to talk about inspiration, we can explain it to you.

There are stories like that all over the country. The questions they asked us were stimulating. They helped shape this project in a way that greatly improved it. And they had to deal with a huge amount of paperwork that made no sense to anyone. And they did it with humor and with a certain resignation. But they did it. This must have confused your lobbyist. Yes. Yes. But the thing is, between now and November, do you expect some projects to emerge?related to elections? Oh, maybe so. I wish I had a better answer. I just do not know.

We are working on it. I'd love to have it ready by September or something like that. But not necessarily for the elections, like it's D-Day. Like, again... But it's an important moment for the country. I mean... Like I said, I'll still... I mean, I'll vote. No... in other words, you know... let me put it this way. The October surprise in this election is not a two-minute cartoon that I am going to publish. The powers that be are working very diligently. Television has never been so full of beautiful satire. There are people from John Oliver to Sam Bee, Stephen Colbert, Seth Meyers, Trevor, Larry and...

I am very impressed and amazed by the level of insight and wit that is displayed on television every day. There is no shortage. They are all great. They are all great. But I will say, and we'll end here, that there is also a Jon Stewart. And if you move, people ask you why he's not here commenting on this. But we're so lucky you're here to share some... I'm delighted. I always wanted to be confirmed. And this counts right? Yes. As soon as you put something in the collection plate. Alright. I'll do that. Alright. Let's ask some...

Yes, let's ask some questions. Thanks for listening to Ax Files, part of the CNN Podcast Network. To watch more episodes of Ax Files, visit CNN.com/podcast and subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite app. And for more programming from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, visit politics.UChicago.Edu. That's that Rockefeller song again. OK. Let's answer some questions. I'm glad you came to ask. I thought everyone was leaving. I was like, hey, what? Thank you very much for coming... I don't think the microphone is... Yes. Oh, right. Thank you so much. Here we go.

You come next. I'm sorry. Thanks for being here. Thinking about this election cycle and the rise of condemnation of Trump or Sarah Palin to Paul Ryan or whatever, are there limits to comedy, the effect it can have, and are there certain topics that are off-limits to political satire? ? For the first one: no topic is off-limits unless you have one that you would like to discard because no topic is off-limits in life. And I'm still waiting for someone to ask a politician that question instead of a comedian. Because all I hear is that people always say: where is the limit?

And they always ask comedians. Where is the line? But very rarely do they say to presidents and senators: where is the limit? What pump would the line be? So it's always interesting to me that people think that comedians are somehow the ones who take human nature too far. But the actions of our government are, in some ways, ones that we all accept. And I would say that, in terms of the effectiveness of satire, I am of the school of Peter Cook, who was a great comedian. Dudley Moore and Peter Cook were a great team and he was a British comedian.

And once he was asked: What is the greatest satire you have in mind? Who had the greatest satire? And Peter Cook, as normal comedians would do when asked that question, would say: I don't know. And then the interviewer said, well, I think it was the Berlin Follies in Munich and Berlin in 1938, the rise of the Nazis. And Peter Cook said, yes, they really showed Hitler. And that's how I feel about satire. Hello. Thank you very much for coming. My name is Baxter Stein. I'm a second year here at university and my question is about politics and comedy.

Yes. And that's why one of his intellectual successors, John Oliver, works hard every week advocating for policy change. Yes. So, I just want to know more about his philosophy and what are the most important political areas that he believes comedy can have a big impact on. I'll give you a minute. This is the only thing I would say. Shame can be a last gust of wind. Comedy cannot have an impact on politics. People can have an impact on policy. The grassroots lobby and the foundation lobby can have influence. Looking at 9/11 and Zadroga as an example, nine years they worked tirelessly down there.

At the right moment, it's like... you know what it reminds me of? Return to the future. He built the car. He spent his entire life building that car. And all the man had to do was make the clock hand go to that one thing. That's comedy. You're just... when the lightning bolt, if there's a moment that could help the guy who's made his life's work so profound, if you can somehow focus some energy on that at that moment at just the right moment, it can be a catalyst. . But in no way can it be confused with activism.

Comedy and satire are an expression. They are an artistic idea. They are not activism. It is nothing more than a painting, a song, a joke. None of them can change anything. Occasionally they can focus a conversation on a crucial moment and help the good work of all the people who have dedicated that time. And I never forget that. Nothing we did meant anything compared to the grassroots people who worked tirelessly anonymously against all odds to do the right thing and had to do it in the face of headwinds that shouldn't be there in the first place and are artificial.

John, when you started the Daily Show, when you went to the Daily Show, it was a very different show than the one you inherited then. It was a more celebrity-oriented show. Sure. Did you make the decision early on that we're going to do a political satire and use the platform where we can be that final ingredient or did this all evolve over time? No. None of this is explicit and conscious. What I made a decision on The Daily Show when I made it is that I'm not interested in this. I am interested in this. And if I'm going to spend here every day, 12 hours a day, I want to work on something that interests me.

And that doesn't interest me. But at no point was there anything explicit: We're going to turn this ship around to focus here and make changes there. It was, that seems boring, that seems interesting, let's do it. Hello. I'm Brock Huebner. I am a fourth year student here. Brock, I know who you are. Everyone knows the Huebner. Yes baby. You got the question out of him. A lot of talent has emerged from The Daily Show with his correspondence, and I wonder what's going on with the Daily Show environment in general or its leadership in particular. Do you think it led to the growth and development of such talented actors and talk shows?

Hosts? Brock, when you're a men's facilitator, if I may... I mean, honestly, part of it is happenstance. We were lucky enough to be able to identify really talented people and have the pleasure and honor of having them come and work with us. And hopefully the environment was stimulating enough for them and collaborative enough so that they could express themselves to the best of their ability. And I think my feeling about those environments is just having clarity of vision but flexibility of process. So the idea is to know your intention. The only thing you can control is intention.

You can't control people's perception of it. You can't control what they do with it. But you can control through your own sense of moral foundation or barometer or whatever makes you mark what your intention is. And then you try to execute that intention in its best avatar, in your best self. And that's what we were trying to do on the show. And we were lucky to have access to the kind of talent that we had. So I don't know if there's something inherent in the atmosphere, in the same way that I felt like talking about political issues would make it more interesting, we were able to find artists who felt that way too.

And I think that created a certain energy for part of the process. Does the cameraman have any questions? Oh, no, that was just... Hello. I just wanted to go back to what you mentioned earlier about the media and how it has distorted incentives. Yes. And I was wondering how we could actually change those incentives to focus on clarity around a conflict like you said. A little far from the Fox Business model. Well, it's not... the only thing I would say is that it's not just the Fox Business model. I think it's the business model. Fox has found a way to incorporate its ideology into the business model, which I think is to have its cake and eat it too.

CNN has no other ideology than to narrate the news as it happens outside without knowing why. MSNBC would like the clarity of its ideology to be combined with making money, but so far that hasn't worked. But I think again that news is not just another product, the same way I look at healthcare, it's just not just another product that you put on your cable box. And I think the concerted effort that needs to be made is to remove it from that system, not necessarily to try to create a 24-hour news network that can be a powerful counterweight, a Fox News of veracity where it's not so dependent on daily demands. ratings and things like that, but it's still good television.

And it's still interesting. And I think it can be done. When you and I were kids there were three networks, three main networks. Everyone saw the same news and so on. Now that the media environment has become completely balkanized and people tend to look for media that affirms their views rather than necessarily reporting them. That's not healthy? I mean, how do you get people to listen to each other? Well, I think people in general... yeah, I mean, I don't know people who don't live that way normally. I don't think it's a common modern phenomenon that people tend to congregate with like-minded people.

I don't know if you ate lunch in high school, right? It's not like you were looking for in high school, today I'm going to sit with the stoner kids. Find out what they think about Pink Floyd. People tend to go with like-minded people. What I would say today about the media is that maybe you are in a bubble. But usually, little fragments of other people's bubbles make their way into yours. And that, as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing. But you need a bubble machine. You need a machine that makes good bubbles and is constantly blowing them out and popping other people's shit bubbles.

But I would suggest that while there is this kind of epistemic closure that you talk about because of the volume of material that is generated and the tenacity of the material that is generated, there is a lot of cross-pollination. And so people are much more aware that that is part of what globalization means. And that's part of what fuels the anger of globalization: there are a lot of people and a lot of places going... who just discovered that we're screwed and we didn't even know it. And now we do it. Again, all technology has the capacity to elevate and the capacity to denigrate.

And I say that when it comes to news, and again, this is an exercise of editorial authority. This is subjective. There is no objectivity here. It's subjective. But you know that the Internet has the ability to elevate the debate. He also has the ability to just... look, I read comment sections like everyone else. I just found out that because I have a gray beard I have cancer or AIDS. As if that were the comments section. What happened to Jon Stewart? He has cancer or AIDS. He has CASAIDS, cancer, AIDS. I don't know. As if that's exactly what it is.

That said, this is not unusual. What is the most important thing on the Internet? It's porn. The internet can enlighten you or you can just masturbate to it. As if that were... Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone. Watson, come quickly and get a towel. As if that's what it is. Everything a man does, everything we have can be used for good or evil. Atomic energy, you can cut it one way and light up the world. You can do it another way and blow up the world. That is the dilemma we face. So use your energy as much as you can to achieve the positive.

Hello. I'm Melissa. I am a second year in college. I know you talked a little bit earlier about how comedy is just comedy. It's just a satire. But if you... I don't... I probably should... I don't want to say it's just satire like it's a trifle. I'm really proud of it. I think it's an amazing way to express yourself. I meant that it cannot replace activism. So I'm not saying this like it's just a joke, folks. It's not. Satire is an expression of my true beliefs put through the prism; the reason it's not news is that the tools of satire are hyperbole, wordplay, and denigration, shit you can't get away with in the news, but its expression can have a similar basis.

So I apologize for that. Well, on that note, there were some critiques and articles about John Oliver and Trevor Noah's work in doing satire and talking about how they're basically doing the job of journalists to illuminate different topics. Do you think the comedy world is leaning more toward hybrid comedy journalism in some ways? Unfortunately, I see the world of journalism leaning more towards comedy. I feel like they are moving towards our box. No, I mean, I think part of... there's a certain way of... what we did at the Daily Show was we took kind of short content and tried to create a more essayistic version of that using principles of argument and Logic with comedy.

What that requires sometimes is a certainbalance between fundamental material and background. And without that background it wouldn't make sense... an essay doesn't make much sense without its premises and so on. So that's where that comes from. But I don't think people get tired of it: art always evolves in many different ways, but that particular form, comedy, usually requires a set of knowledge shared with its audience. So, in the days of big scandal sweeping the country, those jokes are easy because... when Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face, it was an easy show to write because everyone knew that Dick Cheney had shot a guy. guy in the face.

So you really didn't have to go through all that, in 1972 Congress passed the don't shoot your friends law. This is where... it was like I was right there. So comedy tries to demand the shortest distance between the brain and the gut. So when you have to complete that, it can tend to detract from it. So it makes it difficult. So to be able to do that, as with guys like Oliver, I really admire his ability to do that. But I don't think that's the new thing. Thank you very much for being here. My name is Mary McNicholas and I grew up watching her show every night.

But wait. You are an adult person. That would make me 80 years old. In fact, I had to watch recorded shows to see your first years on the air. When... I'm so sorry. I didn't come here to insult you. I promise. No. That doesn't do it at all. I know I'm old. But then you focused a lot more on pop culture. My question is when did that change occur? Was it a change because you saw the need for change to cover politics or was it more natural because you thought, hey, that's interesting. In the early years of the program it was more of a fight between the publisher and the network.

I think they were more of the mentality that people liked pop culture. And I was more of the mindset that we could create something slightly different that would still attract an audience. I think they felt we would be narrowing our economic focus. Therefore, these changes generally take time. But it was not like that. That's all it was. That fight had to be fought. Can I follow up? Are you happy you won that fight? Are you happy that this was your role and you became a political commentator? I'm glad I did it because I've been fired many times from many places.

And if I hadn't... if the ratings hadn't gone up, I would have been fired. Then I'm glad. Thank you. Hello. I'm sara. I am a first year at university. And we're pretty similar in the fact that we're both Jews from Lawrenceville, New Jersey. Are you really from Lawrenceville? Yes. Hey, what are you doing there? I don't know. There is a small plaque in the hallway outside the high school auditorium that says Jon Leibowitz. Yes Yes. What is that for? Smoking marijuana? What did I buy it for? He says media along with people who were famous for nothing.

I have a plaque at Lawrence High School. Yeah. Is it still some kind of shit hole? Yes. Very nice, very nice. Very beautiful place. Related to that, since you're like the only famous person in our town, how do you think the shitshow that is New Jersey politics and just the state itself has affected your work? Interesting. Surely the fact that New Jersey has a comical level of corruption has had an effect. But to be honest, I wasn't... By the way, welcome to Illinois. Well yes, exactly. Well, in Illinois I think you have a better chance of going to prison;

If you drop out of high school, you are less likely to go to prison than if you become governor. Alright. I honestly think Watergate and Vietnam were the crucibles that shaped my thinking much more than New Jersey, which is a whole other set of problems. Hello. So my name is Marcos. I'm a big fan of the show and I'm actually very lucky because I'm interning at the Daily Show this summer. Hey, congratulations. Thank you. That will be good. So this is more of a career tip... You know what? Can I say this? Yes. Practice washing fruit.

I'll do my best. I just want to make sure you know the job. So my question is how do you keep your sanity in the midst of the 24-hour news network onslaught against your work? Well, I think... were you here the whole time? Dont do it. It's very similar to... remember the movie The Green Mile? Wherever you want... people get lost in it. And I think you start to think it's real life. And you have to understand that when you look at it, it's designed for a reason. And the reason is to increase urgency and anxiety so that you don't turn your back on it.

And you can start to think that that is real. But is not. So keep that in mind. And Xanax. Forward. So Senate Republicans have done a pretty effective job of not confirming Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court. And now that the media has focused its attention on November, do you think we should wait until the next president chooses the judge? Do you think that argument is valid now that the elections are six months away? And what is your prediction on who will fill the position? First of all, don't threaten me with those boxing gloves on your arm.

I know what's happening. I swear to God I was hit by a truck on Friday. So I'm grateful to be... Wait. You were hit by a truck. Yes. Let me say this. Merritt Garland's question is interesting, but the story of the truck is fucking phenomenal. How did you get hit by a truck? Let's say Hyde Park had some reckless drivers. Correct. It was the driver. In Hyde Park. And there's no way you did drugs and rode a unicycle. Alright. Here is the question. So I have no idea. And as far as I'm concerned, they're getting screwed.

Because the vote that is not there is one of the only reliable conservative votes. So any case that comes up over the next year that was going to be a 5-4 decision for the Conservatives is now moot. So basically, they're going to spend a year losing pretty much any case they had a chance at. So I don't know what to tell you. Answer one more question. Yes. Yes. To me? Yes sir. Oh great. Brothers with beards. Thank you. It's a new one I'm trying. I wanted to ask you about the last interview on your show, which I think was with Louis C.K.

Yeah. From my memory, I think that was after some of the rumors about Louis CK allegedly harassing comedians... Wow. --had started to leave. They were just things that were circulating on the Internet. Hope for? I think this was after Jen Kirkman, for example, talked about his knowledge of Louis CK's alleged harassment of comedians. At least people interpreted it that way. I think there was an article on Gawker about it. Good. And I just want to know... I mean, if this is the first time you're hearing about this, maybe I already got my answer that there really wasn't a discussion about this on the show.

But... So wait, wait. I am a bit lost. Then the Internet said that Louis harassed women. First there was a Gawker article and then there were a couple of tweets from people. And I know all this about the Internet. That's pretty authoritative. I know that's how... You know who you're talking to, right? No, I totally understand. It is true that Internet rumors are not court cases or anything like that. I just want to know if there was any kind of discussion about that on the show. If that was something on your radar. No. I didn't see the tweets.

No. Or Jen Kirkman's podcast about this. No. And I apologize. I'm honestly not that connected to that world. So I apologize. I do not know what you're talking about. But... No, and part of... I really can't... I don't know what to say. Definitely not. And I can change that. And I think a good point is that a lot of people at the time didn't know what that was. And again, the Internet isn't safe or anything, but there have been comedians who have taken strong stances on Bill Cosby without such secure knowledge, from Bill Maher to Hannibal Buress.

But I wonder if you could talk about the role of comedians in relation to other comedians. But as you pointed out, the Bill Cosby case is actually a legal case. Is now. But it wasn't like that when Bill Maher and Hannibal Buress talked about it. Maybe if you could talk about the role of comedians in... I mean, all I can tell you is that I've worked with Louis for 30 years. And he is a wonderful man and person. And I've never heard anything about this. And we all know that Bill Cosby was a jerk for a long time.

So I don't know what to tell you. But I didn't know anything about the sexual assault. But you're right, it's important... Not sexual assault, but harassment in general. If I do not do it. I appreciate your question. Thank you. Thank you. And let's say thank you to Jon Stewart.