Heated debate on gender pronouns and free speech in Toronto

well it's a controversial topic on the University of Toronto campus this month, some people on campus say

pronouns

like he/she he or her don't accurately represent them now the University wants staff to use alternative

pronouns

, but Jordan Peterson is a psychology professor at the University and he refuses to do it. Take a look at this reason. I am defending

free

dom of expression in a civil society. Peterson, do you have any comments about the Nazi presence at your protest? The presence of Nazis and white supremacists attacking people in their protest. Do you have any comments on that?

Yes, differences. I'm talking the way I'm talking because I think this is a path towards non-violence and violence is lurking and you can tell that sounds like a threat, there was violence in our protest, oh my God, ah, what? could you refer to me if it wasn't for this law and I asked you to report me, we thought he did maybe what you had, your response was not a note if it helped, oh so just an example of how things have been? heats up at the University of Toronto seen showing different groups of students, some confronting the professor about his position, others supporting him now Peterson says it's about

free

dom of

speech

, but aw Pete is also a professor at the University of Toronto and says that Peterson's language is abusive joining us right now is professor Jordan Peterson and professor awp thank you for joining us today thank you professor Peterson let's start with you why are you against the use of alternative pronouns?

I know I'm against using legislation to determine what words I think I've already made my position clear on this, perhaps not for our audience at home who are just being introduced to this. you use advertised alternatives and why not me because I don't think other people have the right to determine what language I use, especially when it's backed by punitive legislation and when the words that are required are the constructions, there are artificial constructions of people. I consider him a radical ideologue whose point of view I do not share well. We have a chart to show our audience at home some of the pronouns that are used or asked to be used as alternatives to each other.

You can see here Z or Zim Z or here Z. or 0 also hear or rather and but just some of the alternative pronouns there is a Professor Pete when you hear Professor Peterson say that this is oppressive how do you respond to that? Well, the Peterson drama has done real harm to real people on campus. he has made it harder to be trans

gender

or non-binary. I know this from personal experience. I am non-binary and trans

gender

and I know what it feels like to be on the UFT campus for the last month and I also know it from private communications with others.

The effective people you know in New Zealand where I grew up, academics have a statutory role and are trained in the Education Act to be critical and aware of society, so I think it's an idea worth exporting to Canada, so I would like to tell Peterson. a B+ for his critical role recently and an F for the conscience part, a student once told me when I finally got tenure, now a professor, that now that you have gained superpowers you should agree to use them for good, for peace and justice , so I invite you. Peterson, start doing more of that, okay Professor Peterson, those who are asking for this alternative use of using alternative pronouns instead of alternative pronouns say it comes down to respecting your human rights, how do you respond to that?

I don't think it comes down to respect for their human rights. I think it is an imposition on freedom of expression that is being implemented at the legislative level. I also believe that if there was a naturally evolving solution to the language problem posed by a small fraction of the transgender community, those people would have adopted it by now, we have never had a situation where we thought about the use of English before legislation was required to bring about a transformation in the way people spoke has a very dangerous precedent, so it's one thing to tell people what they can't say, for example we have legislation that makes it illegal to do things like deny the Holocaust .

It's a completely different thing to demand that people use certain words when formulating their own ideas, and I mean, I can understand that's absurd too. I mean, something has happened that I don't think the framers of this legislation ever anticipated, so in New York City, for example, there are now 31 protected gender identities and I don't see any reason why each of those gender identities cannot demand the use of their own pronoun, and absurd things like that have been happening on the University of Michigan campus, for example, where students have been given permission to tell professors and others what pronouns must use and are multiplying rapidly. out of control, so the law is bad from an ethical perspective, it is poorly written and, furthermore, the solution it imposes is practically unsustainable.

Well, I'm sorry, excuse me for interjecting, but I want to bring Professor Pete here because we showed him those words. our audience at home and maybe in the control room can show our audience once again when you look at those alternative pronouns. I think it's fair to say that some people will look at that at home and see it as very unwieldy, so to speak. to that kind of criticism, including the one you have just heard from Professor Peterson. Well, I would like to encourage people who struggle with us to be kind as a first impulse.

You know, we call someone what he wants to be called in our society, for example. Don't call someone Julie if she prefers to be called daughter, that's just basic human courtesy. Here's a great little tip for people who are desperate to remember some of all those pronouns. What I do is simply program the pronoun next to the person. name on my smartphone, so whenever I'm out and about and I forget if one of my trans friends uses a Z or a zero or they or something else, I just look it up and it's really super easy.

What I would really like you to consider regarding this controversy is to be careful who you focus on in an argument. Political correctness is a code that powerful people use when they are upset because they are not actually the center of attention in a given discussion. and Bill surprises that c16 is actually not about cisgender people but about protection for transgender people and that's not like that, you know, it's not about Peterson, so you know we should make people learn to listen more, we have two ears and a mouth for a very good reason when things get political.

I like to ask who benefits and who decides the rules of the game, so you know, mainly with this Peterson controversy, which is really just a dramatic little tempest in a teapot, you know it could outweigh learning to program some. pronouns on your phone by the way I only have half a dozen or so that I use every day so it's not that hard sorry now since we have a good job because I think Professor Peterson wants in on that yeah Well. Kindness is the excuse that social justice warriors use when they want to exert control over what other people think and say, so you know, if we're pooling our value differences, you know, I would say the highest possible value is the truth and one of the concomitants is that we need strict protection of freedom of expression so that we can speak the truths that we consider appropriate and I think that is a much higher value than kindness, for example, I mean there are many situations of life in which kindness in the immediate present is not the appropriate way to react, but, for example, when you discipline children, you often hurt their feelings in the short term so that they can learn to behave correctly in the medium and long term. term. for their lives to go well and this automatic assumption that people on the social justice warrior side of the equation are motivated only by goodness when they are also clearly motivated by power is something I find completely untenable and do not believe Pete's solution of programming my cell phone so I can remember what names people should be called is a reasonable solution.

In reality, we are now supposed to use electronic devices to reinforce our ability to speak freely. How in cases where someone is so difficult. to remember a pronoun you remember someone's name you remember their phone number I mean, I guess I don't remember people's names very easily and I don't remember their phone numbers very easily and when I see a stranger I call them by the pronoun they seem agree with their presented appearance, so they appear that way or they, you are lazy. I think there is a very high value that we should also aspire to, besides the truth, by the way, about this whole controversy.

I've told the truth at all times, so you know, I try to imply that that's not what's happening to people in social justice amaya, social justice warrior. I don't know, but I think we should aim for pluralism, this means recognizing more than one set. of fundamental principles that foster independent cultural traditions of minorities and are willing to share power with people who are different from you. I think if you stop focusing all this controversy on yourself and how difficult it is for you to accommodate queer people, we will have a little sympathy, I mean those of us who are trans, we find many more dignities every day and every week of the month, for example, have you recently had a bank employee accuse you of trying to impersonate yourself at a bank and then blocking your ATM? card and credit cards so you can't use money that's the kind of problems that trans people face every day being homeless being considered you know, considering suicide these are really big problems my refusal to use pronouns because left- The wing activists want me to wear them has nothing to do with whether or not trans people have difficulties in society and I would also like to point out that I have received many letters of support.

I have received many letters of support from trans people. people and tell me that trans people, trans activists don't support them and that most trans people actually wanted to be called he or she, doesn't mean they were my friends. I'm transphobic, they had to know some people alone. because you told me that you didn't know those people you don't know the trans community like the trans community you have no idea what the trans offensive is fast trends professor sorry to interrupt let's leave it professor Peterson finish your thought please okay , then trans activists are not adequate representatives of the trans community because they have not been elected by the trans community.

There are other noises in the Jordan. I don't speak for anyone except. myself and on behalf of others who may want to use the right to freedom of expression. I am not claiming to be a representative of white people or white men or any other group. I'm speaking on my behalf. and then I'm not going to accept, but no, Mr. Professor Peter, so let me go in there because we have seen an evolution of language, there are words that we don't use, non-white legislation, well, legislation or not, they are words that have evolved. don't use, for example, I'm Asian, I'd be angry if someone called me oriental, that's an evolution of how we use words, how this different climate is legislated or not.

It was an excellent iron record. I just know you said yes I understand legislatively, but if at the heart of this is allowing a student to study without what they feel is discrimination, why not help? I already made my arguments as to why not just help with that. I think this legislation is extraordinarily dangerous and also contains other elements that In our society we have not even gotten there yet to protecting gender expression and I have looked at gender expression in the Ontario Human Rights Code and as far as I can tell , gender expression is best summed up in one word because it is the way you present yourself in public with your clothes and the way you dress, so I also think that the legislation that we are introducing with bill c16 and that already in place in places like Ontario also makes fashion criticism something similar. to a hate crime and because there has been so much noise about the identity component of this, we haven't even talked about gender expression, this is atrocious legislation and the idea that referring to someone with the pronoun of your choice will improve radically their status. on society or on your mental health is a completely unproven assumption.

I think it will have exactly the opposite effect, Professor when I say to Professor Pete. I want to ask you because it's been mentioned a couple of times as well. Professor Peterson's point about what this was. popular if this were so necessary there would be a natural evolution there would be no need for legislation why the need to legislate this instead of allowing itevolve naturally well bill sixteen C sixteen and the Ontario Human Rights Code don't actually legislate use of pronouns, they don't specify thirty one genders or anything like that, but let me interject, although the university is essentially saying in this point that it is up to HR staff to use alternative pronouns in a way that legislates their staff to do this in any way.

Legislation or legislation also requires that the university has made clear its agreement with that assumption on my part by mentioning in the letter asking me to silence me that I am obliged to act in accordance with the provisions of the Ontario Human Rights Act , so the University doesn't quite know that the legislation does precisely what I suggest it do, it's not precisely written in Bill C 16, it's written in the Ontario Human Rights Code and if you read the Human Rights Code Ontario Human Rights Commission policies on such things, you will see very quickly that the use of preferred pronouns is part of the legislative package, so it is excellent, it is a region to cut back on in Jordan, you will discover that they are actually called pronouns correct, there is no preference.

There is no material on terrorism on this, there is on the Ontario Human Rights Commission website where the policies are laid out and if people don't believe that, they can go find it themselves, Professor Peet, when they hear it's about freedom. expression. In this case Professor Peterson is heard essentially saying that he does not want to be legislated to adopt new language. What is his response to that? Well, I share a number of Jordan's concerns about free

speech

and academic freedom on campus. Both are very important principles and should apply regardless of the type of politics you like, for example if you are a winner from the left or from the right or a winner when you are a winner from below or whatever, but you know the reason why We have laws that protect academic freedom and freedom of expression are mainly to prevent government interference in people's lives and in their businesses, in reality they are mainly to protect against a form of structural violence and were these freedom laws of expression were never actually intended to be used. as accountability shields for all purposes, you know, so that you don't have to be held accountable for your actions, I'm perfectly willing to be held accountable for my actions and the university has already indicated how seriously they view my actions and I also.

I don't believe free speech laws existed to protect or regulate violence. Free speech laws exist because we use free speech to identify problems in our society, generate solutions to the problems, and then come to a consensus, so that's what freedom of speech really is. Protecting the mechanism by which our individuals and society orient themselves appropriately over time is not even a principle. It is the fundamental method by which our societies manage to maintain the stability they maintain and so on. It is one of the ways in which we do it. Yeah, well, I would say that's the fundamental way and I mean, I think we could have a reasonable discussion about that, but because freedom of speech is so closely tied to the means by which we solve problems, I mean, I think you already know. and then I speak but I am corrected when I speak in public and the fact that the people I speak to constantly correct me helps guide my speech properly and helps guide the public discussion properly and I can also tell you that If there wasn't something absolutely vital in game here that had a lot more going on than just simple kindness, wouldn't there have been millions of people watching, for example, the assault that took place during the free speech demonstration that took place a few days after I posted the video which I see CBC conveniently omitted to include in their video clips at the beginning of this interview, well, Professor Peterson, we want to thank you or I'm sorry, we're in a moment here. but I want to thank you both for joining us today, namely University of Toronto professors Jordan Peterson and Aw Pete, talking about what has become a huge controversy at the University of Toronto and beyond.