Designing Your Life with Bill Burnett | RachReflects Episode 15

Hello everyone, welcome to the next

episode

of this week's Rage Reflex. I am very excited and honored that you will meet a good friend, a mentor, Bill Burnett, here with us today. Hello Bill. Hello how are you? It's so good to be here. well and I'm very happy I'm very excited to be with you today for those of us who have been following the retroflex community for a while, you would know that

bill

is no stranger last year, he very generously did a workshop virtually online. for many of us about how to design

your

life

well, so Bill is widely known for his best-selling book Designing Your Life, which I also have signed here, which really revolutionized the way we approach personal development by applying design principles. to our lives.

This innovative approach. He has also helped many people around the world navigate career transitions, discover their passions, and also create lives that align with our purpose and values, so his follow-up book, Designing Your Work Life, goes deeper into the application of the principles of design thinking in order to improve. our work experiences and foster a sense of purpose professionally, so Bill, welcome back to the show and for those of us who are new to you, share with us a little bit about

your

self, what you do and what you're passionate about. right, right, um, well, the design class of your

life

started in 2007, when I met with Dave Evans, the guy who wrote books, and we were trying to figure out how to help our students launch, you know, the students Stanford students are smart, but they don't do it.

I don't know anything, you know what I mean, they don't know about the world, so we just organized a little class for that and that really blew up, now there are classes for freshmen, sophomores and seniors and now even for MBA students and postgraduate. The students and Dave teaches at a program for retirees called the distinguished Career Institute at Stanford. People return to Stanford for an adult gap year and try to figure out how to restart. He was always a curious and strange child. I like to draw a lot and I like, you know, I've had a lot of you know drawing and fantasy worlds and things that I created and then I was also interested in science, engineering and mathematics, so when I got to Stanford, there was really this.

A cool program called product design, which is engineering plus psychology plus art plus anthropology, it's really cool, it's very broad, so I found my people, I found my thing, yeah, I tried it, yeah, and then when I graduated , my first job was

designing

Star Wars toys and I had to do the first second movie and the third movie and then I got to work on Raiders of the Lost Ark. Wow, and it's crazy because the new and final Raiders movie just came out and it was 41 years ago, I think. Gosh, I'm so old, but then I had the opportunity to create startups and I was at Apple for several years.

But all that time I was teaching because we like interns to teach in our program and then in 2006, after a lot of part-time teaching experiences, David Kelly called me. David is the guy who founded Ido, the big international innovation consulting firm, and I was just starting D School at our Institute at Stanford and he said to me. Hey, you know you've been teaching a lot part-time. Have you ever thought about coming full time? So in 2006 I took a full-time job as an undergraduate executive director in the graduate program. So I was applying. the programs that I graduated from were a lot of fun and then we were improving them, we were improving them and really expanding them and this idea of ​​design thinking was taking hold around the world and then yeah and then 2007 Dave and I said, well, what?

Isn't it your life? You are

designing

your life as if it were your future. Isn't it like designing a new product? I mean, no one knows what the new product will be, so we have to prototype it, we have to get started. with empathy because I spend a lot of time teaching designers how to design things like iPhones and Macintoshes and websites and stuff, but it's the same principle because when you try to invent something new you can't use your typical engineering principles because I don't have any data, it's new, it's brand new, it's never been done before, when Dave and I wrote the first book, it came out in 2016, a lot of other universities called us and said, hey, this is cool, can we do it? and we said.

Sure, so we put together a program and basically gave away the curriculum to any school that wanted it and we have about 350 universities now teaching the class around the world. We now have the Designing Your Life Institute Limited in Singapore. - recorded earnings, we launched it last week, it seems like the universe wants people to design their lives and I'm just helping, yeah, and we're so grateful for the work you and Dave do. I think it has really reached Asia for sure. and this part of the world where I think a lot of us are also becoming much more intentional about creating the life that we want and we were created in the first place to even live and you absolutely know that and um, I teach at a research university, so that we track a lot of research and things in the book are all based on research, but one of the things is that particularly this generation is the most purpose-driven generation and the generation that is not just about making money. it's cool but they don't just want to make money they want to have some impact so my students are interesting if you know I've been teaching for a while so back in the '90s and early 2000s all my students they wanted to do startups I want to make money and now my students are more like I don't want to be I want to have an impact I want to do something socially yes give back to the social entrepreneur yes I want I want you to know how to create solutions for problems I want I want to build organizations that are healthy I think the Gen season things have a bit of a reputation for being difficult to manage or not, you know they like to do what they're supposed to do. you just know, do the right thing, but that's not all.

You know my students will work 100 hours a week on something that they're passionate about or excited about or believe in, but you have to be able to connect the work to something bigger than just money, yeah, um, and for a lot of older managers, workers , managers and people who run companies, you know, who have been in this rut ​​of money, success, money, success, money, success, they don't understand, I think the desire of Generation Z to have a meaningful life, but you know , I think it's also part of our times, I mean, look at all the problems we face, climate change, you know, race riots in the US, but we have wars again in We have Europe, you know, we have Failed states, we have an energy crisis, we have a demographic crisis.

I mean, if you are a young person today, you are smart and capable, you want to work on difficult problems. I just want to get a job, yeah, you know, a normal job and yeah, be a worker, yeah, now you know when you're young and you don't have a family, it's more about your personal impact, but we work with a lot of people. Who are you? You know, their 30s and 40s, their families, their houses, their mortgages and all the other things that come with it, designing your life is really for any age. Yes, we started particularly because I have a real soft spot in my heart for young students who are graduating in the world right now and trying to find their way in a way that is meaningful.

I wanted to ask you also as someone who has seen them and also guided students through the different generations so far, what some of the key trends are. or differences that you have seen in addition to the fact that today you know that what people are looking for goes beyond just looking for money. Yes, a fun part of my job is that I work with 18-22 year olds all the time. They just keep coming, they seem to get younger and younger. I don't know why I'm the same age. I feel like I'm the same age, but you know, when I started teaching in '84, they were 20 to 18 to 22 years old.

They're still 18 to 22 years old and I, you know, I'm at least 41 years older according to the book Raiders of the Lost Ark, they're my grad students, you know, I've worked a little bit, they're going back to grad school. get a master's degree in design, so they're 26 27 28. They're completely different from 18 year olds, like 18 year olds, all tick tock and you know, social media and the latest news and I always ask, hey. What do you have? What do you have on your phone? Show me, show me, show me and then I put it on my phone and then we know I was chatting with Evan, one of Bill's students was Evan Spiegel, uh, the founder of Snapchat, yeah, yeah. when they started it was called peekaboo, yes, but anyway, I can stay young because I can see what my students are working on and, in the graduate students, they don't know anything about Tick Tock, yes, and they are only eight years old. six seven years older, you know, these things are happening very quickly, but in terms of general trends, there is a trend towards social entrepreneurship versus just making money, this is probably the loneliest generation we've ever raised, this is the most anxious . generation, the US Surgeon General, the head of the US healthcare system, said last month that the number one healthcare problem in the United States is social media, not diabetes , not heart attacks or anything else, social media because it's creating this kind of a place of loneliness and alienation and constantly feeling like you're being compared to someone else and um and the negative impacts on young people, particularly my students, are really significant, so you know, this is the highest rate of depression and anxiety we've ever had. on campus, in some cases, the highest suicide rate, luckily we've been pretty good there, but in general at universities around the world, as much as social media can create connections between people, sometimes it also does make people feel alone, yes, one of the principles of design is empathy and learning to really understand yourself, but there's a dark side to that is really learning to manipulate yourself to keep you scrolling and moving, you know, to keep you in the loop. application, etc. those apps monetize your attention, that's their goal, so their designers are really trying to make them addictive, yes, and at the same time, they're unhealthy.

I also teach the ethics module in our program. One of the case studies I use is that your designer and your social media and you're trying to design this to be highly addictive, but you know if people are very addicted to this app, they're scrolling through Doom all the time, the Things that algorithms select are yes, sensational. and horrible and you know, yeah, you know, any controversial topic, then you know you're having a negative impact on someone's mental health, it's that ethics

bill

, so what's the worst and maybe the most dangerous advice you've ever had? heard right?

You and I were talking about this there are two questions that I really don't like adults asking kids, yeah, you know that, or even you know that when you're young, since you go to college or whatever. The first is: what do you want to be when you grow up and although it is not, it is not a bad question the question each question comes with a certain point of view, this point of view is when you grow up you are done now you are a banker or a lawyer or something like that and that's it You don't have to worry about it anymore, but that's not how life works and, in fact, it would be horrible if I rephrased the question: does growing up mean you're no longer curious, you're no longer learning, you're no longer changing, and and become the person you want to become, then that's a silly question.

I don't want to, I never want to grow up, is my answer and I probably never have. I probably never did. I was always the kid who didn't pay attention in school. and there are always dreams or scribbles or something like that, so the question that is reframed is what do you want to be, what do you want to become, you know as your life develops, because what I wanted to be at 18 is not what that I wanted to be. at 30, which is not what I wanted to be at 45 or 50, right, and once you have children and children, your life changes, so this whole idea of ​​growing up as a fixed end point, you know, I think It's destructive that I really realized that my students are just young people struggling with someone who will say, well, you know what you should do.

Rachel, you should follow your passion and you're 18 or 19 and doing well. No, I don't have a passion. I really don't have I don't know why I don't know what my passion is or I have many things I'm passionate about, which one should I choose? You know, I care about climate change, I care about social justice, I care. on women's issues, so we go back to the research and there's a wonderful researcher at Stanford, Bill Damon, who wrote a book called Path to Purpose because he studied this, he studies adolescence and his research has been that other people have come to the same thing. conclusion approximately 20 years ago.

The percentage of people have apassion that they can identify early in their lives and that is useful, and 80 of the people can't, so I hate a question, like getting in line, okay, eight out of ten people. You don't have a passion, but stay there, yeah, when you have a passion, come back and I'll help you, it's like, well, that's horrible, yeah, if eight out of ten people can't answer the question, but the question comes from a adult, so you think well, I'm supposed to know the answer, you feel bad and then, and then feeling that sets you back on your journey instead of helping you move forward, so look, Dave and I are for to live passionately, to live in yourself, to know your life and to design it so that it is always new and different and you and you discover your passion.

There's other research, a guy named Cal Newport and his thing was like Passions arise after you've become good at something or passions arise as you become the mature adult that you become and you realize where your strengths are or where and your goals become clearer, even in neuroscience a complete prefrontal cortex is not formed. until your late 20s, yes men, much later, so by the way, don't marry any man under 30 because your prefrontal cortex is not yet underdeveloped, yes, your ability to make good decisions is not as good when under 30 years old. So we know. We don't really become adults until our mid-30s, so asking an 18-year-old to follow his passion and making him feel like something is wrong with him is the 20th of what people who say they have a passion usually shows up. in the Arts I'm passionate about singing I'm passionate about dancing I want to be a dancer I want to be a dancer I want it to be a son I'm an artist I'm a designer I'm not and we discourage those kids because we say, well, that's not a real thing, that's not a real career, you can make a good living, you can't make a good living doing that, so even the kids who have a passion that get discouraged feel like they're doing something wrong and they're just the ones who can persist or the ones who have wonderful, amazing parents who say: you know if that's what you want to do let's see what happens yeah let's go for it Bill I want to expand too.

Later on in what you talked about, do you know if following your passion is bad advice and dangerous advice that I completely agree with? I think discovering our passion is a lifelong project for me, right, it's an experiment in constant exploration, so what should be the advice for the young people of today or just for us too Dave and I have been talking a lot of this because we're starting to think that maybe there's another book that's even bigger than designing your life, the Follow Your Passion advice, or what you want. be when you grow up or you choose one thing and you know it and then you are it and then you know it if you come to this you have made it in your life and you are successful this is all we call it is kind of in the transactional, do the right thing and you will end up in the right place, but that's not the way with Life Works, life is a process as you say, it's a process in which I want to grow and find my passions. be curious curiosity is a process.

I'm curious about a lot of things and then people teach me a lot of things and then I find that to be really interesting. Now I'm curious about these other things simply because as soon as I learn one. What I'm curious about next with all these questions or any kind of you know, or choice, you know, work-life balance, are you going to work or can you have life, what's the meaning or money, all of these, all of these binaries. . They are just not true, life is a process, there is no work-life balance, it's just life, life, there is life at work and how you show up at work and what you learn and how you contribute and there is life in your world with your maybe your partner, family or your community, so learn to live in the world of the process where everything develops and get out of this world of transactions where it's like winning losing, you know a b black white what I think We've been able to do in some of the books are just the name of this process, they put a little framework around it to help people understand it, yes, because I think a lot of people feel that way, but they're not encouraged to think, They are encouraged to think well, they will be judged. by how much money you make or you will be judged by how important your work is, yeah, and then I meet these people in my workshops and they are really sad and unhappy because there is no value in just money and status.

All the research says money and status won't make you happy, yes happiness comes from relationships, it comes from the inside out not from the outside in, yes I don't care what other people tell me about my life, yeah, if I'm not sorry, then then it doesn't matter, I think what you're saying is also relevant and related to, you know, even books or articles like the five regrets of the dying, where the biggest regret is, you know, I was never able to live the life I wanted. I have always lived a life that people expected or society expected of me.

You'll never see top five things, you know. Progressive dying boy. I wish I had made more money. New York Times columnist David Brooks is onto something. about the virtues of the eulogy versus the virtues of the resume, it's your eulogy after you die, when all your friends are standing there and saying nice things about you, don't you expect them to say something? Well, Rachel was a kind person, she helped people and she was really dedicated to the Society of creating communities that are healthy and supportive or you want people to say yes. Rachel made a lot of money and she was always on time to her meetings and her PowerPoint presentations were really good.

Who wants that? That's terrible praise, you know? Bill arrived on time and made good power points. No, I want them to say that I was a good father. He wanted to say that he was a friend. I want them to say you know I was there when they needed me so no one ever says you know. in all five he regrets anything related to status, real estate, money or material power, what drives me crazy is when someone makes a lot of money and suddenly we want to know what they think about everything, so you know that Elon Musk makes a lot of money now we want to know what he thinks about politics.

I think he may be smart about cars and rockets, but I don't know if he knows anything about politics, and I think Bill is also about reframing our minds and perspectives on what's going on. At the end of the day, it's really important what his definition of a successful life is. Most of the time people get stuck in problems and don't realize that you can simply change the problem and then unlock new solutions, new possibilities, so this idea of ​​reframing so you reframe from status to relationships, you reframe money to love Yes, you have to do transactional things, you have to buy your groceries, you have to know, you know, go to school, get your grades, that's fine, but you reframe transactional things to process.

Things like being in flow or being in, you know, being in the realm of love and generosity, those are the things that will make a life meaningful, so Robert Waldinger just gave a wonderful Ted Talk about this Harvard study. , who is 95 years old. They study and will continue now with the children and grandchildren of the first people who studied and studied everything in the 50s. They were sure it was IQ. IQ would predict success and longevity. There's no correlation, you know, in the '70s and '80s they thought it would be education and status and there's no correlation with longevity what correlates with longevity living a happy life living a meaningful life and actually living longer and being healthy longer relationships relationship who you love who loves you what are you like?

Family, what do you do for people other than yourself? What we're trying to do is get people to change their mindset from a scarcity mentality like "I just have to get as much as I can for myself because there's not enough, there's always a winner is the abundance mentality, yeah , there is enough for everyone, all we have to do is participate and there is always more than one way, there are always three or more and if you start with the mindset of curiosity you will discover things that you don't even know if there was a key skill or characteristic that you believe which is even more important so I think it's the growth mindset along with curiosity and then tenacity or courage or something like don't give up, yeah It's not going to be easy one of the reasons why all the.

The world does what it's supposed to do is that's the easy way, go to school, get a good job, a good job at the bank, you know, get promoted three times, you know, buy a nice car. , you know, it's like that, it's not, it's not difficult, I mean, it's difficult, but it's not, it's the obvious path and when you go off that path you're taking a certain amount of risk and maybe it will be a little bit more. rugged than the straight road. Although I'm telling you the straight path now, with companies restructuring and laying off people, I'm not sure the straight path is riskier and less risky than your personal path once you have a growth mindset and ask questions. . about what's going on, it inevitably leads you to choose slightly different things as you go along and it only takes a small amount of changes in your course to end up, you know, 20 years later in a really new place for my students and certainly , and even for people like mid-career workshops in their 30s and 40s, they are thinking about pivoting.

I mean, don't you expect that in 10 years you'll be doing something that you could never even imagine doing? doing something I could never have imagined and it's so much more interesting than the silly ideas I had of what I thought was going to happen. I was also stubborn. You know, you have to hold on tight too. Yes, holding on too tight. So there he is. obvious path and it seems like it is the least risky, but in reality it is not because you could give your soul and that is quite risky and then there is the other path, which is more your path, the correct path that can be followed and that will certainly be more interesting and if it requires some introspection, I just did a program for the group we're partnering with and there was a speaker before me and he said that and he's been a 20 year veteran of Microsoft 20.

One year veteran of Autodesk, a great entrepreneur, but he wrote this book about his own personal journey and someone asked him what the most important characteristic of a CEO is and he said self-awareness. I think it's the most important characteristic for any human being because I mean. self-awareness if you work on your own self-awareness you realize your flaws you realize your strengths but you see yourself as a complete human right and he said that for a CEO self-awareness is the number one characteristic because that's how the CEO grows , yes, and it grows the organization, one of the reasons you know you are a huge inspiration to me is because you truly live what you teach and preach.

I think at this stage in your life, for example, you could have easily done that. You know how to enjoy life in the sense that you know how to retire and enjoy time with your grandchildren, but you still choose to constantly push the limits, whether they are your personal limits or your professional limits, to see what more you can give to the world to make an impact. . what keeps you active I mean, I'm a theater guy, I have some friends that are retiring and I tell them what you're going to do and they go, I don't know, it's like that, it's like I can't, I can't.

I even imagine that I learned a lot and I really enjoy being in a classroom trying to teach people how to think about design and design cool things, design, you know, cool new computers or whatever, so that's one endless story because now I want to say. When I started in design, we were still at the drawing boards and getting to know the person. Now you can. Now you can. I can build something on a laptop, print it on a 3D printer, have it, have it in a store and you know in a day. It's just the way technology is advanced, our ability to think and design, you know, now we're with these new AI engines and these language models.

Otherwise, we can really accelerate human creativity. There's a guy who wrote a book called James Cars. finite and infinite games and I'm playing the infinite game the infinite game is the game you play and when the game starts to end you change the rules wow to keep the game going and you know a child's game is love and the infinite game is learning yeah , an infinite game is curiosity because as soon as I learn something, I change the rules and find something else to learn. I have a grandson and granddaughter on the way in the next month or so. raising children was very fun, very difficult and exhausting and now grandchildren, I mean, that's a completely different game, it's a different path, it's a completely different role, so I love finding all these new roles and even when I think I already I controlled it. about things, things are changing so fast now people ask me what's going to happen to designers with AI.

Don't know. I think the designers will be thepeople who embrace it and use it to amplify human creativity because that's fundamentally what I'm doing. What we're trying to do at The Institute and what Mark and I are trying to do is help people with their creative confidence so that everyone feels like they have creativity that they can draw on to have a better life, and you know, Bill , which you have Also, throughout your career, you know you've created great products, what are some of the key principles that you know through the experience you've had as a product designer that you think are so relevant to helping other people to build their own lives?

I love designing physical things because then when you're done you have something right. Yeah, a lot of my students are doing digital design, which is great, it's another way of expressing yourself, but I remember I did a lot of projects, but then when I went to Apple and we did it. I did my first Apple project and I ended up in the factory and this thing that we had designed, there was a production line that was as far as you could see and then you walked into a warehouse and there were, you know, boxes on pallets, hundreds of boxes on pallets of this product. and I thought, wow!

My team did that and millions of people will use it and maybe it will improve their work or whatever, so I see students graduate from life design classes and they're confident and they have a plan and they know how to do it. prototype things and they're thinking much more broadly than they used to be, they're not just following the predetermined path that their parents wanted or wanted or that someone told them to do now instead of walking into a factory and seeing you know, products that you know come off a production line. I can see people who are more interesting and who have adopted a mentality that I think will help them in their life, so the mentalities are curiosity and we talk about that already radical collaboration because the answers in the world with people you have to be with people there is where relationships are created.

I'm reframing that idea of ​​not getting stuck on a problem, changing the problem, leaning into action because action is what makes the whole system work, you know? When, especially for you, when you're constantly recreating your path in your life, have you ever felt afraid? Oh yeah, and what's up, what are you doing? I think fear is the number one thing that holds people back, right? They are afraid of being different or they are afraid. won't work well I get nervous all the time when I have to talk or something or I have to do a class because and it's just because it's just a even after all this yeah, yeah, it's just a reaction, but I don't do it.

I don't pay attention to it, so it just disappears. There have been times, especially in this project in Singapore, I thought well, this is not going to work or this is going to be too difficult or what people say they want to support. They support us, but they don't, we don't, they're not really going to make it, but none of that turned out to be true, so what I noticed is that most of my fears, if I really look at them, if I have self-awareness, Most of my fears are made up, and one technique a therapist taught me was, "Well, okay, then, I want you to sit down and write down for 10 minutes what are the worst things that could happen." happen, it's the worst thing that could happen on this project, what's the worst thing that could happen with this problem that you're having and I really mean, really write down the worst and most extreme thing that you can do and write down that list and write it down. everything and you I think the goal, uh, in this exercise is just to exhaust all the possibilities, so you're not constantly thinking that something bad is going to happen, okay, this could happen, this could happen, it was a lot of money could people might embarrass me it might hurt a lot of people who thought that was going to work and it didn't I should write them all down and then you look at it and almost 100 of the time it comes out right First of all that's not that bad and second of all , it's not going to happen, and that has helped me calm my fears.

I'm a big, scared cat. I was I was the shy kid on the playground. He was the last child chosen for the team. I'm always afraid that they won't accept me or something, but you know, I also know that that was me when I was nine or ten years old. That's not me anymore. I don't describe it anymore. I'm a shy person and what you shared really reminded me: you know this exercise that Tim Ferriss says we should all do, in addition to setting goals, which a lot of us talk about a lot, but it's also setting fear, where, like you said, writing what are the worst things or scenarios that can happen.

I heard you talk about that, yeah, and I think that's absolutely helpful as well and before I end with Bill, I also wanted to ask you what's maybe one piece of advice that you have for those. of us who seek to recreate or reinvent Our Lives we may be stuck we may be afraid we may know that we are settling or we know that we have much more to give but we simply do not know where to do it start well what advice do you have for us the way to start is pick something really simple, the whole thing in the second book is set in Barlow, everyone's trying to be awesome and everything, and that's fine, but you hit Awesome right at the start.

If you look at the psychology of behavior change, if people want to lose weight or they want to get fit or they want to run a marathon, if you try to do something too big, it won't work because you know. If you say it's okay, it's January. January 1. I'm going to run a marathon this year. Nothing you can do in the next three months is anything like a marathon because you're not even doing 10,000 steps on your phone yet, so you have to rest. Summarizing it in simple things is good to have a goal like I want to change the world, but how can I change the world? but first I have to change myself, well how do I change myself?

Well, I'm going to start eating healthier. I'm going to do more I'm going to walk more I'm going to do something so that we know, because of you, know the science of studying thousands and thousands of people and how they make changes happen, get rid of negative triggers, break it down. small tasks reward yourself every time you complete something don't beat yourself up because you're only going to complete 80 of the tasks you said anyway so don't beat yourself up that's the statistic if you do six or seven out of ten you're amazing our Stanford colleague BJ Fogg wrote a book called Little Habits.

I think there's another book called Atomic Habits that are also small, so follow that advice because it's really good, it's really good research during covid. Not my wife and I, we're pretty sedentary and we weren't doing anything, we thought this is not good, we want to be mobile and, you know, vigorous when we get older, we hired a nutritional coach and a fitness trainer, and they all said the same thing. let's start very slow and showing your phone bill you're doing you're not even doing 4000 steps let's see if we can get to five, let's see if we can get to ten, let's see if we can get to fifteen, that little set to celebrate the little victory , do the Tim Ferriss exercise on yourself, um no, call Young, the psychologist.

I think his greatest contribution to psychology was that there is your personality and then there is your dark side, there is always the negative. and until you integrate the negative and the positive together, you are not fully a person, so accept your negative, accept your Shadow, all you can't get rid of it. This has been great. Thank you very much for your generosity ensuring your wisdom as well. and most importantly, thank you for the work you do, especially now in our part of the world and in Singapore. We are very excited to see how we can learn more from you too, where can we find you on social media or on your website yes, so the Institute website is simple, it is designing your life dot Institute um in Singapore, the site of Stanford where we run our lab and our research is just, I think it's just called designingyourlife.stanford.edu or something like that Mark and I We're starting a tick tock channel, so let's surprise, this is really a growth mindset, yeah , and then, you know, we'll be, we'll be on social media a little bit, but don't do it too much on social media. make sure you keep a healthy brain yeah time frame yeah but yeah Bill, thank you so much and I hope you enjoyed the

episode

as much as I did.

I think even though I've had so many different conversations with you, there's always something, um. which I always take away and take away, so again, you know we'd love to hear what some of your key takeaways are. You know, comment below and like, share, subscribe and stay tuned because you know Bill and I along with your design and Life Institute in Singapore will be planning some workshops especially for the rich reflex community, so until then, a few last words to everyone, first of all, you are very kind and you are always very kind to me, so thank you very much.

The words are: everyone deserves to design a good life, a happy, well-lived life, and it's not difficult, it's just about taking that first small step.