[WATCH] I Said Nigeria Was Dead When I Heard About Abiola's Death - Prof Wole Soyinka

people at different times have

said

that there has never been a time

when

Nigerians have been so divided along various lines as now and we have been trying to find an explanation and then perhaps recommend how these lines could be bloodier for Nigerians to continue We live together as one and that has brought us here, Abelcuta, to meet with the first Nobel Prize winner from West Africa, Professor Gales Inca. Thank you very much for kindly giving us your time in this interview. Let's start with you. He is on record as having

said

that the president was a born-again Democrat at what point exactly did he start to have a change of heart you know

when

we look back at his pronouncements and his positions before the 2015 general election at what point exactly did he start to witness you know things that made him they force you to change your Keep in mind that you know where it is now I can date it, I can time it exactly is when the depredations and massacres of the Benue people began by and probably by the um Fulani herdsmen and for a long time I have not held back sentence that said: wait one minute, they could be blindfolded, they could be Boko Haram, etcetera, etcetera, and then simple Allah opened his mouth not only to acknowledge his responsibility but to threaten a state within this conglomerate that we call Nigeria to threaten the government of that stage. more murders for exercising their constitutional rights to defend their own people and the president went there after a long time, a position went there and said: "Oh, you should learn to live together as neighbors", that is the definition that for me Personally it was the decisive moment and from that moment I started to see bad behavior, he is in action, etc., etc. and, as I've said in previous interviews, including a long one with the go-ahead on db, I actually begged the ruling party not to feel them in the next election, I said, please look. a new candidate and we will even try it with someone credible, we will even try it around, I met the leaders of the APC, the ruling party, I said this man is not good for Nigeria, okay, that was my turning point, that is the end .

Right now you just mentioned bandits and Boko Haram in one sentence without really having a separation of what is what and who is who. Are you part of the Nigerian people who have difficulty knowing whether it is Boko Haram or bandits carrying out some of these acts that threaten the peace of the country recently the governor of Niger State openly lamented and shouted that his state is almost slipping away from him out of hand and because of what is happening in Niger, these bandits cited in court are very close to the seat of power in Abuja.

Do you have that difficulty in separating Boko Haram and the bandits? no longer no longer I haven't talked a lot even with the security people here it's not the first time I hate to refer to this all the time but Unfortunately, I think I should keep reminding people that I actually had a long meeting with the late director of the national security advisor Azazi before he died, a long discussion and that both the security, not only the civil section, not even me, even the security at the beginning had problems in identifying distinguishing between boko haram and the bandits and the Polish evildoer like that that we all go through this situation, this confusion, that is no longer the case, the security agencies of this nation, the governors, many of the politicians know which is which, some of them know who they do not pay bribes, appeasement money to.

Shagumi knows the difference when he goes to the bush, he knows if he encounters bandits, boko haram or herdsmen and then he goes out and makes proposals to the nation, so I don't think that difficulty exists anymore. Well you just mentioned Che Gumi, he has been in the news for interacting with bandits and coming out to make recommendations, as you said, part of the recommendations he made recently is that the bandit governors deserve amnesty just like the Niger Delta militants. that they are granting amnesty, what is your evaluation? of their efforts so far to try to put out what is turning out to be, you know, a big flame in that part of the country, you see those who are still trying to equate what is happening in certain parts of the country that we are uh associated with bandits, those who try to quit equate it with, say, secessionist efforts, some of which included violence which we condemn and which I personally condemned, but those who place them on the same level I think are not honest people, it is so different it is like say evans the kidnapper who kept his prisoners in lagos or uh i forgot how old is a revolutionary or is he fighting for the interests of any group of people beyond him, bandits are violent armed robbers, they are slave takers, we .

We go back to the era of slavery, I mean, that's pretty clear, Boko Haram says it's motivated by some religious impulse, they don't disguise it, they have their flag, you see, where they plant that black flag, it's Boko Haram and they say that They are doing the work. of God they are liars of course they are hypocrites and blasphemers but at least they know it and do not hesitate to accept what they are doing and declare their intention to Islamize the entire world if they cannot is to change the same There are those who have used the camouflage of the religion of many ways.

I have written about zamfara, for example, zamfara was busy mining gold and taking it outside, but using one of the governors when he was there using camouflage for the destruction of religion. to say that he wants to impose a religion, a Sharia situation that isolates, separates the sexes, etc., this is all the destruction and everything has gone to waste, so we also know that section, we know the criminality of some governors, so Similarly, the bandits have decided to kidnap human beings by killing some even by drinking the blood of some. Some of their worst sadistic killers admitted to me that they say, oh yeah, we drink their blood for more energy and they are the ones who indiscriminately collect ransoms from anyone they can. nap anyway who will put the buses public transport, etc., etc., we know them all, the security people know them all, so for Sheikh Gurumi or any politician, those who now equate, it does not matter, even if We condemn methods that equate the secessionist emotions that place them. at the same level as kidnappers who demand ransom for money, indiscriminate victims, etc., they are not honest people and they are not photographs, they are not even human sometimes I think it's okay, before we leave this terrain we find ourselves in now.

Not long ago, the southern governors met and banned open grazing, which caused much controversy between them and some other sections of the country. The situation everywhere around this region, of which perhaps you have your own story and can tell about the invasion of cattle on your premises, had been of concern to many now with that controversy where do you think the power of the governors to determine what happens around them and secondly, the rights of the Fulani who are chiefs and migrate from one place to another would not be right? infringed by such restrictions imposed by the governors now we come to a very big and actually very simple issue if you drive let's say you go to ibadah from here from abercrombie and take the shortcut through ogiri I don't know what The situation is like this because now they are doing some work, but just before rejoining, uh Atugiri, rejoining the highway, if you look to the right side, in fact, I wanted to go back and take a photograph, if you look to the right side, you will see between the human dwellings you like to see a coral section that contains cattle no one has ever quarreled with the ranches there the cattle live in perfect friendship with the people the shepherds the breeders bring food to the cattle now that is a miniature ranch that has been there I don't know how long but nobody argues with that I want to use a railway analogy it's a good opportunity in fact uh don't let me forget this I want to go back to the a post on Sunday, this Sunday, I think Sunday Guardian, which pitted Governor Adamu against uh Bashari, the senator , you know, on this issue, in which each side stated its position on the legality and constitutionality of the governors' action, but let's leave constitutionalism behind. alone for a moment and just talk about natural justice companies etc., we need to settle this street once and for all so that we can drop the issue and attend to corrective actions because it seems to me that we are constantly being pressured by careless statements. review the things that have been said over and over again, so let's take the railway, the railway, uh, which is a very great vision from the way I've had conversations with the minister and I can see how they really want how this government , uh buhari. in particular I want to open the nation to railroads facilitate communication promote commerce and therefore business opening the country is a magnificent vision and I hope it will be achieved but in the process of achieving it the federal government just didn't say, you know, put a surveyor there put it together, drew a straight line, you know, to have the easiest and most obvious, you know, as the crow flies, the straight line bulldozers his way and says we'll take over this property if you talk to the minister and those. involved in the railroad tell you that the most difficult and most expensive part of building that railroad is negotiating with the owners with the owner of the house the companies the farms take care of them that's what a democracy is about it's difficult it's more arduous but eventually you have the people behind you because you have taken them with you and you have not infringed on their rights now the true path serves all whether you are a waterfall or you are a farmer you are a pig farmer you are a textile person, it serves all, so this is an initiative that benefits the entire Nigerian nation, regardless of who, what makes cattle follow the roots of cattle, why should it be any different?

How can you sit on asura and say someone is working with cattle? business and therefore has the right to make a path through this place that I paid for and that I built and developed on my own and the authorities have told us time and time again that because the constitution does not grant the president such rights and However, after the governors have taken a position on this and the people have been screaming, he goes on the air and says that he has instructed his attorney general to dig up more colonial-era food decrees and that he is going to resurrect those roots and the The newspapers just a few days ago cited again that about four roots have been discovered around something and they have already been resurrected.

That is why I say that Abu Harry is proving that he has evolved from being a quote-unquote born-again democrat to being a born-again, autocratic Fulani and it cannot happen when the government acts as the other center, it is effectively declaring war to the Nigerian people and I do not think that Buhari wants to go down in history for having started some version of civil conflict simply because he wants to be more Fulani than the Nigerian president of this nation, we are barely two years away from the next general elections and it seems that the heat you are gradually keeping momentum and as it comes with it, a more divided entity called Nigeria, what measures would you recommend?

Clear steps he recommends to the government to ensure that the elections are held and that Nigeria remains an entity. My answer is very drastic. It requires selfless sacrifice. It requires even the abandonment of the will to self-sacrifice. abandonment of certain powers uh, right now the mistrust is at such a level that I find that the only solution before the next elections is for Buhari to rise above himself and say: "Okay, I want a government of national unity for the period prior to the elections." I want to govern with people of different, you know, different persuasions, just to see that it is possible to have a neutral phase in the life of a nation that is non-partisan and to ensure that everything that arises, whether from the constitution or from the whatever it is done with the consensus of the whole world at many levels and again I say this very carefully at many levels, this buhari led government has failed this nation, which is a great shame, a great shame because also There are so many brilliant people in his cabinet, so he has to make up his mind to do it. the point where you listen more, where you examine things a little more closely, the box stops at your desk if you stop depending on this kind of mysterious cabal that is so hell-bent on bringing together all the zones of authority that create policy, even interstate catering services. gathering this in their own hands for their own purpose and unfortunately buhari seems to serve them the arrowhead he has to abandon that position I am bringing others to the last round a kind of national unity government whatever you already know lose now on June 12 It has become the day of democracy in Nigeria on 19, 2018.

It was not pronounced by anyone other than that same President Buhari. President Oluseguo Bassanjo, who is from this state, was president for eight years. No other president from the south was president for five years. good luck jonathan, he didn't do it,It was necessary for Buhari to make June 12 the day of democracy in Nigeria, what is your reaction to this first? Well, if I want to be uncharitable, he would say that the elections were coming up and he wanted to rule out some palliatives here. and there but even I'm willing even I'm willing and of course he wanted uh um he wanted a thumb he knows about a predecessor who we won't name uh but now let me I'm ready to grant the possibility that he was too motivated by genuine democratic principles because I studied as I do, I did not study even those who are at the top of the government, not even those who are in a position, you know who is looking for that position and I studied it very carefully and, therefore Of course, no, I didn't see him on a day-to-day basis, those around him, I give my opinion on how he responded to the events that had occurred.

It's been happening to him since he tasted the other side of power. Knows?. Remember he was locked up for quite some time. He suffered the humiliation that you and I suffer every day. They threw tear gas at him. they were like and it's possible to see that this is someone who had been reflecting maybe during this period of isolation detention loss of power humiliation reflecting on things for me, I'm sure both jonathan and obasanjo regretted not being able to give that day and Therefore, it is up to Nigerians because it was a unique election, it is an exceptional election recognized by the whole world, it was something to be proud of, so why didn't they commercialize, why didn't they let Nigerians celebrate the minus that achievement, so if people like it? whether or not buhari, he has credit for that, okay, let me take you back to that day, July 7, 1998, when um mk

abiola

was declared

dead

, where were you at the time the announcement was made and what was your first reaction?

Oh my God, immediately. The reaction was that Nigeria was

dead

, I said Nigeria. I remember a lot where he was. I don't remember traveling much during that period and I remember I was the reason I'm a little confused because, again, we had received information. outside, by the way, I have written about an attempt and you must prepare for that dawn to receive the information that we made an attempt on his life and I took this step of obtaining an audience with Kofi Annan, who was the secretary general of the UN. he begged him to please intervene as quickly as possible to see

abiola

in prison in fact he was in kofi and was on his way to

nigeria

at that time he assured me that he would see him and i told him that i had to do something quickly because we received inside information who had always been reliable throughout uh abacha's time.

We had our in-house experts, in fact, some of them who we are grateful to be alive today because they assigned us a lot of things and that's how it was when I received this information. I sought an audience with Kofi Annan, we met in Europe and he assured me that he would come there, so when the news finally came, that's why I find it so difficult to determine where he was because he was still out of the country, but my instinct was Nigeria. he is dead he deserves to be dead he deserves to be erased from the surface of the earth and just completely forgotten so i felt good even after his

death

would you think that mkhitaryan left a legacy in

nigeria

n politics and history and if he Do you think so, what are they? those who can remember you know quickly all I have to do is contrast it with what buhari is today the difference is clear abiola united this nation buhari has been dividing this nation by his actions and lack of actions as I said are critical moves abiola It impacted every corner of this nation.

Not only do I not like using the word tribalism, but it rose above ethnic loyalties. He rose above religion. That is very critical. He rose above religion. It was given to the Muslims. It was given to Christians. To the animists, he treated his political opponents and supporters equally as human beings and fellow Nigerians. I interacted very closely with him, as you probably remember, and who knows, maybe it's good for us in some ways, although I hate that language about his life being short because he. he died on a very high note, a note that no leader had achieved since, any aspect just name it now I want to choose your opinion, what do you see of Nigeria?

Would you recommend that there are different demands for secession that you can't? identify with it or recommend it, but what would you see in Nigeria? A deliberate effort to stay together or a deliberate effort to find different ways to relax, even if we have yet to relate in some way. What is your clear position on this matter? Obviously, it's a preference. lose but somehow continue to relate together I mean, it could be sentimental all I demand is that people stop considering it the original sin that someone says, let's separate is the most natural thing under certain circumstances it is a natural tendency that should Just not I want to hear more.

I'll continue here, so I'll help you out anyway, but I hate hearing the non-negotiable thing. What is it that we are human beings? We exist through negotiations and the terms of our relationship are always open. to negotiations when you say it is not negotiable, the same Nigerians are only half a head in relation to other peoples around the world, people have always negotiated the terms of their stay together and when those negotiations fail, the most civilized among them always They have said how long should it take us to go through the separation process? Can we do it without actually hurting the humanity we have sworn and whose well-being we are chosen to defend and improve wherever in the world you go, you always will? find secession movements amalgam movements twist just got over its own episode and it's not complete yet it's not over yet wills of Ireland all of them from time to time find reasons why they think humanity and this is the problem is it real? property that makes up the nation or is it humanity, I mean the expression of abuse, let nations die so that humanity survives if that's what it takes, yes nations die, but you can't say you worship real estate , you know that you consider them so sacrosanct that you cannot break it reshape it according to the needs of humanity along the lines of the development of humanity, you know, what is never humanity is never static, I do not accept it, but I am always willing to defend the positive aspects of staying together, we discuss it as an objective pragmatic issue, not as a type of theology that really degrades the human intellect, it is a great way to end this and we greatly appreciate your time, Professor Wellesha Inca, it is a great privilege, to have this time with you, thank you very much.

You're welcome and to those who

watch

ed, we thank you for doing it, let's do it again. Thanks so much for looking.