Landlords Selling up in 2023 | UK Renting

Hello everyone and thank you for joining me for the latest in my People in Property series, where I wanted to discuss the impact on tenants if, as reported, large numbers of private

landlords

sell their investment properties. It's a topic we've visited before and I've received a lot of feedback from you, so I wanted to try to address your concerns and comments as much as possible and also see where things are now compared to when I did what was about one year. I share some knowledge and experience on the subject. I'm joined today by Vanessa Warwick, property investor and co-founder of Property Tribes, as well as Timothy Douglas, Head of Policy and Campaigns for Property Marked at Vanessa.

It's a pleasure to see you both today, thanks for joining me. I really appreciate your opinions because it is a rich topic, it really is and it is a very relevant topic right now. There is much to discuss. Lots to talk about Vanessa. Could we start? There were a lot of different types of owners in the country right now the big ones with over 30 that are converting their operations into business entities, companies and then there are also a lot of accidental owners that aren't there, so it's kind of a broad Church, but since there are so many regulations now that I think I've read some, there are over 130 different regulations, all of them are the following for each owner, up to 168.

I get it, they are just falling from the sky, so it is not something understandable, but people are I think it has more to do with the incredibly challenging environment that homeowners face and when you and I spoke about a year ago, it was Phil that really sparked a huge debate online that I actually thought the comments that I came in, I read a lot of them and I found them, you know, very interesting. I think the point is that the situation for owners has become even more difficult since then. Clearly, we have had increases in interest rates where the Bank of England base rate has increased. has been increasing very significantly in a relatively short period of time, um, and you know all the uncertainty about the Tenant Reform Act when it comes, what's happening with section 21 and all the other issues that have been hitting to owners over the last five years o So, you talk about the different demographic groups of owners.

You are absolutely right and I think that is part of the problem because the more professionals learn, the owners with large portfolios will be full time in the sector and will be able to keep up. with the changes in regulation legislation, the smallest landlord you know, with maybe two or three properties, probably got a professional job in a business as a veterinarian, teacher or doctor, something like that, they don't wear a landlord hat all time, so there are those who will probably find it even harder to keep up with everything and also deal with these challenges and the shrinking margins that owners are experiencing.

Do we have any knowledge? And I don't, but I wonder if there is any knowledge. statistics available, numbers of individual owners versus numbers of properties they own versus numbers of properties owned by larger owners. I don't know well. I have some Homelet figures that I don't know if they are up to date. They are, but there are around 2.3 million

landlords

in the UK, apparently according to these figures around 97 of them have three properties or less, so they are the mass market of landlords, just three per cent of landlords have four or more properties, yes, and I think that was also very much reflected in the English housing survey, which tends to be the main data set in terms of trying to analyze what the program sector looks like. .

Tim, it's great to have all these regulations and they are being enforced possibly forever. Reasons I understand, but can they be enforced? Is the government capable of doing it? Are there methods to enforce them? some local authorities are better at doing that than others. I think the UK Government understands this and if you look at their proposals for a fairer private rented sector, there is a focus on local authorities in terms of giving them more funding to focus on their enforcement, but it is also an interesting idea and something that the issues drove is law enforcement league tables so you actually know local authorities would be ranked and I think an important step of law enforcement is inspections as you know, inspections lead to property standards being addressed and then eventually they will. lead to fines and enforcement but the key is that local authorities are inspecting properties and working with landlords, agents and tenants across the country but as you say some authorities are better at that than others or more active at it yes , and I think that's That's what you know, local authority budgets have been cut and they have priorities and they have many, many priorities, so I have extended, very friendly, yes.

I also think there is an element where tenants also need to be educated to For example, if a landlord refuses to carry out a repair or you know of a major maintenance issue, the tenant can report the landlord to the local authority and the authority local can force the owner to do that work and some of the horror stories I don't know about. If you agree with him that we heard about damp and mold etc, they wouldn't come if the tenants had gone to the local authority and said that actually this landlord is not dealing with this problem.

Can you help me solve it? rectified that's why I was quiet that's why I was interested in the question, so if you go to the local authority to make a complaint about your landlord, what can the local authority do? They can inspect it and say what happens next. I don't know well. I can enforce it and take it, and if the landlord says I'm busy or I don't have enough money or what, then normal teeth would normally give them an improvement notice that they would have to respond to within a time limit, right? If there is no response within that improvement notice, then they would be looking at further enforcement and a fine.

It seems like a long and complicated process. If you follow that process, it could result in a banning order if a local authority issues two. or more prohibition prohibition orders within Data is not actually public, it is only accessible to locals. authorities and the government department, so what we are saying and we have actually pushed for over the years is to ensure that it is public, it is important for tenants to know if a landlord or an agent has committed a crime, but also ownership by agents. From their employers' point of view, employees need to investigate who is potentially operating in the market and I think the second point is that obviously we are talking about the private rental sector, but we argue that our figures indicate that around 70 of sales Agents do lettings so of course it is important that any banning order or rogue landlord and estate agent database be linked to the list of banning orders for sales agents because we don't want a scenario where your band be a letting agent in the morning, but you can operate as a sales agent in the afternoon, so coordination from the local authority to the government working with landlords, tenants and agencies is really important because neither You want to rent a property on behalf of a landlord who is no longer there. on that list as a dishonest landlord that's not good for business either yes exactly yes exactly I'm thinking in my head while you were talking yes I'm a renter in this market right now which is very competitive there aren't many options rents are going up I got in on a property but the landlord doesn't take care of it and it's damp and you know things are going wrong am I really going to file a complaint against my landlord? with the local Council because I immediately got angry with my landlord, well I think the first thing the tenant should do is yes, certainly if you are

renting

through an agent, just make that complaint to the agent and all the agents should have done that . there is a complaints procedure in place that is followed, there is the ability to, as we have discussed, involve the local authority, but certainly allow officers to be legally required to belong to what they call a redress scheme and for them to that will also allow for a certain level of investigation and potentially result in compensation, but initially you know that they should take that complaint to the agent that the local authority is there to inspect and there is also that sort of element of compensation with the repair plan that you can give.

She is a property agent Mark, well yes, I mean obviously not all property agents, well not all agents are owned by Mark, but as an organization we will verify that they are enrolled in a compensation plan that is part of our investigation process so that agents are legally bound. To sign, there are proposals from the UK Government to extend repair schemes to homeowners now. I think it has touched on the confusion and ability of the tenant and the landlord to understand who to complain to, where they are going and me. Think from the property point of view: moving in and introducing compensation for owners is a positive step, however we believe it should be for all owners who fully manage the property because then it creates a level playing field with the agent , but also with the UK government or your needs. to create some kind of front door where the tenant can participate in the process, repair games are very much an industry, uh, focusing on the agent signing up and then having to relay that information to the tenant, but I think we can do more in so that the tenant understands where to go to raise issues initially and if it's a complaint then it's fair that we can always do more as well, but I think Philadelphia also remembers the lack of education of tenants because you mentioned that a tenant is being Afraid to report a self-managed landlord, yes, and we'll use that as an example as Tim has explained what would happen if it were an agent-managed property manager.

The tenant is afraid to inform the landlord, probably afraid of receiving a section 21 notice. for having the audacity to complain, but of course, section 21 notices, sorry, you know that a retaliatory eviction is illegal, so tenants can't be evicted because they complained about a repair issue so they were really skidding under all of this plus um and and you. I know it's a big concern for everyone, all the responsible people in our sector are concerned about it, within the property tribe membership, would you say the majority use an agent or manage the property themselves again? I think it's hard to say because I don't.

I don't think there are any statistics on how many owners use the fully managed system versus the self managed system. I would have thought that more users use an agent these days, but then there is the problem of reducing margins, many owners are thinking that actually everyone might try it. and do my own self-management to save a percentage, which I think is a complete waste of uh. I don't agree with us at all. I believe the agents you know earn their commission. There is a lot of work to ensure compliance and secure leasing. increasing amounts of work with a hundred and what did you say.

I think it's worth every penny, so I would say probably in the ownership tribes it's maybe I don't know 70 30 in terms of self-management, but it's hard to say. I wanted to read a comment that, um, a little bit of feedback from the last video we did Vanessa because there were so many comments when talking about the owners, talking about whether they were Rogue and who was responsible for what the owners had profited from. From a set of circumstances provided by this state with a very low bar to enter the position of collecting income from other people's salaries, those circumstances are clearly changing, it's time to adapt, it's a change in circumstances really so bad, um, I totally get it, I totally get it.

Is there an influx of rogue agents? I haven't seen it. I can relate to that. You know, through the lens of a tenant, they might think that, but then we have to step back to what it really is. caused the problem that this country is facing right now as we sit here and that is a massive shortage of rental properties and rents are going up likeresult when there is a very high demand and supply prices rise, that is the same for any sector, any business. any industry, so it is actually the government that has created this problem by not providing enough social housing, so there are local authorities who have legal obligations to people who have housing, they do not have enough social housing to achieve this, so what they have to fulfill those obligations. in the private rented sector and we are seeing more and more of those we mentioned above, but it is increasingly common for local authorities to offer these golden welcomes to landlords by telling them that they know there is a £2,500 incentive for us to give up your property so we can we have a complete disconnect between what's happening on the coalface and the local government trying to house people with waiting lists that grow and grow and more and more people are being housed temporarily, costing the taxpayer much more than housing someone in a private sector owner's house. and then we have centralThe government is putting up all these barriers not only to keep owners in the sector but also to encourage new owners to enter the sector, so that is the absolute essence of the problem, in my opinion, yes I know You have summarized it well, I think there is no doubt.

In this regard, there are good and bad things in all industries, all sectors, all professions, but certainly from the commitment to real estate marketing that I have with the members, there are many good people who try to do good things and I think that, in Ultimately, I talked about that barrier to entry from the agent's point of view. All of our members, already known, voluntarily signed up to be regulated to become qualified and trained and keep abreast of the ever-changing legislative landscape, so there are no barriers to entry, yes, but there is a model through professional bodies.

Yes, and what other agents are doing to qualify themselves, which is raising standards in the absence of that general regulation, and by the government is a real mix, isn't it? There are so many things involved, there are so many moves. There are so many variables and they all seem to be moving in the wrong direction right now. I am very concerned about what this will mean for society in the future if the private rental sector is not attractive. We absolutely need it. Society needs the private rental detector because, as you say, when there is a lot of it, the state-owned housing system has been and I think the narrative and the way that politicians and the government talk about the sector is certainly important when speak. public officials and politicians are told a lot about landlords, agents, the main insects of being a key housing provider.

Yeah, you know, it's the second largest holding now outside of homeowners, so to some extent you need to nurture it, you need to have a strategy that allows for that. To grow and meet the needs and demands of tenants and people in society, the pendulum swung too far. I think it oscillated too much and it will reach a certain point and then there will be an awakening. Hopefully the calls will be made and they will start to push back in the other direction and I think the other point to make is that I assume all legislation will have unintended consequences, but also be careful what you wish for.

I think we certainly saw that throughout the pandemic and we continue to see owners move into short-term rentals where there are even fewer regulations. Yes, it's very true, Airbnb is prepared to withstand perhaps longer void periods, but the returns in those shorter periods may be higher, you know, may be better than they are. perhaps surpass the priority sector in the long term, so it has to be part of the government's strategy in the future. What do you want the private sector to look like and what role should it play in housing and accommodating people you know across the country?

Are we saying between the three of us that we suspect things are going to get worse before they get better because there will be fewer people involved? There will be fewer landlords in the private rental sector because they are going to sell, they are

selling

and if they sell the rents increase, that is bad news for the tenants and only then someone in the government might wake up and well, let's not forget the repossessions of possessions which are increasing for landlords because of um, the Bank Rate increase has affected landlords who have standard variable rates and tracking rates and this is having an impact on landlords because many of them kept their rents low because many of the owners I talk to and I am one of them.

We tend to keep the rent level throughout the lease and only think about doing a rent increase if it's appropriate and the rental market, you know, supports that at the end of the lease, so there are a lot of landlords who have had a long time. good stable term tenants, they are now on svr, their rate has dropped, probably significantly more than the rent they receive, but they can't remortgage because the rent is too low, yes, and I will give an example from my own experience by sitting here in Beijing Stoke. I have a four-bedroom house down the street.

I've had tenants there for about five years and they've been paying £1,100 a month and maybe more for me. I haven't increased it. I recently found out the going rate is 1750 a month but when I went to re-mortgage because that property is on a tracker rate the £1100 a month didn't support the existing loan I had, yes so I would have had to do it. Put in around £30,000 to redeem that tracker mortgage, so I was just looking for a similar remortgage, so what's the answer? Raise the rent, which I didn't particularly want to do, or ask those tenants to leave and find a tenant. that will pay 1750.

It's really complicated and people will look at you and walk away. You know there will be a lot of finger language that landlords will raise rents, but you actually have a mortgage to back up and I've kept it well below market. fee for five years and if they want to move they are not going to find another property in Basingstoke at £1100 a month so they will have to leave, we have put ourselves in a bind, well I think there will always be legislative change in the program sector, now You know, the trend of what we've seen in recent years shows that, but making announcements delivering policy documents from the UK government creates uncertainty, so I think until that legislation comes in and they deliver it there.

There is uncertainty in the market and, as we know for a fact, agents are moving at high speed with owners. I think what's missing behind investing is the sentiment, you know, the sentiment. I think it's also important for how people or owners will stay. Yes, stay out of it, so those messages coming from the government are vitally important, but I think what Vanessa was alluding to, of course, everyone's struggle with the cost of living, the property could recognize that and tenants are also fighting, however, as a key. housing provider, you know landlords are also potentially struggling, they have costs and overheads that need to be part of that conversation, just briefly touching on rent and rental levels outside of the UK government if you look at all the other devolved nations that they have analyzed. and they're looking at rent control or rent caps.

Northern Ireland has looked at it through the Private Tendencies Act which made a report. The report came back and said no further action could be taken other than being able to increase the rent once every 12 months. The whales are analyzing it. and property brands in a government working group there where they look at different scenarios for what fair rents should look like, but in Scotland, through their cost of living legislation, they actually introduced a rent cap, you know, and that, um, there has been an owner. Exodus, yes, and that certainly had a knock-on effect in terms of those institutional investors looking at the long term of investing in Scotland, but you also meet more owners of one or two properties where rent was never really an issue, but now they have to look at the cost of their mortgage, look at their overheads and see how that fits with what the Scottish Government might do in 12, 15, 18 months' time, yeah, I mean, you said the word uncertainty, which to me is which really makes life difficult for owners, that uncertainty owners have to really think very long term with purchasing cards and investments, since you know you are thinking 15 or 20 years, how can you plan something where everything It changes all the time and do you know the legislation? it was supposed to come in 2025 yes there is also uncertainty for tenants because of this when there is uncertainty for landlords if I sell or raise the rent or not it creates uncertainty definitely yes do any of you feel that the changes in the tax rules? that the income of the owners, do you think they were designed to reduce the number of owners?

Did they want people to leave the property sector? 100 in my opinion, yes, but in doing so, I suppose the idea was to help potential first-timers. buyers because owners would sell the homes, first-time buyers would buy them. That really happened well. I think governments talk a lot about home ownership and in particular we've had a Conservative government for over 10 years so they're very interested. for homeowners, yes, but I think ultimately you can talk about home building targets that have been in the political news over the years, but unless there is a plan to deliver and build those housing, the private rental sector will still be It is necessary and I think that even in the cost of living situation, people are struggling, they will struggle to save more in terms of deposit and move onto housing land and therefore , the private rental sector has a vitally important role to play. is needed even more now, well, he says because the number of new constructions has also decreased because developers are faced with a number that we are not building enough to begin with, yes, and it is increasingly difficult for first-time buyers to get on the ladder, which means it is and also the private ones that rent their mortgages are also going up because residential mortgage rates have gone up, so, yes, it is, it really is this serious model, well, but I think fundamentally, you know, governments of all stripes need to build more houses and they need to link those targets to different tenures and then they need to look at what is needed and what the demand is in the local areas, whether that is previously a rental property, a property to buy, then you are in talks about two bedrooms, three bedrooms, four bedrooms.

What are the demographics in that area? Basically, we need more housing, yes, but it has to be linked to what people need and demand, yes, and where they need it, as well as the areas in which we have to build what we need, where we need it exactly. and that hasn't always happened, I mean, the private rental sector needs to be very diverse, it is because there are people who legitimately don't want to buy their own home. I have a friend of mine who is extremely wealthy and doesn't For some reason he doesn't want to own his own home and rents a luxurious five bedroom barn conversion.

Yes, there is the widest choice in the private rental sector, from humble one-bedroom apartments to luxury houses that people want to rent. coming from abroad working in uh, you know, as executives and large corporations, they want to be able to access, you know, a good quality family home, they can afford to pay for it, but they will only be able to do so if it's attractive. owning that house and putting it in the private rental sector and whilst I fully support the support for getting rid of dishonest landlords and having some sort of framework to manage it properly and ensure that the tenants are looked after and that the place is really looked after It feels like the tax pendulum swings and I want to talk to you both about the EPC rules because that's on the way and that's going to be another hurdle.

Yes, in theory, I like it, it's a good idea, but in practice, what is it? is going to mean, but I'm getting ahead of myself, let's talk about EPC and what's coming in the future because it seems to be a changing face as well, yeah, well, I think there's no doubt about it, you know, climate change is a it's a problem. real and I think ownership could recognize that and I think the climate change committee says about 40 of the UK missions come from homes so you know there's a problem that needs to be solved. I think the government needs to be careful about independent targets that are one size fits all, as we just discussed there is a wide range of different types of properties andbuildings in the UK yeah and basically I'm saying to let a property everything has to be an EBC C which is the proposed minimum yes um by 2025 for new lettings it's going to be a challenge it's going to be a big challenge in certain parts of the country those Proposals are set out in a UK government strategy paper we haven't actually seen any legislation there is still legislation going through Westminster at the moment, which seeks to retain the EPC date but delay the date from 25 um 2025 to 2028.

So there's a little bit more uncertainty, but thank you for the uncertainty, but if there's something we're pushing for incentives, you know the facts. communication and some form of grant funding which I think landlords and homeowners will be able to take advantage of, then I think people will start to engage in the process, for example the UK government has a boiler improvement scheme when we surveyed our male members, almost half of the members of the housing market had not done so. I haven't heard of it so that's a great example, we have a lot of feedback from owners.

That's Young in our last video talking about the PC and it's one of the main reasons they sold it. Well, Phil, we can start connecting the dots now because if a homeowner wants to do these energy efficiency improvements, I think it's typically between 10 and 15,000 to do it, that's what I've heard from the real estate tribe community and I've also I've been talking to some energy experts and typically a homeowner would resort to remortgaging to get those funds to make the upgrades, but as we said earlier, many of them won't be able to remortgage due to the stress tests that homeowners face. interests. the rate increases etc. so I personally know several homeowners who have portfolios in the def uh ranking and they don't know where they are going to get the money to make these improvements and they are thinking about

selling

. but now it's been pushed back to 2028, essentially potentially, so it was 20.

I have an example from a comment that I brought up. the EPCC or better requirement is going to be a catastrophe for the private rental market and tenants. I don't know why anyone would buy a D flat or worse right now as its value is very vulnerable. Well, Flats Elise waits, then. That has to go into the devil is in the details because the tenant will be responsible for energy upgrades when their lease prohibits them from doing many activities within the property, so again, this is a question I've asked. the tenant will be responsible for the energy upgrades or they will be the owner and no one can really answer that question like a building as a whole just because obviously you know if you want to go and change the windows in a leased apartment to improve energy efficiency .

I think the owner might have something to say about that, but what we've been trying to do at the Mark property is work with the agents and engage them to interact with their owners. I think yes, there is uncertainty, however, there will be targets on dates potentially. The gangs will move but this is a key issue for all UK governments so legislation will come so we have been telling our agents to sit down with their landlords and now work out what their portfolio will look like in 5 10 15 years. Are there other renovations planned at those properties where energy efficiency upgrades have all the quick benefits for improvement?

Those things in an EPC need to be done to start thinking about that process now that there is local authority funding, certainly. Financing is available now. I think some of the schemes were sold out at the end of March, but there are several schemes across the UK that allow for energy efficiency improvements, if perhaps tenants also receive benefits. I work with energy providers and also with certain schemes, so it's about analyzing what properties they have, what tenants are

renting

there and looking at all the financing mechanisms available because unfortunately Vanessa alluded to that they know that the average cost is 10 to 15,000 pounds, but I think the UK government's latest green homes grant only cost five thousand pounds, so we start the chat and say that 97 of homeowners have three properties or less, they're not going to have 10 or 15 grand on cars hanging around, they could have them in equity, but as you save on us, they won't get on that equity list, they raised the rents again, now we're getting to the heart of the matter, right?

It is not like this? um it doesn't look pretty and I guess because there are uncertainties Timmy, you've said several times that changes in legislation don't happen overnight, they need to be discussed and I think now is our chance to discuss it and encourage it and see what kind Of suits there are many variables and maybe this. I have no experience in how legislation is made, but I guess I hope they introduce it. I think if this sounds like a good idea, let's see what happens, the industry will discuss it and then hopefully do it. make some good decisions, some decisions based on knowledge and experience, from the cold shoulder at the end of the day, but right now it feels really messy and pretty.

I want to read out another feeling from the owner and what we have. comments on the last video I made. I have been an owner for over 20 years. I have sold all the properties with a mortgage due to the tax penalties that have arisen. I have three free mortgages left that will be sold as long as the tenants advise that the government clearly does not want private landlords, so I will give them what they want and they can deal with the housing shortage. I understand that kind of feeling, but it's very, very worrying in the long run, it's really worrying because we're just going to run out of accommodation, well, you can see it, I can see it, Tim can see it, the government can't see it, I mean I imagine many owners older or older.

Mature owners in terms of where they are in their business portfolio, career building, they probably thought I was going to be out in five years, but actually no, I'm leaving now and to be honest I'm probably in that category. I'm about to think I've actually had enough um and you know it's very challenging out there um and you know the two mortgages I have left in SVR are a punishment, I won't deny it um and I'm fighting for you know well, I'm not fighting , but I continue with those who try to find solutions for them. I put one of them on the market, okay, and I'm not sure what I'll do with the other one, but um, yeah, it's really coming down to the nitty-gritty now that people are making these decisions to exit and the supplier will get less.

Can I ask Vanessa? um obviously there's different there's different return methods as an investor there's your return that you get off the ramp and then the potential for capital growth for you as an investor where has your interest been more return or more capital growth? Well, every investor should really focus on performance because if you don't have performance you may not survive long enough to benefit from capital growth. The reason for my question centered on yes, no one expects much capital growth in the future and certainly not in the short term, so if you are not recovering and we are not getting a couple of growths that deter the owners who do have other very significant income from a business or from their career or whatever from doing it, you know, for Capital Growth, they weren't there.

He used to say that he washed himself. own face, which meant that the rent covered the mortgage. Many people who had other significant incomes were very happy to have their acquaintances in the background, rising in value over the years and were going to collect the capital. or you know whatever, it could be Legacy for your children or pension coverage or whatever, but you're right, there's no um, returns are going down. Capital growth, well it looks like we are starting to lose all the gains we have made over the last few years. In two or three years it is becoming much less attractive, aren't institutional investors coming in?

I mean, apart from building and renting, which is different, but do you think we'll get to that stage like we see in Europe, where pension companies and Why have you bought loads and loads of properties? Well, we are seeing that we are not in Lloyd's bank? He has said that they will become owners. I think the banks are available. Yes, with other banks. But yeah, I mean. I've seen an increase in the bill for rent, yes, uh, but it's not even close to filling the trip, that's there for the amount of supply that is needed and again, very often it's these fancy chrome floors and glass, yes and I think it goes back to what we'll talk about at the beginning, what is the government's overall vision for landlords, tenants, agents, the private rented sector, because I think there are other examples of countries where it's often run to Germany and where there is a higher proportion. population, uh, rent, but there, of course, you have a smaller group of providers, so again we come back to that conversation: do you want?

Does the government want a smaller, more professional, perhaps private, tenant sector that focuses simply on industry investors? We actually need to support most of the major housing providers in the UK, which are landlords with one to three properties, so it's all about that long term, what's your sense of who do you think? Do they want to attract who they want to look at? afterwards I don't think they know, not really, I think there will be more uncertainty, yes, I think, yes, definitely, the current government wants to see more homeowners and I think they have tried to do that through the home first scheme, uh. even the stamp duty holiday, yeah, you know, during the pandemic, so I think they recognize the value of home ownership.

I think the private rental sector, as Vanessa alluded to you, and you need to look at the tax changes, the lack of coordination in terms of energy Energy efficiency and the housing legislation that they are proposing. I don't think they're quite sure what to do with the private sector, but if we get a change of government, yes, and we talk to politicians on all sides. I think they are certainly more interested in a smaller, more professional private rental sector, which could mean licensing for estate agents and more registration and training requirements. Yes, workers, yes. Labour's policies are even more draconian than those of the Conservatives.

We have a thread on the real estate tribe that says. be careful with a Labor government, if they're in I'm out so yeah that's more uncertainty because if we have a Labor government they are even less landlord friendly and how do you think things might change with a different government ? Well, they We're talking about rent controls, um and more licensing and other things that will make it even more difficult for landlords to have any kind of margin in their businesses, so yeah, that's right, where does that leave? Where does that leave things? terms of properties that could be available for rent when there is increasing demand from the rental sector, where is this going to end well?

I think going back to the possible change of color in the government, I mean, yes, I totally agree, I think if there was a change to a Labor government, there would certainly be a greater focus on tenants through a sort of Charter for landlords and the rights and roles and responsibilities of what landlords should do, but I also think they've said publicly that they would build more social councils and housing, so I think that's positive based on some of the things we said before, but ultimately, you know, some of those properties would just be empty. Are private entertainment properties bought by owners sometimes known to be somewhat different? type of property that people are looking for, so I think it again goes back to what is the overall vision of housing in the country in the future, maybe we are in a bit of a state of flux right now because we have a choice in in the horizon no one is going to make big changes there is a lot of uncertainty no one really wants to fix that yet because they don't know who will be responsible for what but in the meantime life goes on and if there is a change of government and if they decide to build more good, that will be within five years.

I like the moment that comes, yeah, where is everyone going to live? You know, we have blood in the streets right now with people who can't. I can't find housing, people can't afford housing, obviously, I'm sorry to say that the number of homeless people may increase. I mean, I have a very simple solution ahead of me. I think the biggest problems in the sector are caused by oneself. -manage owners who do not understand the rules and regulations or are dishonest or should we say criminal owners who are there with theintention to make them not provide safe, compliant housing if all landlords were forced to rent through a reputable agent, such as the property, Mark's agents who, as Tim said, currently voluntarily subscribe to the Professional Standards, if that were made mandatory, I think it would reduce the incidence of tenants being severely affected by dishonest landlords because, essentially, good quality accredited agents.

They act as gatekeepers to protect the landlord because they can spot a potential dishonest tenant through strong tenant references, but they also protect tenants from Road landlords, so, you know, I want to see that tenants and landlords are protected from criminals because there are dishonest landlords and there are road tenants and there is a big story in the paper today about a tenant who had caused tens of thousands of pounds of damage to a rental property and the landlord didn't know how he was going to afford the luxury of getting it. back to a deed standard, so it's another property off the table for renting because you can't afford to renovate it, so there are some pretty simple and quick solutions that could help stop the problems we're seeing.

I don't know, I think you'll like that idea. I hope so, I mean totally. I think you know the property. Mark, you know the advocates and the higher standards and I think our argument is, you know, all real estate agents should be qualified, trained and maintained. on an ongoing basis and therefore gives the landlord the option of using a qualified regulated agent or doing it yourself and certainly in Scotland where they introduced a letting agent register and qualifications for letting agents it was done a study earlier this year that actually said nearly 90 of the agents taking the quantification felt more professional felt more competent in their job and more than 50 more than half of the homeowners surveyed said they felt the standards in the Prime Minister had improved, so the qualification alone is not a thing but at least it would allow a minimum entry requirement and then that qualification, the training that the professional bodies must continue to interact with as we discuss local authorities, compensation schemes and the government to push things forward in the future, but I think what I hope consumers will do. starting to see owners and tenants more information on real estate portals there has been a project yes yes about material information, which is the technical term according to the legislation that the agent must provide to the consumer, so now they are playing that role in terms of ensure that when the tenant, the owner goes to that property, the home buyers and sellers, as well as all the information, is in one place, so we're starting, you know, cornering, cornering, um, we're kind of getting there there, it feels like it's in a state of flux and there's a lot of uncertainty around, there's good talent, there's bad turns there.

There are good and bad owners, but there are no good or bad agents, the bad ones are a minority, although yes, they make the loudest noise. Yeah, I guess at the end of the day, everyone needs to take care of themselves and get things done. appropriately by understanding your responsibilities, but there are many people who interact with the leasing and rental process. I think, therefore, if it's buying a rental property, the lenders have a role to play in terms of the survey and the ownership standards of the building the landlord, you know, has the responsibility to ensure that that property is fit to rent if you are interacting with an agent, the agent then has the responsibility to guide you, know you and manage you on an ongoing basis, but the tenant, as we have discussed, has an important role to raise issues, have good communication , understand your rights and responsibilities and then the local authorities and everyone is pushing in the same direction, everyone but the tenant wants a nice place to live and is happy to pay rent, that's why the landlord wants a good tenant who will collect rent , provide the property in a decent state, but it is up to everyone involved to do their part.

I think that's a very good summary, yes. I also received some comments from some renters, of course, and one of them wrote: It makes no sense to say that fewer rental properties is a disaster. If landlords build those houses, they don't disappear into thin air, they become available for renters to buy, rent should cost more. than a mortgage or why banks offered to buy to allow mortgages for people who wanted to get rich without doing anything. Any ideas on that? I mean, it's a fair point, houses don't disappear into thin air. Well, I think the first point is. that we shouldn't think of the real estate market as just a real estate market, it's made up of different markets and some markets around the country, so depending on where you rent, there may be less or more demand, but certainly the feedback we've received from agents in most places across the country is that there are between 50 and 100 applicants when properties in cities come up for rent, so I think we need to be cautious that there needs to be supply because we are seeing that they are in progress. uh lawsuit, I think the debate about whether that property can be purchased by tenants I think is legitimate and that will probably happen, but again, in the cost of living situation, people that you know are still going to have to pay those ongoing costs. when they bought the property and have the deposit to buy in the first place, that's what I was going to say, chances are that the person who would like to buy that property is currently a tenant with rising rents and therefore , you will struggle to save the deposit, but it's not just the deposit you have, you need to be in the financial position to qualify for a residential mortgage and many people don't want the responsibility of owning a home or you know, moving.

Working on contract or something like that in private rental is very attractive because the owner is responsible for all repairs and maintenance, which can be quite important. You know, if one boiler fails and needs to be replaced, you're talking about maybe two. Three and a half thousand pounds in some cases, so people want to rent and have many reasons to do so, they don't necessarily want to buy, so there is always this flow of properties coming in and out of the market and I can't understand why. People might think that if a landlord sells they give someone else the opportunity to buy, but there are plenty of properties to buy anyway and tenants, and many tenants, still prefer to stay in the private rented sector, so Listen, it's always a pleasure to talk to you two, it's such a hot debate and it's really very important to have right now, so thank you both for joining, much appreciated, thank you, thank you, foreigner.