Heavyweight History with Emanuel Steward (Boxing Documentary)

On March 30, 2010 I was fortunate to have the privilege and honor of interviewing the late, great Boxing Hall of Fame trainer, Emanuel Steward. With the recent 10th anniversary of this interview, I thought it was an appropriate time to try to transform this into a historical

boxing

documentary

. The audio of this interview has been completely remastered for this video. So without further ado, I hope you all enjoy The Heavyweight Story with Emanuel Steward. This is the Rummy corner. Many Mike Tyson fans tend to believe that he was unbeatable during his prime and many maintain that he would never have lost a fight if Cus D'Amato had not passed away and some even argue that Tyson was ruined when he split up with Kevin.

Rooney. . On the other hand, many of his detractors say he is overrated because he presided over a weak division. In your opinion, Emanuel, what is the truth about Mike Tyson and his legacy? Well, I think there's definitely a legacy to start with. I think Mike Tyson, after Muhammad Ali, has had more impact on

boxing

(particularly at

heavyweight

) than any other fighter, I would say, in the last twenty years. Tyson came up with wearing all black clothes and no socks, and that affected a lot of boxers, actually in all weight divisions, where traditionally everyone wore white clothes because that's what Ray Robinsons and Muhammad Ali wore.

It just had so much impact to the point that sometimes I trained guys who were 6'3"-6'4" and they started out, they were trying to do the Mike Tyson move, bob and weave. . So he's definitely had a strong impact on boxing, stronger than any other

heavyweight

, other than Ali, I think, in the last twenty years. I think as a fighter he came at the right time with a lot of guys who were really intimidated (I hate to say it, a lot of them, by him) because most heavyweights have big bodies but very small hearts and that's why Strong-minded guys like him, Larry Holmes, George Foreman...they dominated the division because they are strong-minded, strong-willed individuals.

But I thought Mike came in at the right time with the speed, the intensity, and he made up for his lack of size by incorporating speed, and that's what's always effective, but when he fought bigger guys who were like 6'4 ”. guys or 6’3 ½” who weren’t afraid of him, he had problems. So I still have to respect him for what he did when he was a small man, only 5'10 ½”. It's really phenomenal. I think he still had his limitations. When he fought guys like James “Quick” Tillis, my fighter Tony Tucker, I think even “Bonecrusher” (Smith), these big guys who weren't scared or intimidated by him, were effective because he was still a small heavyweight. , but all he could do is do what he did.

He knocked people out, but he did it in such a vicious and cruel way, and the way he came out with that attitude of destroying and destroying, was something that made people prosper. I know it myself, he was up on a Friday night having a good time and I said, "Well, I have to go, go home and watch Mike Tyson on HBO." It must have been around '88 or '89, and I know the HBO fights were on Friday nights and the guy asked me and said, "Well, who is Mike Tyson fighting?" I said, "I don't know, I don't even care," because that's how exciting you must be with Mike.

He was going to knock someone out with his head up in some cruel way, but he brought out that intensity and those animal instincts that I don't think I've ever seen any fighter in my life be able to do. It was just exciting to watch and totally transformed the image of boxing, as far as I'm concerned, in the heavyweight division to the point that no one after him has captivated and had that impact on the audience and other fans in the same way. that Mike Tyson has. But as a great fighter? Eh, he maybe he wouldn't have stood up to some of the bigger guys because he was still a small heavyweight and when he fought guys like Lennox Lewis and then the Klitschkos and them, he may have had problems, but he did what that was asked of him. of him at the time: he knocked out everyone who was put in front of him and, therefore, I must say that he must definitely be considered a great fighter.

He should be in the Hall of Fame for the tremendous impact he had on boxing. Now, Emanuel, you trained Lennox Lewis and, as I'm sure you know, many fans criticized him when he reigned as champion; However, since his retirement, many fans seem to have developed a deeper appreciation for Lennox and many now view him as the last great heavyweight champion. You had the unique perspective of working with Lennox. Exactly how good was he? Lennox was good enough to have been a problem with any heavyweight in

history

. You still have size and usually the biggest disadvantage of big fighters, I always say when they get over 6'4", is that they lose coordination and that's why the shorter fighters were always able to neutralize that size advantage because they were much faster and better coordinated.

But Lennox became a fairly well-coordinated fighter. Good left jab from him, he had a very good variety of punches; he was pretty decent with his left hook, he developed a good right hook and, as we all know, he always had a very good, strong right hand, and Lennox could be very good. physical when he wanted. That was the only thing that made it a little different. Maybe not like Muhammad Ali running around the ring and a lot of times he fought a little technically but still, even with me and the rest of the camp, we didn't know what he would do sometimes.

Sometimes he would go out and be overly aggressive and knock out guys like Michael Grant, (Francois) Botha and even (Andrew) Golota, and then sometimes he would fight a very safe, technical fight like he did with David Tua, and then there are the fights in which he would come to life in the first round with Mike Tyson. He said I'm going to make Mike respect me, and he came out and went toe to toe with Mike in the first round instead of fighting a technical fight and once he got Mike's respect, he calmed down and worked his boxing plan, but Lennox had a good variety of punches.

He could do it with anything and if he had to be in a tough fight and he had to dig deep to get out and get it out, then he did it, and I remember him doing it with Frank Bruno. I remember going back to the Olympics in '84, not '88, when he was fighting and he realized that he had waited four years for the Olympics and that he was about to lose again after making the finals, and he just He faced Riddick Bowe. after losing the first round and physically crushing Bowe with very little force.

He just dominated him, and I saw him do that in fights where he was losing, or maybe about to lose. With Ray Mercer, when I told him that the last two rounds were going to determine the fight, he looked down, came out and took him out even though he thought he was already ahead on points. The first fight with Evander Holyfield, even though the crowd was going crazy, I told him I felt like the fight was going to be closer. There was one judge in particular that I was very suspicious of and it turned out that after winning big the last round, he got a draw.

But the point is that when you told him to do something, he did it and he could be very physical and that's what separated him from a lot of the greats I've worked with. I would say a perfect example would be the fight with Vitali Klitschko, his last fight. After being behind in the first three rounds, I realized that he was used to being the taller fighter and that he would lean back and relax and still take long punches because he thought he was out of his reach because he didn't hit it. He realized that he was the shortest fighter.

After thinking about the fourth round, I said, “Look, we have to change our strategy. “We have to take it to the streets.” I told him, “When you're there and with your jab this time, don't just do it: push all the way where you get him off balance, and if you miss with a left hook, hit him with your shoulders. When you come in, start throwing hooks, just make it an alley fight.” He went out and won the next two rounds, and at the end of the sixth round, I think when I was talking to him, he said, "I've got it." But he could resort to just being a brutal physical fighter if necessary and that's one of the great attributes I liked about him.

Look at the generation after him and the Klitschkos, who are dominating, it's a shame they don't really have any big name fighters to fight. He was lucky, even though he was criticized earlier for being too technical and complained to me that "I don't have a big name to fight since Riddick Bowe", who he really wanted to fight, he refused to do it. fight him, and later, I was with Eddie Futch and Eddie Futch said it was a decision he made. He felt that as good as Bowe was, he still felt that Lennox was still mentally and physically too strong and that if they had fought, what happened in the 1988 Olympics would have happened in professional fighting: that Lennox would still have dominated. .

Bowe at one point. So it was his recommendation that Bowe give up the (WBC) title rather than fight Lennox. So Lennox had no one to fight, he thought, and suddenly... BOOM. Here comes the fight with Evander Holyfield and then the fight with Mike Tyson, although, as far as I and most of the boxing public are concerned, both were already past their prime. They were still big-name fighters and Tyson was attractive because he was like the street kid, the thug, the tough guy, you know, the American kid from Brooklyn, the gangster guy, and that's why Tyson appealed so much to urban people. . type of mentality.

Lennox was still the great Brit, the 'mama's boy', the quiet guy, so Mike was too much of a street guy for Lennox and all that other than making decisions about who was going to win or lose on the talent level. . It was more about the idea of ​​two different lifestyles colliding, but what people didn't know was that Lennox himself grew up in Kitchener, Ontario. They use that British thing, but he came from England when he was twelve and started boxing when he was in Kitchener, Ontario, which is about forty-five minutes south of Toronto and that's where he learned to box and represented Canada in the Olympic Games. and only after realizing that he won the Gold Medal in '88, hey, it's more money in the British pound than the Canadian dollar.

So they decided to try to relocate it and label it outside of England. That's why they never accepted him, because it wasn't like he had won the Olympic Games for England and was fighting international combat; He had never practiced amateur boxing in England. So he was never fully accepted as British. I mean, he was there but he wasn't like (Frank) Bruno and the rest of the guys. So he was a man who was really caught between, you know, Canada, Jamaica, which is the place of his parents' ancestry, and then the British, and then the fact that he made almost his entire life out of it. . training in the latter part of his career in the United States and all of his fights in the United States and he had an American staff.

So he was actually a guy who was tied to four countries that he identified with. I think the fact that since he retired the Klitschkos are dominating, but they just don't have any fighters that the public thinks is a good value fighter, so you basically get credibility for your performance against top level opponents, and it's unlucky. He was able to fight some of those things, including the Shannon Briggs fight, which was an exciting fight, the Ray Mercer fight, and none of these guys have the opportunity to fight any fighter right now, so most consider him the best. last top heavyweight and now he is more appreciated by comparison: of what he fought compared to what modern fighters or champions are fighting.

How would you rate a younger George Foreman versus an older George Foreman, and when he takes those two chapters of his career and puts them together, how does that reflect on Foreman's overall legacy? George Foreman may be the most amazing heavyweight, definitely, I've ever seen. He had a whole career as a fighter with one personality and one style, and then ten years after a period of rest, so to speak, a different fighter, he had a different mentality and a different style to a certain extent, but the only thing that really In both of them a strong and strong-willed person prevailed, and their incredible determination and mental strength, as well as their physical strength, were simply amazing.

I think a lot of people don't realize that George Foreman was also an extremely intelligent wrestler in the ring. The first George Foreman immediately after the Olympics was very aggressive, he threw punches relentlessly, he had tremendous knockout power with both hands, but he was still such a smart fighter that he gradually burned guys out. He suddenly decided to come back and not be such a bad guy, to be a nicer and happier guy, but still, that meanness was still there in the ring and he changed his style a little to adjust to his getting older and not burn too much energy.

He developed the old Archie Moore type of crossbow defense, but the only thing that was still very consistent with him was that he always had a thunderous jab and his jab was more like a ramrod.He always threw a very good jab; technically it wasn't that beautiful, but it was very rigid and very hard. He would also throw open punches and then switch and throw a short punch. He analyzed his opponents very well. If you watch Joe Frazier's knockout, you'll see him throwing a wide shot and Joe Frazier swings under him and throws another wide shot and then switches and throws a short right hook.

I watched him years later when he was fighting, I think, Michael Moorer: I saw him intentionally throw a couple of open left hooks and he threw them again and Michael Moorer was getting into the mode of looking for open punches, and then he stepped in and threw a one two short, then he did it again and -Bingo! You look at his fight with Gerry Cooney the same way: short left hook. He was very intelligent. He would throw open punches, figure out where you were going to put your head on your defense and then switch with a short punch, but I think he was very underrated.

He would have been a huge threat to any heavyweight of any era due to the size of him and the incredibly tough mental attitude of him. Many fans view Evander Holyfield as one of the best heavyweights of all time, but at the same time, many of them believe that he has been around too long and that this is hurting his position. Has Evander damaged his legacy by fighting too much? If

history

serves me well, I would say yes, we will say it now because we are here while he is still fighting for a long time, but after he retires like always, I think these last five years or maybe in his case maybe it will be almost Ten years, I think the public will forget him and remember him again in his exciting fights.

I think he still hasn't damaged his legacy. I think it's just today, but as time goes on, it's like Ali and so many great fighters were. I watch Ali's last fights with Ernie Shavers, and even with (Trevor) Berbick and them and Larry Holmes, but he's funny, we don't talk or remember them. Fans gradually after a certain period of time, those fights for whatever reason seem to fade away and you remember a wrestler from his prime. I think in the long run he won't hurt you. I would like to see him retire, but I don't think it will hurt him in the long term.

Larry Holmes was a dominant heavyweight champion and I personally think it would have been a tough fight for any heavyweight in history. Unfortunately for Holmes, his reign fell between the reigns of the charismatic Muhammad Ali and the young and exciting Mike Tyson. How much do you think this bad match damaged Holmes' legacy in the eyes of boxing historians? I have no doubt that Larry Holmes' entry into the heavyweight championship position is definitely hampered by his fall between two of the most dominant fighters, I would say, with charismatic personality and style in the history of our sport, it is say.

Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali. Larry Holmes to me, I mean, I hate to say this, I don't know, he could have possibly been the biggest threat of all because when you talk about all-time greats, for some reason they use Jack Johnson, they use Muhammad Ali. , and in some cases I even listen to Joe Louis and Mike Tyson, but no one thinks as much about Larry Holmes and I think George Foreman. I think those are two guys that are very underrated. I think Larry Holmes' left jab alone, the speed of him, his incredible stamina, determination and ability to recover from blows, would have been a threat to anyone because that left jab was almost a machine in itself.

He didn't even have to have much more than that. I think style-wise, it would have been a problem particularly for George Foreman because George had trouble with quick, straight punches, but I think Larry is definitely underrated and underrated. I think people overlook him because he came along at a time when people were just stuck on Ali's image and then after that Mike comes along. He is definitely, perhaps, the most underrated heavyweight in history. Muhammad Ali always said he was the greatest. Was he the best or does Joe Louis have something to say about it? Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali were the two greatest, but in different ways.

Joe Louis was the greatest champion for what he did at that time. I thought that having those record defenses it is difficult to be a guy who for eleven years had twenty-five defenses. He was a perfect image of what he did for the country and the fight he had with Max Schmeling was probably the most epic event that I still have in my mind, not just in sports, but in any event in history. of the world because that night was like the night the world stopped, and this evil German machine that was like trying to take over the whole world, Hitler, it was strange that these two men in a small, limited space in the United States here, half naked and with something in their fists, they were almost going to determine the fate of humanity, so to speak.

And I learned as he traveled that it wasn't just in the United States. It was all over the world, everyone was on pins and needles waiting for that, and the fact that Joe Louis came out and had such an incredible knockout, especially in light of the fact that it was the same man who had knocked him out... and that It was like trying to almost stop that whole Hitler reign. It was just that that night he became bigger than a boxer and probably no man will be in that position to do what he did. He was a world, when you say “champion”, I thought the epitome of the word “champion” was Joe Louis.

If they fought, I think Ali definitely, I feel in my mind, he would have beaten him because Ali was the Computer Print of everything that was a problem for Joe Louis. The move Joe had trouble with, even at a little light heavyweight, Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott, those guys Joe always had trouble with. I was lucky enough to meet one of his best friends who came from Detroit like me, and he said that Joe's management always had to keep him away from boxers, people who could move, because Joe had problems with moving companies. . But you know, he did what he had to do.

He beat everyone of his time and held the title for so long and was a perfect gentleman when it came to what was required and necessary at the time. So I think he was the greatest champion as far as the word “champion” goes, but as far as who would have beaten who, I think Ali would have beaten him, and then I have a lot of respect for Ali because Ali was the only. champion that I know he fought against anyone, against everyone. It wasn't about styles. He fought guys who were terrible for him style-wise, but Ali just told Angelo Dundee, "let's fight," and put him with a guy like Kenny Norton, who was always going to be a problem because of the way Kenny kept his elbows. , he blocked jabs and right hands and that's all Ali basically had and then he fought him, I think, three times;

Joe Frazier; he went to London to fight Brian London and Henry Cooper; and I think he went to Canada to fight against (George) Chuvalo; he fought Karl Mildenberger to fight the Germans in Germany. He didn't care what style he had to fight, so in that way, Ali was the best because he fought anyone, everyone, in his country, if it was a style that was bad for him, he didn't care, he fought with it. in a rematch he would do that, whatever. In their own way, I think they were both the best two heavyweight champions, but that doesn't necessarily mean they still could have beaten an excellent Larry Holmes or maybe even George Foreman.

Who do you think represents the most difficult style matchup for Ali when he was in his prime? You know, it's really hard to say that because Ali fought every style there was and I think, as tough as he was, he would have been the guy he had so much trouble with: a little guy like Joe Frazier. If Joe Frazier had been around, I would say three inches taller and ten pounds heavier, he really would have been a nightmare, but I think Joe Frazier the way Joe would go down and swing and weave, he would come out with a punch, but more than That's Joe Frazier's mental mindset.

Joe had that same tough attitude that when Ali tried to do the psychological stuff he didn't mind because Joe also had the same kind of tough street attitude, and that was what made him such a challenge for Ali. It's lucky for Ali that Joe wasn't bigger, but Joe was the biggest threat to him, I still think just because of style. Ali could never beat Joe with his jab and his right hand and that's what also made Ali great. At a certain point in the fights, particularly in the third and final fight, he realized that his boxing skills would not lead to victory because he simply could not keep up with him and Joe.

He just said, "Oh, I just have to fight, so every time I get hit with two punches, I'm going to try to throw four punches" and he did what he had to do to find a way to win and that was one of the unique things about Ali. . When he found out something wasn't working, he just abandoned his boxing skills, the pretty boy and all that and he had to sit down and fight more than a guy and he really had to do that with Kenny Norton, I think. I would say the same too. Norton's style gave him problems but Norton was not mental, although he was older, he did not have the mental meanness and toughness of a Joe Frazier.

Rocky Marciano was the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. However, many people don't value it highly because they consider it too small for today's heavyweight standard. How should Martian be judged, by his size or by what he did in his time? Also, do you think that Marciano's size would be an impediment for him to be as dominant today as he was? Marciano's style definitely wouldn't have been achieved today because when you don't have size you make up for it with speed and he didn't have the best speed either. He arrived at a time when there were still good heavyweights.

I don't think he gets the credit he should have gotten for fighting guys like that, even though Marciano was fighting (Ezzard) Charles when Charles was a little past his prime, he was still a good tough fighter. I look at Archie Moore, when he knocked out Archie, I think Archie came back and had another winning streak and had never really lost the light heavyweight title. I think he was the epitome of what we simply call an "overachiever." When he was at the Kronk gym, we had big signs. pictures of Marciano and no one could understand why because he was not considered a great, but when you look at his record and you look at his achievements no matter what, all you can do is be the best of your time.

I think back in his time, he fought and beat the best, but the fact that he was a small guy, not so well coordinated, with short arms, had so many different physical disadvantages and came to do what he did through incredible training and conditioning and great hitting power in a single blow. So you have to respect him for that, and there was no one from his time that he avoided. He just couldn't find anyone who was a great fast fighter, so he did what he could for his time: beat everyone that was out there. I think he was also a much smarter fighter than people give him credit for, in his own way.

I studied film of him, I would see him get moving and look like he was going to do a little clinch and just as he was about to touch, he switches there with a short left hook, and sometimes he looked towards your body like he was going to throw his hand right hand or punching the body and then throwing the right hand just over the top, but it was very cute and clever in its own way because I knew he had disadvantages in other areas. I think his hitting power and his conditioning were phenomenal. If you look at (Jersey Joe) Walcott's knockouts: one punch in the 13th round after losing and getting knocked down, and then coming back to Archie Moore after being on the apron with Moore, who was still a good fighter, and he came . he backed up and knocked him out, and then the cut, nose completely smashed with Ezzard Charles and they told him they were about to stop the fight and he just stormed out and scored a knockout on that.

So you had to have a lot of respect for that. And he created the word "Rocky." It made him have a lot of value because, in particular, for the Italian fighters, the guy who was coming, even today, many of them feel that he is still their hero because I think he had more impact as a champion, particularly for the guys. Italians and white fighters, than any fighter I know in history probably because of that incredible punching power and his image of being in incredible condition. What are his views on the Super Fight CG showdown between Ali and Marciano in which Marciano won by 13th round knockout, and how would he see this fight if Marciano and Ali faced each other in their prime?

If Ali and Marciano fought I see Ali winning. Ali was too big and too fast and the fact that Ali had that big chin. Computers are programmed by men, so to me I don't think that if that were the case, we wouldn't even have to have any of the fights that we have today; We could just have the fights on a computer so we know who won and who. lost. You couldn't do that. I think Ali would have been too big and too fast for Rocky, because Rocky was in an era where he was what heavyweights were: 188-190 pounds.

A heavy weight of 200 pounds wasa very, very big man back then. A 200 pound heavyweight today isn't even a heavyweight, it's a cruiserweight and actually a small cruiserweight compared to some of them. At that time he was a heavyweight and he beat everyone, but I don't think he would have won. Ali, no way. I think Ali was too big and too fast, and particularly with his big chin and his great stamina in the later rounds. Jack Johnson is an interesting man in the rich history of the heavyweight division. Some fans tend to overrate him, others tend to underestimate him.

How do you rate it? I think he was a totally amazing man more than just as a fighter. I think he was a good fighter. He brought a new era of control in a fight. I don't think anyone has controlled a fight so easily and he was so relaxed during the course of the fight. When I look at his accomplishments in the ring, I think they're amazing and good, but I think he was better known for his character beyond boxing. His total go against the system and his totally righteous mission that he had was just to shame the white male race and do things that no one had ever done and probably today I don't think anyone would do the things that he did.

That's what to me is more about his character than the actual boxing attributes. I think he was a good fighter, but when you look at it, he beat Tommy Burns, a 5'7" guy in Australia, Stanley Ketchel, another 5'7" middleweight, Jim Jeffries, who was brought out of retirement to redeem the dignity of the white race, a man who had no business fighting a fighter in his prime, especially considering the fact that Jeffries was 36 years old, I guess, or something like that. He still didn't fight the black fighters of his time who were good fighters and then I guess he loses to Jess Willard who said he quit the fight.

It wasn't where he fought and beat so many dominant heavyweights, but I think his character and swagger is what really made him larger than life. I mean, he was a phenomenal businessman, he used to travel all over the world and negotiate his own deals, dressing up and changing clothes sometimes two or three times a day, talking to top presidents of countries. I think he was just a really incredible man, more so than even when you really look at the boxing part of it. Joe Frazier was the first man to beat Muhammad Ali, but according to some, his all-time standing is affected due to the two knockout losses he suffered against George Foreman.

Is Frazier still worthy of top ten consideration? Well, being the first man to beat Ali was really the most important thing and, as we have often said, many times you are only remembered for your great fights and his great fights are when Foreman knocked him out and with Ali he was. the biggest notarized fights of him. I think the fights he won with (Oscar) Bonavena and all that and Jimmy Ellis got overshadowed and that's unfortunate. I think Joe was a good fighter. I saw him approaching. We were together in the amateurs. Anyway, that's another story. I think the intensity he had when he turned pro was at a very similar level to Mike Tyson.

Joe might have been even a little more, in some ways, better than Mike to some extent. That's a question, Mike was more of a one-punch devastating guy, but anyway, I think his image will always be tremendously tarnished because of the bigger fights he lost and he'll never get the recognition he should. . His entire legacy is tied to the one word “Ali,” more so than even Foreman. It's Ali and Joe Frazier. I mean, I have a friend of mine in Germany who has two cats; one of them is called "Frazier" and "Ali", but those two got together as Joe Louis and Max Schmeling.

Most people agree that Riddick Bowe's best physical moment occurred during his first fight with Evander Holyfield. If Bowe had taken better care of his body and taken training more seriously, how good could Bowe have been? Bowe would have been a very good fighter, and I would say he could have been in the top ten of all time because of the way he moved. I thought that was the epitome of Eddie Futch's great skill. Eddie said that was because that was the only kid he took early on and turned him into a complete wrestler. I remember very clearly the night he knocked out Jesse Ferguson because I was there in the arena because his next fight was going to be against a guy he had just made a deal with to start training named Evander Holyfield, who he already expired.

He looked so good that night that at the post-fight press conference I mentioned it to Eddie and Rock Newman, his manager at the time, and told him that it seemed like he had become a completely perfect fighter and I didn't even know how the hell was. I'll even train Evander to beat him. I mean, he looked so good, he was doing everything: the punches, the hooks, the combinations, he was just doing everything. I think right after that fight, if I'm right based on what Eddie Futch told me, was when Eddie said he lost control. For the first time, when he was the one who set all the strategies, that was when the rest of the people in the camp and the management took over and decided that he was going to be the next Ali, he had to go meet the Pope. , and he said that from there he lost all his focus and discipline and the next fight was, as you know, with Evander Holyfield and I had Evander in good shape, so Evander beat him and that really tarnished his image, and then the fights. with Golota and whatever.

But he was on his way to becoming an all-time great and I think the Jesse Ferguson fight was kind of the last of that trend as he was moving in that direction. How disappointed were you as a fan and as a coach that Bowe and Lewis never fought as professionals? I was very disappointed in the fight because I think it would have been a very good fight for boxing. It would have been almost like an Ali-Frazier type situation, because they both had a good record and then the fight they had in the 1988 Olympics. You know, it was just all the elements.

Two super big products and it was the matchup in this new modern era of guys who were 6'5" and who had taken the nation by storm, and I was very excited about the fight. I thought it was a good fight because Bowe turned out to be a completely polished fighter compared to him when he fought Lennox, and Lennox had become a much better fighter, so it would have been a great matchup. I think it would have been great for boxing. Who do you think would have won? I think Lennox would have beaten him at that time because the talent was there, but I thought Lennox was still very strong mentally and physically.

Bowe had a slight advantage, maybe a little bit in the skills area, but I think over the course of a long twelve round fight, having gotten to know Lennox very closely and still being quite close to Bowe to a certain extent, going to camps and watching Eddie train. a little bit, that Lennox would have done pretty much what he did in the Olympics in '88 and that's what Eddie Futch felt the same way. That Lennox was still a very strong guy physically and mentally and no matter how talented Bowe was, there was always a little kid inside of him, and Lennox was still a tough, bad man inside of him and I think that would have made the difference. going down the straight.

If Sonny Liston had had the opportunity before him against Floyd Patterson and if he hadn't had Ali in the fight, how good could Sonny Liston have been? Sonny Liston, I saw Sonny Liston when he was a teenager do something that he had never seen any heavyweight do: go all the way through the division almost from number ten to champion because he was that devastating. '57, '58 and '59. I mean he had incredible and brutal punching power. He was bad, he hit with both hands, and I think when he finally got the title, I think his best years were behind him and right after winning the title he started living the life of a rich middle-aged man.

He lost the true focus that he had before. In 1957, 1958 and 1959 he was probably one of the most vicious machines that ever existed in boxing, but after he won the title, from my reports and what I understand, he started drinking a lot, playing golf and just lost that edge. total. He was living the life of a comfortable man and then comes exactly what the computer prints: the best in the world for him. A young and fast fighter, with good movements, a solid amateur training and who had been fighting in a regular basis, therefore, when the confrontation came, it was the perfect moment for one, a terrible moment for another guy who had spent from their prime, but if they had fought, say in 1958 or 1959, an excellent Sonny Liston and in a cousin would still say Cassius Clay or whatever, I don't know.

I don't know. Sonny at that time was a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the fights he had with Cleveland Williams, oh my gosh. I don't know, Sonny could have won if they had fought at that time. During the 1920s, just as Babe Ruth helped redefine the sport of baseball, Jack Dempsey helped redefine boxing to some extent. Is Dempsey's legacy tarnished by his refusal to fight certain fighters? Well, I know when you mention all-time greats you don't see Dempsey's name mentioned there, but to some extent he is like an American folklore hero. It wasn't that much, you really look at it and look at the big achievements or the super fights, it's not there.

I mean, you have the moment where he was so criticized for not going into service and serving his sentence. I think the fights he had with Gene Tunney, which were fights he lost, made him more lovable and attractive to America, which is strange, and then the fact that he lived in New York and moved and became where he was. . Right in the media capital of the world and he had this restaurant and everything. He's another guy whose legend grew even more after he left boxing, but I think the fights with Tunney are where he really made it.

He then knocked out Jess Willard. It was probably, at the time, one of the cruelest fights in boxing history when he, I guess, knocked him down six or seven times and got everyone's attention because he was such a small guy. They said, 'Wow, look at this little animal' and he went out and hit him, and then the fight with (Luis Angel) Firpo where he leaves the ring, so he had those fights and the fights with Tunney but in At that time, a boxing champion It was almost like, the popularity was almost like the president of the United States.

I would sometimes read in history that the world heavyweight champion had the same honor and dignity if he was brought into a room as president and that's how times have changed now, but in reality there weren't that many other superstars anywhere else. sports except Babe Ruth, probably. So him just being in the right place at the same time as a heavyweight boxing champion was something very special. I think the fights with Tunney are what really triggered him, even though he lost that fight on long count once, but all of that still contributed to their resemblance or whatever, and the fans' emotions when they fell in love. with him with more sympathy in the fights he lost than when he won.

What are his opinions on Floyd Patterson as a fighter? Floyd Patterson was a very good fighter with all that speed and everything, but he can't be considered an all-time great due to his inability to take a hit and the fact that the caliber of guys he fought in his For the most part, it was not his fault, but rather his management at the time. Cus (D'Amato) was doing what he thought, which was right, to try to prevent him from fighting mob-controlled guys like Sonny Liston. So, once again, he was a phenomenal fighter when it came to speed and combinations, but he didn't fight the high quality fighters of his era, not that there were many.

At that time, he was similar to what we have today, honestly. He was a good fighter, but I think being a New Yorker really increased his popularity a lot, especially at the time when New York was the capital of boxing, the media world and all that, and then his lack of personality being such a humble and humble man. very accessible to anyone and so down to earth that it was easy to like him and very difficult to dislike. So his popularity is more due to the fact that he was a very warm and friendly person and a New Yorker.

Vitali Klitschko retired for several years before returning to claim a share of the heavyweight title. Is Vitali Klitschko still in time to be remembered as one of the greats? I don't think he's going to spend enough time because even though he had his biggest claim to fame, and he tells me this and we laugh about it, he says, "The biggest thing that made me famous was losing to Lennox Lewis." and he still hasn't done anything to get over that, believe it or not. It's just a case of not having any fighters around for him to be the big name and the fact that he won't be here long enough for you to be able to say, well, he didn't have any big name fighters but he had a reign. for five or six years, so you have to give him some credit for that even though he fought a bunch of nobodies, but I don't think he's going to have that long a career and that many big heavyweight championship fights to really reach that level.

SoI don't think he's in a good position to be considered great yet, but who knows. He may still have a fight, you never know. He could end up with a high-profile fight with David Haye, possibly himself, or Nikolai Valuev with two of the greatest men in history. They would definitely be fights that would really be highlights of his career when people look back on it, but right now he would need about two more years to continue if he just dominated these types of guys. How do you think someone like Archie Moore, who had some success at heavyweight, although he lost both of his title fights, how do you think he would have performed in a different era?

Andrew Golota is a good example of an A-level talent who never became an A-level wrestler. Would someone like Golota have been more successful if he had wrestled in a different era? I don't think Golota would have been different at any time. Golota was not a winner inside, and champions are made inside. All the heavyweight champions that we have mentioned, when we talked about Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Marciano, they were strong, tough guys. To give an example, we once talked about Marciano. Fights where he got knocked down, his two biggest wins were (Archie) Moore and with (Jersey Joe) Walcott coming off the floor, those types of efforts.

Champions are made from within, and Golota was a loser. I saw him winning a fight when he was doing the broadcast with Michael Grant and he just quit because he got difficult, and with (Riddick) Bowe. He really he just quit. He threw cheap shots on purpose, it looked like he was almost going to get disqualified, and with Mike Tyson, in the fight, Mike was doing his best and after about three rounds before Mike, I guess, got tired or whatever, and I remember that he went back to his corner and when his coach jumped to his corner and took out the mouthpiece, he said, 'You should keep this because I don't need it, because I'm going to the locker room,' and he just left!

He just left, but he gave up. He wouldn't have held out at any time with anyone because as soon as the pressure got on him, even if he was winning a fight, I think he would quit. I think Archie Moore would have been good in any era. He was a very smart guy, very cautious, and it was really surprising that he wasn't that tall, but he was very smart, he knew how to conserve his energy and placed his punches very well. He would have been a threat in any era. He lost to Patterson, who was a young and extremely fast fighter whose speed and youth were too much for him at the time, and Marciano with too much determination.

With normal heavyweights, I think Archie Moore would have been good in any era, even with the '40s guys he would have done well with. Emanuel, where do you think the fighter you are currently training, Wladimir Klitschko, fits into this discussion about heavyweight greats? Right now, I think his last fight, even though it wasn't seen much, is the first time people realize that maybe we have something special on our hands that we're not really appreciating. I'm reading what I see in these Internet comments, and oh, he's been too cautious, he's too this, he's too that, but I think the public is starting to notice all the knockouts he's racking up.

So he's still there, starting to get to the limit where I'm reading fans that, people have said that maybe he's possibly a great fighter because of his incredible one-punch knockout power that you just can't. I don't see anyone, but right now he hasn't arrived yet. Unfortunately for him, there are no big super fights, but if he continues this totally dominant streak for two years, and as it seems, maybe three years, he will be considered up there. You'll see these impressions of what Wladimir Klitschko would have done with a George Foreman: He would have entered that era of those kinds of conversations.

A fight with David Haye would put him squarely in that mix of being considered if he had an impressive knockout over David Haye or something. I would put him in the mix where maybe saying, wow, this guy with his size, his jab, and everything, and the punching power of him, and his left hand, his right hand would put him where people would at least start to think and say. "Well, I can't just say that any fighter from any era would have beaten him because there is no one in this era," but he hasn't had that signature fight yet and he may never get it, so I think the only thing that can to do is continue to have a long career and if he overcomes another ten or twelve defenses, I think that will qualify him to be considered when talking about possibly the best heavyweights in history, but at this point he hasn't. come to that.

He's just starting to make people start to think a little bit about the fact that he may be a little bit better than we give him credit for, just in the fact that he still holds the title after almost two or three years. . On a somewhat related note, Emanuel, many fans are claiming that the heavyweight division is weak right now. Can you remember a time in history when the division has been in a similar state and what do you think needs to be done for this to be restored in the eyes of the fans? I think the heavyweight division is the weakest I've ever seen, that I can remember, I'd say it this way, but if you look back in history, it happens like this.

I think it's worse now because there's nothing that can come from the fans. That's what worries me. It used to be weak, but there was always George Foreman or even Klitschko. He is the last of the fighters from the '96 amateur program. He is the last product that went from the amateur system to the professionals and that was about fourteen years ago, and that is the problem. There's nothing that comes from the amateur system, and I don't see it in everyone, not even these Cubans or whatever and the Russians. I don't see much to come. I don't see anything else coming.

It's a weak heavyweight division and I don't see much coming that could improve it in the future. But if you look back in history, Joe Louis had that time where he would go to the "Hobo of the Month Club," as they called it, and fight with Tony Galento, "Two Ton," the bartenders, and this and that. Then I remember when Tyson was the same way. Nobody was up there for Mike. At that time he considered fighting Pinklon Thomas and them, but he still thought they were better fighters, but the public thought he was that dominant, but it was still a difficult era.

They said the same thing with Lennox. Lennox was having a weak division, but I thought that was even better. There were still guys like Shannon Briggs and good competitive guys. This is the weakest one I've ever seen, but it's part of heavyweight history and that's why we have these "Hobo of the Month Clubs" and all that, and suddenly, out of nowhere, someone explodes In the scene. Right now, the biggest explosion has been David Haye and it's nothing he did in the ring. Just by speaking verbally, he has created a lot of excitement and a big buzz about himself.

But he's weak, and I've never seen him that weak, and I hope he changes, but I don't even see him changing for another five years. Emanuel, which heavyweight would you most have liked to have the opportunity to work with, past or present, not including those you have already trained? Wow. The ones I always wanted to work with as much as I could were Lennox and Wladimir for the most part. I'd say... oh boy. Well, I really liked Larry Holmes. I liked Larry and George, so those are the two I would say. Emanuel, it has been a real pleasure speaking with you tonight.

Before I let you go, is there anything else you want to say to all the East Side Boxing fans? Keep supporting boxing. It will be back and it's great to have this great international flavor that is happening in boxing right now, so although we were talking about heavyweights and the most exciting thing about heavyweights is the history of heavyweight, not so much the present . , but boxing is going through a change right now and it's going to be very good in the future so keep supporting us. Excellent! That was fantastic. Thank you so much. But you know, you've gotten more out of the heavyweight division than probably anyone in history.

I don't think there's almost anyone, you know, who has really known and followed all these things about all these fights and stuff the same way I have. You know, you may have Bert (Sugar), but I've had the pleasure of working the corners of a lot of these fights and being a part of history. So you have an interview that I have never given and will never do. I am truly honored that you have given me all this time and knowledge. I think it was a great interview. I really want to go out. OK! Well, I'm glad it's over.

Now we don't have to worry about tomorrow, or the next day, or the next day. It's done. It's over. Thank you very much again and have a fantastic evening. Well. I enjoyed doing the show. Thank you! Take care, Manuel. OK dude! OK! Bye bye!