Elif Shafak and Wole Soyinka | Studio B: Unscripted

sometimes we write because I think we are closeted masochists our entire relationship with the past is full of ruptures one of my guiding mantras Mandi slept Nations died so that humanity could survive I want a trial for allegedly storming a radio station at gunpoint in defense of democracy I think it was a human problem and I am a human being, you are right in saying that I got involved. My name is Wally Franco. I am a Turkish-British novelist and, like all storytellers, I am attracted to stories, but also to silences. the things we can't talk about I have multiple attachments like all of us and multiple attachments mean multiple stories I'm in if Schaffer felt a new ellipse Iraq before it even mattered like me in Nigeria she often disagrees with the government of her country through her her works gave voice to those who are often bewildered.

I knew Waller as the first African author to win the Nobel Prize in Literature. I really see it as recognizing a core of creativity that goes back centuries, but also in his role as a Defender of human rights and freedom of expression. He really wanted to have an open conversation and discuss topics that are both current, universal and close to our hearts. What unites us makes us all human. It is a great honor to share the same stage with you. You and I have been talking about the arts of storytelling and what it means in today's polarized world and I have always thought especially of authors for storytellers who come from wounded democracies like Turkey, Nigeria, Egypt, Pakistan, Venezuela, Brazil, the This list is very long and is getting longer.

I don't think that as writers from that country we have the luxury of being apolitical, we can't say that I'm just going to write my stories and not really think about what happens outside the window, but there is one thing that catches my attention. Especially after the year 2016, I think more and more Western authors also began to feel perhaps the urgency to speak because we have seen how in country after country democracy can die, that history can go backwards, it does not always necessarily move forward and Of course, I spoke so powerfully and eloquently about the need to express our criticism and what happens to the human soul if we do not criticize tyranny.

I'm so glad we're starting with the same language as the narrator. Let me take this opportunity. to say that no writer is just a story to tell a story as a historian as a psychologist he is a philosopher he is a builder he was a creative person so I am very happy that we identify ourselves here tonight as storytellers, you started a very difficult path topic of introspection what is my responsibility as a writer what is yours I don't see any special responsibility for the writer beyond expanding the horizons of his community of humanity at large I know I agree with you that some of us don't have that luxury and I The fact that we are burdened by that weight of history bothers us.

It bothers me that because there is something that existed before, let's say that the colonial experience defines us as second-class humanity and yet, I know that you and I know that yes, we feel that we have to transcend a certain incorrect position that we have been given strength external and after that, after expelling them, what happens, we have our intention, our colonizers and then we have to fight. these new orders again and again to distort the history of our society, our past, to permanently enthrone us with our boots on our necks. I think sometimes we write like, especially in quotes, the developing world, the third world, Africa.

I think we really are closeted Masochists, we love taking on this burden. I don't see any other explanation for it. Well, it's quite irrational. I agree, but also maybe, of course, as storytellers we chase stories, we chase words, but equally I think we're drawn to silences, to things we can't. speak easily in a society at a given time and that includes taboos political taboos cultural taboos sexual taboos just to be able to ask why we can't talk about this topic it's important for writers to ask questions and not try to guide the answers I was intrigued by what you said and resonated with me because I often think that Turkey has collective amnesia, our entire relationship with the past is full of ruptures and because of that void it is now being filled with ultra-nationalist or religious interpretations of history. interpretations of history where you can't talk about the complexity of theirs and if you want to draw attention to that you can easily be labeled a traitor, yeah, just a cognitive flexibility to ask how I would feel if I had been a member of a minority in that period, for example, simply focusing on individuals is very difficult because official history does not include human beings.

Being a novelist in a country like Turkey is a bit like receiving a slap on one cheek and a kiss on the other. at the same time and I say this because clearly these are lands where words matter, so every journalist, anyone who works with words, knows that for something you write you can easily get into trouble, but on the other hand, perhaps, paradoxically, Countries where words are not so easily written, pronounced, perhaps matter even more. I saw the movie Oh decades ago, when as we spoke and he just crossed my mind, it had to do with the colonization of the Americas, it depicted a native Indian village and in that village there was an obviously gay individual who lived in a hot environment and who He interacted more with women when he was accepted like that in the community and there he was and now in that same continent in probably in that same part of the In the world you have those who are, you know, who are saying that if I this is sin, you don't know anything about biology, human anatomy, you don't know anything about hormones, nothing about exploring human tendencies and there now they are stigmatizing and this is where Writer I think that, especially in the so-called settled societies, the writer has a responsibility special, at least he has the tools to rewrite the historical conception, just like that filmmaker who obviously deliberately inserted this kind of domestic scene in contrast countries like Nigeria and within this decade.

Your legislators, who are all the problems that are sealing Nigerians, poverty, kidnapping, etc., etc., took time to pass a law that included phrases like the expression of affection between two people of the same sex is going to and I wondered and wrote at the time. What is your problem with what happens to consenting adults? You no longer have enough of your own problems and so you have politicians for their own purposes or for others rewriting what you know, imposing their own newly acquired prejudices, deliberate distortions of humanity in the name of the progress they make, they rewrite so many things, they rewrite history, religion and also laws, they passed laws when I look at Turkey in particular, of course there are so many women who are very vocal and strong in all areas of life. from academia to medicine and the business world, but in one there is a field in which women are very few and it is politics dominated mainly by very conservative and very religious men.

One of the laws they tried to pass recently actually involved reducing the sentences of rapists. if they agree to marry their underage victims because from then on, according to their mentality, the rapist is doing the family a favor in everything that matters to them, this is our concept of honor and, of course, there was a great reaction of the society. and then they took it back, but the reason I mention it is that we need women to support each other, we need a very strong, smaller woman, who goes hand in hand with minorities with LGBTQ rights, we need a strong civil society . when society is divided, when women are divided, especially I think the only thing that benefits from that is patriarchy itself and it worries me because before we talked about how country after country we have seen a decline in democracy and an erosion of democracy and I think that every time there is more nationalism there is more religious fundamentalism there is also an increase in sexism there is also an increase in homophobia all these things are related we tangentially touch on the well-known topic of power I would write how to do with fiction with history and so on You know being what politicians are more I am afraid of history or fiction and they will tell you that the reason I ask is because I come from a society where we discover a lot.

I think it wasn't long ago that the story had been removed from the curriculum and yes, it's a shock to me and then I wonder, well, they haven't been able to destroy the fiction but they had the story at their disposal, the story of the runner, so like I said, why? They are really afraid yes yes and I think that is precisely when stories and the arts of storytelling can make a difference. As I was listening, I was thinking about one of the books that I read very early in life and that left a great impact on me, it was the works of Yvonne Rich of the Balkans when I first read her work.

When I was a high school student, it occurred to me that there were like two peasants talking about the Janice tree system, which was the heart of the Ottoman Empire in a way that the military and in school what I had learned was that we were a great Empire wherever we went we brought civilization but then there were these two Balkan peasants talking about that institution, one of them said that thanks to this system our poor children were able to receive education and go all the way and become its ears and the other one said: are you Are you sure that because of this system they forgot their identity? fiction I understood what the writer was trying to do, you know?

Can you change your angle? Elizabeth's, that cognitive one. You know flexibility and trying to see the same story through the eyes of another person and then another and keep doing this until we realize there is no such thing. like history with a capital H being forced on us, but there are all these realities and complexities that we honestly need to talk about if you want to be honest, ignore people, should we get them to ask a question or two? You are both the narrators. I have spoken, but you are also activists, role models and agents of change and I wanted to ask you both if there was a specific moment or period in your lives when you came to embrace and accept your role as agents of change and if so , what gave you the courage to put on those shoes is the first time I don't see myself as a brave person at all honestly I'm just a curious person and I don't want to lose that curiosity about the details of life the connectivity with other human beings maybe Maybe it goes back to my childhood because I realized that, when I look back, there were so many times when I felt like the other one, you know, a little bit like the insider, the outsider, hanging on to the edge. trying to be long, so it gets to me.

It is very natural to give more voice to people who have been others and I think that in my work I always want to give more voice to the silenced and try to bring the periphery to the center that matters to me, but also maybe part of the reason is the in the way I was raised, I grew up without seeing my father and was raised by two completely different women, my mom is very westernized, very modern, urban, very rational, well educated and my grandmother would probably accept all the other boxes, you know , more oriental, very spiritual.

Less educated but very wise and she is a woman who had been denied a proper education but believed strongly in girls' education so for me to see the solidarity of her Brotherhood and the way they supported each other It did have a big impact on me, you know, they didn't. I don't agree with everything, but they supported each other, so I think looking at people despite the circumstances, how we should empower each other, how we should connect with each other and how we can all learn from those bonds that left a big impact on me. Growing up, yes, I told our hosts this morning.

I said don't worry. I know her. I already know her. Don't worry. We will have a good conversation. I know her and read about her. I just saw myself also the ability. temperament has been affected by the environment, you know, in one way or another, for better or for worse, in a few days I will return to Nigeria and believe me, until the moment I get on that plane, I wonder what the hell you are. Go back to that damn country, right? Is life more peaceful here? What the hell is he pushing? I just don't know, but I will give you an example of something that has affected me tremendously and thank God this example comes from a girl a girl her name is Lea Shari boo she was one of the school students who were kidnapped by Boko Haram in Nigeria and were rescued but as they were leaving the fundamentalist terrorist insisted that they had to renounce their religion before being released. everyone did except one Lea sherry boo and I wondered what put a child in danger for saying no like Nelson Mandela did when he was paroled she was between 14 and 15 she said at that age she didn't yearn forfreedom longed for a family environment Man, what was it that pushed adults?

They didn't know and they stayed behind and she stayed behind. She is still a prisoner to this day. I think it's the same impulse that drives us as writers and activists that something intolerable, unacceptable in our environment, would simply have to do it. Saying no is something that bothers me so much that they wrote you a long poem when you were put on trial for insulting Turkishness in 2006. I wonder if you could tell us a little more about that and also particularly interested in what you wrote when you were acquitted , you felt that the trial was an uprising against authoritarianism, so you had some hope for Turkey at that time and I was wondering if you did and do you know if you still feel hopeful in the circumstances that you explained to us earlier.

We are talking about such a complex country, right? I don't think it can be simplified, no country can of course, but it is home to a lot of conflict and this government has been in power for so long and when they came to power, a bit like in Hungary, they came to power. with many promises of reform, including support for turkeys, the EU membership process, the peace process with the minorities, the Kurds, the Armenians, making a new constitution that would be more liberal, more pluralistic, so The early years were shaped by that narrative and today I am a bully for saying this, but Turkey has become the world's leading jailer of journalists, surpassing even China's sad records.

Now I have hope in my country, of course I do, and I also know that the government and the people are not the same when we talk about wounded democracies. I think it is always very important to keep SADS in mind. The tragedy of lands like ours is that many times people are ahead of their governments and yet we do not hear their voices, we do not hear the complexity of civil society. That is why I think it is very important to be very vocal and clear when it comes to criticizing authoritarian governments and raising issues about human rights and freedom of expression, especially these are non-negotiable issues, Obul postponed issues, we must be very loyal in the defense of human rights, but at the same time At the same time, connect with the people you know, connect with the minorities in that society, the women in that society, the youth in us and never isolate people.

This is a question for mr. Gingka I read that in the 1960s you detained a radio station at gunpoint for election fraud. I was wondering where you draw the line in terms of political protest. First of all, are you saying you don't believe in Nigerian justice? I was acquitted in court and here you are accusing me again. I have been acquitted friend. I mean, what am I supposed to do next to satisfy everyone? I'm innocent. I think all of us, whether we like it or not, thrive especially in circumstances like ours. develop a philosophy of violence it is always very personal your inner conviction the inner restlessness the desire to be at peace with yourself you can't sit back and say you're writing a poem when next door someone is being raped or violated in some way that you despise that pen, you can write about it later, but you know that you are obligated to take action at that moment.

Oh, you stop being a human being. You know, one of the topics I was hoping we could talk about is also where to draw the line between freedom of expression and hate speech. I find it particularly difficult because all my adult life I have fought for and believed in freedom of expression and one of the things that concerns me is on both sides of the Atlantic, particularly among young people, this need for safe spaces. and vetoing speakers with very different views is becoming a bigger and bigger problem and I worry that if we are only surrounded by people who think like us, vote like us and dress like us, that is a very narcissistic existence. , so I think the point where Draw the Line is the kind of hate speech that incites violence and targets minorities, people who are in a vulnerable position, that's another thing, but other than that, I want to have open spaces for multi-opinion debates and, especially, to hear the voices of people whose voices have been denied until now by people who like to think that their nationalism is not as ugly as someone else's nationalism.

One of the biggest fears I had when I was in exile was that they could catch me because they had told me that I wanted to live there, on the contrary. Goodness is not necessarily bad, it is the moment when we become numb, sensitized and indifferent. Being a novelist in a country like Turkey is a bit like receiving a slap on one cheek and a kiss on the other at the same time. No writer is just a The story I began to tell you as a historian, as a psychologist, is a philosopher, when societies are deeply polarized, the only people who benefit from that are populist demagogues, the question of identity is something we must admit , applies not only to writing, as of course.

In fact, it is our heart or the type of nationalist dilemma that plagues Europe: that of identity has become a critical issue in general in the world and, yet, there are human beings who do not always positively transcend the nation. For example, certain religions, certain religious people feel that they owe more and that identity must be harnessed and related through their religion, ultimately a writer, but especially me, who draws so much from this society and, of course, That I'm a global traveler who regularly aspires to, oh, I know how. I take hold of myself Caesar I know what that is, but what am I really to the other?

Do I define myself by nation or what is your answer? I think I'm an even more pathetic writer than I am. I suspect that how is identity taken? How does it look in your work is a question that matters a lot to me because I don't think we have to have a monolithic identity despite what we are told there is a lot of pressure on many of us to belong to one box and stay in that box, You know, are you a Muslim?, just be a Muslim, are you this?, just be that and stay there forever, but I believe that as human beings we have multiple belongings and that multiplicity is worth fighting for.

When I look at myself, I realize it very clearly. Of course, I have a lot of attachment to Istanbul and I take it with me everywhere, but I also have a lot of attachment to the Aegean, to the Balkans. I carry so many elements of the Middle East in my soul. I am European by birth. choice the values ​​I share over the years I became a Londoner, a British citizen and despite what our politicians say today I think I would like to consider myself a global citizen and a global soul, why can't I be several things that people like? to think that your nationalism is not as ugly as someone else's nationalism that your nationalism is actually the right kind of nationalism which is a civilized nationalism and I don't believe in that I think the core of nationalism is quite ugly it's divisive it's based on a distinction between us versus them and on the assumption that we are somehow better than them and it takes a financial crisis or a political crisis for that core to emerge, so when I say I make a distinction between loving your country loving your culture you know to be emotionally attached these are beautiful feelings as an author every time you know I have written a book in Turkey people said oh she wrote a book about Armenians that must be a secret Armenian so I wrote another book let's say another story, they say oh, she must be a secret, you know, she must be a secret code because all these conspiracy theories in places where there is no democracy, but underlying it is the assumption that if it's not your story, why should you care?

If it's not your identity, why would you even try to write about someone else's theft? I think we should be very aware of that and very critical of the fact that in West Africa some years ago the Nigerian government decided to expel the Organians from Nigeria. In fact, there is an expression in Niger: they called Ghana Moscow, yes, and I felt personally violated. I felt like a violation had taken place on my behalf and I found it very disgusting. In fact, at my university, my department became a kind of refuge and challenge. that no one came to touch them while I was there because I couldn't understand why there should be such a distinction equivalent to the right of expulsion between them and me, and we have had that experience all over the continent as soon as a little problem arises. created by governance's mismanagement of the economy, the immediate impulse is to look for scapegoats or, of course, the frontline scapegoats are quote-unquote foreigners, and of course, look at what's been happening in South Africa, which even goes as far as lynching, persecution and lynching.

Nigerians in Zimbabwe, of course, see that this leaves one in such a weak position when one now has to denounce ultranationalism and the waves that are taking over Europe and affecting politics, immigration policies and even political internal. Governance in which the machinery of government is arranged primarily against foreigners. One of my guiding mantras is to let nations die so that humanity can survive. The problem I have is that I don't know what will take its place. Nations have become the tooth for so long that they also need a real expert dentist but the old thing is that this is as if we have no memory as if we had forgotten it and I am not talking about the history that happened a long time ago and that affects There is a complacency to everything like Well, I observe this a lot, as if some parts of the world were more solid, safer and more stable lands.

You didn't really have to worry about democracy. In those countries, for the most part, the Western world was seen this way. You really didn't have to worry. If we care about human rights, freedom of expression, women's rights or minority rights, we would have to think about these issues in liquid lamps outside the Western world and I think that after 2016 that perception has changed. shattered, but there is still the assumption that some countries are inoculated against the rise of the far right. Germany was thought to be one of those countries because people thought that after experiencing the horrors of fascism they would never make the same mistake again and now for the first time since World War II.

War, we have a far-right group within the German parliament and of course Sweden was considered another vaccinated country because it is the welfare state and the bastion of social democracy. Now we have the rise of the far right in Sweden and the UK. be vaccinated against the rise of the far right, because it has very different traditions, it doesn't even have a written constitution, a very strong control of liberal democracy and many other historical reasons, but again we can't say it right, it will never happen again and We are seeing the rise of hate speech, hate attacks directed especially at minorities, immigrants, suddenly this toxic language in politics made it okay for people to say things that were unspeakable until recently and yet they I feel. contradiction in me, like for example on the African continent, I feel closer to Africans in the diaspora and I feel with the Maghreb region in North Africa.

I definitely feel a closer affinity and find myself much more interested in the cultural fortunes, of course, retentions in Brazil. for example, where you have the Yoruba people in Cuba, etc. I know a kind of happy visceral connection even in sports. I must confess that I am racist when it comes to sports. I'm interested. I am interested in tennis only when Serena or Venus. Williams playing or golf I'm not interested in golf, but every time I hear the name Tiger Woods I want to know how he's doing, that's there and I wonder if we shouldn't think more in terms of cultural blocks, but I definitely confess it. that contradiction in me contradiction I think it's peaceful to feel that kind of attachment to emotional belongings.

I don't associate it with the nationalist way of thinking or any more reductionist way of thinking, so the opposite, I find important for us to feel. Those emotional ties are why I insist on making a distinction perhaps between patriotism and nationalism. I think patriotism is too important to be left to nationalists. I also believe that faith, for example, is too important to leave in the hands of religious people. I think politics is very important. Leave it to career politicians and I'm also curious to know your views on the language, how does it feel to write in English?

Did you get any reactions because I got a lot of reactions because I write in both English and Turkish, but more? and more I write in English and sometimes it is difficult to explain this to people, so I only think in nationalist terms because for them it is always a choice between one or the other, so if you write in English it means that you have abundant essence, your mother tongue and However, I think this is the time when many of usWe dream in more than one language, so when I look at my writings I realize that if I write about melancholy, sadness, longing, it is easier for me to express these things in Turkish, but with humor, irony in particular and everything is much more easy, there is no doubt for me, well, language is at the same time a vehicle, it is a technicality for its use, at the same time it has this extension to be a repository not only of ideas from the history of philosophy, as well which for me I see no reason why humanity cannot have its cake and eat it and that is why when I talk about being multilingual for me this is the ideal if you want the streets of Nigeria for example started in English end in Yoruba and change to broken English for For me it is an expression of the complexity of the thought process that is instinct.

If you don't find the expression in a language, you naturally switch to the language from which the idea was originally derived, of course, I also have this criticism, why? writes in English, it's in Latin, English is in fact the language of coup plotters in Nigeria, when they want to take over and take control of our lives, they speak in English, so you can't get anything more basic than a sudden transformation. of yourself from even a partial democracy to an absolute dictatorship, but anyway you know I think it's about time we brought it. I was wondering if you've ever felt particularly frustrated by the lack of impact given the increasing erosion of democracy and shrinking civic space, so please do.

Do you think that the language and narrative of human rights advocates, including yourselves, should in some ways try to change to more effectively reach people who currently seem to be more attracted to damaji, but the language of nationalists and far-right populists: "In this time we all need to become more engaged citizens, for me that is incredibly important and There is one thing that worries me when I read the memoirs of writers and poets who have survived the worst calamities in the history of humanity, including the Holocaust, almost everyone says something similar, they say that bad things happen, not because people are bad, there are some bad people, but relatively speaking, their numbers are mild and that is why they say the opposite of good.

It is not necessarily evil, the opposite of goodness is not necessarily bad, the opposite of goodness is, in fact, moms, it is the moment when we become insensitive and indifferent, that is a very dangerous turning point because on that ground we can sow the seeds of all kinds of racism, all kinds of sexism and xenophobia, once enough people become desensitized then it is important to talk about human rights and the stories of others, but you are right, something needs to change our style too , sometimes populist demagogues are better at addressing people's emotions than their liberal counterparts.

It's so dualistic that they talk about the people versus the elite, but I think more and more of us deliberate that it is necessary to start using the words the The words, you know, they break them into pieces, so I deliberately use populist in eat because populists They have no problem with elitism as long as they are, they will eat now, they are not really criticizing it, it is them and many of them are. In fact, we'll eat when we look closer and the second thing is that they think of people as a homogeneous whole, but they divide them into real people versus unreal people, people who really matter versus people who don't matter that much, so everyone.

What I'm trying to say is that the problems are real, but populism is the wrong response to those real problems and we have to do a better job in terms of addressing those real problems and reminding each other and ourselves that human rights they matter. I wanted to ask. to both of you about your periods of exile in which you could not return to Nigeria or Turkey for your own safety, but still continued to write about these places, what is it like to be so intimately connected to a place so emotionally and intellectually absorbed in a place but physically separated and how that has influenced your writing.

I found it very difficult to accept that I was in exile there, very difficult, especially the biggest one, the second one, which was imposed on me and was actually a life or death escape. If you want, I think I carried that feeling of belonging so deeply with me that one of the biggest fears I had when I was in exile was that I might be exiled because they had declared me wanted for life or death as a dictator. I was actually setting up consulates to hunt down the opposition, but the way I found peace and this is a self-revelation was that I started looking for a place where I would be buried if I went outside.

My fear was not that they would kill me outside, but that I would have some of my family or some well-meaning friends recover my body while the dictator was there, that's how rational you can be that way. He was at peace with myself. Say well, don't get my body back if that character is still in charge. I don't want him to trample all over my corpse. I'm still laughing at myself, so look at you, instead of buying more wigs for these guys, you're paying God the money, but that's exactly what I did, it's part and parcel of one.

Composition The socio-political changes in your countries in Turkey, for example, still affect your writing style as much as they used to when you started writing. It is also related to the previous question. Isn't it exile? Sometimes self-imposed exile. Can we have multiple homes? multiple home countries can be completely disconnected from our home countries, which I don't think is possible, quite the opposite, maybe you even follow it more closely when you're abroad, you worry about every detail, so which is a very, very fragmented existence. in a way you're always a little bit insider and outsider, which might be a good position for the arts for the art of storytelling because you're insider enough to feel attached to a lot of places, but maybe you have a little bit of cognitive distance. .

Just a little bit of distance maybe to see things from a different perspective, but if it's a good position for art, I think it's a very lonely place for the artist, you know you're always between them and I and I carry that feeling. To be honest, the number of people around the world who have started to feel like they are in some kind of exile, you know that number is increasing, more and more people have started to care about their homeland, you know they can. I don't recognize the changes that are happening even when they live in those countries, so it happens to me a lot when I give talks, there are people you know in the audience and they say I come from - Zoila, I come from Brazil.

I can't recognize my country either, you know, we all wonder what happened to my sweet country. I was wondering how you think colonial mentality has had an impact within our culture and what possible changes you think we could bring to ourselves as a people. from different countries that live, you know, in Europe or in countries that are not our countries to improve society in the future, culture is a powerful weapon, I know, but at the same time culture can be very, very weak against to some really difficult situations in Nigeria I use the expression or endows descent into an abyss of inhumanity and I was talking about an astronomical increase in kidnapping, ransom in rape, in pedophilia, in ritual, in murder, sex trafficking , we wonder what happened to our humanity and what is the solution that these girls were sold into prostitution actually put under some kind of superstitious chain with the fear that if they broke the terms of slavery terrible things would happen to them and their family and they believed it because they come from a superstitious culture, but the same culture is now being used to take that fear away from them.

You have someone like the Benin mentioned above, for example, who first uttered that curse, you know, with the Assembly of Priests and Chiefs, now the curse on all those who traffic to continue trafficking, you know? its own people in sexual slavery but one should not depend too much on the power of culture culture enlightens soothes entertains sustains but at the same time there are negative aspects of culture that simply become an additional burden even outside your own environment simply to move forward I think that today the main confrontations we are experiencing take place in the field of culture.

We're so obsessed with data, you know, measurable quantitative data, but there are things that matter so much that they can't be measured as easily and yet they are extremely important, so, as you know, there were all these predictions about a crash of civilizations, mainly between the Western world and Islam, that is not what we are experiencing, but I think what we are experiencing is more than a clash between civilizations within nation-states within Our societies were experiencing cultural fractures, almost battles cultural, so there is a lot of tension in that field about identity, belonging, who we are, how we raise our children, but at the same time, of course, as writers, we also believe in the transformative power of culture when societies They are deeply polarized, the only people who benefit from that are populist demagogues, so how do we find a way to go beyond our chambers of equality, beyond our comfort zones?

I think that's also possible in culture, so it's been that way. It's a pleasure, like I said, I thought I was trying something new and I hope this type of communication can continue all day. Why can't this game really fix something as monumentally horrible as slavery? I think I'm doing it naturally and we. Connect with our collective anger most of the time. What did poetry do for you? Are you OK.