Bereavement: How to Transform Grief & Depression Through Spiritual Healing

Hi, I'm Marie Forleo and you're watching MarieTV, the place to build the business and life you love. If you or someone you know has ever struggled with sadness, loss, or

depression

, my guest today is here to share an insightful perspective on its deeper meaning in our lives. Marianne Williamson is an internationally renowned

spiritual

author and speaker. Marianne has been a popular guest on shows such as Oprah, Larry King Live, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, and Bill Maher. Six of her eleven books published have been New York Times bestsellers. The mega bestseller, A Return to Love, is considered a must-read.

Marianne's other books include The Law of Divine Compensation, The Age of Miracles, Everyday Grace, The Courage of a Woman, Illuminata, The Healing of America's Soul, A Course in Weight Loss, The Gift of Change, and A year of miracles. Her most recent book, Tears to Triumph: The Spiritual Journey from Suffering to Enlightenment, is available now. Marianne is originally from Houston, Texas, and is the founder of Project Angel Food, a meals-on-wheels program serving homebound people with AIDS in the Los Angeles area. To date, Project Angel Food has served more than 10 million meals. Marianne also co-founded The Peace Alliance and serves on the board of directors of The Results Organization, working to end the worst ravages of hunger and poverty around the world.

Marianne, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Thanks for having me. I want to acknowledge, once again, that you've been on the show before and we only did audio because we had some challenges with the video. But thank you for the work you do in the world. Back to you. I told you this… Thank you. ...it just... it always makes a big difference to me and I'm always so excited when you publish a new book, which today... It's an honor when you say that. Thank you. Tears of triumph. Read the full article.

It's extraordinary. Thank you. He has been advising people for more than 30 years... Yes. ...in some very serious situations. Indeed. You too have had dark nights of the soul. Tell us what inspired you to write this book now. Well, actually, the reason I decided to write the book was because I ran for Congress a couple of years ago. And after the election, a few days later, Maria Shriver interviewed me and asked me if I was sad. And I said, "No, I'm not sad." She said, “Really? Aren't you sad at all? I said, “No, you know, someone… you don't go into a political election knowing you're going to win.

Someone is going to win, someone is going to lose. So I’m not sad, I’m… whatever.” She said, “Really? Aren't you just a little sad? She said, “I had a cousin who ran for Congress and lost and it was devastating for him for a long time.” And I just… “No, it’s not sad.” And then about 2 or 3 days later, I think he was sitting in my apartment and it was like a black wave, a huge wave, came at me like a tsunami. And I knew it. There was no doubt about it. And I had already been through that once, a very, very terrible time in my life, a tragic time in my life decades before.

But we also all go through our dark nights of the soul. And I think suffering also gives you an x-ray view of other people's suffering. Like, for example, like when you were talking about my work. My career began right in the middle of the AIDS crisis. And so, since the beginning of my work, applying these principles to the lives of people in often catastrophic situations has been fundamental to my experience. Now, what I've seen in recent years, what we've all seen, is that it's almost as if we've started to make being deeply sad wrong. Something has happened in our society where what I consider a normal spectrum of human suffering, if you take a risk and really try hard at it and a lot of people stand behind you and support you and then you fall flat on your face, of course I'll be depressed about this for a while. time.

If you are diagnosed with a serious illness, of course you will feel depressed for a while. If you go through a painful divorce, of course you will feel pain for a while. But those pains are not a mental illness. And what I've seen in recent years is so many people who take antidepressants, who take pharmaceuticals, and if you ask them why, they describe situations that are depressing but in a way that they are part of life. And this is particularly disturbing and I think we should all be very aware of it. The FDA itself has warned, and warns, that for people 25 years old and younger, antidepressants may increase, not decrease, the risk of suicide.

We have a huge increase in suicides, we also have a huge increase in the use of antidepressants. So I don't see the causal relationship. I'm not saying there's a causal relationship between taking them and committing suicide, but I'm also not saying we've proven there's a causal relationship between taking them and not taking them. So I think there has been a pathologization of normal human suffering that is very unhealthy in my experience and in the experience of many people that I have worked with and spoken to. A dark night of the soul is one of the most

transform

ative moments we go through in our lives.

They are sacred initiations. You learn things. That's what's so painful. What's so painful is that you have to look at things that are so painful to look at. You have to look at your failure, you have to look at your part in your own disasters. You have to look at your own mortality, you have to mourn the loss of a loved one or the loss of a marriage or a love story. But I believe that the psyche has an immune system just like the body. If you are in a car accident, you go through something and it is understood that it will take a while to heal.

Your body is bruised. And we often feel like everyone knows, you know, you go through a tough time and you feel emotionally hurt because you are. But humanity would not have evolved over the last thousands, hundreds of thousands of years if we had not been imbued with the ability to take a hit. And that is true not only physically, but also emotionally and psychologically. Catastrophes did not start to happen by themselves. The heartbreak didn't start happening on its own. The pain didn't start happening on its own. And in our true arrogance, the modern mind has decided that it can do better than certain natural systems.

And we know that our bodies are supposed to work with their immune system, and yet with a lot of the overmedication that's being done in America today, we're trying to override the immune system. And the psychic immune system, like the physical immune system, involves taking time. You will be sad for a while. You'll be depressed for a while. A lot of people say, “Oh, no, you know, Williamson, you know, don't go in there. This is a physical illness. “We see that there is a chemical imbalance in

depression

.” But I ask you, do you know anyone who has been clinically diagnosed with depression and had a blood test or some type of brain test done to look at all this chemical change in their brain?

No. Clinical… the diagnosis of clinical depression is a questionnaire. And when you look at that questionnaire, I don't know anyone who can't look at some of them and say, "Yeah, I've been through that." Yes. That's why I think it's extremely important that we don't stay in a corner of our thinking. Look, I have as much respect for biomedical research as anyone. I'm not saying... and I'm not saying there is no place for psychotherapeutic drugs, bipolar situations, schizophrenia, etc., but not within the spectrum of normal human suffering that we have begun to pathologize in this country. And so I think that if I talk to a therapist or a doctor who doesn't take the soul into account in their calculations and I think it's a disease of the soul, it's a

spiritual

disease, who... are they telling me what to step on?

In medical field? I am challenging the claim that this is medical ground and who are you to tread on spiritual ground? This is an ancient illness called the dark night of the soul. And if you look, the three spiritual traditions that I analyzed in the book: Buddha, the story of Moses and the exodus, and Jesus. They, like all great religious and spiritual systems, have at their center the question of human suffering. Buddha said that life is suffering. That is the essence of suffering. He says that's what I teach, that life is suffering, and I teach the cessation of suffering through the understanding, he said, that the things of this world can only bring temporary happiness.

Well, you and I live in a culture that says if we're not happy, we should get this or that or that or that. Buddha says that the very fact that you think you need this to be happy is your predisposition to despair. And then in the story of the exodus, the point is that God sent Moses to free the Israelites from their suffering as slaves and from the suffering of the Israelites on their journey to the promised land. And then, of course, the suffering of Jesus on the cross. So it's not that spiritual traditions have nothing to add.

That's why I wanted to write a book where people could feel, hopefully feel, some guidance and some enlightenment about how to navigate these times, not run from these times. You know, someone told me the other day that buffaloes when they see a storm approaching, they don't turn around. They stumble upon it. Let them know that's... and I heard it before I wrote the book or I would have included it. Let them know that the best way to overcome it is to go directly into it. And I think there are certain moments in life, and I felt that with this last one in my life.

This is coming. This is... this is... this can't be helped no matter what. You're going to have to look at this, you're going to have to deeply forgive yourself and others and take responsibility for all of those things or else you'll come out of this more, they say, more bitter than better. Yes. You know, narrower than widened. And I think that when you're younger, one of the things that worries me the most about this among young people is not just the physical aspect, which is that at 25 years old or younger, antidepressants increase, which can increase the risk of suicide, the FDA said. this.

It's written in a black box, but no one talks about it. But I think the 20s are difficult. Yeah. I mean, it's just... it's hard. So for young people, being depressed is like, yeah, honey, this is called becoming who you are. And then, in older people, you are depressed by what you have become. So, you know, on both sides it's like the dark days are part of the natural order and the

transform

ative process, I think. So I can even hear someone in the audience say, "Oh, Marianne, this sounds amazing, but I'm actually on antidepressants right now." What would you tell them?

Oh, thank you for mentioning that because I think it's very important. I am not a doctor and I would never suggest with any pharmaceutical product that they throw it in the trash. What I mean is that we should be much more sober about how we behave around them, and we should certainly be more sober about how we get out of them. So if anyone is feeling this conversation being articulated by not only me but others, and feels like they would like to move away from pharmaceutical treatment for their depression, obviously they should only do so under the supervision of a doctor. who tells you what is the best way to do it.

According to many experts, clinical depression is being alarmingly overdiagnosed and overtreated. Why do you think our suffering has become a profit center? Surely you're not... you're not really without the answer. Any of us who think about this have the answer. It's what I call the psychotherapeutic pharmacological industrial complex. Yes. We're talking billions of dollars here. Another one that we hear a lot is that of many young women, even girls, who are not even in their... not even sexually active and who still take birth control pills to, quote, regulate their hormones. What is this for regulating your hormones?

Nature has been regulating our hormones for hundreds of thousands of years. Yes. What is happening here? Another thing I find interesting in terms of our community, Marie, is that there are so many people who don't want to touch gluten, don't want to put... ooh, I wouldn't want those chemicals in my gut, which doesn't seem like you transfer that to chemicals. in your brain so casually. Yes. What is that about? And you have something else in the book that is really interesting and I… you name the place… “What is put on the altar is altered.” Yes. “And a prayer for a miracle is not a request for the situation to be different, but a request for us to see it differently.” Good.

And then I love that you also juxtapose that with, you know, for someone who is hurting deeply right now, because there will be people watching who are very hopeful and you say, you know, when your spouse has left you after 25 years. Where is the miracle in that? When your child has died from a drug overdose, where is the miracle? Good. What is your response, this idea that what you place on the altar will be altered? And when they feel so deep...? First of all, I think we need to recognize that if someone you love has died or had a painful divorce or something like that, of course you're sad.

You are sad because you are human. SoThe goal should not be to simply silence our emotions. That is first. Know… I know that when I was young, pain was more allowed. There was more emotional permission for pain. People wore... immediate family wore black for a year... now, you know, we all wear black all the time, but this was before. And even the Jews still take a piece of black cloth, cloth, and put it on. And in , the Jewish book of wisdom, it actually talks about how during the first year after the death of a member of the immediate family, the widow, father, or son is allowed to leave food for... leave dinner during the meal.

In other words, there were social prescriptions, which is extremely important because if you allow your pain, when it's over, it's over. And if you don't allow it or repress it, it will bite you. So that's the first thing, knowing that this is a painful moment but it will pass. But that will pass. And that is where religion comes in or when I say religion I am not talking about exoteric dogma, doctrine, institution, organized. I mean genuine religious experience. And that's where you're talking about putting something on the altar. The altar is in the mind. When you put something on the altar you are saying, “I am willing to have this situation reinterpreted,” by the Holy Spirit or whatever you call that… that internal guidance system, which is not of this world.

So, once again, spiritual illness, spiritual solution. The spiritual solution means not coming from an external source but from an internal source. And from an internal source that is beyond yours. So someone has died. It's the difference between I'm grieving, life is over, I'll never see them again, physical death is the end, which is a torment that never ends, versus this being with them in physical incarnation is over, my pain is understandable. . This is not a sign of lack of mental health, it is a sign of love. That the book of life never ends. A chapter has ended.

Physical death is not the end but a continuation. I will see them again. I have more to do while I'm here. They are still here. Death does not exist. What God created cannot be uncreated. They're still transmitting, my device just doesn't pick that up. I still grieve during the season of my

grief

, but with a peace, not a barbed wire, around my heart. The same with a divorce. A Course in Miracles says that relationships never end, they are of the mind. The form of the relationship is over. Physical proximity is no longer the container, but rather the relationship ends.

Besides, if I stay bitter, I won't be able to move on with my life. If I have anger I will not be able to move forward in my life. If I don't forgive myself and that other person, I won't be able to move forward in my life. So, during my tears, during my pain, as I let go of this pain, I have work to do, which is to look deeply at my part in this, acknowledge it, apologize when I need to apologize, make amends and make changes within yourself. Otherwise, you will simply recreate the situation. So these are things that you put on the altar.

I put my anger on the altar. I put on the altar my feeling that I am a victim here. I place on my altar my belief that death is the end. I put my thoughts of attack on the altar. I put my resentment on the altar. I put my feeling of failure on the altar. I put on the altar my feeling that nothing will ever be good again, I will never be loved again, I will never have a great job again, I will never have a chance. I put on the altar the idea that I'm too old, or that I'm done, or whatever.

Yes. And that's what I mean by these periods being sacred times when deep work is being done. And sometimes, on the one hand, those sleepless nights, some of the things you can most easily chase away during the day, those demons you can distract yourself from, are there at night. They come out of their caves at night and yes, it is painful and yes, you don't sleep. But that's part of the process because you have to stare at them. They must be transformed or they will simply go underground and find subconscious ways to punish you. But if you recognize where they're coming from... you know, psychic pain brings a message just like physical pain does.

And you have to pay attention to that physical pain. If you have a broken leg, you don't just take morphine, you have to reset the leg. And if we have psychic pain, we have to reset our thinking to reset our emotions. Then you can move forward from a better place, as a better person, a person ennobled by experience, with a more open heart. And also another blessing that may come. I was talking earlier about how you have an x-ray view of the suffering of others. You have more mercy and more sensitivity towards the pain of others.

One of the negative consequences of not fully experiencing our pain, of not being sensitive enough to our own pain, is that it makes us less sensitive to the pain of others and that is never a good thing. And I also think that when you overcome your depression, your pain, that you feel like you're ruined in life, sometimes that's when you really come to understand the word mercy. Because the universe will give you another chance. The universe is like a GPS. He took a wrong turn, he'll just recalibrate. And I believe that when you have felt God's mercy on you, you learn to be more merciful to others.

Sometimes I'm about to judge someone and then I remind myself that I've done much worse, so stop there. I have a question that I think many people in our audience can relate to. I know I have certainly experienced this at times, where on the surface life really seems pretty good and no tragic loss has actually occurred. There is no divorce, there is no illness, but we can feel like a cloud has come over us and we feel depressed and I know from the conversations I've had personally, it's like wait, I shouldn't be depressed. You should be very grateful.

We are aware of the suffering in other parts of this country and the world, people who have it much worse than us. How can I feel so dark and depressed right now? I'm curious to know what you would say. Well, look what you just said. I have everything. I mean, I know other people are hurting, but I should be happy. No, you shouldn't be happy if other people are suffering. That is the point. You know, the whole notion in Buddhism is to pray for the happiness of all sentient beings. That's the point today: If someone gets their head cut off in Iraq but it's on his computer, you could be in Idaho.

That day you will be depressed. As you and I speak, a plane crashed yesterday, they believe it was terrorism. Really take ownership of what happened, of what triggered that invasion of Iraq. If you're looking at the world today and you're not grieving, I don't think you're looking. And the fact that so many people seem to be looking at the world today and not being distressed is not a sign of mental health. The fact that you have yours, you know, it's like Buddha said. Material things, at best, can only bring temporary happiness. So the fact that we are sad sometimes is a sign that we are sensitive human beings.

Paul Hawken has that expression of blessed discomfort. He look at the state of the planet: if we don't turn this around, the entire ecosystem could implode in 20 years. All the... all the nuclear bombs that we not only have but continue to build. The terrible problem we have with terrorism and ISIL and anyone who looks at it from a rational perspective knows that there is no easy answer. The terrible inequalities in the world? And that contrasted with the fact that everything could be so beautiful. That's tragic, it's moving. Just because you feel that way doesn't mean something is wrong with you.

You know, in the book I tell a story about a troop of chimpanzees in Africa and how some anthropologists discovered that there was a small core part of the chimpanzee population in this chimpanzee village called a troop that seemed to exhibit depressed behavior. They didn't eat with the rest of the chimpanzees, they didn't play with the rest of the chimpanzees, they didn't sleep with the rest of the chimpanzees. So these anthropologists thought it was very interesting because it seemed to reflect the human population. So what they did was they took the so-called depressed chimpanzees for 6 months and then they went back to the chimpanzee village, the troop, to see what the effect was of taking all those chimpanzees, the depressed chimpanzees.

You know, and I've asked audiences around the world, what do you think they found? Now that you've read the book, you know what they found. But most people say the answer I usually hear is, "Well, the more chimpanzees, the more they got depressed." What they found was that the entire chimpanzee troop was dead. And what they concluded from that was that the quote about depressed chimpanzees was their early warning system. They were the chimpanzees who could discern that snakes, elephants, storm clouds, earthquakes or tornadoes were approaching. And then the rest of the chimpanzees saw, oh, they're depressed.

We better cover ourselves or whatever. What we have today in society, the fact that people are depressed means that something is wrong, something is wrong. And so it's like we're the canaries in the gold mine... in the coal mine, but what the system is saying is that something is wrong with the canaries. Nothing happens to the canaries. And our suffering should be more than, you know, a profit center for gold manufacturers. So... for drug manufacturers. That's why I think it's very important that we look at our modern civilization and realize how the same organizing principles that dominate life in the modern world repudiate our spiritual nature.

These principles place us as separate and not as one. They propose that short-term economic gains are more important than building a community, than fostering true care for each other, for our children. They make everything external seem more important than what is internal. They have us like hamsters in a wheel, always chasing those things saying they will bring us happiness, and the fact that they don't bring us happiness just means that they can't fundamentally and permanently do so. So recognizing what is deeply wrong both in our individual lives and in the entire world awakens us to what we must do to change it.

Let's talk about the wisest question we can ask when we are deeply sad. You said how can I...? The question is not how can I end or numb this pain immediately? What is the meaning of this pain? What does this pain reveal to me? What calls me to understand? I loved this because it gives us a tool to begin to, I think, reset our thinking. Someone… I lost a sister, I lost both parents, I lost my best friend. I learned that life is short. I learned not to waste time on unimportant things. I remember that on my sister's deathbed I was sitting there, she had a couple of days to live, she was sitting.

My brother was at the end of the bed, I was sitting there and I was overwhelmed realizing we had forgotten to do the brother thing. We didn't like it... we had bullied a brother, a brother and two sisters. Now, if I called my sister a year before, 2 years before, 3 years before and said, "Why don't you, Peter and I have dinner?" She would have said: “Why? “I have kids, Marianne, I don’t have time to go out to dinner with you,” because we were all busy. And I just received it. I understood this...there was something we forgot to fully experience.

When my sister died, I said that my sorrow was not not knowing her more, but not knowing her better. Yes, she died young, but with that mentality I don't think she would have known her better. And... in my life it took the loss of a best friend, it took the loss of a sister to feel it more deeply. This is… don't waste your time. Don't waste time loving people. And also my parents, and this happens to most of us as we get older, it's very transformative that, you know, you're... there's a way for you to not be center stage while one of the parents is alive.

At the end of relationships, headache at the end of the relationship. I've never been to one and I've never seen one where it was all one person's business. Where do you become wiser? What was my part? Where did I not say? You know, today we live in a society where people are always asking you about relationships: "Are you getting what you need?" Instead of “Are you giving everything you have?” So sometimes we disguise ourselves as people with the best intentions and even your support and your counselor, could you be a little more narcissistic here? Or could you be a little more self-centered here?

Could you talk more about yourself here? But really focus on how other people are doing it wrong and, you know, their problems and why you attracted someone like that instead of their therapist probably asking them why they attracted you. So those things are wisdom and they come from experience and sometimes very painful experiences. And then you are better and then you are different. And then you will be ready to move forward in life, without recreating the same old thing, having a more expanded life because your heart and your mind have expanded. What are the spiritual principles that free us from our pain and how can we apply them?

First of all, the understanding that love isreal and nothing else exists. That love is the only thing that matters. Of course... forgiveness is the key to happiness and if you don't forgive... love works miracles. Love is who you are. You can't feel comfortable in your own skin if you're not in the space of who you are. Who you are is love. If I withhold love, if I do not rise to the occasion, if I do not practice mercy, compassion and forgiveness, I cannot be happy. And so when you said that some people say I should be happy, you know, you could live in a palace, but if you're attacking other people, holding on to resentments and grievances, if you're living in the past or the future instead of being present, you cannot be happy.

That's the joke of our society: telling you that you should be, and then you feel like something is wrong with you if you're not, and they tell you that you have a disorder. That's the most important thing now: everyone has a disorder, a depressive disorder, an anxiety disorder. And I'm not being glib, but our entire civilization is an anxiety disorder. Who does not? Something like empathy. And I say this, you know, some people feel like I'm insensitive. You know, I read the book and that's lovely, but who doesn't? Who is not deeply sensitive deep down? Who is not deeply empathetic deep down?

This is something we also get a lot of questions about and I'm sure will come out of this interview. When you have someone that you know and love and they're grieving and they're going through a really hard time. From a spiritual perspective, how can we genuinely support those we love when we know this is something they are going through? You know, I used to joke that I knew the inventory of every gift shop in every hospital in Los Angeles because I hated climbing stairs so much. He was scared. What I'm gonna say? What I am going to do?

Until I realized I was present. It's not what you're going to say or what... it's what you're going to do. And then I also learned that by being around people who were dying, they will minister to you as much as you minister to them. So it's a gift for both you and them. Jews and Catholics have ancient traditions. They are told what to do. Catholicism and Judaism really dominate it. Jews: women start cooking, men do shiva. Catholicism also has many ritual ceremonies. Many Protestants stand still and don't know what to do. And this is one of the ways that, if you're part of an ancient religion or tradition, it really helps to be told what to do.

The ceremony to participate in, etc. Sometimes you'll say to someone, "Did you go to the funeral?" And you'll hear someone say, "No, you know, I'm grieving in my own way." And I want to slap them in the face and say, "It's not about you." They are your wife or husband and her children and you will see that there are people there and that people care. Just stay there. You know, we are women, we know it. You know, you're going through something, you call a friend. "You come?" Yes. Just come here. Just be with me. Be there.

You know, stay with me. Sometimes I... well, sometimes people just say... I've been with people, let's say someone just lost their husband and I'm with another friend and then I say, "I'm surprised you didn't mention it." . .” And they'll say, "Well, I didn't want to bring it up." As if she wasn't thinking about that! It can be very meaningful when people say, “I'm so sorry. I heard about your loss.” Just stay there. There's nothing fancy to do other than say you care. You know, I've been through things in my life, even like we're talking about the campaign for Congress, that I in no way equate to losing a loved one.

But it was so nice that I was walking down the street and someone was saying, “I voted for you and I'm so sorry.” “I’m so sorry you lost.” And there's just… there's nothing like people just saying they care. But we are... we need to be proactive about sad things. Don't try to help people distract themselves from their sadness. Join them in a moment of empathy. Would you be open if we closed with a beautiful prayer from the book? Thank you. I'm honored that you call him beautiful. And you chose one here. I did. It was one that really made me cry...

Thank you, Marie. ...when I first read it. There are many things in the book that I think everyone should read, but this one in particular. Thank you. Yes. Dear God, I give you the pain that is in my heart. I give you my failure, my shame, my loss, my devastation. I know that in you, dear God, all darkness becomes light. Pour your spirit on my mind and help me forgive my past. Make my life start again. Restore my soul and bring me peace. Comfort me in this painful hour so that I can see my innocence and my goodness again.

I have fallen, dear God, and I feel like I can't get up. Please lift me up and give me strength. Put my feet on the path of peace and help me not to go astray again. I pray for forgiveness. I am crushed by my failure. Please show me who I am to you, that self-hatred will not defeat me. Help me remember and claim my good. Help me become who You want me to be and live the life You want me to live so that my tears will no longer exist. Amen. You are a legend. Back to you.

You are not a legend yet because you are not old enough, but you are already a very bright light on the planet. You are one of those people who are called by your first name, Marie. I adore you. Thank you very much… I adore you too. ...for your work, for coming to the program and for continuing to do everything you do. Thanks Maria. I love you. I love you too. God bless you, darling. Now Marianne and I would love to hear from you. What is the most important insight you are gaining from this conversation and how can you turn that insight into action in your own life?

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