Talk to Al Jazeera - Peter Dutton: Behind Australia's tough border policies

The small Pacific island nations of Papua New Guinea and Naru are home to what some call Australia's offshore prisons for refugees; They house around 1,500 asylum seekers who were detained after entering Australian waters without visas, many of them have been stuck living in limbo for three years, both prisons are run in secret, out of reach of the media and NGOs like Amnesty International, so what happens inside these prisons are Australia's Guantanamo Bay or a necessary deterrent that helps save refugee lives and allows Australia to run a generous program of orderly refugee resettlement. this week Australian Immigration Minister Peter Dutton speaks to Technol Jazeera Minister thank you very much for speaking to Al Jazeera was delivered thank you Human Rights Watch has called Australia's approach to asylum seekers abusive Amnesty International has said that parts Australia's asylum seeker regime is inhumane Last year, countries queued up to voice their concerns at the United Nations Forum about what Australia was doing when it came to refugees and asylum seekers.

Are they all wrong? Australia needs to do a better job of explaining exactly how much assistance we are providing as a first world country, along with the United States and Canada, we are the most generous provider of refugee and humanitarian program places in the world. Now there are many countries that don't provide any places at all and we want to make sure that we can have an orderly migration program, so we provide millions, hundreds of millions of dollars every year in assistance to people to help them, whether it's Indonesia , for example, at regional processing centers in the country, until such time as they can establish their claim as refugees or if it has been discovered that we are not refugees to return home.

We were right about that. You're

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ing about the UNHCR resettlement program and that Australia offers places, but when it comes to people independently heading to Australia by boat, none of them. They are allowed to stay and what is done to those people is what Amnesty Human Rights Watch worries about in other countries. Well, again, I think it's better for people to focus not on the emotions but on the facts of what we're dealing with, so for example, 50,000 people came in eight hundred boats, so under the previous government and 1,200 people drowned in the sea. 1,200, as far as we know, since the beginning of operations.

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s we have been able to provide a humane environment. ER for people to settle in regional processing centers. obviously carried out by the Nauru government and case and ruin in PNG by the PNG government we provide assistance to those processes but at the same time the dividend of the success of stopping boats and, most importantly, stopping drownings at sea is that we have been able to offer a record number of places under the humanitarian refugee program with respect, you are not necessarily saving lives, you may be saving lives in the Indian Ocean on the routes to Australia, but people are still making desperate journeys, still They travel far around the world and they are dying in the Bay of Bengal in the Mediterranean under the trucks between Calais and the UK, they are still dying, that is not dying in Australia's backyard, well it is difficult for Australia, of course, take responsibility for what is happening in the Mediterranean. just taking the problem elsewhere, well, we are dealing with the problem at a regional level and the idea that Australia can solve problems that have existed for decades and hundreds of years in terms of regular movements of people across

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s, is a nonsense, so from our perspective, we need to work with our close neighbors, including Indonesia, a people, you are right, who in some cases have flown thousands of kilometers from the Middle East to get on ships leaving Indonesia or Sri Lanka, for example, and we don't want to.

If that were the case, we don't want people to travel those long distances and, as I say, Australia, along with Canada and the United States, we are ranked in the top three countries in the world in terms of the number of places we offer to people. seeking refuge and if those numbers are still 18,000, in a few years they will increase or a little more, those numbers are still quite small, there are chameleon refugees who are currently compared in Lebanon to two million in Turkey when they are said to be relatively swarming who are you comparing us to I am comparing you to other countries there are many more refugees Turkey Lebanon there are not many settled in the UK or Canada you better get excited and stop you have to do with the facts here, not the emotion, we are

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ing of people who are settled permanently, that's the Australian program, so people who are moving to Turkey or Lebanon for example, are moving to the Ziya tree, those people are not there permanently now, as the UN rightly points out. there are 65 million forcibly displaced people, there are six and a half million people in Syria alone, now the idea that even if Australia increased our numbers to, as you say, 18,000, which puts us in the top three in the world If you increase that 280,000, there are still many countries around the world that do not accept people permanently and Australia is certainly accepting many more countries than the countries you point out permanently and it is you if Australia recognizes it as a space.

Even rich people don't look at Australia, this vast continent of a country, and wonder why Australia can't be more generous in what is commonly accepted as the worst refugee crisis the world has ever seen, this is a great country. , there is space and there is money to resettle more what there is in Europe as well and in the Middle East and in the countries where their sovereign nations make decisions about who comes to their country and the support they provide. I can't speak for them, I can't. I don't explain to you why some countries make the decision not to allow anyone to settle permanently in their country, that is an issue for others to talk about, but in terms of Australia's position, we are one of the most generous benefactors in the world. we are the largest provider of aid to refugees in Indonesia we do not want to see women and children drowning at sea we do not want to see a disorderly program and that is why we have made the decision that we will accept record numbers in In addition to the 18,750 that you point out, we are now accepting 12,000 Syrians again, which puts us near the top of the list and there is no country that you can point to that is doing more than Australia, outside of potentially the United States and Canada.

And in per capita terms, can I destroy it as a world leader? Can I resort to operations? Sovereign borders, as you call them, the return of the ships, we hope to do so, what happened last year, Al Jazeera films, banknotes, US dollars. banknotes that the captain of the people smuggling boat in Indonesia told us and told the Indonesian police that Australian officials had given him at sea to return his boat is not that Australia bribes people smugglers is not that Australia actually runs its own people smuggling operation well its work, I'm aware of the media reports and as I said at the time I wouldn't make any public comment in relation to it and I wouldn't know it but the point in the that would do so are more media reports. although I want to say that the crew of that ship are now in prison and the judge in that trial said during the trial that it was established that the Australian customs officials gave money to you, therefore you made a profit and therefore Therefore, he will go to prison.

Well, as a son, I'm just making a comment regarding some media speculation. What I want to point out is that under Operation Sovereign Borders we have stopped drownings at sea and we have been able to bring in people their age. in record numbers and I think that's something that Australia should be proud of and I think the rest of the world should be aware because we provide, as I say, a country like Indonesia with the most money to support its refugee population. We have contributed more than $200 million to the Syrian crisis since 2011. We are committed to contributing another quarter of a trillion dollars in the coming years, so we are providing significant support both financially and in terms of the number of places we we settle.

Last year around this time I was in Paris with the UN high commissioner and he said at that meeting that Canada, along with Australia, offered the best settlement arrangements for people under the humanitarian and refugee program and again I think that That's something Australia is very proud of. But let's talk again about those people who tried to reach Australia when they do not reach Australian soil on Christmas Island or when they do and are brought by their officials to the island where they are or were very quickly. deported to Papua New Guinea or Nauru to what you call regional processing centers, they really are prisons, right?

They have locked people up or I know they are more open now, but certainly for most of the time that those About 2,000 people They have been detained, they are in light and quite bad prison conditions, moreover, all at the behest of Australia. No, what you are trying to say is that people want to come to Australia now under the Convention and the protocol. The agreement is for people who bring a case of persecution or claim to have been persecuted or are fleeing a particular situation, they cannot have sought refuge in a country like PNG, for example, or Nauru, and then make the decision that they want to come to Australia. or Canada or don't try to rabbit hole in Australia, sure, but their claim was that they were being persecuted, if that's the claim they're making, their claim is that they're being persecuted and they're fleeing from a particular homeland or country wherever that may be. .

It may be that now under the convention people cannot compare prices to choose the country they want to go to. People do want to come to Australia. Millions, tens of millions of people would come to Australia tomorrow because we are a very generous nation. We provide significant support and, as the UN points out in terms of the support we provided to refugees when they came to Australia along with Canada, we do best in the world so that Canada does not send people to another country to process their applications there. These are people who have sought refuge in Australia and you have said you are unlucky, it is going to be squeezed or in Papua New Guinea, we certainly live in quite horrible conditions, in the meantime we are fine again.

I dispute it, but the point is that What I would say is that we bring people in in record numbers, but we do it by air and we provide all kinds of assistance around English language teaching, cultural integration education, housing and everything. That, again, is the refugees who are readjusting through UNHCR. and they're not the ones I'm talking about and, as you point out, I mean we do it in record numbers, almost more than any other country in the world, so that's the dividend of having a controlled migration program. There are many studies that have been done here, for example the Scanlon Foundation, which is a very credible look at the way Australians support the migration programme.

Australians support record numbers of people coming through the migration program and humanitarian program when governments properly control the process. I don't want to give up our process and the right to decide who comes to our country to people smugglers because, As Andrea rightly points out, the human traffickers who took money from innocent men, women and children couldn't care less if those people land somewhere or if they go to the bottom of the ocean and this government is not going to be a party to that. Those sent to Manus Island in Papua New Guinea or to Nauru, particularly Nauru, have been a number.

In both places, except Nauru, specifically here, there have been reports of abuse that have been reported by asylum seekers sheltering in that prison. Most reports in the Australian Parliament's own report say the abuse had probably gone unreported. The amnesty report has said similar things in 2000. Nauru files written by staff there about allegations made and some of minors, but some are quite serious include sexual assault includes self-harm include accusations that guards would give longer showers to people if the guards could see them showering these are kids these are pretty bad things, are you sure they've been properly investigated because you've been pretty dismissive of those things in the past?

No, at this point the third accusation is too much and none of us would ever tolerate it, and it's more that we know and probably more, but again I want to say that you are contradicting the previous point that you made because of the 2107 that you refer to, whichThere's been a period since 2013 or so, the reality is that yes, we inherited a huge mess where large numbers of people have been sent to regional processing centers and we haven't seen any arrivals in over two years, so We are not going to increase that number and we are helping people to return, but this is the important point that you What I am making in the previous statement is that there are many such cases, for example where a mother has disciplined her child. , which is one of 2,000 reports, so a child going to the beach and touching a sea urchin and getting a rash as a result is included now, as I point out, but as far as we know, it is not a conviction in relation to any of those accusations, not one and with the best will in the world, even if you are saying a number. are minors maybe many are not all of them are incredibly minor not all of them can be made up and the fact that Naru and the authorities haven't investigated enough to come up with any convictions and frankly that doesn't seem like much of an investigative process either Some of those we have spoken to who have worked in those centers say. accusations are made and then what will happen to Andrew again is forgotten.

All I would say is that we're better off sticking to facts rather than emotions, and a lot of people in this space are very emotional because they don't want anything else. other outcome other than coming to Australia and we have been very clear that if people try to come illegally by boat, they will not settle in Australia and that is the continuing position of this government and there are a lot of people, as you say in There are quite a few of them and you have spoken to many of them who never agree and will never agree with that policy, but that policy is not going to change it will bring the people in the humanitarian and refugee program through the right way.

Provide support to Nauru to investigate any matter and you write to them and there are some claims that have been made where people have withdrawn complaints which they have not been able to substantiate or even provide a description of the other complaints which are against the same guards. They are not, no they are not, so please detail them for me. We've had it good, an allegation that a firearm allegation yes, these are all accusations. I accept it, but I don't know what I don't see. A proper investigation into these allegations, well certainly not one that has resulted in a gala conviction again, if we could stick to the facts, I asked one about a sewer guard who saw a guard threatening to kill a book to kill a child.

It is true that that is an accusation, but that is a guard threatening to kill a child another guard who laughed at a girl who sewed her lips an act of self-harmony laughter here is the accusation everything unacceptable is if they are true if they are true I only know if they are true Well, this is happening out of sight as far as Australians are concerned, the pain of the people who are present in this Centre, which well, again, I just take issue with some of the emotions involved in the accusations and in the questions, I think if we stick to the facts.

There are accusations that are made on some of those occasions people have withdrawn or not enough evidence has been presented for prosecutions to begin and in other cases a full investigation has been conducted and no charges have been substantiated against an individual now there are accusations against people inside the center who have attacked other detainees inside the center and that is the vast majority of similar accusations that you are talking about, but the headline of 2100 is said in some way to exaggerate the situation, as I say, the vast majority of cases where there has been discipline of a child by the mother or father where there may have been a domestic dispute between the husband and wife within the facility, now taking into account that on Nauru and Manus no one is detained there is a center open people receive three meals a day we have spent 26 million dollars on the hospital in Nauru 11 million dollars on the medical center children are picked up on the bus every day to go to school in Aruba 19 kilometers squares Manus Island I have been there on earth.

I noticed since April that the facilities have become a little more open but they are very far from any city, it's not that people can come and go easily, it's a long way away but and that building has high wires it has high fences it has borders and guards regular guards this is like a gift even if you call it an open facility so there are hundreds of people who have decided to return to their home country because it was discovered that I am not owed protection it has been determined that they are not refugees and It is understandable that they want a better life for them they want to come to a country like Australia and start a new life no one can spare that, but As we pointed out before, there are 65 million people around the world who would look to do that, so Australia and many other countries, as we are seeing in Europe, must have an orderly migration program because, if we do not, we will see the consequences of the A young child washes up, but on the Mediterranean coast it is horrible and the same goes for the 1200 people who drowned here and we are not going to let that happen in our region, so we will work to support regional processing centers.

People must be treated. humanely and they are people who should be treated with human dignity keeping people locked up in limbo for over three years welcome because the mental anguish they are going through is pretty horrible but Andrew let me ask you the question I mean if you have someone who has been found not to be owed protection is not a refugee and we have offered them support a package to return home and re-establish their life, the minority of people do not allow those people to accept the package and stay and come to Australia of course there will be other people who will follow if they are refugees, well let those refugees flee persecution.

Yes, the definition of people flees persecution. In many cases, they found refuge in countries such as Nauru and PNG. who are signatories to the convention, but ultimately want to come to Australia because we have a very generous education system, a health system, a social welfare system, the best in the world. In the meantime, are you worried about children taking antipsychotic medications because you've been there? for so long one of the workers, one of the teachers that we spoke to when Davis with the tape told us that he had been informed that he was not allowed to spend more than four weeks as a worker working at the Roo because he would not be good. for their mental health now that they are a worker there who knows they can return to Australia whenever they want if it is bad for a worker's mental health in four weeks, then what can become of the children who are there for three years and obviously ? there is a rotation system for people to come and go, people fly in and out, terms of medical workers or staff on the island.

I mean, it would be normal practice for any company to bring their staff in and out. He was specifically told that this was the case. about that, his mental health is dealing with difficult situations and people plead his case every day to him or others. You can understand why that would be difficult because I don't want to see children anywhere, but you know, loving home, I don't want them. I want to see, I only mean by numbers, not by names. Would you just read letters and then numbers don't actually sound like they're dehumanizing? Well, let me finish because I mean in terms of the support that we provide in some of the classrooms.

Nauru, for example, I have been in some of the classrooms where there are electronic whiteboards, overhead projectors, small class sizes, we hire Australian education providers to offer curricula and programs to those children at a very high level, we provide, as I said before , support through medical assistance. We provide support through language training We provide significant support, so it is interesting to note that you may not have realized that there are over 350 people on our route who are employed in local laboratories, local companies or in jobs. There are now 35 for example who have started their own businesses there and there are many, honey, I can't see any of this, why is it prohibited to go to Naru in many areas and effectively from Manus Island?

Well, there was a channel 9 on Nauru recently in Australia, we were on a series. We've been trying like Al Jazeera and other media organizations have been trying for three years pretty consistently. A few months ago we received an email saying that all the media requests I cite are being rejected. All media requests are being denied. A carefully selected program was allowed. Access restricted to Naru, a single journalist, when newspapers are also allowed entry, always, right? It does not appear that an open center amnesty has not been allowed. It looks pretty good again in Denmark. The delegation of Danish parliamentarians was banned earlier.

This, but again. now Roo does not dictate nor does any other country dictate to me who has U visas to come to this country and similarly in Nauru and P&G or New Zealand or elsewhere the Australian government does not issue visas for people to travel now that there are more people In addition to the two that you point out in the media who have been in Nauru over the years and well, I was there myself when the Australian government helped us go and film the camp as it was then and established, but since his government he has been in I think that the two meter organizations have been in those three years, it is not much and that is not for one to try, but if this is a question, it is a question with respect, I mean, This is a question for the Naaru government because As I say, I am not dictated to in terms of who, as Australian Immigration Minister, I ask for visas.

It's not that you are in a client state. $1.2 billion has been spent on those two centers in those two countries. You're not serious about it. that Australia, if the Australian government asked Naruto to open his centers more, Naru would not listen, the topic is narrow. I want to return to another point that you just mentioned a second ago and that was in relation to the international scrutiny of your or organizations such as the United Nations or the Red Cross that visit Nauru regularly. I think it's important to point out and I also say that there is a lot of publicity and a lot of misinformation because ultimately what people want to do is undermine the process that we have because they don't believe in a strong border protection policy.

Now there are two ways of approaching this in the modern era, one that we are seeing operating in Europe and other parts of the world at the moment, which is a failed process in Australia, we have been able to secure our borders, we are an island nation, so so we have an advantage over landlocked countries, and at the same time we have a

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policy to maintain our borders. To stop children drowning at sea and to get people out of detention, we can bring in a record number of people and I think that needs to be recognized and surely recognized by someone whose goal, as you know, as you say, as a country Sovereign, if as a sovereign country you decided to accept New Zealand's offer to resettle some of the refugees in New Zealand, would you be happy with that?

Well, it's a problem between Nauru and Zealand, so I wouldn't have any objection. I put a compromise between that, no, but Let me make this very important qualification because we have had people smugglers who have tried to send boats across the top of Australia to New Zealand before. Let me make this very important point that people, if they have tried to come by boat, no matter where they are based, in any third country, Musil N'Dour, somewhere else, they will not come to Australia at any time and we have been very clear about this because I am not going to give up the achievements we have obtained. we have stopped drownings at sea, we have bought record numbers of refugees, we offer better settlement opportunities in almost any other country in the world and we are not going to allow human traffickers in our region to regain control of this situation and see men For example, I am being displaced on foot by people.

I'm on a plane and I'm going somewhere like Jakarta. Economic refugees would seek to displace another person, allowing material to be held in what some have called Australia's Guantanamo Bay. They are a human shield. They are the price. you have to pay for these

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, is it just bad luck for them that they ended up there and have to languish there now again and frankly I think you are deliberately or not trying to tarnish Australia's reputation when there is unwarranted weeds? No, my words give encouragement. Australia's Guantanamo Bay is something, but if you go straight to destroy, they say fine and a pediatrician who worked in the room also respectfully lets it get hurt if you're going to repeatthat kind of emotional.

Climed asks him to back them up. I mean, on what basis do you tell that client that this is effectively a detention center for people who are practically controlled? Their destinies are controlled by Australia and yet they are in another country where Australia has power. but not responsibilities, how does this compare to the images you are trying to conjure up in the minds of the unbridled MoBay people? I mean, I think it's an outrageous suggestion to be perfectly frank and ask people to consider facts as opposed to emotion and some misinformation Minister, one last question, where does this end?

No one has been transferred to Narula Papa New Guinea since 2014, but they are still stuck there, when do those prisons, those refugee camps, those regional processing centers operate, whatever the language? When do they close? You have said that the men's asylum will close, but until you say when and how that doesn't mean much, let me be very clear, we are interested in working with people to send them back to their country. of origin, but help them settle in a third country and now we are in talks with third countries, but with this we are not going to enter into the bilateral or multilateral discussions that we are having, but the point is very clear that we are We are not going to allow to get human traffickers back into business, so what you quite rightly point out is: do you know how this ends?

It does not end, in fact it begins again. problem if we allow our newcomers and we will continue to work with our global partners in an effort to provide significant aid as Australia does to provide a record number of places under the humanitarian and refugee program, but we will do it in an orderly manner so that people do not die and we do not displace the people who need it most. Minister, thank you very much, thank you Al Jazeera, it is a pleasure, thank you very much.