Bereavement: How to Transform Grief & Depression Through Spiritual Healing

Hi, I'm Marie Forleo and you're watching MarieTV, the ideal place to build a business and the life you love. If you or someone you know has ever struggled with sadness, loss, or

depression

, my guest today is here to share an illuminating perspective on its deeper meaning in our lives. Marianne Williamson is an internationally acclaimed author and

spiritual

speaker. Marianne has been a popular guest on shows like Oprah, Larry King Live, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, and Bill Maher. Six of her eleven published books have been New York Times Bestsellers. The mega-bestseller, A Return to Love, is considered a must read.

Marianne's other books include The Law of Divine Compensation, The Age of Miracles, Daily Grace, A Woman's Courage, Illuminata, Healing America's Soul, A Weight Loss Course, The Gift of Change, and A Year of Miracles. Her most recent book, Tears to Triumph: The Spiritual Journey from Suffering to Enlightenment, is now available. Marianne is originally from Houston, Texas and is the founder of Project Angel Food, a meals-on-wheels program that serves homebound individuals with AIDS in the Los Angeles area. To date, Project Angel Food has served more than 10 million meals. Marianne also co-founded The Peace Alliance and serves on the board of directors of The Results Organization, which works to end the worst ravages of hunger and poverty around the world.

Marianne, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Thanks for having me. I want to acknowledge, once again, I know you've been on the show before and we only did audio because we had some challenges with the video. But thank you for the work you do in the world. back to you I have told you this... Thank you. ...it just... it always makes a big difference to me and I'm always so excited when a new book comes out, that today... It's an honor when you say that. Thank you. Tears to Triumph. Read the whole thing.

It's amazing. Thank you. You've been advising people for over 30 years... Yes. ...in some very serious situations. Indeed. You too have had dark nights of the soul. Tell us what inspired you to write this book now. Well, actually, why I decided to write the book, I ran for Congress a couple of years ago. And after the election, a few days later, Maria Shriver interviewed me and asked if I was sad. And I said, "No, I'm not sad." She said: “Really? Aren't you sad at all? I said, “No, you know, somebody… you don't go into a political election knowing you're going to win.

Someone is going to win, someone is going to lose. So I'm not sad, I'm… whatever." She said: “Really? Aren't you a little sad? She said: "I had a cousin who ran for Congress and he lost and it was devastating to him for a long time." And I just... "No, it's not sad." And then about 2 or 3 days later, I think I was sitting in my apartment and it was like a black wave, a huge wave, it was coming at me like a tsunami. And I knew it. There was no doubt about it. And I had been through that once, a very, very terrible time in my life, a tragic time in my life decades before.

But also, we all go through our dark nights of the soul. And I also believe that suffering gives you an X-ray view of other people's suffering. So, for example, like when you were talking about my work. My career started right in the middle of the AIDS crisis. And so, from the beginning of my work, applying these principles to people's lives in often catastrophic situations has been central to my experience. Now, what I've seen in the last few years, what we've all seen, is that it's almost like we've started to make being deeply sad bad. Something has happened in our society where what I consider to be a normal spectrum of human suffering, if you take a risk and really get into it and a lot of people are behind you and then you fall flat on your face, of course you're going to be down about this for a while. .

If you are diagnosed with a serious illness, of course you will be depressed about this for a while. If you are going through a painful divorce, of course you will be in pain for a while. But those pains are not a mental illness. And what I've seen in recent years is so many people taking antidepressants, taking medication when, if you ask them why, they describe situations that are depressing but in a way that's part of life. And this is particularly worrying and I think we should all be very aware of it. The FDA itself has warned, and warns, that for people age 25 and younger, antidepressants may increase, not decrease, the risk of suicide.

We have a large increase in suicides, we also have a large increase in the use of antidepressants. So I don't see the causal relationship. I'm not saying there's a causal relationship between taking them and committing suicide, but I'm not saying we've proven a causal relationship between taking them and not taking them either. So I think there's been a pathologization of normal human suffering that is very unhealthy in my experience and in the experience of many people I've worked with and talked to. A dark night of the soul is one of the most

transform

ative times we go through in our lives.

They are sacred initiations. You learn things. That is what is so painful. What is so painful is that you have to look at things that are so painful to look at. You have to look at your failure, you have to look at your part in your own disasters. You have to look at your own mortality, you have to mourn the loss of a loved one or the loss of a marriage or a love affair. But I believe that the psyche has an immune system just like the body. If you are in a car accident, you go through something and it is understood that it will take time to heal.

Your body is bruised. And we often feel, everybody knows this, you know, you go through a tough time and you feel like you're emotionally hurt because you are. But humanity would not have evolved over the past thousands, hundreds of thousands of years if we were not imbued with the ability to take a hit. And that is true not only physically, but also emotionally and psychologically. Catastrophes did not just start to happen. Heartbreak didn't just start happening. The duel did not begin to happen. And in our true arrogance, the modern mind has decided that it can do better than certain natural systems.

And we know that our bodies run on their immune system, and yet with a lot of the over-the-counter drugs that are put into the United States today, we're trying to shut down the immune system. And the psychic immune system, just like the physical immune system, involves taking time. You will be sad for a while. You're going to be depressed for a while. A lot of people say, “Oh no, you know, Williamson, you know, don't step there. This is a physical disease. We see that there is a chemical imbalance in

depression

.” But I ask you, do you know anyone who has been clinically diagnosed with depression and had a blood test or some kind of brain test done to see all this chemical change in their brain?

No. Clinical… the diagnosis of clinical depression is a questionnaire. And when you look at that quiz, I don't know anyone who couldn't look at some of those and say, "Yeah, I've been there." Yes. So I think it's extremely important that we don't stay in a corner of thought. Look, I have as much respect for biomedical research as anyone. I am not saying… and I am not saying that there is no place for psychotherapeutic drugs, bipolar situations, schizophrenia, etc., but not within the spectrum of normal human suffering that we have begun to pathologize in this country. So I think if I'm talking to a therapist or a doctor who doesn't take the soul into their calculations and I think it's a soul disease, it's a

spiritual

disease, who…are they saying what should I step on? for medical reasons?

I am challenging the claim that this is medical ground and who are you to tread on spiritual ground? This is an ancient disease called the dark night of the soul. And if you look, the three spiritual traditions that I looked at in the book: Buddha, the story of Moses and the exodus, and Jesus. They, like all great religious and spiritual systems, have at their center the problem of human suffering. Buddha said that life is suffering. That is the essence of suffering. He says that's what I teach, that life is suffering, and I teach the cessation of suffering through the understanding, he said, that the things of this world can only bring temporary happiness.

Well, you and I live in a culture that says if we're not happy, we have to get this or that or that or that. Buddha says that the very fact that you think you need this to make you happy is your stage for despair. And then in the exodus story, the central point is that God sent Moses to free the Israelites from their suffering as slaves and from the suffering of the Israelites on their journey to the promised land. And then, of course, the suffering of Jesus on the cross. So it's not that the spiritual traditions have nothing to add.

And so I wanted to write a book where people could feel, hopefully feel, some guidance and some enlightenment on how to navigate these times, not run from these times. You know, someone was telling me the other day that when buffalo see a storm coming, they don't turn around. They run straight for him. That they know what that is... and I heard that before I wrote the book or I would have put it. Who know that the best way to get over it is to go straight to it. And I think there are certain moments in life, and I felt that with this last one in my life. this is coming This is... this is... this couldn't be helped no matter what.

You are going to have to see this, you are going to have to deeply forgive yourself and others and take responsibility for all of those things or else you will come out of this more, they say, more bitter than better. Yeah. You know, tight instead of expanded. And I think when you're younger, one of the things that disturbs me the most about this with young people is not just the physical aspect, which is that at age 25 or younger, antidepressants increase, they can increase the risk of suicide, he has said the fda. this. It's written on a little black box, but no one talks about it.

But I think the 20s are difficult. Yeah. I mean, it's just... it's hard. So, in young people, being depressed is like, yeah, honey, this is called becoming who you are. And then in older people, you're depressed about who you've become. So, you know, on both sides it's like the dark days are part of the natural order and the

transform

ation process, I think. So I can even hear someone in the audience say, "Oh Marianne, this sounds amazing, but I'm actually on antidepressants right now." What would you tell them? Oh, thanks for bringing that up because I think it's very important.

I am not a doctor and would never suggest with any pharmaceutical that you just throw it in the bin. My whole point is that we should be much more sober about how we approach them and we certainly should be sober about how we break free. So if someone is sitting down with this conversation that is being articulated not only by myself but also by others, and feels that they would like to steer clear of pharmaceutical treatment for their depression, obviously they should only do so under the supervision of a physician. who tells you what is the best way to do it.

So, according to many experts, clinical depression is being alarmingly overdiagnosed and overtreated. Why do you think our suffering has become a profit center? Surely not... you really don't lack the answer. Any of us who think about this are with the answer. It's what I call the psychotherapeutic drug industrial complex. Yes. We're talking billions of dollars here. Another one that you hear a lot about is a lot of young women, even girls, who aren't even in their… aren't even sexually active and still take birth control pills to, quote unquote, regulate their hormones. What is this about regulating your hormones?

Nature has been regulating our hormones for hundreds of thousands of years. Yes. What's going on here? Another thing that I find interesting in terms of our community, Marie, is that there are so many people who don't want to touch gluten, don't want to put… ooh, I wouldn't want those chemicals in my gut, that doesn't seem to transfer that to the chemicals in your brain so casually. Yes what is it about? And you have something else in the book that is really interesting and I… you say the place… “What is placed on the altar is altered”. Yes. "And a prayer for a miracle is not a request that the situation be different, but a request that we see it differently." Good.

And then I love that you also juxtapose that with, you know, for someone who's in deep pain right now, because there's going to be people watching who are very hopeful and you're like, you know, when your spouse has left you after 25 years. . , where is the miracle in that? When your child has died from a drug overdose, where is the miracle in that? Good. What is your response, this idea that what you place on the altar will be altered? And when they feel so deep...? First of all, I think we need to recognize that if someone you love has died or been painfully divorced or something like that, of course you're sad.

You are sad because you are human. So the goal should not be simply to flatten our emotions. That is first. Know… I knowthat when I was young,

grief

was more permissible. There was more emotional permission for pain. People wore… immediate family members wore black for a year… now, you know, we all wear black all the time, but this was before. And even the Jews still take a piece of black cloth, cloth, and wear it. And in , the Jewish book of wisdom, it actually talks about how for the first year after the death of an immediate family member, the widow or widower or parent or child is allowed to leave food for… leave the dinner during lunch.

In other words, there were social prescriptions, which is extremely important because if you allow your

grief

, then when it's over, it's over. And if you don't allow it or suppress it, it will bite you. So that's the first thing, knowing that this is a painful moment but that it will pass. That is but it will pass. And that's where religion comes in or when I say religion I don't mean exoteric dogma, doctrine, organized institution. I'm talking about genuine religious experience. And that's where you're talking about putting something on the altar. The altar is in the mind.

When you put something on the altar you are saying: "I am willing for this situation to be reinterpreted", by the Holy Spirit or the name you give to those... that internal guidance system, which is not of this world. So once again, spiritual disease, spiritual solution. The spiritual solution means coming not from an external source but from an internal source. And from an inner source that is beyond your own. So someone has died. It is the difference between I am grieving, life is over, I will not see them again, physical death is the end, which is a torment that never ends, versus being with them in physical incarnation is over, my pain is understandable .

This is not a sign of lack of mental health, it is a sign of love. That the book of life never ends. A chapter has finished. Physical death is not the end but a continuation. I will see them again. I have more to do while I'm here. They are still here. Death does not exist. What God created cannot be uncreated. They're still streaming, my gear just doesn't pick up on that. I still suffer through the season of my grief, but with a peace, not barbed wire, around my heart. Same with a divorce. A Course in Miracles says that relationships never end, they are of the mind.

The form of the relationship is over. Physical proximity is no longer the container, but the relationship ends. Besides, if I stay bitter, I won't be able to move on with my life. If I have anger I will not be able to move on in my life. If I don't forgive myself and that other person, I won't be able to move on in my life. So during my tears, during my pain, as I get rid of this pain, I have work to do, which is to look deeply at my own part in this, acknowledge it, apologize where I need to apologize, make amends, and make changes within yourself.

Otherwise, you will simply recreate the situation. So these are things that you put on the altar. I put my anger on the altar. I put on the altar my sense that I am a victim here. I put on my altar my belief that death is the end. I put my attack thoughts on the altar. I put my grudge on the altar. I lay on the altar my sense of failure. I put on the altar my feeling that nothing will ever be good again, I will never be loved again, I will never have a great job again, I will never have a chance again.

I put on the altar the idea that I'm too old, that I'm fed up, or whatever. Yes. And that is what I mean when I say that these periods are sacred times when deep work is being done. And sometimes, for one thing, those sleepless nights, some of the things that you can most easily scare away during the day, those demons that you can distract yourself from, are there at night. They come out of their caves at night and, yes, it's painful and, yes, you don't sleep. But that's part of the process because they have to be looked down on.

They must transform or else they will go underground and find subconscious ways to punish you. But if you recognize what is coming... you know, mental pain brings a message just like physical pain. And you have to pay attention to that physical pain. If you have a broken leg, you don't just take morphine, you have to reset the leg. And if you have mental pain we have to reset our thinking to reset our emotions. Then you can move on from a better place, as a better person, a person ennobled by the experience, with a more open heart.

And also another blessing that may come, I was talking earlier about how you get X-ray vision into the suffering of others. You have more mercy and more sensitivity towards the pain of others. One of the negative consequences of not fully experiencing our pain, being sensitive enough to our own pain, is that it makes us less sensitive to the pain of others, and that is never a good thing. And I also think that when you win over your depression, your pain, is that you feel like you made a mistake in life, sometimes that's when you really come to understand the word mercy.

Because the universe is going to give you another chance. The universe is like a GPS. Took a wrong turn, it's just going to recalibrate. And I believe that when you have felt the mercy of God with you, you learn to be more merciful with others. Sometimes I'll be about to judge someone and then remind myself that I've done much worse, so stop right there. So I have a question that I think a lot of people in our audience can relate to. I know I have certainly experienced this at times, where on the surface life actually seems pretty good and no tragic loss has actually occurred.

No divorce, no illness, but we can feel like a cloud has settled over us and we feel low and I know from conversations I've had personally it's like waiting, I shouldn't be low. You should be very grateful. We are aware of the suffering in other parts of this country and the world, people who have a much worse time than we do. How can I feel so dark and depressed right now? I'm curious what you would say. Well, look at what you just said. I have everything. I mean, I know other people are hurting, but I should be happy.

No, you shouldn't be happy if other people are suffering. That is the point. You know, the whole notion in Buddhism is to pray for the happiness of all sentient beings. That's the current point that, you know, if someone gets their head cut off in Iraq but it's on your computer, you could be in Idaho. You are going to be depressed that day. While you and I are talking, a plane crashed yesterday, they think it was terrorism. To really acknowledge what happened, what triggered that invasion of Iraq. If you're looking at the world today and you're not grieving, I don't think you're looking.

And the fact that so many people seem to look at the world today and not grieve is not a sign of mental health. The fact that you have your own, you know, it's like Buddha said. Material things can only bring temporary happiness at best. So the fact that we are sometimes sad is a sign that we are sensitive human beings. Paul Hawken has that blessed restless expression. Look at the state of the planet, if we don't turn this around, the entire ecosystem could implode within 20 years. All the… all the nuclear bombs that we not only have but continue to build.

The terrible problem that we have with terrorism and ISIL and anyone who looks at it from a rational perspective knows that there is no easy answer here. The terrible inequalities in the world? And that contrasted with the fact that everything could be so beautiful. That's tragic, that's moving. Just because you feel that doesn't mean something is wrong with you. You know, I tell a story in the book about a herd of chimpanzees in Africa and how some anthropologists discovered that there was a small core part of the chimpanzee population in this chimpanzee village called a herd that seemed to display depressed behavior.

They didn't eat with the other chimpanzees, they didn't play with the other chimpanzees, they didn't sleep with the other chimpanzees. So these anthropologists thought it was very interesting because it seemed to reflect the human population. So what they did was they took out the so-called depressed chimpanzees for 6 months and then they went back to the chimpanzee village, the troop, to see what was the effect of taking all those chimpanzees, the depressed chimpanzees. You know, and I've asked the public everywhere, what do you think they found? Now, you've read the book so you know what they found.

But most people say, the answer I usually hear is, "Well, the more of the chimpanzee troop, the more they had become depressed." What they found was that the entire herd of chimpanzees was dead. And what they concluded from that was that the depressed chimpanzees in quotes were their early warning system. They were the chimpanzees who could tell that snakes or elephants or storm clouds or earthquakes or tornadoes were coming. And then the rest of the chimpanzees saw, oh, they're depressed. We better cover up or whatever. So what we have in today's society, the fact that people are depressed means that something is wrong, something is not working.

And so it's like we are the canaries in the gold mine…in the coal mine, but what the system is saying is that there is something wrong with the canaries. There is nothing wrong with canaries. And our suffering should be more than, you know, a profit center for the gold makers. So… for the drug manufacturers. So I think it's very important that we look at our modern civilization and realize how the very organizing principles that dominate life in the modern world repudiate our spiritual nature. Those principles posit us as separate rather than one. They posit short-term economic gain as more important than building community, than fostering true mutual care, for our children.

They make everything external seem more important than what is internal. They have us like hamsters in a wheel always chasing those things saying that those things will bring us happiness, and the fact that they don't bring us happiness just means that they cannot fundamentally and permanently do it. So for us to recognize what is profoundly wrong both in our own individual lives and in the world as a whole, then it awakens us to what we must do to change it. Let's talk about the wisest question we can ask when we are deeply sad. You said how can I…?

It's not how can I end or numb this pain right away? What is the meaning of this pain? What does this pain reveal to me? What is calling me to understand? I loved this because it gives us a tool to start, I think, resetting our thinking. Someone... I lost a sister, I lost both of my parents, I lost my best friend. I learned that life is short. I learned not to waste time on unimportant things. I remember at my sister's deathbed I was sitting there, she had a couple of days to live, she was sitting. My brother was at the end of the bed, I was sitting there, and I was shocked to realize that we forgot to do the brother thing.

We didn't…like, we had intimated a brother and brother and 2 sisters. Now, if I called my sister a year before, 2 years before, 3 years before and I said, "Why don't you and Peter and I have dinner?" she would have said, “Why? I have children, Marianne, I don't have time to go out to dinner with you”, because we were all busy. And I just received it. I understood this... there was something we completely forgot to experience. When my sister died, I said that my grief was not that she didn't know her longer, but that she didn't know her better.

Yes, she died young, but with that mindset I don't think she would have known better. And… in my life she took the loss of a best friend, she took the loss of a sister to feel me more deeply. This is... don't waste time. Don't waste time loving people. And also my parents, and this happens for most of us as we get older, it's very transformative that, you know, you're… there's a way that you're not at center stage as long as one parent is alive. At the end of relationships, heartbreak at the end of relationships. I've never been in one and I've never seen one where everything was one person's problem.

Where do you get wiser? What was my part? Where did I not say? You know, we live in a society today where people are always telling you about relationships, "Are you getting what you need?" Instead of, instead of, "Are you giving it all you've got?" So sometimes we dress up as people with the best intentions and even your support and counselor, could you be a little more narcissistic here? Or could you be a bit more egocentric here? Could you do something more about yourself here? But really, really focus on how other people are doing wrong and, you know, their issues and why you were attracted to someone like that instead of their therapist probably asking them why you were attracted to them.

So those things are wisdom and they... come from experience and sometimes from very painful experiences. And then you're better and then you're different. And then you are ready to move on in life without recreating the same old things, having a larger life because your heart and mind have expanded. What are the spiritual principles that free us from our pain and how can we apply them? First, the understanding that love is real and nothing else exists. That helove is all that matters. Yes... forgiveness is the key to happiness and if you don't forgive... love works miracles. Love is who you are.

You cannot be comfortable in your skin when you are not standing in the space of who you are. Who you are is love. If I withhold love, if I don't rise to the occasion, if I don't practice mercy, compassion and forgiveness, I can't be happy. So when you said that some people say I should be happy, you know, you could live in a palace but if you're attacking other people, holding on to resentments and grievances, if you're living in the past or the future instead of being present, you can't be happy. That's the joke of our society that tells you that you should be and then you feel something is wrong with you if you're not and they tell you that you have a disorder.

That is the important thing now, everyone has a disorder, a depressive disorder, an anxiety disorder. And I'm not being simplistic here, but our entire civilization is an anxiety disorder. Who does not? Something like empathy. And I say this, you know, some people feel like I'm insensitive. You know, I read the book and that's lovely, but who doesn't? Who is not deeply sensitive in their essence? Who is not deeply empathetic in their essence? So this is something we get a lot of questions about as well and I'm sure it will come out of this interview. When you have someone you know and love and they're grieving and going through a very difficult time.

From a spiritual perspective, how can we genuinely support those we love when we know this is something they are going through? You know, I used to joke that I knew the inventory of every gift shop in every hospital in Los Angeles because I hated walking up the stairs. He was scared. Like, what am I going to say? What I am going to do? Until I realized just being present. It's not what you're going to say or what… it's that you're going. And then I also learned that being around people who are dying, they are going to minister to you as much as you are going to minister to them.

So it's a gift for both you and them. Jews and Catholics have ancient traditions. They are told what to do. Catholicism and Judaism really dominate it. Jews - women begin to cook, men sit in shiva. Catholicism also has a lot of ritual ceremony. Many Protestants stand still and don't know what to do. And so this is one of the ways that if you're part of an ancient religion or tradition, it really helps to be told what to do. The ceremony to participate and so on. Sometimes you will say to someone: "Did you go to the funeral?" And you'll hear someone say, "No, you know, I'm grieving in my own way." And I want to slap them and say, "It's not about you." It's his wife or her husband and the kids and they'll see that people are there and people care.

Just stay there. You know, we are women, we know it. You know, you're going through something, you call a friend. "Will you come?" Yes. Just come here. Just be with me To be there. You know, just stay with me. Sometimes I… well, sometimes people just say… I've been with people, let's say someone just lost her husband and I'm with another friend and then I'm like, "I'm surprised you didn't mention that." ". .” And they'll say, "Well, I didn't want to bring it up." As if I wasn't thinking about that! It can be very meaningful when people say, “I'm so sorry.

I heard about your loss. Just stay there. There's nothing fancy to do but say you care. You know, in my life when I've been through things, even like we're talking about the congressional campaign, that I'm not comparing in any way to the loss of a loved one. But it was so nice, I was walking down the street and someone was like, “I voted for you and I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry you lost. And just… there's nothing like people just saying they care. But we… we need to be proactive around the sad things. Don't try to help people distract from their sadness.

Join them in a moment of empathy. Would it be open if we closed with a beautiful sentence from the book? Thank you. I'm honored that you call him beautiful. And you chose one here. I did. He was one that really made me cry... Thank you Marie. ...when I first read it. There are many things in the book that I think everyone should read, but this one in particular. Thank you. Yes. Dear God, I give you the pain that is in my heart. I give you my failure, my shame, my loss, my devastation. I know that in you, dear God, all darkness becomes light.

Pour out your spirit on my mind and help me forgive my past. Make my life start again. Restore my soul and bring me peace. Comfort me in this painful hour so that I can see again my innocence and my good. I've fallen, dear God, and I feel like I can't get up. Please lift me up and give me strength. Put my feet on the path of peace and help me not to stray further. I pray for forgiveness. I am crushed by my failure. Please show me who I am to you, that self-hatred will not win me over.

Help me to remember and recover my good. Help me become who you want me to be and live the life you want me to live so that my tears are no more. Amen. you are a legend Back to you. You are not a legend yet because you are not old enough, but you are already such a bright light on the planet. You're one of those first name people, Marie. I adore you. Thank you very much… I adore you too. ...for your work, for coming on the show, and for continuing to do all that you do. Thanks Maria.

I love you. I love you too. God bless you, honey. Now, Marianne and I would love to hear from you. What is the most important insight you take away from this conversation, and how can you turn that insight into action in your own life? Now, as always, the best conversations happen on MarieForleo.com, so go there and leave a comment now. Now, when you're there, make sure to sign up and become an MF expert. Not only will you get powerful audio called How To Get What You Want, but you'll also get access to exclusive content, freebies, and insider updates that I just don't share anywhere else.

Stay on your game and keep going for your dreams because the world needs that special gift that only you have. Thank you very much for watching and I will see you next time on MarieTV.