İbrahim Kalın Conflict Zone'da: Cezaevlerini ve yargıyı işkenceden temizledik - DW Türkçe

when you do it in the West it is for public order, when we do it it is oppression, okay, this does not take us any further, you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another, Turkey has outraged many of its allies and partners with its operations military in Syria. and a whole catalog of human rights violations against his own people my guest here this week at the foreign policy forum in Berlin is Turkey's presidential spokesman, I

brahim

Khalid, how does he justify his country's highly controversial policies at home and abroad? I

brahim

, welcome to the

conflict

zone

, thank you.

Let's start with Mr. Erdogan's trip to Washington a couple of weeks ago. He went to change influential minds in the United States to talk about the justification for his military action in Syria, but it appears that he failed to change those opinions comprehensively. Because? Did that happen? Do you think we're okay with it? The visit went well. In fact, we have a good relationship with the Trump administration. Some people say Congress is obviously with Trump rather than the administration. Yeah, well, if you want to make that distinction, that's for American domestic politics to comment on. but obviously some people in Congress have a different view, those he hoped to influence had a different view, yes, and our president made a very clear case for why we went in there, because our goal has been to clear our border with Syria. . for more terrorist elements from groups related to isis or pkk, but they didn't believe it, well, i think they are prominent members of the republican party, senator lindsey graham, for example, chairman of the senate judiciary committee, seems to have particularly angered his president when talking about military action as an invasion, but what did he expect?

Well, he got the answer from him, obviously our president told him very clearly that he cannot call Turkey and invade it, but the president also got the answer from him, right? The reason it's an invasion is Lindsey Graham. The reason it's an invasion is because that's exactly what you did. I warned you not to do it and everything I was worried about came true in space. Well, it was Senator Graham who said a couple of years ago. to ash carter then the minister of defense of the united states that pkk is the same as pydypg pydypg in syria is the pk he is the one who said this officially now that he has changed his position it is not my place to comment on his changes on these issues, but we have had a very clear political line on this issue, we do not want to see any terrorist element taking control of a piece of land ruling the people in Syria, whether by the PKK or Isis or Al Qaeda or any other group, yes, but according to the pentagon that is exactly the effect of what you have done the pentagon said just a week ago believe citing information from the defense intelligence agency the terrorist organization they are talking about isis exploited the turkish incursion and the movement of U.S. forces to reconstitute capabilities and resources inside Syria and strengthen their ability to plan attacks abroad, that's exactly what you didn't want to happen, right?

On the contrary, it was actually pyd ypg in Tel Aviate and resulted in the release of about 800 Isis terrorists from prison when President Trump spoke. to our president about what Turkey is going to do with the Isis prisoners and our president said very clearly in that phone call that we will deal with them, that is, we will keep them locked up, we will not release them, we will try them. We will try to return them to their home countries and this is what we did, but it was Ypg Pyd that freed them from a prison on Russell Line, you know this, that is recorded, it is eminently foreseeable that that would happen, why would they do that and this? it's why you used the result but why did ypg do that for abroad what is the answer the answer is that pydypg wants to use isis actually as a bargaining chip in the eyes of the West telling them that you know without pyd ypg the fight against ISIS no will succeed, they need pydypg on the ground to fight ISIS and we have argued otherwise from the beginning, you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another, you cannot fight ISIS with the PKK, but if the effect is that six months minus the isis line in a much stronger position what are you going to do just say sorry feel military action we fight against isis in the jarablus al-bab area with operation euphrates shield we have eliminated more than 3,000 isis terrorists we have around of 1200 isis prisoners in turkey more than half of them are international citizens some are turkish we keep them in prison we will not release them we are going after all the isis elements if we look at the turkish-syrian border which is about 911 kilometers away From Idlib to the Iraqi border there is not a single ISIS element present in that strip of land.

You have cleared our border of ISIS. In fact, we brought this case to President Obama before he decided or when he decided to support pydypg in the fight against ISIS. we told them look, you don't need pyd to fight Isis, we can do this with the national elements in Syria, we can do it with the Turkish army, we don't want to, we don't need to have American troops on the ground, but you can provide air support, okay, and we can take care of uh Isis, they don't know, let me go back to your justification for this operation.

Do you have the right to make your border area safe from terrorism to force Kurdish PYD militant groups? Ypg get out of this so-called terror corridor, but very few countries are buying this line and if the job of a presidential spokesperson is to sell the president's line, he is not having much success, okay? Watch US Ambassador James Jeffrey, the State Department's point man in Syria, said Turkey launched this operation despite our objections, undermining the ISIS campaign, endangering and displacing civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure and threatening security. from the area, that's not high praise, none of that actually happened, so he doesn't know what he's talking about, well that's not what he told us in our meetings.

I have had many meetings with Jim, he is a good friend and of course as professionals we work together on these issues, he may be a good friend personally, not a great one. Dude, none of those relationships you really had if you look, they said there will be a big humanitarian crisis with the Turkish military operation, that didn't happen, people went back to their homes, they said the Kurds would be attacked, there were no Kurds. attacked except the pyd ypg terrorists on the ground they said that the Christian minorities will be oppressed or killed none of that happened in fact it was our army that uh recently repaired the Armenian church takes place now they are worshiping uh peacefully in the wrestling I'm talking about the church armenia there, so all these things that claim none of them have violations that they said would happen and have happened where exactly, give me some examples, ambassador jeffrey, ambassador jeffrey again gave you examples, he said we would say that the turks supported the Syrian opposition forces that were under Turkish general command in at least one case committed a war crime and we have demanded an explanation, you claimed that several investigations into human rights abuses were being carried out, so you are asking me about something you already know, how many investigations by the way and by whom a series of investigations have been launched by our army how many, mr callum, how many of them are operational details I would prefer not to do it, can you tell me if there are human rights, you will probably find out that There is a Good journalist, you can't search and you don't know it's just a general excuse, right?

Look, if you look at the civilian casualties in the Syrian war, can you guess how many people, how many civilians have died in the war? in the operation in raqqa guess we are not talking about no, you are talking about syria those are talking about syria civilians we are talking about human rights violations around 3,000 civilians died in raqqa the city of raqqa was destroyed razed to the ground about a thousand Civilians were killed in their resort and again in Mosul in the fight against ISIS. If you're going to talk about all this, I think we should be very honest and clear about these issues and it would be good if you did.

I am very vague about investing in human rights. Between nine and eleven civilians died in the fight against ISIS in Mosul alone. How many civilians have died in our operation? Mr. Calvin, you don't have a great track record of investigating human rights violations, do you? Why should I do it? things will be different now in 2016 the un committee against torture cited credible reports of turkish law enforcement officials torturing and ill-treating detainees the committee said it was concerned about the alleged impunity enjoyed by those who committed such acts impunity does not suggest You were researching a lot about those things.

We have a zero tolerance policy towards torture. In fact, we have cleansed our prisons, our judicial system of torture. We've had this in the past, but what you're referring to is what happened right after. the bloody coup attempt of July 15, 2016, when terrorist fetuses carried out a coup attempt in Turkey killing 251 people, it doesn't give you license to torture people, I didn't say there is torture, I don't say this to justify, referring to those who made those claims and who were actually behind this coup attempt that killed 251 people and injured about 1200 people, they intended to kill the elected president of Turkey, the reports of Mr. calling They go on and on two years ago, the NGO freedom against torture said that From 2011 to 2016, all the years that Erdogan and the AKP were in power, Turkey was one of the 10 countries with the highest cases of torture and in 2016 became among the top five.

No known investigations have been carried out. The number of investigations that have been carried out. has been done how many did he say we have how many and by whom do you mean 20 30 40 well I can give you that but you will give me details I would like the truth I will I can I will be happy to give you the exact numbers I do not have the reports on this I will be happy to send them to you in 2017 The human rights commissioner of the council of Europe said that the problem of effective investigations and impunity of security forces is a very old and deep-rooted problem in Turkey, so you are not fooling anyone, are you?

No, this talk of we are not in the business of fooling anyone, we are taking care of our own national security when you face these types of credible threats to national security against the pkk or from the pkk. of the Isis terrorists of the fetal terrorists those terrorist organizations The West only recognizes one of them, which is ISIS because it attacks Western interests, but the others, since they are only in Turkey and they attack Turkey, the elected government, security forces or civilians, no one wants to talk about them. Mr. Callum, you sent your Syrian proxy forces into the northeastern corridor of the country last month knowing that in all likelihood they would torture, abuse and possibly murder people because that is exactly what they had done in the northern city of Afran, which you seized in 2018, right?

In August of that year, Amnesty International reported that you gave free rein to Syrian groups armed by you to commit serious human rights abuses in Afrin that did not happen in Afrin. There was looting in Afrin and they were penalized but it is the same group by the way we are talking about the Syrians themselves who are fighting for their own freedom for their own country against the brutality of the Assad regime to which the Western world has now turned a blind eye we are the only ones actually taking care of millions of refugees and Assyrians both in Turkey and on the Syrian side, it is the same Syrian national army that the Americans supported or promised to support five years ago, six years ago they changed their policy over time, It's the same the Syrians who fought against Assad's forces in the Idlib area when they fought against Assad and Isis in that area they all applauded them what was the situation when they arrived at the pydypg health area suddenly the air changed they said well there is terrorists are jihadists they are the same people who fought in idlib everyone is grateful to Turkey for keeping things under control in idlib because we have prevented it and others mainly I don't see much gratitude in the Right now we are basically taking care of about seven million of Syrian refugees over the last four or five years, we are avoiding another major humanitarian crisis and other migration flows from Idlib.

I know they are doing more than anyone else. I don't know. I have heard that phrase, do you know what the situation is in Afrin now? It's very good, it's very calm. No, it's not very calm. Okay, no Isis, no PYD. A lot of what you say is pkk propaganda. You say it is very. listening in Syria you say the reason why they are upset the reason they are upset about Afrin they lost a large chunk of land if you ask the original Kurds who live in Afrin, whoby the way they are around 400,000, in Afrin ask them how they are treated now compared to how they were treated under the control of the pyd ypg two months ago the un human rights account two months ago the un human rights office reported that the situation in Afrin contrary to his pleasant assurances remained terrible armed factions had divided the province into

zone

s of influence there were repeated kidnappings torture extortion and murder that is a legacy you left behind isn't it?

It doesn't look like we have eliminated the pyd ypg terrorists who are the leftist Marxist Leninist group that is supported by all freedom loving liberal western countries including the Trump administration which is really mind boggling to me America will support the Marxist-Leninist organization in Syria in the name of the fight against ISIS. What baffles them is that, according to William Roebuck, who is the top State Department official in northern Syria, his forces have committed abuses. on the ground war crimes and ethnic cleansing, he said on November 7, Turkey's military operation led by armed Islamist groups on its payroll represents an intentional ethnic cleansing effort, he added, an unprovoked military operation that at the time spoke on November 7 had killed some 200 civilians and left more than 100,000 people newly displaced and homeless.

We've heard this many times from the centcom people within the Trump administration that not really, ever again and you just reconciled yourself to the fact that we are taking this action against your so-called allies you want them to recognize that you want them to recognize that they are reconciling with a pkk terrorist network in syria by giving them a piece of land and then at the same time talking about serious territorial integrity or ethnic balance in syria, how can you explain the fact that you favor an ethnic group that is linked to a terrorist network of the pkk, the so-called Kurds, against all Arabs, not Kurds, Syrians, not from the pkk, the Arabs, the Christians, the Turkmens, all the other Syrians, they come to us to tell us they talk to us about oppression under which they live under the YPG Mr.

Callan, we have talked about some of the criticism of your actions, especially from allies, but what you really want to eradicate is criticism at home, right? On October 10, its broadcast The regulator RTUK warned the Turkish media not to say anything critical about its action in Turkey, as there would be, as they say, zero tolerance for any broadcast that could negatively affect the morale and motivation of soldiers. or can deceive citizens through incomplete, falsified or partial information that can serve the objectives of terror, in other words, you put anything that the government does not like and you are in serious problems with freedom of the press, well, you have everything type of media in Turkey, many of them.

You've shut down TV on the internet, you have all kinds of different views attacking the president every day, attacking me and us, that's why in the first week of the crackdown you shut down 839 social media accounts for sharing, like you you say, criminal content. 186 people were taken into account that they were cheating for pkk 24 reminded all the children terrorist propaganda that you would not allow, I have no proof of that, would you not allow that in the UK, when you do it in the west, it is by order public when we do it is oppression since the 2016 coup attempt 180 media outlets have been forcibly closed more than 220,000 websites blocked according to article 19 of the NGO.

In September you said dozens of journalists were still imprisoned or under travel bans, not a proud record for you. Yes, but you are dealing with pkk media that is spreading propaganda for the terrorist network when you are dealing with feta terrorists who carried out that coup attempt on july 15. Yes, they had the media empire, not a media, a media empire in Türkiye. you are talking about these people i am talking about exactly using taxpayers money actually to spread their propaganda now unfortunately they have free rein here in western capitals they are everywhere according to germany's own committee for the protection of the constitution the presence of the pkk only in germany i have the full report here which is in german i am sure our german colleagues will know about this you will not mind if we cannot review it this is not our report this is the official report of germany in fact when President Stan Meyer came to Turkey when he was foreign minister about two years ago, I think our president presented this report to him and he also said, look, this is your own report, okay, this doesn't take us any further, no. , but what it says is not necessary: ​​you are giving a free right to pkk in Germany, why do you do that?

And to the extent that we do not do it in Türkiye, as far as the West is concerned. This was a British parliamentary committee report from 2017. There is a fundamental intolerance towards alternative narratives in Turkey, and the government widely represses, discredits or punishes those who contradict its accounts of sensitive events. Look, there are journalists who do their job. They are free to do so. The report has critical comments, no one has any problem with that, there are those who spread propaganda who actually use identification cards, press cards, but they function as PKK agents and those are people who you subject to extreme conditions in your prison, like Ahmed Sheikh, for example, from Jum Hurry up the newspaper. was reported to have been going on he was actually in solitary confinement by the Gulenists in the first place the Gulenists put him in prison oh so that makes everything okay now that John kept him in prison no but what I'm saying is this is the extent of the power that these people had in Turkey we are removing them from the media the police judiciary you mean you are cleaning you have nothing against him no no I am talking about the chained people who in fact had the judiciary and the security forces in their hands and now we are clarifying them.

Most of the things you are referring to are in fact a reference to these people, I am also referring to what the EU In its latest report, the Commission described the setback in human rights as a setback in a series of areas that affect human rights. It says its accession negotiations have effectively stalled. It's time to finish. It is not like this? Because they have no intention of meeting the conditions for membership that have been set by the EU, Viva promised full membership in the European Union many, many times and then violated human rights left and right and have made us wait since uh 62 63 officially, do we have an official? date in 2004 and five was our president, President Erdogan, who actually put so much political capital into this and we were presented with a package of 36 chapters, no candidate member was presented with so many chapters and then what happened 15 years later , we open only one chapter close only one chapter you are not even saying you are saying that you are the victim here you like to play at being the victim the victim of what prejudice against Turkey I do not see myself as a victim I am simply betting on the facts, look, there is an enlargement process or fatigue in Europe and there are conditions that must be met that they do not want and spam is not needed and there is negotiation fatigue in Turkey and also how long will it take another century?

Whether Türkiye is a full member, that's up to you, isn't that one thing? Respect the conditions. It could happen. Oh, look, most of the things you're not talking about, for example, in the Eastern Mediterranean today, are related to the Cyprus problem, remember? what happened in 2004 with the anand referendum for the unification of the island the turkish side said yes the greek side said no and what happened after the fact what did you write? what happened that you talked so much about is this part of the fight against -Turkish chorus that you often talk about I'm talking about what are you saying what are you saying the failure of concern are you saying that the EU is prejudiced against Turkey in the EU after the referendum?

What did they do instead of challenging the Greeks? site on this issue they accepted the greek side as a full member and that violated another key principle of the eu no bilateral territorial dispute is introduced in the eu they did exactly that and now for the last 14 15 years we have been dealing with this issue , but what I want to say is that it is about Cyprus or human rights or security or Turkey, but it is one thing after another that is presented as an excuse or an obstacle to Turkey's membership in the EU. Well, you know what you know. the conditions are so either you want to meet them or not call it a day then we will be sick of this call it a day if the EU wants to do it they can do it they are welcome to do it we are still committed to joining the eu as a full member right, no less than a full member, mr callum, let's briefly look at the time we have left in the purges of the people who were there after the attempted coup in 2016.

I think I already answered that the people who were fired from their many thousands of them had to be eliminated afterwards because the charges against them were nonsense, weren't they? Thousands of people who were falsely implicated in the coup attempt had to be reinstated because the accusations against them were forced, not because they had the opportunity to defend themselves before they were fired. That's life under your akp, isn't it okay? They will purge you. You don't have a choice on the east side or the west side of Berlin at the moment. Does it matter what's on the east side?

Know? how many people were fired from their jobs when unification happened they're not talking about germany i'm talking about you have to see i know you don't want to talk about i have to do this embarrassing you know no when it comes to talking about your own problems you want to provide context when it comes it's about Turkey you deny me the right to set the context I'm asking the audience here how many people were fired from their jobs when unification occurred in nineteen years this is this this is this I'll give you the number five hundred thousand people these are civilian workers these are soldiers these are journalists these are diplomats you can play the game of what's up and it's very fashionable no, I'm thousands of people were fired and humiliated and their reputations were dragged through the market before they could finally clear their names because there is a judicial path for this, yes, but look what happens while they have applied, those who were authorized, in fact, are free to leave or leave.

They apply for their jobs and that is still an ongoing process, of course, I'm not saying everything is perfect, there is still room for improvement, there are still things we need to do to make sure that these people that you know have all their rights, but you have to see this in context, your party has sat back and watched the lives of countless people be ruined while you hurled accusations at them that turned out to be false, there is a judicial process, oh it is important to apply it eventually, yes it was finally done, there was a breach for This 500 cares about collateral damage.

Yes, there were 500,000 people who were fired from their jobs during unification because they were suspected of working for Satsi, East Germany's German intelligence. Thank you. We are talking about Türkiye. We are talking about. People talk about Turkey and I think it carried out a military crew and I thank you very much for being in

conflict

, sir. It is a pleasure, thank you very much, to talk about you.