Donald Trump, 1998 - BBC HARDtalk

Rich, ruthless and famous, my guest is a New York institution known for the buildings he built and the wives he divorced, but you don't want to upset him because he likes revenge and has made it a rule that no one ever pressures him. How did she lose all his money and then get it back? Donald Trump, a very warm welcome to the program. He says you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. It sounds like a very destructive business philosophy. Alright? I'm not sure. I have actually used those words, but in general you have to change things a lot to be able to do something important and I have changed things and I have had the best business years of my life by far, how difficult business is.

In New York we hear a lot about it being the toughest, roughest, most ruthless business in the world. Well, I think business in New York tends to be more difficult, perhaps, than other places, but I'm not so sure that's true. In the real estate sector. Business in New York is an incredible business, it's a big business and any time you have a big business, you always have competition and, unfortunately, there are always smart, tough people coming in. You have to be a killer in business. I think you have to do it. Be smart in business I don't think you have to be a killer I think you have to be smart Does that mean eyes in the back of your head always watching to see who's going to get you?

Who's trying to pull one off fast? Well, one of the things I say in the book and I say it very strongly is that you have to be paranoid and the book is selling very well and I suppose people believe this, but there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. . Look, you can be a little careful, watch what's going on behind your back and I think that's probably very true in business, if you're paranoid, how much enjoyment is there? I mean, how many times do you have to sit down and say, look what I.

I've done this it's great I think there's great enjoyment I think paranoia can't be brought to a life-shattering crisis point but I think it's good OH we know there are people out there and they're watching and watching. I would like to knock you off your throne, but I believe that success brings great enjoyment and it certainly does for me. Is it competition that turns you on? Is it the money? What gets you out of bed in the morning? What drives you here? I really think it's artistic or aesthetic. I love building big buildings if most of my business is building things, and I agree that I take great artistic pride in a big building like Trump Tower, which is at 57th and Fifth Street.

Avenue. in New York or Trump International Hotel and Tower, my new building on Central Park West, and I have a great sense of artistic enjoyment of those buildings. What do you think of the business methods in this city? I mean, you've been a New Yorker your whole life. life you've lived here, what do you think of the way people do business in the city? Well, I don't think New York is very different from other places, what I do think is that there is a greater energy in New York, there is a greater Verve or a greater Drive maybe in New York than in most other places and really than anywhere else I've seen, but I don't think the business itself is much different in New York than anywhere else greed corruption, I mean you let's say it's a throwaway line in the book, greed is good , well I don't think green is good and as you know they did the famous Earlham with Michael Douglas Wall Street where greed is good but that's not the case I mean I think greed.

It's bad, I think you have to enjoy what you do, if you enjoy what you do you will be successful in general, if you don't enjoy what you do you will almost never be successful. Rich men always are. goals the richer you get I guess the bigger the goal you present to people, how much does that concern you? Well, I think rich men are always targets, rich men are always targets and I think there's a level of celebrity that I've achieved has become so ridiculous now that it makes me an even bigger target, so I always It bothers me, but there's really not much I can do about it.

I mean, ridiculous on every level, well, it's become very difficult to get out. It's very difficult to do things, it's very difficult to even go to a restaurant in a sense because there are always people shaking hands and signing autographs and things like that, and you know it wasn't like that before, that's a symbol of success, right? but it was different success is not necessarily a good symbol, it really causes a lot of problems. I mean, you go out and you want to have dinner at a restaurant with a group of people and it ends up being a big event and you have people.

Waiting at the entrance is a very difficult way to lead a life. I find that you talk in your book about getting revenge. The importance of revenge is sweet revenge. I firmly believe in getting revenge if someone has hurt you, if someone has gotten out of control. his way of hurting you. I think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly do your best to make several of them, and I have received more criticism about that statement in my book than about any other statement: clergy are called ministers. The priests the rabbis have all said what a terrible thing it is to say that it goes against our teachings.

I just believe it. I believe in an eye for an eye if you turn the other cheek, as presumably the clergy are suggesting to you what that would do. to his reputation in business circles here in New York - well, I don't know what it would do to my reputation. I just don't think instinctively and turning the other cheek if someone wanted to hurt you, if someone wanted to do something number on you I really think you should just do a number on them if you have the chance, can you give me an example? Well, there were people that I actually helped in business when things were going very well in the 1980s and when my company was going well and they didn't lift a finger to help me when I needed it and there were a couple of them that could have helped me. helped very easily now I have the opportunity to do it with several of those people and I will tell you that I am having a lot of fun with the opportunity of who are the movers and shakers of society, we have the impression that in New York, Paris, in the hands of a few very, very rich people, you yourself made decisions in smoke-filled rooms, business is still like that.

It took place in this city, well, I think New York is very politically governed. I think we have a mayor named Rudy Giuliani who has done an incredible job in New York. I actually got re-elected and I just got re-elected by a huge margin, I guess the biggest margin he's ever had. It's been an incredible marriage and an incredible job and he's just been great and it's something that starts with the mayor and the leadership and the politicians, we have other people within the business community, obviously, that are very important and there are many of them. . but the city has become very, very hot and I think it's because of Rudy and a lot of people in business who have done a very good job when you say with a more focused heart, it really has become focused, it's just a place where everyone they want to be, people want. to come to New York they love the city they want to be here they want the action you know New York has action New York is amazing action and everyone wants to be here and I happen to be the biggest developer in New York and my company is now I'm doing much better than in the 1980s.

I mean, what do you attribute that to? Well, I think one thing is perseverance. I mean, when things were tough in the early '90s for me and everyone else, the problem with me is that it was getting tougher. all the advertising a Great Depression you call it I call it I call it the Great Depression of the early 90's because we were really in a real estate depression and it was real estate and retail and airlines and various other businesses were in a total depression they didn't They were in a recession and I survived, most people didn't survive, I mean, a lot of my friends, a lot of good people and bad people, they had to go bankrupt and you know, I never heard from him again and you probably never will again. know about him. him again, but you know I survived to a point where the company is much bigger now than it ever was and much stronger financially than it ever was and I wrote a book about it, but in the early '90s you were faced with the possibility of losing it everything, in fact.

On paper you had lost almost everything. I had faced the possibility of losing everything and went back to work. Concentrate. I focused my mental energies and all my energies. He never thought about giving up. No, I think one of the reasons I was really successful and bigger than even in the '80s is the fact that it's a little word called perseverance. I didn't stop as a very low runner, now that I think about it, that's a long word, but I didn't stop and I persevered against many odds. and I came up with a phrase survive until 95 which was in the early 90s and it turned out to be correct because the world changed, the economy changed and there was a survival tactic until a certain year and in 1995 things started to change, but I say it oh really.

It really started to change for me almost from the beginning because I went back to work. I refocused my energies. I'm desperate. Were you there at that time? Well, how depressed did you get to begin with? I really blame myself a little because I've always been able to choose markets and I wasn't really focused towards the end of the 80s because I was having too much fun. I was enjoying my life too much. Things were going too well. You left your god. I let my guard down and it's no different than you if you do 15 great interviews, you know you're on the 16th, you can take it easy because well, that happens in life, it's a human trait and I let my guard down and what I did was I raised my guard. reputation. my guard and we raised my defenses and my offense is much stronger than it ever was in the 80s and I worked probably harder than in the 70s and 80s and I was actually much more successful, you have to believe in your own abilities, it wasn't like that .

There was a time when you thought I couldn't really fix it. I should get out of this. Well, that wasn't right for this. There were some pretty depressing moments because I owed billions and billions of dollars. Approximately 975 million were personally guaranteed and that is. a pretty deep hole and when you're in that much debt you're deep in debt and you're in that much debt and that's a pretty tough situation and the vultures are circling around you, well, you had a lot of vultures. There were a lot of bad people hanging around and some good people who, frankly, wanted to get paid, but it was just downtime, as they say in Georgia, and I did it.

Did you learn any lessons about the people who were your friends and the people? who weren't your friends I wrote once unless they were painful and I once wrote that I would love to have a bad financial period just to see who would be my friends and who would be my enemies now never write it again because it is not fun to fulfill the prophecy on your own, well, that's Joanna, so I don't want to rewrite it. I wrote it once and I had that period of depression and that period of depression. I learned a lot, I learned a lot about myself, but I will tell you that I also found out that there are very good friends for me and there were some people who did not help me tell me about the women in your life because it seems to be the sense in which you say in the book that you have measured women by your mother, well, I have a wonderful mother, a great mother, and I am not saying that I measure women by my mother, but I have a woman in my mother who is a wonderful woman and I have been married with two very nice women, but it just wasn't that way.

It doesn't work and I think part of that is that one of the negative aspects of success is that there are a lot of obstacles in your way in terms of your relationship, first of all, but even your own mental psyche, I mean, my thing is I'm thinking in bids and I'm thinking about these big buildings all over the place and you know I'm doing and building the biggest job ever approved by the New York City Westside Planning Commission, you know it's a thought process, there's a lot of things that I'm doing and building and I'm thinking about that, maybe as opposed to the relationship.

I don't say it in a positive way, I say it almost in a negative way because it is very negative in terms of relationship and success can be great. in terms of life and lifestyle and beautiful houses and apartments and boats and planes and all the things that don't mean much but success is not necessarily very good for a relationship women are much stronger than men you say you really believe that I think that women are actually stronger than men and I actually say that they are not much stronger, but I think that they are more aggressive than men and their sexual impulses make us look like babies.

I think women's sex drive is actually just as good. or greater than men's sex drive Anna and I mean, I've witnessed it and maybe you have if you're lucky, but women's sex drive is extraordinary and they like to portray themselves as the weaker sex, but the weaker sex no. There is no such thing, believe me, I think there is probably sex moreaggressive and even in business I found that some women are just more aggressive and I don't know exactly why and I say that with respect, I don't say that with contempt. With anything else I say it with great respect but I believe that women in many cases are more aggressive than men.

Have you seen first-hand that sexual desire? You talk about the woman of great social pedigree and the dinner you went to tell me about that well-being. I've had, I've had many circumstances where a woman's sex drive has turned out to be just extraordinary and not necessarily anticipated by me and I write about this in the book and it's pretty good, it was really dinner in the Pacific, although isn't it? It was like this? It was a specific dinner and it went well. I'd rather let the book talk about it because, to be honest, it's almost embarrassing.

Talking about it in an interview, but because it's really primarily a business book, I think women have a lot to do with business, they have a lot to do with the effect on your life and how they affect your life to a large extent. What to do with that, she embarrassed you, although this woman I mean you don't name her in the book, but she doesn't know that I would never name her. Someone else wrote a book and named all the women he had, like he said, he agreed and explained with his feet under the table, yes, it was and it was quite a deal and it led to something that was kind of interesting and just It wasn't a very good thing, especially with her husband sitting across the table. and there are many cases like this and I talk about them in the book and they are interesting, it is not what the book is about, but success and, frankly, women greatly influenced you, the world and the world around you .

I spend a lot of time with women, in the book you say that women have one of the great acts of all time, the intelligent ones act very feminine and needy but inside they are true killers, you also have almost a kind of love-hate relationship with women well, maybe I want to say that I mainly have a love relationship with one because I totally admire respect and love women. I think they're amazing, but I really feel like there's one. I feel like the smart ones are the ones who really go out and do it without waving the flag of women's liberation and if you look at the really successful women, those are the ones who haven't waved that big banner, they just went out and did it with both wives. that you had.

Ivana and Marla do what do you think of them now? I have good relationships with both. I've had fights. You are in a continuous fight with one of them. At the time the book was being written, I mean, Look, I'd rather be able to address that question later because right now I have a very good relationship with Ivana. I think I have a very good relationship with Marla, but I will be able to tell you better in about a month or two, we will find out that you emphasize the importance of the prenuptial agreement even though you say that it is a cruel and ugly document and that the people who sign it They are 50% more likely to divorce than those who don't, but you still emphasize this.

Is this the key to a happy marriage? Alright? Well, prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious, terrible documents to have. I mean, if you are going to get married and if you are a person of substance, a man or woman of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement and the reason is the word certainty, you need certainty about your business, you cannot spend 10 years fighting for a prenuptial agreement. divorce you need certainty and you just have to have a prenup and even when you have it you have battles, as you've shown, it's not foolproof when you do it, I mean even when you have a prenup, it's pretty foolproof, but they still fight and people will continue to fight for prenuptial agreements, I mean the dozens of people who have fought for more than their prenuptial agreements have given them our Legion, but you know, the prenuptial agreement shows a very strong agreement.

Send wait for the romance to be taken away. If she does. It's always hard to walk up to someone and say, "You know, I love you." a lot, but if we get divorced, this is what you're going to get, so you know, would you agree that it's always very difficult, it's a very unromantic agreement, there's nothing good about a prenuptial agreement, but from a standpoint practical and living in this world and living in a very difficult court system and everything else, I think it's absolutely necessary for someone to have one and I mean, so important that I actually devote a chapter of the book to prenuptial agreements, so you think that if you can solve the Finances that somehow the relationship will take care of itself I think finances and relationship are very different than a good I think finances Great success often leads to a bad relationship Unfortunately I think the reason why What someone can become successful is that the focus is on their success, their success not necessarily on their relationship, but I think there are times when both can work wonderfully and that is if you get the right partner and getting the right partner is a very important. in life I mean having the right partner can be a very beautiful thing in life if you are lucky enough to do it taking a break from romance now in a way I am I am not I am certainly not number one in my mind I am having a lot of fun doing what I'm doing is just not number one in my mind I'm glad I'm free I'm actually available instead of others we advertise now I wouldn't like to advertise it because I think there's nothing like having a great relationship I think having a great relationship is more important than agreements and more important than everything else.

I think doing business is very easy for me. Relationship is always something much more difficult and I found that historically that has been the case for most. People would say it's the opposite, it's easier to be in a relationship. I think that relationship is based on so many different things that are adverse to business and I think having that great relationship doesn't necessarily go with having that great business most important to you seems to be your children, it's true, this matters a lot to you, yes, I have wonderful children and they are very important to me and I think that's one of the great things that came out of both relationships and their parents are still very close.

I am very close to my parents, I have a great relationship with them. How did they inspire you in business? because your father was a businessman he is a businessman my father was a builder in Brooklyn and Queens he built moderate income housing and some low income housing he was very good at what he did he was a true professional and I learned a lot just sitting on his knees, you know, listening to him since I grew up and learned a lot about negotiation. I learned a lot about building, I learned a lot about business, and even though he was on a different level in terms of the type of things he did, he still built and built, you know, some really good things, built some jobs in Brooklyn and Queens in the boroughs. of New York for low and moderate income people and you know he did a very good job with what he told me about your friends because you count some of the best-known people in the world among your friends.

There was a dinner you attended. with Michael Jackson that you described in the book tell me about that because he seemed almost lost when you took him to a restaurant lost looking at a menu what do you remember from that night? Well, Michael Jackson was literally, I mean, he's really good. guy and he's having a hard time, but he was literally going to go to a restaurant and we went to La Cirque, the great Lacerte and with Syrio and Michael they were sitting at the table and he was just like he had never been in a restaurant before no he knew about menus he didn't know about things it was just and I told him the last time you were in a restaurant and he said many many years ago and I could believe that was true because he was so depressed, it's just that restaurants aren't his thing, did you have to wonder about him?

I mean, he did well. I'm just saying I just wasn't someone who was exposed to this kind of life and it was really interesting that at the circus there were these big celebrities and they had never asked for an autograph and they liked people asking them for autographs and they would come up to my table. to ask Michael for his autograph, that for me was the most fun part of the night. Sylvester Stallone, another friend of yours, you get along very well with him, he's a great guy, he's a good golfer, he's a very smart guy, you know, people don't give him clever credit for brains, they give him other credits, but Don't give him credit for that, he's a very smart guy who's done a fantastic job and I mean Yin, he insisted on playing Rocky, they were going to have someone else play Rocky, I wouldn't let it go without him playing, I mean to this guy.

He's smart and tough and he's a fantastic guy and you had a fight with Frank Sinatra at one point, right? things about Frank and in my second book, I mean, he was, he's been a fantastic guy his whole life, it's all there, well, he was very rough and tough at a table with someone who wasn't me, with someone at the table. table, meaning his wife and me. I was very surprised, I mean, I've seen a lot of things, so I don't get triggered that easily, but I was surprised at how serious this particular incident was. was and then I realized, I mean, you go outside and everyone's pulling on his coat strings trying to get his autograph and trying to take him down one way or another and it really was quite difficult from a lot of points of view and as I mellowed When I got to my third book I said, you know, I feel bad writing about him and I did the same thing with Malcolm Forbes.

I mean, Malcolm Forbes was a great guy and a friend of mine, but when he was having problems, Forbes magazine put me on the cover. and they started doing some negative stories and everything else and I didn't feel good about Malcolm Forbes and then I realized that he was just doing his thing, he was just doing his job, he was doing the right thing and I apologized to Malcolm Forbes because he was really just doing his thing and you know Malcolm Forbes has since died and New York City has lost a great guy and a great character.

The impression from what you write is that you have not had good press, you have not enjoyed relationships. with the press you think the press is deceiving you you are lying well I think it is an occupational hazard or you think they have treated you very badly I think it is work related there is a lot of press that is very dishonest I think that a lot of the press is really very dishonest, but I think that I have totally been, you see, most people think I get a lot of publicity. I think I get terrible publicity, so you know what it can save.

Do you care what people write? I used to worry about myself. Tell me about yourself. I used to care a lot more. One thing I have learned is that it is a one-week phenomenon. It doesn't matter at the end of the week, usually at the end of the day, but usually at the end of the week it disappears completely. You don't even remember the story and once you have it in your head you can live with it the lessons you have learned in your career. Nobody, nobody leans on you. You've focused a lot on that. Well, I think so.

I think I help people. I like people. I have a good relationship with people. I have very good relationships in terms of business and in terms of people in general. I'll try to lean on you, yes everyone tries to lean on me, but I have. I have very good relationships and I don't mind being supported if it is to help someone. I think I really enjoy helping people at high and low levels. I feel it is very important to donate to charities. I give a lot. money for charities, I try to help as much as I can, but you know there are times when you just have to say enough is enough, that's all I can do, they might even look at you and think to themselves: I wonder what it's like Having it all.

Not that money, what is it like to have all that money? Well, money doesn't buy happiness and it doesn't buy many other things, but it certainly makes life easier and it really creates, it allows me to create what I want to do. artistically because I am an artist in a sense. I'm an artist. I built the largest buildings in the world. I am the largest developer in New York City. I love what I'm doing and I lift great things and I have money and having the kind of access to money that I have allows me to do what I love to do most and if someone said I want to be Donald Trump, what would I say?

I would say good luck, Donald Trump, thank you very much for sharing your views with us on our talk thank you very much thank you very much a great honor for you