Madonna Nightline Interview December 3, 1990

This is ABC News Nightline hosted by the president of Allstate and the governors stated that better education for America is controversial, but it's also certainly popular. Madonna's first four albums sold 48 million copies and Forbes magazine calls her the highest-earning female artist this year. Madonna joins us from Los Angeles, am I right in assuming that if an artist wants an album or record to be very popular, she needs it to be aired or does she generally need it to be aired on MTV? Well, it is a very important marketing tool for an artist, yes. Am I to assume then that you went through the ordinary process like saying that, with MTV in mind, you put together your video and simply submitted it to their standards committee thinking it would get the clearance it always does?

Yeah, I did good, you know? unreleased, your record company knows that MTV prohibits nudity, they won't allow it. I'm not so sure about that because when I did my Vogue video there is a photo of me where you can wear a see-through dress and you can clearly see my breasts now they told me they wanted me to take it off but I said no and they played it off anyway so I thought that once again I was going to be able to bend the rules a little well, you were certainly breaking the rules a lot more than in the past or did you feel that you were within the limits that you had been um I guess half of me thought I was going to get away with it and that I was going to be able to convince them and the other half thought, well, no, you know, with the wave of censorship, you know, in the conservatism that is sweeping the entire nation, I thought I was going to There was going to be a problem, well, when you say you thought you should get your way, am I right?

Have you gone a little further with each of the videos you've tried? Have you tried some new things, if only to experiment for your own reasons, well I think that's what art is about, experimenting is an expression, it's my artistic expression and for me a video is the cinematic expression of the song, ya you know, an image that describes what this song is about and You have to listen to the lyrics of this song. You know it's about a woman who talks to her lover and she says: Tell me your dreams, am I in them? Tell me your fears, are you afraid?

Tell me your stories. I'm not afraid. who you are and just so you know we're dealing with sexual families, weird fantasies and being upfront and honest with our partner, you know, these feelings exist and I'm just dealing with the truth here in my video, let me tell you why I asked. Because there are a lot of people in the industry who have said, Look, this is one of the best personal marketing people in the business, we've never seen anything like this and she knows how to push herself to that limit and this was a win. win for you if they play the video you will get that kind of game and if they don't you would still win some money it was all in a sense a kind of publicity stunt well it may seem like it was a publicity stunt and actually I was very lucky but I must say that I was not planning to sell this video.

I just walked in to record it and said, you know what? I'm not going to think about whether it will play or not. I'm going to no, I'm just going to do it, this is how I really feel about these songs, it's how I want to express myself and when we gave them to MTV, you know, we asked them if they would play them. They came back a little later and said no. I said, is there one scene or another that you're specifically opposed to? and they said no, it's the full shade, so we didn't even have a chance to try to make it visible.

They didn't reject it completely and then I had to think, you know, with my manager, you know what we should do next and we decided he'll know, let's sell it, let's sell it as a video single, you've never done that. before and you know the controversy just happened, it wasn't planned, but in the end you actually end up making even more money than you would have, yeah, how lucky I am, but the question that I think a lot of people are worried about is you. You go into the studio and you want to illustrate this song and you do it the way you want, but they see a kind of trend where you are pushing the boundaries of sexuality, in this case you have nudity and you have bisexuality and apparently you have group sex and they are Thinking maybe your sorry, what do you think you're saying?

I'm pushing the boundaries of sexuality, no, you're pushing the boundaries of what's allowed. Okay, you're taking it a little bit. further and further away and I guess what people ask then is where is that line, where do you finally say, well, this is enough, that's a good question, but then I would like to address the whole issue of censorship on television, where We draw the line. in general I mean you can go so far, yes, first you have to tell me where you draw the line, well, okay, I draw the line in terms of what I think can be seen on television.

I draw the line at violence, humiliation and degradation. Okay, and I don't think any of these issues are evident in my video, that's where I draw the line, that's what I don't want to see, well I guess then one woman's art is another woman's pornography. I'm thinking express yourself video I mean, there's footage of you chained up, there's footage of you crawling under a table and there's a lot of people who are upset about that, okay, I've changed although, okay, no, there wasn't a guy who put that up. . chaining myself I did it myself I was chained to my desires I crawled under my own table you know there wasn't a man standing there making me do it I do everything of my own free will I'm in charge okay degrade that's when someone else forces you to do something against your wishes, so, hey, I understand that it's the expression of sexuality, as long as it's two consenting adults of any form of sexuality, it's okay on television, well, then I would like, first, I would like say: don I don't believe in censorship of any kind, but I would like to say that I believe in labels and whatever I would like, I would believe in some type of warning label, you know, or some type of label that tells adults, you already know.

After a certain time, we can play these types of videos with adult themes, but hey, I've already dealt with sexuality, but I also think we should have categories for other topics that I think are not necessarily good. for 10 year olds to watch, okay, I mean, I think MTV should have their violence hour and I think they should have their degradation of women hour and then we could have an hour where we deal with adult sexual themes. , but you know, if we are going to have censorship, let's not be hypocritical with this, let's not have double standards.

Know? I mean, why is it okay for 10 year olds to see someone's body being torn apart or Sam Kinison spitting on Jessica Hahn? Are we going to address these problems? Why is it okay? Why don't parents have a problem with that and why do they have a problem with two adults? You know, two consenting adults who show affection for each other regardless of their gender, but Madonna, I raised about thirty important questions and I think we should address them when we clean up, let me have a few minutes. Well, we'll come right back after we pay some bills and explore those questions in a moment. being facetious a moment ago you said that despite your concerns about violence and degradation towards women, maybe MTV should consider having an hour for violence in an hour that shows degradation towards women even though it is broadcast directly to people's homes where their children could see it well.

I'm saying we already have these videos showing degradation towards women and violence playing 24 hours a day, but they still don't want to play a video that's about sex between two consenting adults, so I'm saying you know. why where do we draw the line why is this why is this good for a ten year old to see and why why is this like this and I guess I was being sarcastic you know say look give me a chance you know let me ask me to give me a label of warning to warn parents not to be taken by surprise so that they have the opportunity to keep their children away from television, but also to warn them about violence and to warn them about scenes and videos that depict degradation. to women, but you know how difficult it is for a parent to control the child having access to the television and sitting there and watching MTV all day, would you do it if you were in that position as a parent and it was your 10th year?

If you're 11 years old, wouldn't you be worried about them seeing this kind of thing? Well, personally, I wouldn't worry, and that's why I think sexuality is something that Americans would rather just sweep under the rug and I think if my video sparks open discussion, you know, maybe kids will go and ask them these questions to their parents, you know, if it sparks an open discussion about sex with their parents, I think this is a really good thing, oh my gosh, you have to do it. help me here when a 10 year old boy sees you chained to the bed or sees your boyfriend tied up and another woman walks up while you're there maybe you don't know it, you know that's a fantasy and you know other people are. able to deal with all types of sexuality, but a 10 year old is going to get horribly confused here, so let them get confused and let them go ask their parents about it and let their partner, you know, explain to them what it is a sexual fantasy and that these things exist in life like if they see violence okay it exists in life it's not necessarily a pretty picture you know it's a scary thing but it's a reality why are we willing to deal with it? with the realities of violence and sexism and why not?

We're willing to deal with sexuality, why I mean the networks don't even put ads on TV that talk about condoms, contraceptives, safe sex practices. We're pretending there aren't many teens having sex in the world. right now why are we? Do you know why we are subjecting ourselves to this kind of ignorant gaze? I'll tell you what their answer is going to be for you they're going to tell you you know what really worries us about these issues and we're really worried about our children understanding that, but frankly it's our job to instruct our children and we don't want you to be on television the same way it is on television giving those images to our children.

Thanks anyway, I guess. which they are not doing their job because teen pregnancies in this country have reached the highest level, I mean we have high school sophomores or already having their second baby well and the rate of AIDS is increasing in the community heterosexual at a really scary rate, okay, so why aren't these parents doing their job? You know, there's the question. I mean, I guess this is what you're trying to tell me about that, that you're balancing an artist's need for self-expression. and artists need to explore any kind of subject matter and that certainly includes sexuality and the responsibility that comes with the kind of prominence that you have and the fact that you are a role model for people and I guess you have to struggle with that.

Don't you understand the fact that I'm a role model? You have to struggle with that, well, there is a responsibility that comes along with your position. It's okay, you know how I feel, I'm behaving in a very responsible way. I say I have a responsibility as a mainstream artist, whatever it is, I feel like I'm being responsible because I'm here, like I said at the beginning of the

interview

, I'm talking about some, the video shows people being honest with each other about their sexuality. They are not alienating anyone, they are not degrading anyone, it is about honesty, it is about celebrating sex, there is nothing wrong with that, that's fine, and my response is my responsibility and I am also very responsible because I deal a lot with the sexuality.

In my shows and in my music, you know, I promote safe sex whenever I can. I put literature in my albums about contraceptives and condom use. I'm responsible, but my point really goes back to that other question and I'm not suggesting that No, I'm just saying that you have to ask yourself or not, when you go into the studio or when you put on your show, you want to be able to explore these kinds of things because that's what art is, but at the same time, you have to reflect on who is going to be responsible, so do you say where do I draw the line or does it keep going further and further?

But, as I told you before, I am responsible, you know where I draw. the line is what I said, I don't believe in gratuitous violence and I don't believe in degradation, you know the degradation of any human being, okay, and I would never promote those things in any of my work, you've taken it. I know that, yes, you can, you'd like the opportunity to talk about it on behalf of some women who feel like maybe you're not expressing the values ​​that they want feminism to express in the first place. A long time ago, when you wore the belt buckle that said boy-toy in the material girl video that you feel reflects the old values ​​of women, even if it was satirical to express yourself, do you have a response for feminists and feminists who did they raise? those types of questions well I would like to point out that they are missing a couple of things because you know I might be missingdressing like the typical fool whatever but I'm in charge you know I'm in charge of my fantasies I put them on you myself in these situations with men you know and everyone knows what you know in terms of my image in the public people don't think on me as a person who is not in charge of my career or my life, isn't that what feminism is about?

Do you know the equality between men and women? And I'm not in charge of my life doing the things I want to do? Making my own decisions. I don't think anyone questions whether you're in charge of your own life. I have one last question for what is the next kind of thing we could expect? Do you already have it in mind? What are you talking about? Do you want me to promote one of my products? No, no, no, I mean products that push buttons, no, no, that's not the point, the point is that if you are, you will continue to explore sexuality the way you have it, you will try to take it a little further than a way that I, well, I don't know, I can't predict what.

I'm going to feel artistically, I don't think anyone can, but it's a very important topic for me and I'm sure I'll address it more in the future. I have no doubts about it. He was kind to talk to you. us tonight Madonna thank you very much, thank you very much for listening to me, when we return we will see some of the latest stories from the history that we have been following during these weeks, the Persian.