De Klerk, Mandela pre-election debate rebroadcast, 14 April 2019

but a very good afternoon to you and a warm welcome to SAT Dana on this day 25 years ago for President Nelson Mandela and former President FW de Klerk on what the

debate

was like before South Africa's first democratic

election

s. Today we bring that

debate

back to you and ask the journalists. theic Robinson, who was facilitating that discussion, Professor Suzanne Weston, director of research at the Marvin Wooby Institute and political analyst dr. so my daughter needs to unravel the conversation, share her ports and how far the country has come since April 14, 1994. Now remember that you can also be part of the discussion using the hashtag ABC 1994 debate, the question we ask you today. is how far African democracy has evolved since 1994 hashtag sabc 1994 debate so let's take a look at that discussion now in less than two weeks the South African nation will go to the polls for the first time truly united as a nation as a state President, it has been It is a privilege for me to lead the process that brought us to this historic moment, as I have been attended by leaders of many other parties, also Mr Mandela, yes, and I also pay tribute to them.

I promised when I took office to lead South Africa into a new era. I promised to end the separation. I promise to free mr. Nelson Mandela I promise a new constitution through the negotiation I promised and free and fair

election

s in which all South Africans can participate with the same vote. I promise justice for all. I have kept that promise and this has brought us to a new beginning over the years. of apartheid are over a new beginning awaits a new South Africa your vote will decide whether that new beginning is good or bad it will be a good new beginning if the election result achieves a balance of power between the two main contenders the National Party and the ANC, if any party gets too much power it will be a bad start, also for all South Africans, our people who are going to vote have a choice whether it will be a good start or a bad start for the electorate.

South Africa is deeply concerned about a number of issues that time only allows me to address briefly; I hope you are at the time of the questions; We can get back to it. All people are worried about their jobs, about their prosperity, they are worried, deeply worried about social services and the lack of them and they are worried about violence. If you vote for the new National Party, you will allow me to continue with my task of bringing conciliation, reconciliation and, therefore, peace and prosperity for our country and all its people. I look forward to cooperating, thank you sir.

Sekulow Mr. Mandela, you now have the opportunity of three minutes for an opening statement, dear South Africans, I am honored to appear here tonight on the eve of a historic election in which many South Africans will reclaim their hopes for a better life. I feel honored. representing the work and struggle of so many people who made democracy a reality in our country is the good work that inspired me every day during those 27 years of my present life it is that good work that inspires me tonight I will resist the temptation to kill with issues that are not important there is a lot at stake in this election and I must take this opportunity to lay out very clearly the differences between us in our approach to the major national problems facing this country, those of you who are watching this discussion.

At home they expect us to exercise effective leadership worthy of the contradiction and sacrifices you have made just to bring about a small improvement in your own families in the difficult situation in which we live, the African National Congress has proposed a comprehensive solution and truly actionable action Thank you sir. Mandela we should leave it there now thank you now questions from our panel the two parties have agreed on a format in which the answers and questions will be strictly subject to the time a candidate has two minutes to answer a question from a panel that his opponent will have two minutes to respond each one then will have a minute to make more statements we start with Tim grumpy says asking the first question to mr. de Klerk Tim o Thanks Frick asks mr. de Klerk mr.

De Klerk's violence, both political and criminal, represents a number one threat to the elections and in recent years has continued unabated and the government is apparently incapable of dealing with it with that kind of record as a still sitting president what guarantees? to the electorate tonight that the violence will not get completely out of control and will therefore be complicit in the upcoming elections. Thanks for the question. Tim, let me start by saying that I disagree with the analysis that the government is not addressing this effectively. Yes, there is too much violence. but the government has taken great measures to solve it.

In Kwazulu-Natal there is a state of emergency in the other hotspot in South Africa, the PWV zone, but specifically Johannesburg and its surrounding areas. Eleven districts have been declared unrest zones. We have increased the police force by almost 75,000 to around one hundred thousand the government is taking all possible measures but their task has been made very difficult due to, among others, our main opponent, the ANC, demonizing the police force by drive a wedge between communities and For the police force, our task has become extremely difficult due to the continued existence and activities of the vigilantes and the activities of ANC supporters as well.

I said that Yael is with her and that every eight extracts from the Goldstone reports show that the violence in all eight cases and they were serious cases in all cases was attributed to ANC supporters and Encarta supporters fighting each other, which which is not an easy problem to solve, the government has fulfilled its duty in that sense. If we look to the future, I believe that the elections will lay the foundations for real reconciliation in South Africa. The electoral fight will be over, it will be clear who the winners are. , what are the strong parties and in a government of national unity our focus will be to hold the hand of all those who serve with us and together to continue to deal with the problem of the Bible.

Thank you mr. speaker mr. Mandela, his response in two minutes. Hello, play on this question on the basis that it is the leadership's duty to Porter before the public a total picture. Any leader who is simply promoting the point of view of her political party is not a leader who is going to help her get Africa out of this mess and what I find unacceptable is that the president misses Mr. Goldstone because if you look at his report, the police are deeply involved in this violence, you have one of the senior officers, Wood has been suspended from duty precisely because there are serious accusations against him of arms trafficking and working with killers to murder . innocent people.

I have discussed these issues with Mr. Takeda Kirk individually and confidentially provided her with evidence of his police activities. There's one thing he doesn't want to know. There is one thing that it covers very, very comfortably and that is the participation of senior police officials. In this violence, the truth is that they got a crazy image of the employee saying thank you, thank you, ladies and gentlemen, rebuttal from you, sir. Secretary, yes, the fact of the matter is that the Goldstone Commission was a government initiative and I have consistently said that if there is any evidence of any involvement of any member of the security forces in promoting violence, I am in favor of that are involved. in acts of violence and political, then the Goldstone Commission and the Goldstone Commission must be informed when it submitted its report.

I acted immediately. Can the ANC say the same regarding people who have been implicated by the Goldstone Commission? They are at the top of the list. We have taken and will continue to take firm action on ANC candidate lists if there is any evidence. Finally, the Goldstone report in this case refers to a small group of people, it does not refer to the entire police force and Judge Goldstone went out of his way to emphasize that it is not the police as such that are involved. Thank you detective mr. Mandela, a final response from you in a minute.

Well, okay, sir. de Klerk is not actually Putin mr. Goldstone because of that report, while he accepts that there are many police officers who were in good health, but then they released serious charges against a high ranking police officer and I do not accept the explanation that has been given by a state president here, he has a lot to explain what tani has done. less and more sincere in presenting the facts to the public. I'm afraid there is no time, there is no time left to give further explanations on that particular topic. Now I invite the fair Hoffa G of ABC radio to ask her question to Mr.

Mandela good evening mr. Mandela, everywhere he has gone during his election campaign, has promised and people have demanded jobs, houses and peace, but seven million people have no jobs, three million have no homes and almost 300 people have died in political and criminal violence. Only in this month he has us. It has been an election campaign of empty promises, not at all, we have a plan to build a better life for everyone, certificate and a better life means housing choice, free university education, hospital services, we believe that it is our task to carry out the current budget of the South Africa's budget has 126 years of unrest last year, the National Party government paid 10 million reais for weapons, weapons and drugs and only 2 million less for houses.

We are going to reorganize the budget so that we can address the basic needs of the masses of For the smallest people, we have a very clear plan that has been discussed not only with members of the liberation movement but also with government departments, companies, big academics, state corporations, all of which consider his plan reasonable and support it. That's why we say that our plan is to make mr. de Klerk method, mr. de Klerk his answer in two minutes the National Party and the ANC have been promising more or less the same thing as we also promised houses, we also promised better education, better health facilities and more jobs, the really tasty thing is who has a plan that can achieve it and I say that the National Party has a plan that can work because we can only achieve it if we have dynamic economic growth and we can only have dynamic economic growth if we get investments and we will only get investments and new factories and greater economic activity if we follow economic policies that they are in tune with our politics because our politics is in tune with the economic policies that have been successful around the world the politics of the ANC is plagued by what failed is still plagued by clinging to nationalization you will not get investment As long as that is the If the ANC continues to talk about stronger government intervention and more centralized control, those economic policies will fail to generate the wealth we need.

The ANC plan is going to cost much more than they indicate. An independent investigation conducted during the first year of implementing that plan will cost $70 billion in error. That $70 billion in error is just a little bit less than the state's total personal income tax revenue, which means taxpayers' income tax will double if we raise the $70 billion and double the tax on cigarettes, beer and gasoline, is not affordable and therefore cannot be saved from the defense budget, mr. Mandela is adding 12,000 new recruits to the defense forces. The defense budget will increase and not deplete, so we will have to create confusion, which is the only way the clock demands that I stop you there, mr.

Mandela you can answer in a minute this is the answer of a man who is not used to meeting the basic needs of the majority of the population whose government is committed to a small minority he is the Lamb to whom we have to dedicate so many resources to place whose Worries don't help, ladies and gentlemen Hartigan, I ask you to give mr. Mandela an opportunity that we have agreed on there will be no interjections Thank you sir. Mandela's career, sir, that is the reason why mr. he states he has consulted some unspecified people to conduct a study again, i say mr. de Klerk is not at all sincere in analyzing national issues.

We have made a plan. We have distributed it to everyone, including government officials. Where is the plan? Mr. de Klerk you have a minute thank you thank you ladies and gentlemen mr. Mandela, our plan is absolutely on the table and has been accepted by the National Housing Forum. It was basically prevented by the ANC and the organizations supported by the ANC, they did not want the plan to come true. We have a plan that will attract those billions of dollars from the private sector, we have a good housing plan on the table that will achieve all those results.

I care about all South Africans regardless of race or color but let me tell you sir. Mandela, my comments were not the comments of aman that is disingenuous, they were the comments of someone with experience from someone who sat in the cabinet and worked on budgets since 1978 and who knows how the state economy works and they don't make anything easier. It was not apartheid, we abolished apartheid, we made the country free, ladies and gentlemen, please give another one. I assure you that when you share responsibility in that government of national unity you will realize that in the last four years we have already cut the budget, thank you, telephone.

Thank you, sir. de Klerk except if he comes in our political correspondent now has the opportunity to ask mr. de Klerk thank you for that mr. De Klerk you said before that the elections will determine which is the strongest party now, if that is not the National Party, within two weeks you will be the former state president of South Africa and, in fact, that will be a direct consequence of the process. that you yourself launched four years ago but of the many consequences that will be taken into account in that process, South Africa today is one of the most violent places in the world;

You have accused your political adversaries of bringing an obsolete ideology to the government, that is, communism itself. As you stand today with these prospects before you, are you happy with the way things have turned out for your process that you put in place and everything that was in it, in fact, will you now take on a subordinate role if it turns out that in that government . Thanks Lester, let me start by saying that the National Party has become the most representative non-racial party in the South. In Africa we are growing day by day and we are going to get a dramatic result, so don't be too sure about the assumptions you make, but if the ANC turns out to be the party with the largest share of votes, first of all I will be very close to them Secondly, I will become executive vice president not at the behest of the ANC but in terms of the constitution and I will proudly represent in that government of national unity millions and millions of moderate South Africans and I will put their case forward and I will look after their interests and cooperate with the other parties because that is what the government of national unity is about, that we must overcome our political differences and address the challenges that we face in this country, address the needs of all our people, it is in that spirit that I say yes, I am happy The way it turned out, there was no alternative for South Africa, we were on the path to full confrontation, which would have made Niall eat up everything that has been built in this country.

We have negotiated a well-balanced Constitution with checks and balances. balances the power of politicians is effectively limited there will be no form of suppression the courts will be independent we have a good bill of rights in that Constitution they will be the distribution of power, it will be devolution, it will be federalism. Yes, I am happy with what we achieved and I am confident in the future, sir. Mandela you sit back, it is a cause of great concern when those who claim to have had the experience make vague, dreamy caves that have no basis. I must say that the African National Congress is an organization with over 80 years building national unity in this country thank you thank you there is no organization in this country as divisive as my friend's so-called new National Party on the left is actually promoting racial hatred I await you, please, ladies and gentlemen, please, I hope to be able to demonstrate now how you are trying to turn the colored community against the African people through slogans that are totally unfounded and where the independent Electoral Commission condemned the National Party for promoting incendiary and racist attitudes in the community that is the so-called new National Party That is the false claim of building unity that my friend makes.

Total rejection of our mr. de Klerk has one minute to respond. I would like to start by telling mr. Mandela, that the support base of the National Party among the so-called colors is a spontaneous, warm and very strong support base. We have shown in our relationship within the party that reconciliation can work. I did not have to intervene as a leader to appoint a person of color. an important position in the Western Cape as Mr Mandela had to do because his own supporters did not elect any. We have a good relationship and the colored people are our people, my people, the South Africans, they are wonderful people and I totally reject the accusation that the National Party is racist.

I don't have 150,000. run funds against me in the National Party for intimidation, as the ANC has now also stated that time demands that we stop a final refutation of yourself is a document, the fanfare of misinformed providers is filled with the most racist accusations scandalous and scandalous where they say that this record is No, the African National Congress has killed the colored, kills the boo. I challenge the lord. de Klerk Apple announced a less than candid statement last night Randy knew you were coming to this debate, of course we will be back with more information on that debate, but remember we are asking you this question: how far is the South ?

Africa's democracy has evolved since 1994 send us your comments using the hashtag sabc 1994 debate and remember that if you missed any part of the debate you can watch it again on the ABC News YouTube channel, don't go away, we are explorers, we have always had a curiosity infinite. always looking for answers for new frontiers for new stories because that's what we are, from scripts to screen, from screams to taking you on a journey, radio producers, screenwriters, on-air presenters, news reporters, sports analysts, We spend late into the night creating captivating stories and earlier. tomorrows keeping you informed, educated and entertained for us it's not a job it's a calling we do this and more because you do your part it's ABC TV licenses made possible thanks to you welcome back we're reflecting back 25 years to this day and The historic debate between NASA's Mandela and former president FW de Klerk Africa Robinson were facilitating that discussion.

Let's get back to that, mr. Mandela, I hope you'll forgive me for being blunt, I think, and a lot of the kind of people who watch this show in countries other than South Africa, a lot of them will see the National Party as a party with the past that it has. He has not always been very good or very democratic, he has not always been non-violent in many ways, even within his own organization, you will see that he has made a series of great electoral promises that have greatly increased the expectations of the people in this country and They are going to ask frankly whether, under his presidency, South Africa will not follow the same path as many other countries in black Africa.

Could it borrow money, for example, on the scale that so many other countries have taken? Zimbabwe for example, how will you address this problem? Mandela South Africa is not a poor country, as I said, our budget this year is 126 million prayers. We are also going to reorganize the budget, restructure the Department's budget to avoid the waste of a party that we will be able to use the country's resources in a more efficient way and prevent the corruption that is so endemic at the national level from pleasing the ladies in general , the trains where most of the country's funds have gone have come to an end.

We have committed to guiding ourselves by trying to lead a lifestyle similar to those of the community we go to. I am going to suggest that my own salary if I am elected state president will be different from the national particle. who has paid a lot tried to pay large sums to the Director General when the poor when there are 5 million unemployed when there are 7 million homeless people we are not going to live like bigwigs my friend from the National Party can do that that is how that is what you know mr. de Klerk a response from mr.

De Klerk, can I say from the beginning that our deficit before we go into debt is too high? If we want to be in place and attract foreign investment and be assured of IMF support from the World Bank, we will have to continue in South Africa to maintain strict fiscal and financial discipline this is what the government has been doing by doing so and taking other measures We reduced the inflation rate to single digits and could soon be 7 percent. We reduced interest rates. All of our economic indicators are pointing in the right direction. I am very happy to know that in the national unity government I will have the support of Mr.

Mandela on being frugal with respect to government spending, but we must also be frugal across the board because right now it is the ANC's allied organizations that are once again damaging the South African economy with strikes in various disciplines and through strikes, Firstly, they are helping to create an atmosphere that is not conducive to the holding of free and fair elections, and secondly, they harm the economic interests of the country, so I am glad to know that you are committed to fiscal and financial discipline and that you do not You will have no difficulty with it. help me achieve this, but if you think you can say enough about politicians' pay to solve the economic challenges we have in South Africa, then you are in for a big surprise.

Thank you for his cooperation, mr. Mandela, can you mr. Clarke wasn't listening when I was the speaker. You may have gotten the point that I'm happy that you're going to cooperate with me if I say that a state president should pay a tax on his income, on his resources, on his pecs, that's what heads of state do. . to do throughout the western world not in South Africa we are also going to issue government bonds reconstruction surveys both in South Africa and abroad to raise the funds we need we are going to impose a third test that will be paid by all all of these go to help raise income for the country, but we are not going to live like bigwigs, the days of the gravy trains are cold, everyone should know that the A and she has promised lower taxes for everyone in her manifesto.

The bonds you raised also carry interest. with them and one of South Africa's biggest problems is that the fastest growing item in our budget has been the interest discharge, every loan that is taken must be repaid and who pays for it is the taxpayer and therefore we need in all areas ensure that we maintain fiscal discipline, which is the economic solution for the future. I have been listening very carefully to what Mr. Mandela has said and I am very glad that we are going to have a government of national unity because it is clear that our experience will be absolutely essential if we are to have a good government.

In fact, now we move on to the next question, John. Simpson again from the BBC foreign editor's question now to mr. To state another frank, if I may, in February 1990, at the end of your negotiations with the ANC, you assured white voters that they would have a role to play in the future political development of the country. Joe Slovo of the South African Communist Party of the ANC came out and said: "I think the Nationals gave in at the end of 1999, maybe before that you will not be part of the National Party or the national unity government.

Is it possible? Do you think the whites in South Africa then they will play the same role that they play in, say, Kenya or Zimbabwe, that is, they make the money and some of the money, but they have no role to play in the political process of the country the response is a frank, I know I am white but I am no longer the leader of a white party. I do not represent the interests of white people and my party has widespread support from all population groups, colours, creeds and races. , if my party is not the largest party in this election, it will definitely be in the next election and the whites within the National Party and many others who also support other parties like the PD do not consider themselves a small group of people who are going to sit in a corner divorcing South Africa and its problems and its people we are part of a South African nation color in the vocabulary of the National Party is no longer important what is important is what you believe in free enterprise we believe in good family values ​​we believe in real peace we believe in reconciliation we believe in Christian norms and standards and that is uniting all people across the old divisions of all population groups in our party and that is giving a boost to our party, which ensures that for those who believe in this value system that has proven effective throughout the world and is in tune with a successful part of the world, will become the dominant political factor, the ANC is a conglomerate that is going to be destroyed because I don't have a clear philosophy that I loved in the past, Mr.

Mandela replies, you have two minutes. It's pretty clear that we're dealing with someone who either doesn't know what they're talking about, if they do what you know, if they know what they're talking about, they don't care, first of all, it's a false statement. suggest that any individual started the negotiation process in February, everyone knows that negotiation is the result of the suffering or the strength of the people supported by the international community, it was themwho took to the streets called Oracle strikes, who were shot dead by their racist security police or the National Party put us in jail who turn our lives into a nightmare than those who the Fosters were thinking about these changes in this country that we have feared they missed it they declared and the natural party shouting without wanting to appear with us in this process there are several examples that we can turn to, but we are happy, I am happy that we are working together.

I met him three times in prison, we agreed to work together and that is what I am committed to despite all the differences we have mr. Spectacular rebuttal in one minute, the National Party changed its policy to its current policy three and a half years before Mr. Mandela was released in 1986 and secondly Mr. Mandela cannot deceive with these accusations the families of the victims of the murders with necklaces that we received from supporters of his organization, the people in the townships who are repressed and intimidated by the use of HD, they know that they are repressing The people whose houses have been burned know who the culprits are and the parents of the children whose lives have been ruined by the misuse of education by the ANC know who caused their children's misery Mandela his election aims to ensure a better life for our people, that is what the african national congress is focusing on mr. de Klerk is alarmed because he is the leader of a party that still maintains a party today; he is spending three times as much on education for a white child as he does for a black child.

Which is the reason? What is the reason if apartheid is dead? not builthousing for applicants for more than ten years what is the reason for this discrimination I cannot vote there are five million unemployed people sir. Mandela regarding what he needs to finish, unfortunately we must leave it there and let me point out to our audience that, of course, he is applauding and egging on his leaders and that he is also taking his time. May I ask our list of Inter political correspondents to ask mr. Mandela Thank you sir. Mandela, the freedom party's decision in court to stay out of the elections, the Zulu kings calling for an independent kingdom and the associated tensions and violence arising from the situation seemed to be problems that will not go away anytime soon, in fact, this country could end a secessionist fight waged from quasi Rome if when you are in power, how do you plan to address this issue?

I have kept a constant dollar with the Inc attitude of the body and the Majesty of it, this little trick I attach a lot to. of importance for peaceful solutions to problems and I think it has now been shown that that is a very powerful level. I am going to continue talking to the Inca, the Freedom Party, with the monarch alone after the situation that is occurring now in Kwazulu. -natal, where there is no free political activity in many areas of the country where people are dying, but Scholz has forced us to link political initiatives and security measures, we regret this because we would like to have to give an emphasis to concentrate on the peaceful mission that we are doing now we will do it after February 27 we will have the formidable resources to be able to guarantee that we reinforce our political initiatives as a government that exercises state power.

I hope he succeeds mr. De Klerk, he has a few minutes to respond to this question. There has been very good cooperation lately between the government, the National Party government and the ANC, and specifically between the two of us. I appreciate you being critical before. I felt that the ANC has not done enough regarding Encarta, but that is what we did in the past in the Kruger National Park, it was an important meeting, we made certain proposals, the ANC also presented constructive proposals in kata and the Zulu King He also presented specific proposals and If you analyze the proposals of the three parties, it really seems that there is a framework for consensus and agreement.

Then we agreed regarding the monarchy to form a working group, that working group has reported on its principles and I think it is a good report. I can live with that. I have some criticisms, but I can basically live with it and I would like to thank all those who made their contributions, so I think the Zulu mana issue can really be addressed within the framework of the transitional Constitution and the principle. in a very dignified manner and we should not worry that that problem cannot be resolved in kata, in the words of the Chief Minister, boot elysium, is not a Zulu party.

My analysis is that Encarta has made significant mistakes by not participating. I have leaned. back from time to time making new suggestions on how to incorporate them together with the multi-party forum that we have coal Parliament changed the Constitution together and introduced five six fundamental changes that really accommodated the most powerful objections to the first version of December I. I am obliged to replace Mr de Klerk Sr. today. Mandela the last words on this subject we must also always value the statements made by mr. Jack about the Inkatha Freedom Party, which is his former ally. They use funny state funds to finance the murderous activities of Freedom Party cutter Mr. de Klerk admitted in July 1991 that they had given eight million of our money to in cut admitted that he had Ali admitted that he had been given two hundred and fifty thousand drugs to always evaluate his statement in the garden cotta in that context mr . de Klerk encountered the lord's sudden aggression.

Mandela on this strange issue, it's the only thing we've been cooperating well on. Can I just say that mr. Mandela refers to historical situations. I have stopped all covert actions and the current committee and Professor Khan have monitored and have now assured me that he is happy with the way all covert activities that took place without my knowledge have been carried out properly. put it under the table and it was over. Can I just say that as far as kata is concerned, we are close to each other because they also believe in free enterprise because they also believe in federalism.

It is a policy that exists among us, but this government does not finance murderous activities. Time is up for this topic, thank you ladies and gentlemen. I again invite Hoppity on the ABC radio series to pose the question to Mr. Decker Thanks Frick mr. State that many people believe that your government has not taken responsibility, it has been three years of third force accusations, no one has taken the blame, although you may have appointed several commissions, many billions of land have been lost again due to to corruption, no one is taking the blame. So how can we really ensure accountability in the future, especially under a government of national unity where there is no opposition watchdog?

The National Party government has already put in place the instruments to guarantee this accountability. We have strengthened the position of the Auditor General that we have created. To be more independent, we have appointed an Ombudsman and given him more powers beyond all those of the Commission we have established. We have built into the financial and administrative control system systems of absolute improvement to ensure that this is dealt with appropriately, but the majority of the corruption that you refer to took place in some of the countries of origin and if you look at the report you will find that the emphasis was, for example, on labora and quand beli; those two countries were led by Chief Minister Master DK and the Chief Minister for much longer are now on the ANC candidate list, knowing full well that such corruption took place under his administration.

I am against corruption and I have a proud record, this government has a proud record of pursuing with absolute courage every accusation of corruption and whenever someone was found guilty, firm measures are taken with the same responsibility of the government when there was negligence or when There is knowledge and in none of these cases, when any member of the government is accused of negligence or having knowledge of the corruption that was discovered by Mr. Mandela, his response: there is no transparency or accountability to the extent that the national particle when we organized a commission of inquiry into allegations of human rights violations, published our report, took confidence in South Africa, appointed a commission of general theory of state to investigate the activities of What he did fired certain officers.

Then I asked him to give me that report because I told him that that report had confirmation of the existence of the working group. I have not received that report from him, even now I am the leader. or the most important political voice in this country I started the negotiations when I was in jail I discussed it with him I discussed it with Kobe Koozie quite apart from the contribution of the muscles of the people but he has not given me the reason for that report because he has concrete evidence of the existence of the mascot force, which is why there is no transparency in the statement made by Mr.

De Klerk is doing less than the conduct of the country, which is the real opportunity for a rebuttal from Mr. Acharya, one minute, the Minister could see and I explained to him. I think now three times the situation regarding this so-called Stein report and I'm not really going to do it. I just have a minute. It was not a report of that nature. but I took action there was transparency regarding the report of the commission on the detention camps but if the ANC acted against them no, once again the list of candidates is headed by the same people who have been implicated by that Commission or now perhaps ministerial The candidates in the national unity government have been implicated by that Commission, the ANC should take action against its supporters who claim to be guilty of atrocities or any unacceptable behaviour, that is what we are constantly doing, opportunity for a final response, mr.

Mandela have completely evaded my question. I'm saying that if that report was innocent, he would have published it, he would have given it to me. I'm his button. We are trying to solve these problems together. We are trying to promote neutral trust so that he If the two of us and other actors can persuade the national unity government to generate this mutual trust to continue the task of nation building, he has not given me that report, why? We must leave the topic there and now for the final question. from my colleague also from Radio Metro to Modi says and goes to Mr.

Mandela Thank you sir. Mandela, we have been listening to the promises of the ANC, the National Party, tonight the ordinary man and woman on the street are seeing this and they are listening, they want to know if they will feel safe on the streets after the unity government national is over. have been elected they want to know if they will be beneficiaries or if there will be delivery of Social Services given the strikes that have been taking place especially in the homeland they want to know if public violence and criminal violence are going to be completely eradicated in South Africa above they want to know if any Maybe there will be racial reconciliation in this country the African National Congress is committed to national reconciliation international nation building there is no organization in this country that has issued a political statement to compare with the Freedom Charter which is the most devastating attack on all forms of racism, we have presented a clear program to guarantee a better life, build houses, offer employment, provide free and quality education, but we must remember that violence is not caused by those who carry a weapon, those who remain are also caused Because of poverty, illiteracy, hunger, all these evils of one party, we are going to address these problems and restructure the police force so that it can be a community police force, sir.

Descartes I and the National Party share the deep concern of all our people about violence and within the government of national unity that will no longer have any problem of legitimacy. I think we will be able to address it first by restructuring and improving the economy if our If this policy is followed, then we will be successful in that unemployment is one of the problems of crime and violence, the so-called lost generation, the millions of young South Africans, mostly blacks, who are not properly trained and who left school early, need to be tested and on a previous occasion mr.

Mandela and I have already discussed that in the national unity government we will have to address this problem in an imaginative way. Yes, I believe that through economic growth by improving social conditions which can then be afforded because there is economic growth, we can improve the quality of life of our people we have already begun to improve relations between the police and the community and I am totally in favor of community policing and the new Constitution provides for that. I hope the elections will also lead to an end to the demonization of our police force, we only have one police force in South Africa, a third of them are at the moment engaged almost full time inprevent, combat or manage political unrest and political violence, hopefully when the elections are over, those police officers and women will also be able to focus once again on crime prevention and on costing criminals and holding them accountable.

I really believe that the elections and the desert until the end of this violent period I will stop them there as an attack, we are doing very well. on time you two are very disciplined. Now I will give you each a minute and a half to respond, sir. Mandela there are changes between mr. I declared and must not hide an important fact about our country. I think we are a shining example for the whole world of people coming from different racial groups who have a common allegiance and a common law for their common country, which is the dominant issue we are on.

I'm going to fight these issues, but we have men and women in this country who have a point while honoring the ideals of freedom and democracy in this country, and despite my criticism, obviously the employee says that you are one of those I trust in that job. to face together the problems of this country and with part of that thank you for those kind words sir. Mandela. I can also testify that on important issues like nation-building we are discovering that it is possible to work together. Can I say that we will not have peace until we have real reconciliation?

This election is about the future, it is not. about the past and until we bury the bitterness of the past until we can never forget the injustice but it can be forgiven and we need forgiveness we need reconciliation we need to put our hands in each other's hands and all population groups must say that we need each other Others of us have a common destiny, let's work together and that is why I am so pleased that we have agreed on a government of national unity because that is the instrument we need to lead this country towards that nation that will make us all proud.

Africans and that will ensure that we as a country move forward together, so that in the conversation that took place exactly 25 years ago in the Johannesburg Civic Center many issues were raised, then of course we will discuss them with the facilitator that you have seen on scene there free Robinson and will speak with two political analysts, as well as Professor Suzanne Weston and Dr. Samet Fe Guinea, the question we ask you is to what extent has democracy evolved in South Africa since 1994, send us your comments using the hashtag ABC 1994 debate. The hashtag is ABC 1994 debate and we're just going to bring you back to the final part of that conversation where they give the final arguments, so please don't go, it's not. that part is in a father, but there are many service delivery problems that harbor the illegal proliferation of structures, mr.

Burhan they are now considering moving to San Tan since you submitted a memorandum you are not going when they were waiting for tires inside Alexandre they stayed silent because now we are going well they gave reports that is why they are being a problem that we feel Really undermined and disrespected by not showing up to listen to our previous, so a tendency has grown to serve only the so-called white monopoly capital. He has forgotten about black communities. The development must have been on either side because we are equal times two. but the people here pay us a service, we deserve it, welcome back, what you are seeing today and the question we ask you as we repeat that important discussion just before the historic 1994 elections here in South Africa shows how far the South African democracy since 1994, so send us your comments using the hashtag sabc 1994 debate and remember if you missed any part of this debate, you can watch it again on the ABC News YouTube channel, so let's now go to the end of that discussion in which former president FW de Klerk and Nelson Mandela are giving their closing arguments comes at the end of the question and answer session.

Now I will ask each of you to have a final closing statement and we have some time. I'll give you four minutes. I told you that an official has agreed that you will go first. Having reached the end of this debate, I would like to appeal to all voters who have not yet decided who to vote for in the first place, to seriously consider their position. We need a balance of power. There is only one party that can form that balance of power against the ANC, which is a strong party with broad support. They are the favorites and that is the national power.

It is a new National Party despite what has been said. It is a party that has renewed itself from within It was an internal process We have cleaned ourselves from within We have admitted that our past policies led to injustice We have apologized for that and we say that we have a job to do We also want to rectify those of the judges this new national party is a growing part this new national party is fighting to become the largest party not because of jobs for us but because we believe in the values ​​that we stand for we believe in strong family values ​​we believe that parents should remain parents and that children should not deal with parents and adults as is happening in our country right now we believe in Christian norms and standards we believe in free enterprise we believe in universal human rights and feel that the bill of rights should be empowering ourselves we believe in religious freedom and we care about the needs of our people we know that many people are suffering we must accept the challenge to fight hunger fight poverty to ensure that more and more jobs are created to build homes for the homeless improve the quality of the education to bring primary health care closer to the people we have accepted it as a party and we will work together with all those who also defend that and in peace we are committed to peace our hands are clean the National Party none of the supporters of the National Party are involved in violence, we are a peaceful party and everyone who knows our party can testify about it and if one of our party members steps out of line, we discipline them.

The National Party believes in the future of this country. and all its people we see our country on the threshold of a wonderful and prosperous new era all of Africa wants us to succeed all of Africa is striving for a successful conclusion of the process in South Africa because Africa needs us the international community wants us to succeed because it They realize that South Africa has a vital role to play not only in Africa but also globally. The whole world is waiting for us to succeed because what we have embarked on in South Africa, all leaders from all parties together have not done. succeeded in many countries in other places there is a way and that way is real tolerance and real commitment to peace and adherence to viable policies that have been successful in other places that is the way and that is the way of the new Party National for which I ask for the support of all voters, thank you sir.

Mandela's final statement, first from you, sir, before moving on to my statement. I would like to know what Mr. de Klerk, who was disciplined when eight million taxpayers' money was handed over during the cutters' freedom party in July 1991. who was disciplined, his vague statements are counterproductive because they lead to the conclusion that the Mr. De Klerk is less friendly when making important statements on national issues and I want to say that several points of view have been expressed here. I wanted to assure you that on April 27th you will make your choice and I have no doubt what the choice will be if you want the same problems to continue in the next five years massive unemployment limited opportunities continuation of racial division Oh, if you want that at the beginning of a new era there is hope for peace and security where everyone's basic means had been taken care of here, we are saying that A and C have the most convincing plan to deal with this situation, in fact, mr. de Klerk when we ask him about his comprehensive plan to deal with this, basically he can only tell us or at some point does it involve giving an announcement to the house afourá there is no evidence of the situation I have never seen, he has never given it to me. with him very often where is his panel closing statement first, sir, before moving on to my statement.

I would have liked to know from the city clerk who was disciplined when 8 million of taxpayers' money was given during the cutter freedom party that took place in July 1991. who was disciplined his vague statements are counterproductive because they lead him to the conclusion that mr. De Klerk is less friendly when it comes to making important statements on national issues, but I want to say that several points of view have been expressed here. I wanted to assure you that on April 27th they will make their choice and find out what it is. The choice will be whether they want the same problems to continue in the next five years massive unemployment limited opportunities continuation of racial division Oh, if they want at the beginning of a new era there to be hope for peace and security where everyone's basic means had been taken care of Here, we are saying that A and C have the most convincing plan to deal with this situation, in fact, Mr. de Klerk when we ask him for a comprehensive plan to deal with this, he can basically only tell us or some tournament will be awarded to the housing, there is no evidence of the situation.

I've never seen it, he's never given it to me. with him very frequently where there is a play with whom it was discussed but we are saying, let us work together please, please let us be together for reconciliation and nation building. I am proud to hold your hand so that we act not as we are together. to add division and suspicion I have traveled all over this country I have spoken to thousands of people I know they deserve a better life they deserve a better future and the only organization I ask you to vote for is the African National Congress if you vote for the African National Congress you You are voting for an organization that has more than eight years of experience in nation building.

It is an organization that will never issue a document of this nature that today in 1994 says Moosa, why are you not with your people? You with the Africans are the most divisive part in this country if you want national unity, that is the organization. I lived the African natural common. Thank you, mr. Mandela, we must leave it thank you, thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thank you. I thank you both for the spirit of this debate and with this we come to the end of this historic broadcast from the Johannesburg Civic Theater Complex. We wish you good night.

That's a historic conversation that took place exactly 25 years ago, and as you saw, a veteran, Acropolis journalist was facilitating that conversation. Professor Suzanne Weston, who works at the Boober Institute and is research director, is also with us in the studio, political analyst dr. Samet Effie Gainey joins this conversation, so I think all of us feel like we've gone back in time and fear. I'm curious if there is a silver lining to 2020, how do you feel about the conversations that took place? So what promises were made and how do you see the conversation now? I'll get to that in a moment, but can I just say this?

The broadcast we have seen was apparently broadcast to 800 million people in the world and was syndicated. On so many television stations around the world they told me that 30 seconds before we started, so you can imagine the pressure, but still, listening to that debate again, I think it's very distressing to think that all those topics that we heard a few years ago 25 years We are still here today and that's it. Do you think it's because the landscape hasn't changed much or is it because the challenges remain the same? The challenge also lies in the leaders we have had.

You know, the part about the years lost online that sir. Amazo himself addressed this, don't boo anyone, actually yes, but yes, the unfortunate thing is that we have not made progress and none of those parties to the extent that they actually promised or believed that it would be possible to do so. so it's unfortunate, dad, for you, most of those problems that kept coming up over and over again, which ones stand out, like saying we haven't moved on as a country, well, all the basic things are better, but no as it should. be poverty lack of jobs corruption on display also no cohesion I think race relations are even worse than they were in 1994 so unfortunately I'm a little pessimistic about our illness this afternoon but I think we can make progress but then we need strong leadership from Master Ramapo so the unfortunate thing is to share that basically we in South Africa have reached a dead end in our democracy because we have reached a stage where we cannot go beyond the problems we have in the Constitution and we must change those things in the Constitution.

First of all, we all know that most people or many people say they love virtually mr. poppy, but not for the ANC, but you can't dothat because unfortunately that is not possible in the Constitution as it is written now, so that must change so that we can call on the President himself to take responsibility and say that you must do what you promised and if not We will not do it, we will expel him, but We can't because we can't vote for him. It is a very interesting place. Direct the professor somewhere because I wonder, just looking back, what some would call the legacy of Mandela and South Africans today.

Do you see him as the man, the leader? Do they separate you from the party and how important is it for us, 25 years later, to frame that particular discussion? Yes, it is a historical moment that we have just revisited here and that was phenomenal and given the tensions. the emergence of war situations that we have had there, given the 46 years of an immoral and unethical apartheid government that Africa experienced, the positive, real and tangible possibilities arose at that stage. Central South Africa would ascend to violence before we even got elections. I think the situation we find ourselves in today is immensely different.

In retrospect, we tend to forget how volatile and fragile things were at the time when history was a party, the old so-called new National Party, and De Klerk was fascinating to watch with It was fascinating to watch us in reviewing the reinvented new Party National then and at that time, and that was a party after 46 years in government, handing over power recognizing that reconciliation is needed, had been making that old new national party. Party for a few years by then, but this was an immensely different situation than the one we have today. Yes, many of the problems exist, but they are here now.

Dr. A fig was needed then and now corruption arose a lot and as the professor says, FW de Klerk strove to reinvent the National Party and its legacy and I want to talk about corruption and the reality of that government that came to power. The ANC government, how much could they have escaped the post-independence characters that African countries inherit? And I'm talking about the corrupt institutions, the rules, the valleys, the colonial and apartheid governments. In fact, let me start by saying again that this was a historic moment. not only for South Africa for the entire world because our struggle had been one of the most internationalized eduardo galeano says history never say goodbye simply say you later we are seeing enough things just to talk about your question the biggest problem for South Africans In period X, For both those in the liberation and those in the higher Tate system, we were hit by this notion of South African exceptionalism that made it impossible for society to learn from other post-colonial states to see how once our end is over Either you transform the system or you assimilate to the system and you start to imitate some of the tendencies of the system and that is what we have seen with corruption that instead of transforming the system, the individuals trapped in power saw access to power. and they begin to do exactly what we are going to focus on individuals who then become leaders because births are detected and not something bad.

She referred to former President Mandela saying that a leader who speaks only from the prism of his side is very problematic after taking it as a warning against absolute power corrupting the will to speak of a one-party state, but does Can post-independence African countries or leaders change their political culture? We have seen a variety of examples that are not all going the same way, but a significant portion have exactly repeated that we are a personality that has become more important than the party than the institution in a South African environment in its ironic twist. We were seeing Mandela as a messianic leader and we began to be what was expected of a leader of that nature and we began to put more faith in a leader rather than building the individual and civic agency.

At the moment I would say that in South Africa we have a very partisan environment where we do not have national interests, the common purpose each leader speaks for the party he speaks for on May 8 and most of the time you do not have the historical and visionary impact that you might have seen with post-independence. you know, leader, some of them have not written any errors to you, your accountants or many others, your hairdressers initially before some failed. Can I just add the story to what some of them said? Yes, that night, after that debate, we invited the leaders to come. to yes BCE on the 28th floor just to celebrate the occasion and so on to release some of the tension.

I waited at the door for mr. Mandela will arrive and mr. de Klerk indicated that he would not come, but mr. Mandela came. I met him at the door and took him to the elevator. On the way to the elevator there was an old lady at 10 at night already standing there with a polisher polishing the floor and while we talked. Sir. Mandela said that mr. Robinson just for a moment and approached that lady, it's lady, you are absolutely fantastic, it's wonderful to see people like you doing your job at 10 at night and doing it diligently, carry on, we are proud of you.

Now that indicates Mandela's personality and what he did for reconciliation in this country, but unfortunately I think beyond that, we haven't really created structures to build that reconciliation and carry it forward even to this day, so hit Tommy because One of the BBC journalists asked Nelson Mandela: How would you feel about all these big promises you are making if they fail and if you follow the path of other African countries or your neighbors? How would you feel about that failure? something he might have been aware of given the launch of the Mammoth that was in front of him, spinning completely around and being unequal, one of the most unequal societies in the world and giving fair opportunities to everyone, it's a very difficult situation, of course, You know that we are a unique country. and we have always had a unique and very divisive history, so he couldn't be expected to succeed alone, but we should have gone further than Mandela and unfortunately we didn't.

Mandela himself in 1997 asked church leaders to come. with some kind of solution for social cohesion in South Africa that never materialized because you know the moral regeneration movement was started and the president of that movement was at the time Vice President Jacob Zuma, so you wonder why it wasn't So. I didn't make it, but today, as we speak here, we don't have an institution that is something like a social cohesion arm of the department of hearts and culture that takes care of a simply better. Oh, when she's not on a committee, he takes care of it, but there's no great effort.

As for saying well, let's do this. I want to get down to the nitty-gritty details in a moment, but the professor poisons. I wonder how they see FW de Klerk, how they are dismissing and criticizing the ideological policies of the ANC in terms of how they intend to change the country obviously speaking against nationalism and all that, but it was clear that the intention was to create some kind of, should say, a better class for those who are marginalized by a capitalist class with date of birth, some would say I was simply saying what we have seen as black economic empowerment, indigenous business owners, etc., but how much of that could it have worked with art at the point we are at because there is and is being lamented a massive lack of infrastructure change?

Yes, I see that the budget and the sustainability of the changes and the financing capacity of different plans really take center stage in that debate and a lot of that could have been part of a debate today and are the ideological positions here, in some ways way, it would be a little richer if we declared to come here and say that that can't work if they had been so cleverly avoiding economic justice and at least sowing the seeds of a different kind of system there and see that, in fact, there was some value prophetic in some things that FW de Klerk said. there, but that in reality there is a complete bottom line that is lost when you consider the dire situation that South Africa had been plunged into during decades of misrule under the ANC I&C, I definitely think it could have done better in a draw 25 years later , but In fact, it is a profound structural malformation of society, a structural misalignment that occurred at that time in its children and that was perpetuated to the present.

Yes, in 25 years they should have done more and they should have been more concerted. Lee applied himself and should have secured something even in Nelson Mandela's days before accepting power in 1999 were very clear, as he lamented the fact that the Carterets were entering the ANC to make money in order to own and position themselves for business opportunities and in those early days the actions against that were not strong enough and that is why we also see that there is a country like the assembly, it says so many auras that they mention here that they try to reinvent themselves in many of these countries, they have opposite cycles of good government and bad government and they have almost always been some vision readers, so Never see me better than a body, but I just add to that to say that well, we must point the finger regarding Mr. idiot also because he emphasized so clearly in that debate how important it was that there was a government of national unity, but he himself then removed the National Party from that government and I think that was a big mistake.

It was only earlier this week that I spoke to a former cabinet minister of the National Party lamented the fact that they lifted it, saying it was a point where everything started to go wrong. I don't know if one should say you know up to that point, but at least that was a mistake for Surely they could have stayed longer than 1999 dr. oblivion, as one of the journalists asked, would he be surprised if he found himself out of this and how instrumental white people would be in the day-to-day political decisions of governance? How would you reflect on the comment that Frickles made and that question, but I also want to focus on the everyday problems that we have seen: visual discontent in the form of protests, we have been told, has reached a record number in this first quarter alone and it's all because We're heading into elections, so that agency you're talking about is because people feel like it doesn't exist and the only way to get the attention of the government and the politicians is to go and protest violently.

I think the problems we face are much more different and profound. South Africa has never had an honest and difficult conversation about where it is or where it was. There was only one hope that things would turn out well. Then we move on to building new institutions, the infrastructure of democracy, the Constitution, chapter nine, the institutions, the judiciary. and so on, we went on to put in some infrastructure, social infrastructure, but one thing that we have neglected and that has turned against us is the human agency, the person, whether you talk about education, what kind of person is going to prepare this education? from a family and renew today we have one of the world that demanded constitutions except that we do not confirm that we have some of the best systems of government that have become corrupt because we have not focused on the person or the individual. psychology collective and individual psychology and we have not even debated the issue that when talking about human rights there are rights but there are also responsibilities those who have property tend to emphasize first generation political and civic rights and those who have nothing tend to emphasize the socioeconomic transformation of second generation housing, but the only point I want to make is that what is surprising in that debate that has continued is how they declare, and perhaps their cohort of leaders are not aware of the fact that they were presiding over the most corrupt system altogether.

I know you won't be willing, yes, in fact, I want to get to the same point: here is the most successful socialist government, where the government intervened on behalf of white people and was successful in terms of fighting white power, white ISM, in terms of education, in terms of nationalizing once they are. in that position then he is arguing that we have less government, that the private sector controls these things, that we shouldn't even get involved, that kind of not understanding the same tools that they had used, that something fundamental was needed, something that was not normal, Conventionally, I was thinking of all the normal countries, but at that particular time a major intervention was needed to change the geography of appetite, unfortunately that never happened and we are where we are precisely because people looked and realized that no had changed a lot in terms of fundamental social aspects. -economic issues, one of the problems is, of course, that the president has the power, under the Constitution, to appoint so many people and that is why we have all these commissions on state capture and so on, so that is a fundamental problem that will have to be solved. do this and also just stick to this we have to see thisdebate in this very specific historical context this was but just before the 1994 elections these were essentially election campaigns and speeches hoping to help consolidate a very uncertain situation at one time and simultaneously trying to influence large proportions of still undecided voters and is that we see them catch based on all the issues they both had access to very good polling research at that time they knew approximately what the outcome of the election was going to be they knew exactly what the issues were and what voters thought about issues particulars and that is why we see them touch them one by one, plans of hope, jobs, yes, controlling the police professor's question is that part of the problem is that we are still repeating those conversations today, if we look at the first census after the apartheid, recorded around one and a half million households on a tour of former settlements in 2011, that figure was almost 2 million to date in 2017, or 5.4 million South Africans living in informal settlements.

Yes, for the electorate, I imagine they will say who will improve my lot and who will hold these politicians accountable for all those promises that were made in the most important question, because other people who do not benefit those who do. we don't exactly maintain them and there's a source in that context where we see so many additional protests and the point that the formal democracy that so many of our formal democratic institutions support in the Constitution are just not working as they should and that's why people you take to the streets complementary complementary forms of democracy to buy to make sure that those politicians actually have their voices heard and that people do well can you address that?

What would you suggest structurally? It's just me. It is a long-term solution. process that could possibly hold politicians more accountable, but has then become part of South African political culture. We embrace democracy and we have human rights, third generation human rights, but we don't take them as seriously as we should. because the Constitutional Court has inserted everything possible into this, I actually believe that the biggest problem facing South Africans is the deficit of honesty and courage. Where the hell have you seen a country with two capitals half the time you can't find a bag? on this side because they are flying on that side and other reasons there are no sensitivities instead of being bold around the world we know that small businesses are the ones that absorb the most people in terms of employment guess what in South Africa each sector is dominated by two or three players, whether it's mobile phones, mining, power supply, etc., it's counterintuitive, but since we're still frozen in that mold of saying: can we just try to accommodate each other?

In fact, we even compromise if there are properties, they say. Let's commit to poverty because poverty will continue to grow if we go all the way. These issues need decisive leadership and it takes an honest conversation where we say we may go through some challenges, some difficulties, but at some point there is a common purpose. there is unity there is prosperity but at this moment we are not addressing the fundamental issues that should be addressed what is failing us former president Mandela made a very profound comment when he said that you know that violence does not occur only through the barrel of the gun it is through through poverty it is through illiteracy it is through unemployment unemployment in 1994 was twenty, three percent and in 2018 that figure was twenty-seven point five percent, but there has also been exponential population growth, so , how do we weigh whether it is not a bad situation, it continues to worsen due to external factors beyond the political interventions that are on the table, the political world is free, well, I want, given the fractures in society and in political parties. if we will have that type of leadership that the professor talked about and that we should have in this country.

I think all parties are in very difficult positions right now because there is not a single person who is speaking very confidently from one mouth and is really doing very well with great respect, our president certainly brings hope and the people expect more from him, but to what extent will he be in a position to really do anything as ANC leader for me? the housing issue and other things that were increasing just to show you some of the counterintuitive approaches and policies that we've had, a CT and a band of focused policy programs, people come to the city because for a long time they could only get housing in the city.

They come from rural South Africa because opportunities are concentrated in the cities. People come from outside the country because there is hope for opportunities there and they gather in informal spaces in the fight for resources and that in itself. It's also one of the things that will make the housing issue a permanent goal because if you say I'm going to provide housing for how many people and when do you expect those numbers, etc., that's why you still have a permanent goal, but you don't we are having an honest and decent diagnosis of these problems there must be some kind of different way of addressing it yes, a decentralization where you start to say that you are literally developing some of the services, some of the programs in rural areas instead of all, if how Deng has doubled the population in a space of 10 years, imagine for a policymaker who has to adjust the budget by 6 percent, how are those objectives going to be met if he continues doubling them, were some of the conversations when the Chinese developed the coastal regions that said now everyone is pulling this way, let's put some of the nodal areas and put resources into them, so to me they are old steps that need to be taken, how bold can they get because both leaders promised a new era and we know how Freak was seeing. that there was optimism about President Rama Pasa entering the house, so obviously they are winging the electorate with the promise that a real dream will come true, but when you talk about free education, free higher education, how realistic are you?

What we are saying is that we have increased the escas budget by R70 billion, but ignoring the increases in GDP per capita and higher education institutions, ignoring the fact that there are other challenges, we are talking about the fact that there are a generational poverty. about the fact that there is poor transport infrastructure, there is not enough accommodation for students, I am just saying that it seems to be a lot of systemic promises, so when you say that you are offering the electorate this promise, how far are you going when you say that We are being bold , yes, you know, at this stage in South Africa today part of that boldness is to show that you have control and that you can run the state and control the state budgets and run Ronaldo's budgets by inching towards specific areas of development and she takes today exactly what Kerry said.

Mandela was referring to you, alluding to the fact that the budget has to be reorganized, remove this, remove that and that the state is a layer of bold leadership and that there are a dozen aggressive reform professors, and I am saying that in that conversation there was concern that you might have a capital flight that it will not be possible to attract FDI if you come with a bold or aggressive reform policy, now a strong leader must be able to point it out and that is such a clear way that instability will continue unless We have to achieve some radical forms of radical transformation in some parts of the economy, education, health, doing it in an economically sustainable way, and a bold leader has to be capable and can demonstrate that investment is not only possible in a conventional and easy way, but it is the friendly call for investors.

There are many ways, but it is understood that it is necessary to build that internal stability and it is through services channeling the national debate towards the correct location. The untransformed countries or nations must be developed nations, not only, but not really, because you want to have an inclusive economic contribution from all sectors. sectors of society it will always be the small elite that has assimilated the converts of the last days of the liberation ranks, hence the inequality. You can't do that if you also have a corrupt system, a patrimonial system, because it feeds the system what it should.

What will happen here investors will come if this policy is safe, even if there were difficult policies. Look at Botswana and many other countries where investors are flowing. The country has a participation in mining. It has been embarrassed by different things, but because the company can calculate and say, this is what We are going to see what we have seen in South Africa every 3 or 4 years. Policies change. Political uncertainty is Western. South Africa on basic education is said to be one of the top 15 spending countries per capita and yet our results are some of the West's in the world, meaning we are sending money not where it is supposed to be sent. , we can talk about systems.

You also mentioned why all these state companies are so powerful and control budgets of billions of billions and there is no control over that there must be some kind of system, the damn servant that our Constitution was written for Mandela and not for she. some of the others who followed him, as a result of that we assumed that the president would be wonderful, smart and honest, but to me it's not written somewhere in the system, that's where I say it's not just the institution, like I said. Before we have some of the best institutions if you take the governance policies that have been recommended everywhere in the world, but the character, the attributes of the people who occupy those positions, if you take a thief to run even a monastery, that thief will steal the wine and All I wanted to talk about social cohesion I also want to read some tweets that are coming in from our viewers.

Just some fool in Gulu said that after all is said and done, the hashtag promises before the 1994 elections have not been done. Education about unemployment changed a lot and there are still many more. We designed slogans to counteract the energy we had and let's see the next of the future billionaire who says incredible Hello 90 in

2019

I was still dealing with the same problems security crime unemployment poverty racism 25 years later. the following is from the Hunan booster, they are saying that if so many things haven't changed in the last five years, is there any hope of change? and this is Julio, who loses less than today's politicians for watching this and being ashamed of Rancic's courage, so the state has been affected by the social imbalance since then, the lawsuit and the world speak so that those who They stole stop and I think we have a last quote from belladonna that says that deception is life within society, we think that freedom will bring a better life, instead, most of the cost of living, a crime that is it shoots, it abounds, the unemployment service almost protests every time I can go on and on, so I want to talk about the same kind of things that everyone said, unfortunately, that there is no change and I want to ask if there will be changes in terms of social cohesion.

Nelson Mandela accuses FW de Klerk's National Party of being divisive in his election campaign, especially focusing on the colored community and FW de Klerk of course denies this saying that it is the AC that excludes development. With the colored community we were recently in Cape Town organizing an electoral debate there and what came to light is that there is some discontent on the part of the colored community because I feel that they have been left out of the achievements of democracy. I will listen to both the teacher and the doctor. Well, this is my passion. I think we as South Africans can come together.

We cannot allow the future to overtake us. You know, we must create that future. We ourselves are citizens of this country and we are fantastic. people and yes, we are sitting among all these people, I know them and we have dealt with each other and it is very pleasant to interact and work and where there is our open and free atmosphere and you know, the kind of human atmosphere, there are wonderful things in this. country, but we don't make an effort to work for the future of this country, you feel that where we are in terms of social cohesion is much worse than where we started, why did you think I wouldn't say it's much worse, but it certainly is Yes, no I think it has improved to the extent that we should have improved because we do not have a plan on the table, we do not have a real program to promote the process because if we are enemies and we have been enemies for centuries we cannot be friends overnight.

Just as there is a process, there is a psychological process, there is a progress of work that must be installed in society and unfortunately it is not happening to the extent that we should, we cannot think that this problem is obtained. It's going to take care of itself, it's not going to go through all the traffic, actually for me, I think forDon't let the tone suggest that nothing has happened, there was a season of hope and progress was made and then there was a season of despair when regression came. As a political scientist, you expected that cycle, you have euphoria, when you are a child, you have the initial takeoff, but things go wrong at a certain point and we must recognize that in terms of social cohesion we must understand both the local and global context.

We live in an era of populism, we live in an era of fragmentation, not just in South Africa, around the world, the anti-establishment, you see Trump in the US and what is happening across Europe, you see the immigration issues and identity politics. we need to understand that global context as well and the second part is the fact that once you don't talk honestly about the trade-offs that you face, we can hug each other during the World Cup if someone goes back to the informal settlements. where your daily life is to survive is illness, life, etc., it does not matter what debate, what common flag you have until you resolve those fundamental questions that one lives after having embraced the incentive to join, you know that the Metrorail goes to the other. to the way another takes their lived experience, that is exactly the point is that the professor, if you look at youth unemployment in 1996, between the ages of 15 to 35, was 40%, that is the strict definition in 2020, 18 was 52.8%, but the truth of the matter is that the global youth unemployment rate is actually three times that of adult unemployment, which means that this is something that is happening all over the world. , so we are also dealing with challenges as a new part of the global community. and we are talking 25 years later, sir, how much do South Africans recognize the perception of how good or bad it is to live? 25 years later and they had experiences. young people live in poverty and that will affect not only their quality of life and their discontent and alienation from the dominant political society and from parties and elections, but it will also affect social cohesion unless the economic base of society improves. and improve for young people. give an error and hope that this system actually does something for the future they are going to walk away and see if they happen and the so-called green to black colors the differences discrepancies and that is not good for a reconciliation and it does not mean that it is impossible to do something about social cohesion if there is no equality it is not impossible but it will go much better I know quality unfortunately there is a lot to talk about in such a short time but thank you very much to all of you The three of you, the veteran journalist from Robertson, was facilitating that historic debate that we had previously about Professor Suzanne Weston, Research Director of the Mapu Movie Institute, and thanks also to political analyst Dr Samet Iphigenia and remember that she can watch the debate if you missed it, which is on the SABC News Channel on the YouTube channel.

Thank you very much to my guests and thank you to all of you who work by participating in your interaction on social networks. We're taking a quick break get the facts first