In Gaza now, it’s worse than ethnic cleansing | Centre Stage

I think it's

worse

than

ethnic

censorship. This is

ethnic

censorship that has turned into genocide. From my perspective, what is happening now in Gaza is much

worse

than what happened in 1948. At center

stage

is Elan Pape, an Israeli historian and university professor. exiter Pape is known for his outspoken views on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, which draws both praise and criticism. He is the author of several books, including The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, in which he challenges the traditional Israeli narrative about the establishment of Israel in 1948 in today's Pape episode. discusses the dangers of zist ideology and its impact on Israel and Palestine the historical context of October 7 and his vision for a one-state solution Professor Elan Pape thank you very much for speaking to Center Stage it is a pleasure to be on the program program thank you for inviting me before you left Israel for the UK in 2006 you were condemned in the Knesset you were attacked you were boycotted at the university where you worked I understand that you also received death threats not as a result of speaking out in support of the Palestinians, but as a Israeli Jew who lived in Israel, whose parents emigrated from Europe to Israel, where does this conviction to speak come from?

It's actually a journey, it doesn't happen in a day, you don't have an epiphany moment. so to speak, suddenly you are willing to risk your association with your own Society in many ways, you have to deprogram yourself from an indoctrination that you were exposed to from a very early age, in my case I think what really helped was, first of all , the fact that I love history uh and I always knew from a very early age that I would like to be a historian and I was also very interested in the history of the place that I was born in and because I was looking at the modern. history of Hia and then Palestine I was exposed to, let's say, historical events that challenged the indoctrination that I was exposed to, but I think what really helped was the fact that it was just a coincidence that I decided to continue my studies outside of Israel in Great Britain.

Britain at Oxford University and also by chance I had an Arab supervisor, the late, great Albert Hurani, and through him I met Palestinians on a different basis than I would have met them in Israel, so this intimacy. Being out of the country with Palestinian colleagues and friends working in the most important year in the history of modern Palestine, 1948, created some confusion in my mind about who I am, history, etc., and little by little I began to think If you want to get out of the Zionist tribe and um became quite a critical voice against it, but I mean a lot of people would be interested to know that you actually served in the Israeli army in the 1973 war, so no.

There was a turning point. incident that shaped his narrative today. I must say that I had a very conventional Israeli upbringing, which included going to the army because you have to serve in the army and I was in the 1973 war. I was in the Golan Heights, in the war between Syria and Israel. I saw things there that I think Later they also helped shape my ideas, but I think I was too young and too immersed in the Israeli mentality to be affected by the war itself, I think it reached a little. then it came a little later and when I should also say I want to say that I became a mature academic through a very important dramatic moment: the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, which clearly for me was not at least a war of choice but an invasion, the first intifada.

When you had the First Palestinian Uprising, seeing Palestinians fighting for freedom and independence also influences you, there is a moment when you stand up and say that you are at peace with yourself, that you agree with what you think you are willing to do. to pay the price. You don't look back because you know too much and from then on you commit to the cause to continue in what you believe. It's very difficult to do these days. I mean, how do you maintain your moral compass? How you stand? to such views when Israeli society itself is a Zionist society as you describe it and many and also the successive Israeli governments that come to power are very right and are quite Zionist governments, particularly after the events of October 7, How do you keep that moral compass well?

I think what helps me is that I already understood that this was going to happen. When I wrote in the mid-1990s, when everyone was mesmerized by the Oslo Accord, I was writing very pessimistic articles, everyone was writing hopeful articles that Oso will bring peace between Israel and the Palestinians, and I was writing something very different. I said: you don't understand Israeli society, you don't understand the Israeli education system. I could see what kind of young Israelis are being educated. I could imagine what Israel would look like in 10, 15 or 20 years from where we are now because I understood that a new generation of Israelis was much more right-wing, much more extreme, much more Zionist, much more racist, being educated in the system school, so I was ready. unfortunately for the event, so it didn't, I wasn't shaken, but let me ask you this, I mean, you're a historian as a historian, what would you say is the most important historical context that people need to know today? uh when it comes to Israel and Palestine as the Gaza war continues, yes I think there is more of a historical context, the first and most important is probably the events of 1948, you can't understand what happened on October 7th if you dont do it.

Don't go back to 1948 if you don't understand how Gaza, the Gaza Strip, was created, because most people don't know that before 1948 there was no entity called the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip is an Israeli invention in 1948 until 1948. Gaza was a small, very cosmopolitical town because it was on the Viam Maris between Alexandria and Alexandretta in Turkey, many people passed through it, there were Jewish, Christian and Muslim communities living there in coexistence and peace and Then came the nakba, the Israeli catastrophe that I called In my book, ethnic

cleansing

, what happened was that Israel was able, when it committed ethnic

cleansing

, to expel the Palestinians to Lebanon, to Syria, to Jordan, but Egypt could not. allowed Israel to expel the Palestinians to Egypt, so Israel had the in the south, so they said okay.

We will surrender. They decided not to occupy Gaza. They decided to create this rectangle as a huge refugee camp in order to expel the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from central and southern Palestine that Egypt did not want to receive and push away. to 2% of historic Palestine and close it as a border and let the Egyptians take military rule over that area, so from the first moment in 1948 the strip was a huge refugee camp under pressure and unbearable conditions already in 48, of course. Things got even worse after Israel occupied it in 1967 and even worse since 2007, when the siege of Gaza began and then the 17-year siege that included four bombings of Gaza, which is probably what most young people in Daa you know, since many of them are in TW in the early 20s, the only reality they know is the reality of Siege and four bombings from air, land and sea, from 2007 until today, October 7, what came out is this whole reaction both to The Siege, but also to the fact that many people in Gaza were refugees who were pushed into this strip since 1948 and were under military occupation.

You wrote that book, the ethnic cleansing of GF Palestine, about what happened in 1948 and you said that it was noticed by the world at the time but not condemned is history repeating itself now in regards not only to what we are seeing happen But in your opinion there is ethnic cleansing going on in Gaza right now and some world governments are complicit in it. First of all, I think ethnic cleansing is worth it. I think what we see now in Gaza is genocide and I don't think what happened in '48 was genocide. Ethnic cleansing is bad enough.

I mean, don't get me wrong. and ethnic cleansing is an operation that is often accompanied by massacres, but this is not ethnic, it is ethnic cleansing that has turned into genocide, so, from my perspective, what is happening now in Gaza is much worse than what What happened in 1948, that is the first point and the second. I think you're right. I believe that the same international indifference that allowed the Israelis to complete ethnic cleansing in 1948 is also activated today and is even less forgivable today than in '48 because in '48 there was no television. there is no internet unlike today where genocide is taking place in front of our eyes we know we know every day what is happening what is happening and the governments of the west of the global north are fully aware of what is happening and they refuse to force Israel, uh. accept the ceasefire, it is incredible that the US administration would willingly and knowingly give Israel carte blanche to continue the genocide for more than 3 months.

What we see now is contextualizing and historicizing what is happening and also triggers accusations. of antisemitism, to what extent do you think this is part of the colonial nature of Zionism? Sett colonialism is a phenomenon of Europeans who in many cases became refugees in Europe or marginalized because they were not welcome in Europe for religious and economic reasons. reasons cultural reasons and they felt that Europe was unsafe or that Europe didn't want them so they looked for a new Europe outside of Europe and very often they chose places where other people already lived and uh and what happened when they understood that there is a native indigenous population in the new places, they were willing to try to eliminate that population either through genocide or through ethnic cleansing, so we generally say that they act according to a logic of eliminating the natives and Zionism is not a different case.

Europeans did not feel welcome in Europe, but they still wanted to create a Europe. They chose Palestine because of the religious connection between Judaism and, through the Bible, with the land of Palestine. With the help of, like all SLE colonial movements, they got help. of a British Empire, but they were always working on this logic that I mentioned, the logic of the removal of the natives, but you know, 48 became an opportunity, they didn't complete the removal, they expelled half the population of Palestine and half of the population of Palestine remained. in historical Palestine they also did not take into account that those who were expelled would go on and create a Liberation movement and not give up their right to return etc., so I think what we have here, in very simple terms, is a project of having as much land as possible with as few native indigenous people as possible.

Gaza is a problem. Gaza has always been a problem for Israel. The West Bank was Judaized and colonized. And now there are over 700,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank, so Israel feels that even if there is a Palestinian problem in the West Bank because there is such a large Jewish presence that they have it under control Gaza never managed to persuade enough Jewish settlers to bring in just 3,000 They finally entered Ariel Chon said: "Let's take them." They realized that they are more of a problem than helping us and decided to create this huge prison and, um, Gaza still became a problem.

I mean, after they created the big prison in 2007, Hamas continued their resistance, so they didn't solve the problem to the extent that they did. concerned, you are a supporter of the one state solution, that's right, tell us how this would work in your mind, yes, I mean, based on what you are saying and these decisions that the Israeli governments are making, it seems to be a big challenge. absolutely what it really means is that you cannot have a one state solution as long as Zionism is the most important the hegemonic ideology in Palestine there is no possibility of a one state solution there is no possibility of any solution also the two solution states is not a solution as long as Israel is a state of Zion, so obviously when we talk about a single state as a vision for the future we understand that it has to go through the de-Zionization of Israel or decolonization if what is wanted is the disintegration of historical Palestine.

It is happening, yes, but what we can see very clearly are processes by which this project is not working, not only because of the Palestinian resistance but because it has other organic problems, for example, this whole idea of ​​​​creating a State on the basis of religion never worked in In any country in the world, the idea that you can create a state of Jews just because everyone believes in the same religion is not a basis for nationalism and now we can see the struggle within the Jewish Society between two sides: the secular Jews and the Jews.

Religious Jews and they find it very difficult to find common ground, so first of all, I think this is disintegrating from within. I think there is an implosion of society from within. Second, the state is so dependent on the United States that by the time there is a scenario in which the United States, for whatever reason, not necessarily for Palestinian reasons, is unable or unwilling to provide financial and military aid to Israel. . Hasless ability to maintain its economy or its military capacity. So I think I have it much clearer. about the disintegration of the zanis project, I really think we are starting to see the end of this look, let me ask you this, but would it be anti-Semitic then to defend the right of Palestinian friends to return, but not that of the Jews?

Don't be anti-Semitic. I think there is something. I'll explain it to you. I think the right of Palestinians to return to their homeland because they were expelled is very much based on international law. There is a clear United Nations resolution 194 of December 11, 1948 that declares that the right of Palestinians to return is sacred and internationally legal, so I believe it is a right that cannot be denied. It is not a political question. It is the individual right of a refugee to return home. The immigration of Jews to Israel is not a regular immigration law of a state, um it articulates an unreasonable idea that any Jewish baby born anywhere in the world is automatically and potentially an Israeli citizen.

You cannot turn every Jew in the world into a potential citizen of the future, a state, no, a state would have to distinguish between the right of refugees to return and agree with all the people who live there on its immigration policy, for which would totally separate the rights of Palestinian refugees. return, which is to correct a historical injustice, then the future of the people who would like, if they would like, to come to what would hopefully become a democratic state in all of Palestine if they want to go there as Jews, as Christians, etc., but what does it take, professor, for this idea of ​​Zionism to disintegrate in Israel so that the people of Israel begin to unlearn it because you talk about Jews who are outside of the United States outside of Israel, forgive me or of people outside Israel who are now unlearning Zionism, but the real problem is absolutely within Israel itself, if Israel begins to exist as a Zionist State and is replaced by a democratic State.

I predict that many Jews, especially with European backgrounds, with European passports and with options to live abroad, would leave. that happened to the white community in South Africa. I hope not, but I think some of them would leave. There is no doubt that the fact that this is a possible scenario is not a good enough reason to stop injustice in Palestine, so I think that you have to be honest with people, you know that you cannot describe a rosy decolonization, You know, telling people, oh, don't worry, you just wake up tomorrow morning and the Palestinians will suddenly be equal citizens, the refugees are coming back and you're not.

You won't even feel it Your life will continue as it is No, it won't because you have a lot of unfair privileges that you are going to lose You will feel quite insecure at first because now someone else is taking control, but this is inevitable and necessary, it also means that you don't We must expect a change from within Israel, since as a precondition for the liberation of Palestine, this will happen even though the majority of Israeli Jews would be against it, speaking of acceptance, that is, when when we talk about this solution of a single state so far is limited, if I may say so and correct me if I'm wrong, to a kind of intellectual circles for um historians like you, I refer to one of the recent surveys that I was reading. suggests that in 2023 support for the one-state solution stands at approximately 23% among Palestinians and 20% among Jews and there are also governments that are now trying to revitalize this idea of ​​a two-state solution, so How can this idea for a one-state solution gain momentum?

Do you think it will gain momentum in the future? First of all, yeah, so I think this is changing rapidly. What is important is the change in the position of Palestinians in the West Bank or under Palestinian rule. authorities that are officially under a leadership that talks only about the two-state solution, the number of people who are in favor of the one-state solution is growing exponentially every day, every day. I know this because I am a member of a movement called A Campaign for a Democratic State, and we are working in the West Bank, as well as in Gaza and within Israel, and the numbers are constantly increasing, especially among the younger generation, and we must remember that The Palestinian Society is one of the youngest in the world. 50% of Palestinians, wherever they are, are under 18 years old.

If you do a poll among young Palestinians, I guess I don't know, I don't have the numbers, but I guess an overwhelming majority would be in favor of a one-state solution. I can see it because young people use the internet more than the older generation and are less factionalized, so I think we're definitely headed there. I am totally sure of it. I do not know exactly. when, but in the medium-term future, I think the stated Palestinian vision, even the institutionalized vision, would move towards a one-state solution. What about acceptance among Israeli Jews? They do not accept the two-state solution and do not expect a one-state solution.

I really think your position is not that relevant because as long as most Israeli Jews are Zionists and most of them are Zionists, they do not believe in any solution that can begin to address the injustices that Zionism inflicted. about the Palestinians that's why I think the most important strategy that the Palestinians have adopted in recent years is the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment and sanction, the logic of BDS that was copied from South Africa, the logic of BDS I don't think the occupier's society is going to change from within, so they believe that boycott, divestment and sanctions would force it to change, so I think what matters is whether we have effective tools to force the Israelis to change.

Are there effective tools to force Israelis to change? change between the type of political structures on both sides, as well as governments around the world, we have to believe that there is otherwise we have no hope for the future if we do not believe that we have a chance to influence the people who make policies in any country, then there is very little hope for humanity. I think young people around the world believe they have the opportunity to change green policies. Young African Americans believe they have a chance to make American society more Egalitarian and young Palestinians believe they have the power to liberate Palestine, so I think yes, we have a chance, we have the tools, if we haven't already , it means that either we are using the wrong tools or we are not using the right tools. tools correctly, but I think that if this energy that the Young Generation of Palestinians has were translated into organization, that is, we need to see a new PLO, the new PLO has to include Hamas and Jihad in other factions, there cannot be four five Palestinian National Liberation. movements will never succeed if they continue like this they need an organization like they used to have a democratic one that represents all the diversified positions of the Palestinians and to agree on what they can agree on, this can change the policies of the Palestinian leadership of the Arabs. leadership and world leadership yes, I believe there is a way to do it, but there are certain conditions that must be met for these processes to become positive because the destruction I believe of Israel from within will happen anyway.

The problem is that if there is no Palestinian, no proper Palestinian organization to take charge of what you create, what you get instead is chaos, and chaos can go on for 20 or 30 years, so the transitions They have to be quick, long transition periods generally destroy the achievements of Liberation. and we have seen decolonization in many African countries, for example, so we hope that Palestine will go through a different path in the future. Professor Elam Pape, it is a real pleasure to speak with you, thank you very much, thank you very much.