The History of Heaven and Hell - St Luke's Episcopal Church Interview

Well, I want to welcome those who are here. I see some familiar names and some not so familiar. I want to thank you for being muted if during this conference, uh um, if you want to ask a question, below are reactions, um. tab, you press that and if you give me a thumbs up, I'll call you to ask your question, then you can unmute yourself and turn on your camera, your video so Bart can see who you are and hear what question. You may have, we welcome Dr. Airman to our St Luke's community educational event and I love the theme of the story of

heaven

and

hell

.

Maybe that's what Josh and I should talk about in the Jewish and Christian context of

heaven

and

hell

for our summer series. Dr. Airman, welcome and we are glad to have you here with us, for the topic. Good thank you. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I want to share a screen. I guess we should have. I talked about this before, is it okay if I share my screen because I have a um, I have a slide, uh, like a powerpoint that will help you, there you will see it, okay, very nice, okay?

So, of course, this is it, I call it the story of heaven and hell, and appropriately we have Dante and Virgil on the screen for those of you who are fans of the divine. comedy uh or virgil fans um and then we see some pretty grotesque scenes uh like the ones one finds in these things uh this uh this talk is based on the book that I recently published um which is called uh this is called heaven and Hell, a story from beyond. I published it last March. It is a book written for general audiences. Therefore, there is nothing too scholarly about it.

It's meant to talk to normal people instead of abnormal ones. scholars about what we know about where the ideas of heaven and hell came from and that's what the talk will be about. I'll talk for about 40 or 45 minutes and then we'll have about 30. minutes for uh for q a uh so let me see if I can advance my slides yeah I'm going to start I'm going to start out uh out of the bible with the text that I've been very interested in for a while. years that many people I don't know, but it is a text that almost made it to the New Testament in the 4th century.

There were Christian

church

leaders who believed this should be part of the canon. Unlike the book of Revelation, the Apocalypse of John. other people who thought that both books should be in the Bible and some people who thought that neither should be in the Bible, but the apocalypse of Peter did not appear and ended up being lost and we did not. I haven't had it for many centuries, basically, we lost track of it for, well, for over a millennium, the book was rediscovered in 1887. There was a French archaeological team digging in a cemetery in Egypt, in a little place called uh akhmeem a couple of hundred kilometers south of Cairo they were digging in a cemetery they were digging up graves and they unearthed a tomb with the remains they had a book buried with it it was a 66 page book and it contained it was a small anthology of texts that included a Gospel that was supposedly written by Peter, which is also a very interesting document and a Jewish book called First Enoch which is a very important Jewish text that is now being discovered and um uh and a book that this book called the Apocalypse of Peter, so This is 1887 when this 66-page book appeared, it is a very interesting text, this apocalypse of Peter in this text, Jesus is talking to his disciples and about what will happen in the end. of time and his disciples ask him for more details and above all they want to know what happens in the afterlife and Jesus opens his hand and Peter looks in his hand and sees the final judgment and what will happen uh what will be happening uh It is a very interesting vision because um, Peter, in a sense, enters the vision and is taken on a tour, so Christ gives him a tour of heaven and hell.

This is our first known precursor, a Christian precursor to Dante, um, us. I have several other examples of this type of guided tour of heaven and hell and one of the interesting things about all these guided tours is that the descriptions of heaven tend to be a bit banal and uninteresting and I think the reason is because the saints They are in eternal bliss and there are only so many things you can say about it. I mean the saints, you know it, you know it's a beautiful landscape, the good weather smells good and they live happily ever after, but there's not much.

There are a lot of details to give because they are blessed forever, whereas when you start describing the torments of hell, if you have some creative imagination, you can really find some interesting things and that's what happens in this apocalypse of Peter. There are 21 different groups of sinners mentioned and each sinner has his own distinctive punishment and so, for example, those who have blasphemed God and lied with their mouths are hanged by their tongues over eternal flames in hell. There is a group of women who braid their hair to make themselves attractive so they can seduce men.

They are hanging by their hair on eternal flames. The men they seduced are hanging by another part of their body on eternal flames. They shout, "We didn't do it." this so and so, it's so good, so, all kinds of people are being punished for whatever their characteristic, uh, sin, and that's this vision, uh, and so, a very brief description of a little paragraph of heaven and a law. of description of the torments in hell, so it is quite obvious what the point of this story is, this is what is going to happen to people, so you yourself have the option to choose what you want, you want, a glorious life after death. uh up in the sky where it looks great and there's all pleasure and no pain and uh or you want to be uh you want to be roasted in the fire forever you know so it's your choice and so it is, yeah, that's the point of the apocalypse, This is a very interesting vision and it is a vision that many Christians subscribe to today not this particular vision but the basic idea and so I want to talk about understanding the future life in the present and in the past and I want to start with the present today still in the United States according to the most recent bank research survey something like oh just over seven in ten Americans continue to believe in a literal heaven, a place where when your body dies it dies but your soul lives on and uh and you can go to heaven and live forever being rewarded seven in ten Americans still believe that literally and I'm not just talking about Christians or turkeys, you know, Americans in general, um six in ten Americans still believe in a literal hell , a literal hell as a place of punishment, you die, your soul leaves, you know if you've done it, if you've been evil or you know, everyone had different criteria, of course, you know you have you. you have not accepted christ as your lord and savior you know or you do not believe that the bible is the liberal world of truth or you have been you know you have been a miserable human being you have been evil whatever your criteria are uh six out of 10 people they believe that there will be eternal punishment for your soul yet um what my book is about and what this talk is about is trying to show that that vision is not in the Bible the vision that you die and your soul goes to heaven or hell.

It's not found anywhere in the old testament to begin with, I'll talk about the old testament view in a minute, this is a surprise to many people and then again, reading the pipe, the bible itself is a surprise. for many people today, but that view is not in that view, it is not in the old testament and I am going to argue that it is not what Jesus taught. Jesus did not teach that when you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell, for that matter. For that matter, where did these ideas come from and why are they the standard Christian view and not just among Christians now?

I mean even others have this view and where does it come from if it's not what the old testament taught and it's not what Jesus taught and why does everyone think it's a Christian view? Yeah, okay, that's a good question, so, yeah, I wrote this book trying to explain it all and I'm going to try to explain it to you in about half a year. hour and so on, we'll see how this goes, so I'm actually going to start outside of the Bible, I'm going to start with Greek thought, which is probably not where you would expect it to go, but that's where I have to go.

To begin, I will begin with the writings of the philosopher Plato and his understanding of the immortality of the soul in which Plato lived. Let me give you a little information about how Plato lived at the time he was. He is writing at the end of the beginning of the 4th century BC. C., so, you know, about 400 years before Jesus' ministry, he's from Athens, he was, he's widely regarded and, in my opinion, rightly regarded as the greatest philosopher who ever lived, so, Plato, inherited. Of course there are many views from other Greeks in the traditional Greek understanding of death, when a person dies they don't actually have an afterlife, they still exist in some way, so when you read Homer, for example, Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey, our first Greek literature.

There's a lot of talk about death and the afterlife in the Iliad and the Odyssey, and the idea is that when you die, you have a kind of part of yourself, a soul that goes to Hades. and this soul part of you, however, does not have a body and, since it does not have a body, it does not feel anything and is immaterial and in fact has no memory and is simply like a shadow, in fact, it actually does. They call it a shadow and when you look at the ground, the sun comes out, you look around and you see that there is your shadow, that is the substance of what it is to be dead, there is still a substance. there, but it's like there's no mental capacity, you can't talk, you can't, it's like that and you're bored to death for eternity, that's the vision of Homer that you will find, especially if you want to read about it, it's especially in the odyssey book 11 where Odysseus, the hero, goes on a journey to the afterlife and sees what he is like and he is not good, not even the greatest Greek heroes, Achilles, the most powerful man who ever lived, is just a shadow, without any strength . uh, so that's what Plato inherited.

Some people in Greek circles came to think that you know that's not really true, that you can be a great person while you're alive and then you die and you're practically nothing, you're a shadow. and also you want to say that everyone has the same destiny, that cannot be right, you mean that if I am a powerful, brave, heroic, strong and brave warrior and I am winning wars for the good of the people and you. There is an idiot around here who is like a coward, weak and pathetic, who hates everyone and puts them all on his back as much as he can so he can get richer.

It's like they both ended up at the same destination, what do you know? The gods in the world are not the gods that take care of us after death and that's why the Greeks developed the idea that you know there will be some justice after death and if you are evil you will pay a price and if you are just you know, or you are strong and powerful, you will be rewarded, that is the view that Plato inherited that there is justice after death and he developed that, by further developing the idea of ​​the immortality of the soul, the immortality of the soul is a doctrine that Plato developed extensively In several of his dialogues, including the Phaedo, where he tried to show that, in fact, your body dies but your soul lives on, there is a part of you that cannot be destroyed, the soul is immortal, so when you die, your soul is still alive and Plato, who believed in justice after death, if there is justice after death, there is justice, thought that your soul would then be rewarded or punished depending on whether it was righteous or evil, if you want to read something really interesting .

Tell about that in Plato like you, you decide to dig up your university Plato, you have the whole Plato there and you have the book of the republic, which is the greatest dialogue of it, uh, it has ten books, ten, you know, ten. call it ten books, but it's the end of the republic, the republic is Plato's utopian vision of what the perfect society would be like and a lot of us think it would be kind of the opposite of our society right now, but he has society perfect and this whole kind of ten thing is trying to figure out what it would be like and in the end he ends it with a myth that tells that is a fable, a myth, a story that the word myth tells. it just means something like a story in Greek and it's about a man named er er is a soldier who dies on the battlefield and uh 10 days later they put him on his funeral pyre to be burned and he wakes up and comes back and tells him People, what is it like?

This is a near-death experience. This is a near-death experience from the 4th century BC. C. It's fantastic and you describe what it's like: people who are evil go away and are punished people who are righteous are rewarded for a thousand years then they come back and have another chance and it goes on like this forever well, it's a great story, it's a little one great story and worth reading, but my point is that this is where you get the idea that after death your soul is rewarded or punished but your body is still alive, okay, you find it, uh, in the Western tradition you find it most strongly at the beginning, in Plato, okay, what is he going to do with Christianity?

Christianity did not emerge from Plato. the Christianityright it came out of Judaism uh and so uh I want to talk about the Jewish tradition and specifically the Hebrew Bible the Hebrew Bible Christians call it the Old Testament is, of course, the book that Christians inherited before they had a New Testament, they didn't. call it the old testament before the new testament existed um christians eventually gathered some of their own writings uh writings that they believed were written by the apostles about jesus or about other things and put them together into the 27 book new testament, but of Of course, Jesus himself was Jewish and his Bible was the Hebrew Bible and his followers used the Hebrew Bible and this to them was the Bible this was the authorized account and so what does the Hebrew Bible say about death and the afterlife?

That's my problem here. so I'm going to say that most of the bible says something so let me start by saying the hebrew bible the hebrew bible in english the old testament in english has 39 books written by many different authors there are dozens of authors and they write for an In A very long period of time, there are great debates about when the first books of the Bible were actually written, but at least they were written in the 8th century BC. C. and the last book was written in the 2nd century BC. C., so we are. talking about conservative inversion 600 years of different authors saying things you wouldn't expect all these authors to say the same thing they have the same point of view I mean, suppose you take 600 years of the last 600 years in England or France and compare what someone said, you know five, a Christian when a Christian said 550 years ago with what Christians said 50 years ago, you know, they're going to be completely nice, probably not right, the Hebrew Bible is like that, it's a big book, huh, with many different points of view, but the surprising thing is that practically the entire Hebrew Bible, most of the Hebrews, but unlike the entire Hebrew Bible, do not believe that there is an afterlife, again, there is a type of death after death by which I It means whatever we think it means to be alive, yeah, you don't really find it there.

The ancient Hebrews did not have the Greek view of the soul. The ancient Hebrews, the ancient Israelites did not think that the soul could be separated from the body and. Living from this is a little difficult for us to understand because we all grew up thinking that there is a difference between the body and the soul. The ancient Hebrews thought there was something called a soul, but the soul is what gives life to your body. It's not something that exists outside your body, the best way to think about it is that it's like breathing, it's like what we think of breathing and sometimes, in fact, the word for rough soul is related to inhalation. in Hebrew what we think about. our breathing like what we have when we are alive when we breathe we are alive when we stop breathing we are dead okay when you stop breathing where does your breath go your breath doesn't go anywhere stop breathing well that's the soul stops existing when you die in ancient Jewish tradition and then how is the first man created?

God takes a lump of clay and he, uh, it's just a lump of clay, but then he breathes into it and that turns Adam into a living creature when Adam dies. the breath leaves and he becomes clay again ashes to ashes dust to dust now you are just dust and then you are alive only as long as you have breath only as long as you have your soul your breath does not exist after there is no soul after you are dead, yes, but what? what about the idea that there is a sheol and therefore throughout the psalms especially there is reference to this place called sheol sheol is not a common word in the old testament as it turns out some of you have heard talk about Sheol and people normally.

I used to think about it for years and years. He considered it a Jewish form of Hades. Actually, it's not that it's um sheol. It is found only in poetic texts like this, mainly in the psalms. proverbs and some other poetic texts when all she is used in these poetic texts, it is used in poetry as a kind of parallel word for other words, it is synonymous with other words in the poetry of the Hebrew Bible and what it is. The surprising thing is that the other words that are synonyms for sheol whenever she is used, the synonyms are always things like grave and pit and death.

I think sheol is not a place you go when you die in the Hebrew tradition, it means you. they put you in the grave or if you can't afford a grave you're poor they throw you in a well and in any case you're dead uh so uh my point of view is that the Hebrew Bible does not teach a continued existence after death and that's why that the psalmist will say things like in sheol you can't worship god and in sheol god doesn't even remind you why because you don't exist the only way you can exist is if you have a body and then the only way to move on is that the body comes back to life because the breath comes back in, that happens sometimes in the Hebrew Bible, the body comes back to life because the breath comes back in, uh, okay, that's shield again.

The question of justice, how is that fair? you mean I can be righteous I can follow god I can do what god tells me to do I keep his law I keep the torah I'm righteous and this guy next door is the most evil human being on the planet and we both died and that's, no There is justice in the world. Good question, it's a question that led to a development at the end of the Hebrew Bible period that became important to later Judaism. It is a point of view that scholars have called apocalypticism uh apocalyptic thinking apocalyptic thinking is a point of view that was developed about 200 years before Jesus comes from a Greek word apocalypse obviously an apocalypse means a revelation or a revelation some thinkers Jews began to think that God had revealed the ultimate truths for them and the ultimate truth included the idea that death was not the end of the story for you there is justice after death Jewish thinkers became dissatisfied with the idea that you die and there is nothing then you are often in your grave, you know, and your body disintegrates and your soul is already gone, you just don't exist anymore, they felt dissatisfied because there is no justice there, besides, uh, in this period in the one in which this vision is developing, the Jews were experiencing all kinds of difficulties, um, military defeats, um. foreign oppression um social injustice at one end clearly there was something wrong in this world because there is a lot of suffering and this world is a cesspool of suffering where does that come from well in apocalyptic thinking god is not doing this to you god is not making you suffer well If it is not God then why am I suffering? and if you know it wasn't because of free will and it wasn't because you know it's because there are evil forces in the world that are against us.

The Jewish apocalypse has developed a kind of dualistic way of seeing the world, the world we live in, there are two powers in the world, of course, there is God, God created this world and he is the ultimate power and sovereign over this world, but suffering, I mean, you have to explain that somehow and the apocalypses explained it by proposing the idea that there are powers opposite to God that are creating suffering. For some reason, God has temporarily ceded the power of this world to these other powers and they are asserting his strength. when the jews started thinking about the devil there is a devil who is the counterpart of god god has his angels the devil has his demons and other powers like sin is a real power that is trying to enslave you you know sometimes you just don't can you stop what is that? a power that is trying to take over you death is a power that when it takes over you annihilates you and that is why these forces of evil exist in the world there is this dualism between good and evil between god and the devil the definitive solution of god for the problem of suffering including death is to intervene god is going to reassert his power over this world and destroy the forces of evil to establish a good kingdom where no one will suffer anymore there will be no more hunger there will be no more epidemics there will be no more poverty uh no there will be more war there will be no more uh there will be no disease there will be nothing uh there will be happiness for all that God rewards but how is it going to be? it will happen that there will be a day of judgment and god is going to enter into judgment with this world and he will punish the wicked and reward the righteous, that will come not only to the people who are alive at that moment, you know if you are alive and you are righteous , oh luckily, not only do you know that it's not that you're righteous, that's something you did, but luckily you're alive now, too bad, you know, too bad that guy died five years ago, he's not going to get the kingdom that God is bringing. no, that is not right, be fair, god has to reward everyone and has to punish everyone, he has to reward the righteous, punish the wicked, but not only will there be people alive, but they cannot be alive unless that they return to their bodies because only bodies can live in the Jewish tradition and that is why the Jews began to promote the idea of ​​the resurrection of the body when the Jews and Christians at least those who understand the

history

of this idea when they talk about the resurrection of the body they refer to your body will come back to life, when you die your body will disintegrate you will no longer exist but God will resurrect your body from the dead and it will be a glorified body it will be a body that will not suffer and will not die, hey, that's the Jewish doctrine of the resurrection of the body.

Well, the other point of this point of view was that it was imminent. The Jewish apocalyptics were writing in a time of immense suffering for the Jewish people and they were writing their stories about God. intervening to reward their righteous and punish the wicked, they were writing it to the people who were suffering and telling them it won't be long, it will come right away, it's just around the corner, wait, don't give in, don't give it up. you do. give up your righteousness in order to prosper because you have to be righteous to survive the coming attack and so endure because it is imminent.

This view became very common in Judaism beginning approximately 150 years before Jesus was born 200 years 170 180 years earlier. His ministry um, it was a vision widely spread in Judaism, it was a vision, the basic vision was held by the Pharisees and the people who made the Dead Sea Scrolls, it was held by John the Baptist and it was held by Jesus and his followers. It was the majority opinion, uh, that we, as far as we know, in Israel at that time, Jesus also thought that the end was coming soon, that God was going to intervene, destroy the forces of evil, get rid of these evil empires that are making. our life will be miserable and we will bring a good kingdom to the earth the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished how is it going to work for Jesus?

It's really hard to know. It is difficult for scholars to discover exactly what Jesus taught. We have four gospels. in the new testament these gospels were written between 40 and 65 years after the death of jesus by people who did not know him who lived in different parts of the world and did not even speak his language he spoke aramaic the gospels are written in greek they are not written by eyewitnesses, they are written, they are recording stories that they have heard about the teachings of Jesus and sometimes, many times they do not agree in what they say about the life of Jesus, so these are problematic sources.

Because not for believers, I mean believers, they are scriptures and you know they function as scriptures for believers, but for historians who are trying to find out what really happened, they raised their problems. Scholars, you know, dedicated their lives to dealing with these kinds of problems. problems I'm not going to be able to go into all that here I will say that virtually everyone agrees that one of the clearest teachings of Jesus, one that is found everywhere in his teachings, is about the coming kingdom of God, the first words recorded of Jesus. are in mark chapter one mark is our first gospel chapter one is the first chapter the first thing jesus says is in verse 15. so the first recorded words of jesus are the time is fulfilled the kingdom of god is at hand repent and believe in the good news the king the time has been fulfilled is an apocalyptic image god has allotted a certain amount of time to the forces of evil and the time is up the time has been fulfilled the kingdom of god is near and in other words god is now He is going to intervene to overthrow the evil force of this world and bring his kingdom here on earth Jesus is not talking about heaven when you die when he talked about the kingdom of God he was a Jew he did not believe that the soul was separated from the body when he talked about the kingdom read what it says about the people they are going to be celebrating there they are going to eat there they are going to be with the patriarchs there it is this is a kingdom on earth that will come soon God created paradise on this earth to begin with, the people ruined it but God will bring him back.

The kingdom of God will be the paradise on earth that God originally created. It will arrive soon. Those who do not enter the Kingdom of God will be expelled. and sometimes Jesus talks about them being thrown into Ghana, what is Ghana?English bible translations don't do you a favor when they translate theword gehenna as hell because when we think of hell we think of that burning place under the earth where people will be tormented forever that is not what gehenna is in the teachings of Jesus, gehenna refers to a place called ghana that appears by first time in the old testament gehenna is a valley on the outskirts of jerusalem it is on the southeast side of jerusalem it is a valley where corpses were thrown to be desecrated the jews like everyone else in the ancient world wanted a decent burial place if you didn't have a decent burial that was very bad it's not that your soul lives on it's like you know I've been dishonored and this is how it is it's horrible people in the ancient world hated this idea that Gehenna was a particularly bad place for your remains to be disposed of because in the old testament it is a place where some Israelites practice child sacrifice to a pagan deity malak, so if you are thrown there, you are thrown into the most godforsaken place on earth.

Jesus is not talking about going. to heaven with your soul or going to hell and again he is talking about your remains being desecrated, you don't want that, okay, but if people are not rewarded with the kingdom, they could be thrown into gerhana, what is their destruction , what what. In reality it is going to happen to people when the judgment comes, well what is going to happen is that for Jesus people are going to be destroyed those people who are not alive when the judgment comes they are going to be resurrected from the dead the righteous will enter into the kingdom together with the righteous who live, the wicked will rise from the dead to be shown the error of their ways and then they will be annihilated uh probably painfully in the fire they will be destroyed and will no longer exist Jesus does not speak of punishment after no talks about torment after death doesn't know about grievances eternal torture talks about destruction so I could learn many verses I'm just choosing two matthew 7 jesus says enter through the narrow door uh because the door is uh it's wide and the way is easy it leads to destruction and uh uh I'm sorry, I have to move on and uh there are many who pass through it how narrow is the door and how difficult is the path that leads to life there are few who find it well what happens to people that does not find life are destroyed or taken his parable of the tares Matthew 13 just as the tares are gathered and consumed with fire so it will be at the end of the age the son of man will send his angels this is how God's intervention at the end of time god the son of man will send his angels they will collect from his kingdom all those who urge people to sin and act illegally and they will throw them into the fiery furnace what happens to weeds when they are thrown into the fire?

If you go back five years later, are the weeds still there? No, they have been burned, they are destroyed. What happens when people are thrown into the fire? they will also be burned and destroyed and turned into ashes what is going to happen at the end of time when people are thrown into the fiery furnace they are going to be destroyed jesus did not teach that people would be tormented after death from which all the dead would be raised , some would enter the kingdom to live forever and those who didn't live forever would be destroyed by fire, so it's annihilation, not torment, yes, but what about that parable of the sheep and the goats? this parable where uh jesus um here let me go to the previous the sheep in the ghost is this parable of jesus in uh matthew chapter 25 where jesus says that at the end of time this day of judgment will happen and all the nations of the earth will gather before To the judge and to the right will be the sheep and to the left the goats.

Jesus turns to those on his right and says, enter my kingdom because you did what God wanted. I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was lonely and you visited me, so enter the kingdom and the sheep say lord, what are you talking about? We haven't even seen you, how do you do that to yourself?, he said, if you did. to the least of these my brothers my brothers and sisters you did it to me turns to the ghost you go to your destruction because I was hungry you didn't feed me thirsty you didn't give me something to drink solitary you didn't visit Me and they said Lord, we didn't even see you before, no you did the least with my brothers and sisters, so go with you so that the king says uh to those on his right side, blessed ones, come, you are blessed with my father, inherit. the kingdom that has been prepared for you since the beginning of the world says to the left go away you are cursed go from me to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and the angels these who will go to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal punishment life uh well, that It sounds like eternal torment right, so they are being punished eternally not bad notice that again there is a parallel between what happens to the goats and what happens to the sheep they have opposite destinies their destinies are opposite what is the opposite of life? sheep get lost sheep get life what is the opposite of life is uh for example uh being tortured not the opposite of life is not torture the opposite of life is death when you say this is an eternal punishment you mean that they will be destroyed by fire and it is an eternal punishment because it will never be reversed it is an eternal punishment because it is eternal death Jesus taught that there is a kingdom that comes here to earth no one is going to be lifted up in their soul to go to heaven and no one is going to be sent to hell to be tormented forever the kingdom will be here on earth where god created paradise to begin with that is why god created the earth and his people are going to live here on earth forever in their bodies without suffering anything.

Although the wicked will be painfully destroyed and annihilated after rising from the dead, so where did the idea come from that you die and your soul goes to heaven, hell, which is what most Christians still think? Jesus was an apocalyptic who taught that this coming of the end would come soon was imminent just as other apocalyptists said Jesus told his disciples some of you who are here will not taste death before you see that the kingdom of God has come with power in other words, that kingdom that I've been talking about that paradise on earth is coming and will come before some of you die, he tells his apostles or he says later in Mark, that's Mark chapter 8 verse 58 Mark chapter 13 verse 30 he says that this generation will not pass before all. these things happen talking about him he is talking about the end of times this year his generation will not pass jesus thought this was going to happen in his life it did not happen and christians had to modify the way they understood what jesus was saying an apocalyptic The understanding of things is that you have this dualism which is good versus evil and it's set up as a sort of chronological timeline, a horizontal timeline, evil is in control, now there will be an intervention from God and then good will have control and then dualism is not only good and evil, it is also a historical dualism: this era that is evil directed by the powers of evil and that era that will be good directed by god, a horizontal dualism when it does not happen when intervention does not occur when the day of judgment does not come Christians change the way they understand dualism from being a horizontal dualism of this evil age and the good age to arriving at a vertical dualism of above and below heaven and hell, It is still a dualism and it is still good and evil but good is above and evil is below the reward is above the punishment is below this has turned to a vertical dualism now it is no longer temporal it is spatial and it gets there insisting that the salvation that lies ahead of us is not in the body but in the soul what happens is that Christians begin to convert to Christianity the people who begin to convert to Christianity at the beginning of the first century the first converts were Jews they had Jewish views of things, including the body and the soul, with the bodies that the body lives can continue to live if it is brought back to life but the soul does not exist apart from the body at the end of the first century the majority of people converted to Christianity were Gentiles non-Jews who were raised in Greek ways of thinking who believed there was a separation between the body and the soul because when they were educated or raised or taught or when they existed they grew up in a world influenced by Plato not in a world influenced by the Hebrew Bible they were pagans what is their vision of the body body and souls to separate well when the The end did not come and more converts are coming out of Greek circles, what happens naturally is that they begin to understand it differently than the Greeks do.

It's heaven and hell. Heaven and hell in the Christian tradition is a kind of amalgamation of Plato's teachings and the teachings. of jesus now that's the most simplistic way I can say this because I don't really mean that people sit around thinking, you know, I think I'm going to put Plato together with Jesus and see what I can come up with here, that's it. The kind of ideas you find in Plato spread throughout the Roman Empire due to the conquest of Greek culture. Christians converted outside of that culture. They, uh, were raised within that culture, but then they converted to be followers of Jesus, but they understand Jesus. in light of their own world and their own understanding of things, just as everyone has done throughout

history

, just as American Christians do, this leads to this fusion where pi, where Plato and Jesus together give us They give our heaven and our hell.

The interesting thing is that the later writers who are writing about early Christianity, who actually the writers who write about Jesus put their views into the lips of Jesus, so that in some of Jesus in some of the later gospels we have Luke and John, Jesus seems to be teaching things that he didn't teach before. gospels matthew and mark in matthew mark is talking about the coming of the kingdom of god on earth, suddenly in

luke

there are a couple of passages where he seems to think that you die and your soul goes somewhere it doesn't come from that comes from jesus these are later gospels written by people who didn't know jesus who are recording what they heard jesus say but it doesn't match what jesus said jesus talked about the kingdom of god coming and now they We're talking about heaven and we don't actually They talk a lot about heaven, hell, there is a passage, but basically, what happens is that the words of Jesus are transformed not only in this way in many ways, as any student of the gospels would say.

What this eventually leads to is our graphic descriptions of heaven and hell, where the soul is punished forever. It has always been a problem in the Christian tradition because Christians who believe in the separation of the soul into the body believe. that the soul is not in the good body, if a soul does not have a body, how does it feel pain and there are no nerve endings? and how is it possible that you think that there is no brain? and how did I mean that you know these are problems? which Christians have to deal with, but they still start to develop ideas that if you go to heaven there will be very sense-oriented pleasures and in hell there will be very real physical torments even though it's your soul, so there it is. have. what I'm considering the birth of heaven and hell uh I think it's a later development within Christianity I don't think it's the teaching of the old testament I don't think it's the teaching of Jesus and I think it's a teaching that comes later in the Christianity when previous apocalyptic expectations fail uh and it's the vision that we've all inherited to this day, okay, I'm going to stop there and ask a question and I think I need to do it, oh, I need to stop sharing my screen, that's what I need to do. , yeah, okay, here I go, okay, okay, so, again, thanks bart again because you can turn on your video, at this point, if you have a question, go down to the At the bottom you see a reactions tab.

You press that and you can put the thumbs up and I'll know you have a question and then I'll say your name and you can ask Bart that question. Okay, let me get rid of that. hopefully if it will be deleted, I don't know how to undo it, welcome to technology, okay, come out, go ahead, uh, yeah, uh, dr. ehrman, before I ask my question, do you want to briefly discuss your blog? Oh thanks. I would, yes, thank you. Very much, I plan to do that eventually, but let me do it now before people get mad, so thanks ciao, I have a blog that I would like everyone to know about and spread the word.

It's called bart ehrman's blog on this blog. I publish about the new testament and early Christianity. I do five posts a week, usually around 1200 words, dealing with everything related to early Christianity, the historical Jesus, how we got the bible, how we got the new testament how we got the old testament how uh the books that didn't arrive to the bible uh the writings of paul every historical topic from jesus to constantine i mean the conversion of constantine if you are interested in the persecution of the early christians the role of women in relations between jews and christians of the early

church

, but also in the interpretation of Bible passages, it is awide range of things.

So I post five times a week around 1200 words. There is a charge per week to join the dance. There is a membership fee. there are ranges of levels that you can be in the lowest range is uh 29.95 uh a year uh, so, you know, 55 cents a month or something like that, I think it's exactly, but it's uh, so it's not. No, it's not, I mean 55 cents a week, so it's not, it's not much, um, what I do, although no, I don't get any of the money, uh, I don't get anything for it, in fact, I pay for it.

All money goes to charity. The money goes to charities that primarily deal with hunger and homelessness, so I use it as a way to raise money. The blog has been running since 2012. We have raised over a million dollars on it. time we raised over two hundred thousand dollars this last year alone and I'm trying to raise more and more money so if you're interested in the new testament and early christianity think about joining the blog and like i said there are several levels, if you pay for higher levels you pay a little more and get more perks you get more benefits so check it out just search for barterman's blog and you'll see thanks.

Well, now to my question. I mentioned the parable of the sheep and the goats found only in Matthew, yes, because it does not stand the test of independent certification. Yes, why do you think these are words that Jesus actually said yes? So, for those of you, no. What I can't go on is to point out that one thing that scholars do with the fact that you have these different gospels with different stories that are sometimes contradictory to each other is that they look to see if you have the same kind of story. in two gospels that are not copied from each other because if you have it's like you have two eyewitnesses to an event, it's better than one eyewitness because the only eyewitness could be making it up, but if you have two eyewitnesses to If you say basically the same thing , perhaps using different words, then you're less likely to know that you're both making it up.

See what I mean, so you look for independent sources and this parable is found only in Matthew, so it is not independently attested. I'm pretty sure Jesus said this and the reason it comes out for me is that the early Christians, of course, were very determined to proclaim that Jesus is the way to salvation. This is his opinion that without Christ you cannot have salvation, you have to have faith in Christ and What happens in this parable is that the people who obtain salvation do not have faith in Christ, in fact, they have not even heard of Christ.

They are the ones who are welcomed into the kingdom of God by the judge who is the son. of the man who apparently in the parable is supposed to be Christ the judge because they fed him and clothed him and visited him and said we had never seen you before and it didn't matter, they did good things for other people by doing it. the good things for other people in the parable is what gets you to heaven you are not in heaven in the kingdom of heaven in the kingdom of god that's not what the early christians thought that means an early christian probably didn't invent this parable this is a vision that Jesus had that Jesus thought that you have to be righteous if you are going to enter the kingdom of God you have to keep the Torah you have to do what God commands that is the teaching of Jesus, but it was not the teaching of the early Christians and this seems to be something that fits into Jesus understanding things much better than the early Christian view of things, so that's why any other questions, uh, if not, I'll continue with that, Now Ben has a question.

Okay, hello for talking to us today, this is great, my question actually comes down to the experience I had recently when I went to the Met museum and I saw a lot of medieval art and somewhere around the 16th century I started seeing everything. this. diagrams of Christian cosmology where there is the earth, there is a firmament and then there is god literally right above and then below is hell, so I guess my question was: how did that kind of hyperliteralism evolve? Was it like this from the beginning? It's more symbolic earlier in what I mentioned about some of this, but I was curious about that, yeah, no, it's great, it's a great question and it's a little complicated and the question is because, you know, starting from Aristotle, uh. people understood that the world was a globe uh and that um so you know I'm in Aristotle I tried to calculate the circumference and it says like this people always say you know before before uh you know enlightenment everyone thought the world was flat, it's not. true actually that is not true that myth was a myth by the way everyone thought the world was flat that statement was a myth invented in the 19th century by scientists who wanted to show how stupid religion was because they thought the world was flat but now we know, anyway, there were christian cosmologies that understood the world in these three dimensions, so it's a three-dimensional universe, where you arrived, you arrived where god is and you arrived here, where we are and you have below, where you know, so you have you have so the righteous go up the wicked come down and it's this three dimensional thing uh it's rooted in a literal understanding of the um uh of the Bible that begins with um with chapter one so in genesis chapter one when God creates the heavens and the earth um what he does is um he doesn't actually make um he doesn't make dry land what he does is he puts water he makes water he makes a firmament between the waters above and the waters below, so water existed and God put this called firmament, which means a firm space between them and firm space is understood as the ground we are on and the sky above us, the sky is a dome which um that is something firm, god is above the dome and below of us is where the water is, so there is water above the water below, that is why when the flood comes for Noah in the last chapter of Genesis 6-9 when the flood comes, it is not just that it rains, the rain falls from above because the water from above returns and the water rises from below as well and what it is saying is that the world is returning to its pre-created state because the water is coming.

You see again and then the firmament no longer holds up, um, and this becomes an understanding that becomes commonplace in Jewish circles and is picked up by the early Christians, so the early Christians thought that hell was underneath. of after hell was below and heaven above and that's why Paul says things about Jesus coming down from heaven because Jesus is up there with God now and he's going to come down and then in Paul in First Thessalonians chapter 4, Paul He says when Jesus descends. in the final judgment, the dead will rise first, then we will meet them in the air, so you have this below and this above and it's this whole three-story thing and this medieval art that these late medieval artists are choosing. in that concept, the three-story business, uh, of that and it's, although we live in a universe where there is no up and down, there is no up and down in our universe, depending on where you are, people still seem to think about that you know Christ ascending to heaven as you know physically and that he will come down and our souls will go up or down, you know which one it is, it doesn't really fit into a modern cosmology at all, does that answer your question?

Ben, yes, yes, thank you, Elaine. Did you have any questions? Yes, I have a comment, if you allow me. I am Jewish and in my long life experience attending synagogue there is absolutely no discussion about heaven or hell. I'm not in the Orthodox section. Judaism can maybe be alluded to there, but my father, who did it, was more Orthodox, never mentioned it, so I think it's a very significant difference, maybe because I haven't attended many religious services, but I do think that It is mentioned. more there than in Jewish practice, yeah, so maybe we want you to mention.

Professor Erman originally talked about the percentage of Christians who believe in heaven and hell and there was a good percentage if you were to ask about Judaism, I don't know if he has any comments on that, well, thank you Elaine, no, that's a very, very, very important, the statistics I gave were for all Americans, but including Jews, but you know, of course, what you are, of course you're right, I mean the majority. This is not a problem and let me explain to you historically why it is not a problem in Judaism. When I talked about Jewish apocalyptic thinking about the idea that a kingdom of God would come and that there would be a paradise on earth. forever and the righteous will enter it and the wicked will be destroyed.

That and I said it was a very common view in the day of Jesus that started, you know, a couple hundred years before Christianity began and then lasted um, they actually date this. also around 200 BC. C. for reasons that I don't need to explain and uh, this was a widely held view in Judaism for about 300 years, where the Jews thought that most of the uses that we knew of thought that there would be this future. Apocalyptic moment in which the kingdom of God would come after the Bar Kokovo rebellion in the 130s, which was an uprising against the Roman overlords in Israel, where they are trying to expel the Romans from the land they obtained, were annihilated and Jews.

The thinkers at that time abandoned apocalyptic thinking, um, so when you get to the rabbinic materials starting with the mishnah and then the talmud itself, the entire talmud, the apocalyptic, if it is mentioned, anything is condemned as a apocalyptic vision and basically Judaism. then it developed without the apocalyptic view and certainly without the Christian view about going to heaven and hell, so my Christian students can't understand the idea that you could have a religion like Judaism that doesn't believe in heaven and hell. hell. What's the point my southern Christian students, but uh, you are, you're absolutely right, isn't this just not part of Jewish justice by the way, this is another surprising thing, it actually wasn't a big part for the majority, uh, the majority? pagans in the ancient world most um more real you know no most polytheists are not religious because heaven and hell it's kind of an afterthought if there is anything thank you thank you anyone else meryl you have to unmute yeah thank you um it's very interesting as you say, let's say 70 of Americans believe in heaven and hell and yet I would say that the theological view on it, well, I would especially say that in the Episcopal church, um dennis, maybe Could you clarify that for us that is how it is.

It doesn't exist the way people think and maybe that's why Episcopalism isn't as popular as other evangelical churches where you like it, it's almost like overdoing it a little bit if you accept Jesus as your savior then that gives you You're a ticket to heaven, so Dennis, would you like to talk more about that? Or yes, I would love to talk to this colleague. I'll let you do it. Okay, Bart, yeah, oh yeah, so I'll talk about it. um it's true in all of the mainline Protestant Christian denominations that um uh and in other parts of Christendom that um that belief in heaven, hell has been declining and continues to decline, um especially the belief in hell, uh, it's very yes people this survey in the bank is already a few years old and I would be interested to see them do a new one because more and more people are discarding any idea of ​​a literal hell as a place of punishment, but within the Christian movement that began in the more liberal tradition for obvious obvious reasons, not just in the Episcopal church, but certainly there, but in other more liberal Protestant denominations, is where it first started.

Now it has infiltrated the evangelical community. There are several evangelical theologians and apologists who maintain that there is no liberal hell that believes in some kind of vision of annihilation like the one I outlined and they say it was actually the vision of Jesus. I have a surprise. I learned this to my surprise. You know, at least five or six years. ago um, there's a book, for example, called Four Views of Hell. The four people are very worried. I would call the four fundamentalist Christians, but they are theologians, they are thinkers, they are smart guys, just, you know, fundamentalists, but The three of them don't believe in the literal.

They do not believe in eternal conscious torment. One of them believes in the kind of purgatory where you punish for a while. One of them thinks you just die. I mean, so they got these. Another one of them still stood firm, look, it's in the Bible, that's his opinion, but then I talked to other Christian apologists, evangelical Christian apologists, who say no, no, I just can't believe it anymore and you know. it's just me, it's cool that they're starting to use their heads about things because you know, if you want to talk about why hell exists, it surely means that there is justice, that would be God's justice, and okay, so I.

I'm 30 years old and I die in a car accident and you know I've been aware of what I'm doing for about 15 or 18 years and I have been. I haven't been the best person, but I don't believe in Jesus, but you know, you know and I'm not a real idiot. I'll betortured for eternity for about 15 years for messing up a little and like you. I know in 15 billion years that's the beginning, what and that, although Angelico is just really saying, I don't know, that seems a little extreme and fewer people are giving up the belief in heaven and I think that's understandable because, um , I think um.

I think I hope it's a very strong, very strong emotion, and the idea that there has to be something more and there has to be some resolution and you know, I'm probably going to see my family again and you know, there are emotional reasons to hold on to. to heaven, so I think the numbers for hell are leaving more than the numbers for heaven, but in many liberal christian churches both are read more metaphorically, I would say okay, merrell, yeah, my question is, you said heaven isn't mentioned much in the new testament, would you believe that?

Would you say that the Lord's Prayer was actually spoken by Jesus himself and where he said your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven? So he talked about heaven, so he's okay, yeah, sorry, I think I miscommunicated. because what I meant was that I don't mean that there is no heaven, I mean that people won't go there. Heaven is where God lives in the teaching of Jesus, so heaven heaven is a place above, that is where God and his angels. They are um, it's the source of all good, um, but Jesus doesn't believe that humans go there when they die when he says let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, he's saying let's bring your kingdom, come, bring your kingdom. here. earth so that what happens here on earth is according to your will just as everything up in heaven is according to your will and then it is about bringing heaven to earth it is not about people going to heaven but for God's will to be manifested on earth the way it is in heaven that's how I read it okay, I'm sorry, can I go on alone? just um the story that the problem the bible about um the poor man in Abraham's bosom in hell how then do you explain that? yeah, sorry, thanks, just curious bro, I have to tell you, I thought that would be your follow-up question, so Meryl is talking about the parable in Luke 16, which is Lazarus and the rich man or if you are um, If you are familiar with the ancient traditions, the Lazarus and Divey immersions, of course, come from the Latin word waste, which means rich, it is a rich person, so in the new testament the person is not called um and the story , uh, it's a very, very powerful story in Luke 16 where Jesus describes a filthy rich man who has this fantastic mansion and uh glorious clothes and all kinds of slaves and servants and he has um and he's feasting every day, he has all these meals. sumptuous and there's a guy outside his door named Lazarus who's just desperately staring, who's starving and he's covered in sores and he's dying and he just wants scraps from this man's table just to survive.

Well, they both die. Lazarus is being taken to heaven to feast with Abraham and the patriarchs and he's having a banquet in heaven, the rich man is sent to torment hell, uh, where he's in the fire, the rich man looks up, sees to Lazarus up there and says Lazarus, he and sees it, Lazarus and Abraham's bosom, I mean. uh next abraham says abraham send Lazarus here at least he can dip his finger in the water and cool my tongue it's hot down here and abraham says a cat there's a chasm between us and no one can pass between us and the rich man says he says well look at least you would send them to my brother I have these brothers on earth send it to my brothers and warn them because this could happen to them and abraham says I can't do that either he says look your brothers have Moses and the prophets if they don't believe Moses and the prophets won't believe if a man rises from the dead, okay, that's how it ends, so what's happening here first is a parable, it's not a literal statement of something that happened, it's a parable, so that this doesn't describe anything literal second um, I don't think it's something Jesus said.

He was saying before that the gospels have differences and we Jesus says some things in the gospels that he probably didn't really say and the scholars. You have to figure out which is which every time you come across a parable, you have to figure out that this is something Jesus said. Some of them seem, yes, they absolutely should have said this and we have scholars writing entire books like in a parable. my bookshelf behind me I have two books on that parable, so I mean it's like people study these things. The reason to think that Jesus did not tell this parable, which both books agree with, is that it seems that the parable presupposes. that the readers understand that final line if the Jews do not really believe they believe what Moses and the prophets say they will not believe even if a man is raised from the dead the parable presupposes that the readers know that there has been a man who has been raised from the dead from the dead and the people who have Moses and the prophets do not believe in him, so the parable presupposes a post-Passover context, it presupposes that it is told in the context in which people know that Jesus rose from the dead the dead and so that's why scholars tend to think that that's one of the reasons why scholars tend to think that Jesus didn't actually tell that parable.

It is found only in Luke. Going back to the south's point about independent certification, it is not anywhere else, not in the New Testament or anywhere else, and it is supporting. a vision of heaven and hell that Jesus doesn't have in his other teachings of the kingdom of God, uh, and it seems to presuppose a post-national context, so I don't think Jesus actually told the parable even though it is a great parable. so embody this later vision put into the lips of Jesus in my opinion, okay and other questions, come out, you had another question, shock, horror, surprise, I would like to go back to the point about the sheep and the goats and ask, um, have you written than the previous sources from the time of Jesus, it is more likely to be reliable as something he actually said and did and with that Paul writes in Galatians a person is justified not by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ and then in Mark.

He writes where a rich man asks Jesus what he must do to achieve eternal life. Jesus responds: You know the commandments, so here we have Paul talking about justification by faith apart from the law and Jesus and Mark saying it is the law if Jesus had made another visit. to paul and say: hey, clarify the story, I'll tell you, come out, you know, that's a great comparison you just made and I have to tell you that I used to give my students an assignment, uh, in my new introduction to the new . testament class that's exactly what you just did what I did is for this and it never worked I had to stop doing it because the students just didn't see it but what I did was say, okay, this rich man is coming to Jesus what should I do for eternal life jesus keep the commandments which well don't commit adultery don't do it don't kill you don't know and uh and the guy says I've done everything he says is right, so you have to give it all away and then follow me, he said that you give everything away and then you will have treasure in heaven and then follow me, okay, so what I tell my students, the instruction is okay, it summarizes what this person has to do. do to have eternal life now read paul in galatians read that sal passage you just quoted where paul says you are justified only by having faith, not by doing the works of the law, he said now suppose this man came to jesus 20 Years later he approached Paul and asked him how I have eternal life.

Does it say the same thing that Jesus said or does it say something different and of course when Paul says you have to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and your jobs won't matter and then I have the students say well, okay, it's the same or not, the reason I had to leave this is because my students always said yes, it's the same, it's not the same, it's the opposite. and they said no, that's the same thing because they would say because in the end Jesus says and then come, follow me and for that it means I have to believe in Jesus I said no, no, you don't understand, you have eternal life you give you you follow the commandments yes you want treasures in heaven you give away your riches and only then after having that can you follow me not that you follow me and that is what gives you treasures in heaven Anyway, I said it but yeah I don't think they agree on This, that's why I do another debate in my class with students, one side has to affirmatively argue the other. negative the debate is resolved paul and jesus represented fundamentally different religions some students have to argue yes their religions are different others that is difficult no, they are basically the same and they debate it no there is no obvious answer to that but that is the debate, OK?

Another question, if I may, in the triumph of Christianity, you are right, there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that much more than the glories of heaven, it was the tortures of hell that convinced potential converts, vertical dualism of heaven and earth. an important role in the exponential growth of Christianity between 40 AD and and 400 AD um yeah, it's a great question and it's hard to answer um we have a regular um for those who don't know my book Crime for Christianity tries to explain how Christianity began as a small group of followers of Jesus after his death, he dies in Jerusalem, It says it is the year 30.

We are not quite sure what year, but we say it is around the year 30 and in the gospels he is 11. He has 11 disciples left and he has a handful of women who have followed him to Jerusalem for the feast of Easter, so maybe there are 20 people there and in the gospels they come to believe, so let's say there are 20 of them, it's plausible, so I mean. At the beginning of the 20th century, at the end of the 4th century, there were 30 million of them, so my question, my book is, how do you go from 20 people to 30 million people?

You know, in this time period, how does that happen? then the triumph of Christianity and it became the official religion of the Roman Empire and that is why I am interested in knowing how that happened. Sal's question is whether belief in a literal heaven and hell, an important factor in converting people, we have stories of people converting throughout the second third fourth centuries what the stories consistently show is that the The reason people converted is because they believed that the Christian god was more powerful than their old gods, that god was more powerful and the reason you worship god is because you know there are things that you need like you need to live and you need to eat. and you need to survive the war and you need to survive the disease and you need there are things you need and you can't provide that you can't, you can't Provide those things for yourself you can't make sure it rains you can't make sure the crops grow you can't make sure for cattle to reproduce you can't make sure your daughter recovers from an illness you can't do those things the gods can do it the ancients worshiped the gods because they were powerful and could do things for them the Christians convinced people that their god was more powerful and when people became convinced that their god the Christian gods were powerful, well, they are going to worship him back God, so that's what happens.

Christians were in the conversion movement to convince people that heaven and hell are a way to convince people that God is more powerful because the idea is that in pagan religions the afterlife was not a problem for them. the people who were polytheists. I didn't worship the gods for the afterlife they had nothing to do with the afterlife it had to do with surviving now um but christian said that you know the power of god that you have seen here and that you know that this person has been healed thanks to the power from god the power of god extends beyond this life and after you die you will be rewarded or punished because and god is going to do it you can't stop it so the question is did the message from um hereafter have an impact significant in early Christianity. uh in its spread and I don't know, there's no way to know how significant it was, it's worth noting that we have narratives where people preach about heaven and hell and they gain a lot of confidence, and so sometimes I have a narrative , for example, from the second century about a woman who has a near-death experience and it's in a book called The Acts of Thomas.

She has a near-death experience, dies, and is given a tour of hell. It scares her to death, well, she's already dead, she's already risen from the dead, she tells it, she tells it to everyone and she tells the apostle Thomas, who raises him from the dead, what she just saw and terrifies him. to the crowd and the crowd is converted. I don't. I don't want that and it was probably also used as a missionary, just as fire and brimstone have continued in fundamental circles to function as a missionary tool elaine, you have to activate the silence.

I would wonder, I would probably also give my own sense that there are as many saints and sinners in Judaism as there are in Christianity, with or without motivation from heaven and fear of hell and um, I wouldI wonder if that's valid what I think I'm saying because I think almost all religions believe in good works objectively here and now without that attachment to the gift, yeah, uh, no, you're absolutely right, I mean, in terms of morality, Christians, Christians, they're not more moral because they believe in heaven and hell, they look around the world, and so on, uh, uh, but Christianity.

The initial emphasis on heaven and hell was another thing that made it distinctive in the Roman world. The Jews, the Jews, were not interested in making converts in the ancient world, any more than the Jews are now, and whatever you want is fine, but, um. but the pagans didn't make converts either, there's no reason for them to make converts either, I mean, why did the Christians think that they did need to make converts and they also thought that if you didn't convert you were going to roast in hell and that became a missionary message and it's the kind of situation where it's an interesting situation because they had to convince people that hell existed before they convinced the person that they were going there, but it's like a marketing campaign that we're very good at.

In marketing, you have a new product. and you have to invent a person's feeling that they need the product along with the advertising of the project product, so if you know, you always know that you are in 1920 or something, you have never heard of a vacuum cleaner. cleaner and someone comes and presents a vacuum cleaner, you have to explain to them why this is something important for their lives, so Christians are doing that, they are creating a market while pushing their product and uh So heaven and hell become this product and it ends up becoming so important that when Christianity takes over the Western world for most of Western history since the 4th century, the vast majority of people believed in heaven and hell and just assumed that's what the truth is. religion. religion has all the implications that they give them and say, for example, they say well that means you know that without heaven and hell there would be no morality because you know that Christians are immoral because of heaven's hell and then you wouldn't. being more without heaven in hell and then these things occur to them, but then you say well, yes, you know that they actually exist, there are other people in the world who are not Christians who are as moral as you, you know it well, so yes.

Just um uh I was curious there with John the Baptist and Elijah, him being Elijah and not being recognized. Nowadays there is almost this strange theme of reincarnation. It is as if Judaism transferred to Christianity. What can you tell us more about that? Yeah, so in my book. have a chapter on reincarnation in the Christian tradition uh or a section of a book chapter on reincarnation because it's kind of interesting, there are several passages in the new testament that people have used to argue for a reincarnation and that thing of Elijah is one of them because Elijah's people say that John the Baptist is Elijah, well the thing about Elijah is that Elijah is a special case because Elijah never died in the Old Testament, so John wouldn't be reincarnated because John Never, he is not Juan, come back. from the dead because john is not dead yet, i mean, elijah is not dead yet, so it is a special case, but there are other things in the new testament, the most interesting, I think, is in john, chapter nine in Juan. chapter nine jesus and his disciples are walking and they pass by this guy who is blind asking for money and they tell us that this guy was born blind so he didn't become blind he was born blind and the disciples asked Jesus something many readers overlook this neither You don't even realize, they asked Jesus who sinned this man or his parents that he should be born blind now think about this for a second if you are imagining that the man sinned in order to be born blind he would have had to sin before he was born, which which means they must be suggesting reincarnation, that's how some people read it that way, it's a complicated passage to interpret that way, reincarnation, I never learned much.

In early Christianity, I often have people tell me that they have heard that the green incarnation was the doctrine that was silenced in early Christianity and that it is not true, almost no one believed in reincarnation until there was a church father of the 3rd century called origin who actually developed a doctrine of reincarnation, his view was that in the end everyone will be saved. See, God is sovereign over this world. God is not going to see his will frustrated and no matter how hard you try, you are not going to stray from God. you could come to that now and you could be evil now and you could disobey God.

God has a way of convincing people and ending up like a series of almost infinite eras, eventually everyone will understand and then, um, but for that to happen, you will be reincarnated. if you're wic if you are if you're righteous you'll go to heaven if you're evil you'll be reincarnated try again until that's the first time you start looking for a reincarnation doctor and then that ended up being uh taking people he was a very theologian famous, a very important theologian, but he, um, but this doctrine ended up dying, dying, and in case he doesn't reincarnate Merrill, you had one and then we're going to have to look at that as closely as possible. in the end I'm mute nida and mute yes um it's just going back to john the baptist where john the baptist we just left advent and there was john the baptist talking to the pharisees or your generation of vipers who want you to flee from the lords to come from what I was talking if it wasn't a case of the hell that was to come what exactly it isn't a big question whenever john the baptist or jesus talk about the wrath that is coming they are talking about the judgment that is coming to hit the earth soon when god intervenes to destroy the people who are against him and then the idea is that they are actually partially getting this from daniel chapter 7 uh in the old testament daniel chapter 7 verses 13 and 14 where there are a series of kingdoms that arise from the sea uh that are evil that really They are doing unpleasant things on earth and then there is a kingdom that comes from heaven represented by one like a son of man who destroys evil and gives the kingdom forever and ever to the saints, they are building on that image of John the Baptist and Jesus, saying that there is a cosmic judge who will come from God above and who will destroy everything that is evil and everyone who is on his side and people need to prepare. because it is coming very soon those who are ready and prepared and who are being righteous will survive those who are unrighteous will be destroyed and that is why John also says that that is what he means by the wrath that is coming and that is why John also says in his previous words When he speaks to them he says he tells them the ax has already been placed at the root of the tree this is John the Baptist speaking every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire Well, then the ax has been placed in the tree it means that the cut is ready to start.

This is an image of judgment. The tree is going to be destroyed. And every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down. So he is telling the Pharisees they better start bearing good fruit or they will be destroyed like this tree, they will be thrown into the fire now that tree did not survive for a thousand years in the fire it burned and so will the people, they will be destroyed in the fire, it will be a painful death and then it will be over, so they were not talking about going to hell to be tormented forever, they are talking about the day of judgment that will come on the earth. before paradise returns, okay, first of all, I see David Plank there.

I haven't seen him in a long time. Hi David, good to see you. actually for future events, but it's in March every Saturday in March from 4 to 5 30. uh the first two Saturdays, March 6 and 13, um elizabeth strothers melbourne will be speaking to us about the challenging good news of the gospel of mark for everyone um, so that' It will be on the 6th and 13th from 4 to 5 30 in the afternoon, you can register again on the website. We will put it in next week and then on the 20th and 27th uh John Dominic Crosston uh will be speaking to us uh March 20 March 27 March 20 the week before Holy Week he will be speaking to us about the passion, the death of Jesus and then on March 27th, which brings us right to the beginning uh, getting ready for Easter actually, which will be April 4th of this year, talking about the resurrection of Jesus.

I was talking to Bart a little bit earlier about that and he said that he generally follows the dominant crossover, so it doesn't seem as liberal after you're Sunday, so we. I want to thank Bart for really starting this Bible series for us in 2021 and for sharing his wisdom, his knowledge, and helping us really explore our own faith no matter where we are on that journey. I want to thank Elaine uh for being here and representing our Jewish brothers and sisters um shabbat shalom to you elaine uh and uh to anyone else who may be appropriate and thank you all for joining bart, thank you so much on behalf of us and jeffrey for helping I understand you so I really appreciate it a lot yeah thank you all thank you God bless you all take care thank you well well bart thank you close the