Keep Calm & Get What You Want with FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss | Wide Open with Tony Gonzalez

Hey guys,

what

's up? Welcome back to another episode of Open the Podcast. I'm your host Tony González and today's guests. I had met them before Chris Vos, the

hostage

negotiator

, writer of the book. Never split the difference. Trade as if your life depends on it. A friend of mine who lives in San Francisco is very tech savvy and he calls me one day and he knows I like to read and he says, hey, I have this book, but you can't tell anyone about this book, it's kind of a secret. . gun is kind of a secret in secret and you know it will help you with your relationships it will help you with business and he mentioned your book and I understood it, it came out, I bought the book, I read it, amazing book, thank you, but I think it could be Too good, Chris, because people say you don't

want

to spread this book because you don't

want

people to know the tactics that are used when it comes to negotiations, which is a secret weapon, but everyone knows that.

I want to talk about you as we always do

open

ly. I think everyone's story of how they came up tells why they are who they are now in life and we were talking before the show started, that you're from Iowa, little guy. small town town Iowa you have four brothers and sisters three sisters four of us total uh four of us total one older two younger sisters and growing up like a big family, I mean yeah, so the negotiation you were always a good

negotiator

, right? Is this something you learned since childhood? No I dont think so.

I think I think

what

I learned that helped me in a negotiation was really resolved. I have to figure things out like my dad is a businessman and he just seems calculated. find out what their attitude was towards their own business you meet a small business owner you have a problem you have to figure out how to solve it you have to do it so we'll solve it attitude you know can do attitude and then at some point I really like to be proactive, ya You know, face problems. A lot of things in the book are actually about dealing with emotional problems before they happen, which is a crazy idea. but he's very proactive so you know, I think he was

open

to learning by working hard and being proactive.

Did you go to school for this kind of thing? I mean, what did you like when you were a kid? Yeah, you know, I wanted to be a police officer. I decided I wanted to work in law enforcement when I was 16, a friend of mine and we both watched the same movie at the same time, Super Cops, about a pair of New York City cops who were wildly creative. I didn't realize it at the time. At the time, but they were very good at ignoring what management wanted them to do and the community loved them. They did a lot of good, a lot of good.

They were creative and the community loved them. That surprised us both. they ended up becoming cops, the other guy I wasn't really cut out for because you know it can be hard, uh-huh, you know you see more things and if you don't, if you're not built to handle that and you know it's not for you, but that was what led me in the direction of law enforcement and you went into law enforcement right when you got out of school and graduated from college? I went to State University and got a business degree because while I was in school.

I realized that I might change my mind, so I thought about getting a degree that was flexible, but you know, I fell on the path to becoming a police officer and then I think you know, a business degree, everything has to function as even in the government. You have to understand business concepts, so I think you know that helped me throughout my life, uh-huh, so when you decided to become a police officer, who was there someone influential in your life? That kind of mentor you could bounce off of. Ideas got you through this or was it yeah, figure it out, yeah, you know, I just like the idea of ​​being really creative and doing something that you know might sound like a cliché, but I was doing it well. to do good aha I want to have a good time at the same time No, so no one was helping you, right, man, it wasn't like that, there was no influence of the law on that, oh, I love it, yeah, look, that's it that this show has that I Love because people are always like you have to get a mentor, you have to get someone to look up to and it's not like that for everyone.

I mean, you can still have a successful life if you don't have anyone to let you out. just you don't really need hand holding okay here's my take on the mentor trick because I understand I get a lot of questions about mentoring you know so there's a phrase and the point is to get unofficial mentors hmmm -hmm, so there's a quote I really like, I never take advice from anyone you wouldn't trade places with, because I was introduced to an FBI agent in Kansas City. I said I want to be an FBI agent while I was a cop there.

What should I? I do and he gave me some advice. Now, what happens when you follow the advice of someone like that? They become your own official mentors and take care of you mm-hmm and are usually in a position to take care of this guy. agent Kansas City and he says okay so I'll tell you what to do and I'm usually on the interview panels but since I've given you advice I probably won't be on your panel and he laid out some really basic things for me something It's stupid I really liked being a police officer at that time I didn't read newspapers all I wanted to do was fight crime aha you know and me and I were completely dedicated to it but in the process I'm not reading the newspaper he says you know what We're going to want you to be aware of current events, he says you read the newspaper and I said no, he said, well, you get on the panel.

I will ask you if you are not reading the newspaper, we will think that you are not aware of current events. He says. Turns out the guys on my panel are there to hold me accountable. Did I hear what he said? I did it? was it or I just did it, I wasted his advice. I've been reading the newspaper. Those people will almost always be in a position to verify whether or not you followed the advice in the same way I became a

hostage

negotiator. The person in charge What do I do? I did it. The good thing about following that advice.

Nobody follows that advice unless you are successful. You know, if you're asking about mentors, you probably had mentors. And I bet money you listen. for him, yeah, yeah, that's the hard part and you did what you were told to do when I went back to the woman who was actually critical and I became a hostage negotiator. I put the store in the book. I was able to tell the story without mentioning his name. and I once had permission to use his name. I said, I said Amy. I'm putting this up whether you like it or not.

You did something really amazing for me. I just need to put your name because I like to give credit and her. I said, I told a thousand people to do what I told you to do and of those thousand two they did it, yeah, long story, take the advice of people you should trade places with or you would, and do it, yeah, you know , these guys actually do it. He has read the newspaper, he has read the damn newspaper, yes, because then, if I do that interview and I haven't read the newspaper, he discards me. I get the lowest scores I could have gotten, yes, but since I did, I was actually embarrassed by the scores I got on the interview panel, so when that happens, even though you talk about listening, I think it's HUGE because I think the recipe for success is all around us, yes, I mean, you can go to a book like I like to read books and that's where I get a lot of my mentoring, but also...

I'll talk to someone like you for these interviews that I do here every week. I can talk to someone who has done extraordinary things. I think it's kind of a waste of time if I sit here and don't apply what someone's telling me, especially if they've been there, so I love that advice, but you're a cop for the first three years, three years and then you say, hey, it's time to level up and I want to be an FBI agent now and exactly something falls from the sky so my dad pays for the college degree mm-hmm and I'll get a job that requires a high school diploma now that that's not It's not a bad job being a police officer is a great job but if I sent my son to college and then he didn't use that degree I want my money back so he can finally come to terms with the fact that I'm going to stay in has a guy you know as a Secret Service agent right now.

I know, I know, I don't know one federal law enforcement agency from another, you know, they call it the federal alphabet, not the DEA from the FBI. from the CIA out of nowhere, yeah, so I talked to the Secret Service guy because my dad thinks it's cool, so you know, using your college degree, getting each other requires one and the Secret Service guy says that I traveled all over the world with the Secret Service now, at that time. I think you know I grew up in Iowa. I think I had probably seen Canada from a distance.

I mean traveling around the world. Someone is going to pay my bills to travel around the world. I will do that. Yes. The Secret Service wasn't hiring the The FBI gave me a big push. I thought you know, I don't know what difference it makes and I applied for the office and I got in, yeah, so you know the way again, yeah, you don't know. I know you don't know what can happen in the past. I know yes, that's fun too, at least I like it. Do you set your goals, but at the same time you never know what could happen?

Yes, sure, I know you don't want to be a male model and a soccer player. Okay, I grew up in Long Beach there, so yeah, you're in the FBI now, and outside of that, through hostage negotiation, how did that come about? because you go to the FBI and I don't know about Mattamy, they are from the FBI. I thought it was, you know from what I see in the movies, but there's a whole hostage negotiation section, well, you know, there's several sections and actually, originally I was on a SWAT team, okay, I wanted to be SWAT, but one thing I thought about for most of my life was crushing, you know, I'm medium sized, get it right, you know what it really is. a really bad size because the little ones want to kick your ass and the big ones imagine that you have a fight because you are a medium size, so you have to carry everyone.

It's a bad size, so I studied the brands. I started a martial study. arts in college I ended up breaking my knee put the sky back together get on a SWAT team every field division has a SWAT team and a negotiation team okay and they do it as an extra duty and all the field divisions and then there's always it's a town that runs out of everything in Quantico, you know, the mystical Quantico that appears on all the TV shows Mystikal Quantico Quantico Virginia, oh, just that, you know, I mean this, it's actually one of the places specials of a planet because people should go there and change their lives like you, you walk, you walk in the door, just another person on the street, you walk through the Academy, you walk out like an FBI agent, that's it, that's a transformation , so, I'm on, I'm on a SWAT team.

In Pittsburgh they transfer me to New York. I decide that the office's terrorist SWAT team is a hostage rescue team. They are based in Quantico. They are top-level national anti-terrorist assets. They are the equivalent of seals, which would make seals angry to hear it. that, but it's actually the truth. I tried HRT. I really enjoy my name. I'm going to a doctor in New York to get it fixed. He puts Humpty Dumpty back together mm-hmm, but as you know, you can only. I hurt my joints so many times so I decided it was okay, so I don't know how many more knee surgeries I had, but it's like a cat you're going to run out of lives.

Yeah, I decide to become a hostage negotiator because responding with SWAT teams uh-huh I could talk I could talk to people how difficult that could be I mean I literally remember thinking I could talk to terrorists how difficult that could be and initially I was rejected by the woman I was telling you about and she gives me advice. I follow it. I join the team. I'll tell you about your first real deal where they say I, Chris, you're up today and then how do they pick you and what was your first? experience like this is a direct initiative.

I am sitting in the FBI office in New York and a friend of mine arrives. I'm getting ready to do an interview and he has Charlie Beaudoin, a good friend today. This is a bank robber in Brooklyn with hostages, let's take the initiative now we are not called to go, we go and at that moment I'm actually taking care of a bad right knee, Charlie is taking care of a bad left knee, we go up, we approach the inside perimeter , we were rescued. the car we're crawling up to the command post, you know, between the two of us it was like a three-legged race, you know, four legs, but just until morning and we got in there.

The FBI, the NYPD get the teams together and you know, me. I just finished my training, I have a great team leader, the police commander says okay, we are going to integrate the teams because in a bank robbery it will be the FBI and the NYPD and we all knew each other, we have been training together and Lieut. Point to one of the PD guys, this one will be the first to leave. points forThey interpreted it exactly the way. They wanted him, you know Sam Jackson's character, and that's a phenomenal right, the best thing is the way he talks and I've been saying this for years.

I didn't know what I meant. Who is, uh, who is the person in your life that beats you in negotiation? Wow, yeah, look, I don't look at winning, losing, oh yeah, I look at someone who educated me, you think he educated me. I'm educated by a lot of people at different points in time, like my old boss, Gary Nestor, who ran the unit, he has a book called Making Time, I kind of learned a lot from that guy, even after he retired, from time to time. I called him on the phone. Say yes, just your words coming out of my mouth again like you know he taught us and I said it a thousand times before I understood what it meant, we don't guarantee success, we guarantee the best chance of success, which we now say. people we train to a business like I'm not going to guarantee that they're going to make the deal.

I'm going to give them the best opportunity to make the deal and make the best deal. That doesn't mean they're going to do it, yeah, we'll give you the best chance, we guarantee it, and you know Gary taught me a lot and you know that fine line because the first time I worked the case was they killed someone. I remember saying that I've been saying for years that we don't guarantee success, it's just the best chance of success. I mean, by definition, someone is going to die mm-hmm and when you know, when that train hit me, which is very selfish of me to say that it hit me. because it wasn't a member of my family again fault yes, you know, someone was trying to help but it wasn't my blood.

I realized I had been preparing for that for a few years mm-hmm, how do you recover like that? you leave it, you get up and when I got up I was determined that we had to improve and, consequently, when I found out what he used to do, I used to go after those who had been in sieges where they killed people who wouldn't give up just because. someone dies, you say to yourself: I have to raise the level of my game mmm, it wasn't enough last time, yeah, and you want people to want to raise the level of the game, yeah, it's going to be a difficult side of what. .. but obviously it's a baseball bat, a headbutt, yeah, you know, you get up, you're done, yeah, last question, what is one area of ​​your life that you would like to improve in the sense that you are open to learning more? about the organization wow?

I am a lover of spontaneity, which by definition is disorganized, yes, an adventure like my motorcycle, if I get on a bike, I have no idea where we are going, none, I will get on the motorcycle, I will find out, but in business I lead people. My team is crazy because I want to add everything to them and they want to know where we are going or how we will get there, so getting better at organized activity is my struggle hmm Chris, thanks for being so open buddy. I appreciate it